Talk:Bowling Green massacre/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Could Kellyanne Conway be reffering to the Soylent Green Massacre in Charton Heston's Movie

hatting per WP:NOTFORUM
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
If not this simple mistake, please add a note to Kellyanne's page that she is a compulsive liar. 203.131.210.82 (talk) 04:31, 3 February 2017 (UTC) it is either incompetence or malice. either way Trump needs to fire her ass. 16:46, 3 February 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:828E:C800:80EF:8618:417:F0C0 (talk)

Really?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Is there really a consensus that this one misstatement deserves a whole article of its own? IMO this one-day news story is a sideshow to Alternative facts and should become a redirect to that article, where it is already mentioned. I'm not instituting a formal merge request at this point because I want to see other people have to say. --MelanieN (talk) 16:35, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

it Is getting a fair amount of attention. what i find interesting is that we dont have a category yet for "fictitious events", or even "lies". trumps team may be responsible for us having to create a category for alternative facts. Im not being snarky, there seems to be a missing category. is this lies, propaganda, misstatements, or all all of these too subjective/POV to have categories for them? is "controveries" enough?Mercurywoodrose (talk) 16:39, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

There is a big difference between "lies" or "fictitious events" and something taken out of context or confused with another event. A new list of this kind would have to accompany each politician and would look partisan and ridiculous. Controversies is for controversies of which this is not. No there was no Bowling Green Massacre. Yes there was an Bowling Green Massacre plot that was foiled and caused then Pres. Obama to tighten the refugee vetting process. Brainplay (talk) 17:24, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

No, there was no plot - foiled or otherwise - to commit any kind of terrorist attack in Bowling Green or anywhere else in the United States. Look at what the two were sentenced for: "Defendants Attempted to Ship Weapons and Money from U.S. to Iraqi Insurgents; Defendants Admitted to Extensive Terrorist Activities Against U.S. Soldiers in Iraq", "using improvised explosive devices (IEDs) against U.S. soldiers in Iraq and who attempted to send weapons and money to Al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) for the purpose of killing U.S. soldiers", "These two former Iraqi insurgents participated in terrorist activities overseas and attempted to continue providing material support to terrorists while they lived here in the United States." "These are experienced terrorists who willingly and enthusiastically participated in what they believed were insurgent support operations designed to harm American soldiers in Iraq."[1] By perpetuating this "massacre" myth, you yourself are a part of the problem of the spread of "Alternative facts". --MelanieN (talk) 17:34, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, at first I was saying the exact same thing - delete, WP:RECENTISM. But then I started digging down, and you realize Rand Paul alluded to it. Peter King alluded to it. And there's something more here that deserves to be contextualized and examined. -- Fuzheado | Talk 16:41, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm leaning towards the now-standard WP:TRUMPSCANDALAFD for this. Not every misstatement, whether it was intended to deceive or not intended to deceive, deserves its own article. I don't even think a redirect or merger to alternative facts is needed at this time. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:27, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

lol, did you mean to say "non-standard", or is WP:TRUMPSCANDALAFD supposed to be a thing? As I write this, that link is dead, but your meaning is clear from context. Not every Trump scandal deserves its own article, in short? Juansmith (talk) 17:33, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I was making a joke that we'll eventually have an essay on it, because after every Trump scandal, we tend to have a new article that ends up in an AfD or merger discussion with varying results as to what happens. My larger point though is that while I appreciate that this is a big deal today Wikipedia is not the news and the previous references to this plot that Fuzheado mentions didn't use this exact phrasing, so I don't think they really should be included here as they were different than the phrasing used by Conway. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:37, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

OK, you've convinced me that there is a need for a Merge Request. After all, I want to be part of that essay! 0;-D --MelanieN (talk) 17:46, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

"Is there really a consensus that this one misstatement ..." actually, Conway made the false assertion on at least three occasions, plus Rand Paul and Peter King made comparable false statements. This is definitely not just "one misstatement", it would appear to be a pattern of outright lying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.68.134.1 (talk) 20:43, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

It's been decided, in the merge request below, that this should be an article. I originally launched the merge request but I have changed my mind as the story has grown. I'm going to close this section. --MelanieN (talk) 20:47, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 February 2017

In the CONTEXT section of the article

Change: 2011 arrest of two Iraqi nationals for terrorism in Bowling Green, Kentucky

To: 2011 arrest in Bowling Green, Kentucky of two Iraqi nationals for terrorism

Reason: The misplaced modifier makes it appear that the terrorism was in Bowling Green -- precisely the fantasy that Conway made up. The arrest was in Bowling Green. There was no terrorism there or elsewhere. Jacitron (talk) 17:36, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

 Done TonyBallioni (talk) 17:42, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

verb tense

"Neither of the two were ever charged..." should be "Neither of the two was ever charged..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cabrochu (talk • contribs) 18:20, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 February 2017

Hello, I just read your Wikipedia article of the Bowling Green Massacre mentioned by Kellyanne Conway. Since you are defining her comments as fake, I would like to see a list of other articles that you have posted regarding fake news by the major News Networks and Publications as well as any fake news accounts from political party members, both republican and democrat. I think if you want to be taken seriously and not viewed as simply a political hack for either party, you would have articles on both. I look forward to your response. (IP contact information redacted) 198.73.26.212 (talk) 18:44, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

This is not a specific request for this article. Marking section as answered, and making no changes to the article based on this request. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:02, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I've redacted the IPs contact info for their privacy. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:07, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:25, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

INCORRECT INCORRECT ASSERTION

"Conway did not correct herself on the incorrect assertion that President Obama instituted a six-month ban on the Iraq refugee program."

President Obama did have a 6 month ban on the Iraq refugee program. Source 2011 - http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaeda-kentucky-us-dozens-terrorists-country-refugees/story?id=20931131

 "As a result of the Kentucky case, the State Department stopped processing Iraq refugees for six months in 2011, federal officials told ABC News – even for many who had heroically helped U.S. forces as interpreters and intelligence assets. One Iraqi who had aided American troops was assassinated before his refugee application could be processed, because of the immigration delays, two U.S. officials said. In 2011, fewer than 10,000 Iraqis were resettled as refugees in the U.S., half the number from the year before, State Department statistics show." 

I'll repeat, this article from 2011 says "the State Department stopped processing Iraq refugees for six months in 2011". Articles from 2017 have white washed that action and call it a "delay" or "slow down". If you delay something for six months, its stopped for 6 months. Go back to 2011 to get the story devoid of 2017 white wash and spin. Furthermore the entire sentence is inflammatory and in no way relates to the Bowling Green. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.21.196.68 (talk) 19:32, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I'd disagree with the above, insofar as a ban and ceasing work are not the same thing. If a refugee submitted an application during the relevant months in 2011, it might well have been accepted (though obviously it would have been basically stagnant), whereas under the current ban, and indeed, I should think, any ban, such an application would be immediately denied or turned away. Just the difference I see. Thank you. Dumuzid (talk) 19:54, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

There was clearly not a ban; the article says that "In 2011, fewer than 10,000 Iraqis were resettled as refugees in the U.S.". That's still thousands of refugees from Iraq who DID come here. --MelanieN (talk) 19:55, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

The article states that this amount is half the previous year's. And the policy change was for six months, which is half a year. So these numbers are consistent with a six-month ban, rather than "clearly not a ban." Actual entry by refugees never dropped to zero, because the pause in the program affected applicants rather than entrants. --DavidK93 (talk) 08:28, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

• I agree with MelanieN: ABC news link indicates that some action was taken, but it appears that it was related to the application process, rather than the program as a whole. There is a recent article stating this explicitly here (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/no-barack-obama-jimmy-carter-9717520), saying that Obama "Paused approvals of refugee applications from Iraq for a period of six months". http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/01/30/sorry-mr-president-the-obama-administration-did-nothing-similar-to-your-immigration-ban/ states that there was not a single month in which no refugees entered the USA from Iraq. Mnjuckes (talk) 19:07, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Mistype correction

Someone please correct "missles".

190.151.147.69 (talk) 22:34, 3 February 2017 (UTC)Daniel Osvaldo Roqueta

 Done TonyBallioni (talk) 22:36, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Lead

Are there any actual events upon which the Conway quote was based? If so, they should be included in the lead. Without them, I honestly don't know what happened after reading the article and am left with the impression that there might possibly have actually been a massacre. In short, the lead is long on people's reactions to a summary of the alleged event without allowing the reader to come to any conclusions about anything that did or did not happen at Bowling Green.Carl Wivagg (talk) 13:18, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

  --Looking through the talk section, I see that two people were arrested for terrorism and that is somehow related to Bowling Green. This should be concisely stated in the lead.Carl Wivagg (talk) 13:22, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Regarding the recent edit diff, I believe that this statement summarises the reactions:

• The incident promoted widespread reactions, echoing those directed at Conway's statement on "alternative facts" in the wake of the inauguration of Donald Trump.

Note that it does not say that the "massacre" was an alternative fact, but that the reactions were similar (i.e. I did not want to say "prompted widespread ridicule" :-) ). Feedback?

The other edit was to introduce a section break, since the lead appears too long for a short article like this.

K.e.coffman (talk) 01:21, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

I think that wording works. I would suggest citing one of the sources Neutrality posted above in the merge discussion. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:18, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Iraqi Terrorist Attack Since 2003?

The sentence: "No Iraqi person has carried out a deadly attack within the U.S. since the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003."

No Iraqi committed a terrorist attack within the US ever, as far as I know. There were no terrorist attacks by Iraqi in the US in 2003. The source (NPR) is just saying they have not committed a terrorist attack against us even though the US invaded their country in 2003.

99.156.160.153 (talk) 02:46, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

That's very true. But the source said "since 2003" so that is what we are stuck with. Also: no-one from Syria, no-one from any of the seven countries in the ban, has ever attacked us on US soil. "Nationals of the seven countries singled out by Trump have killed zero people in terrorist attacks on U.S. soil between 1975 and 2015."[2] What would be good to point out (but we probably can't) is that immigrants or visitors from four other countries - Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Egypt, and Lebanon- carried out the 9/11 attacks, and none of those countries is on the ban list. There is no connection between actual threat and the list of targeted countries. --MelanieN (talk) 02:58, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, if a source states it (and I am pretty sure there are), we can. But probably not on this article. ansh666 05:31, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm the one that added that source. I thought it was weird phrasing too since I'm not sure what 2003 had to do with anything. Would be interesting to find out more, but I haven't turned up anything relevant (yet). Also, MelanieN, I agree it would be super to add that information (about Saudi Arabia, etc) to the article, but agree with Ansh666 that it's probably not related. However, that info is included in Executive Order 13769, so at least it's acknowledged in context on Wiki. Megalibrarygirl (talk) 18:35, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

The emphasis on sourcing at Wikipedia produces misleading information here. Although it does not explicitly say so, the phrase suggests that there have been terrorist attacks by Iraqis in the U.S. before 2003. Bever (talk) 07:40, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

That's a problem, and adding "since the Iraq war" only helped a little. Maybe we should just delete the sentence? --MelanieN (talk) 08:49, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

I have deleted the sentence. We agree it is confusing, and attempts to clarify it have not really helped. The basic problem is "since 2003", which is from the source, and which does carry the unavoidable implication that there might have been attacks by Iraqis before 2003. --MelanieN (talk) 16:50, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Photo for 'Reaction' section

Hatting per NOTFORUM. Apologize for my own participation in same. --MelanieN (talk) 22:56, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
A touching photo for this horrible tragedy. Please consider its inclusion: https://mobile.twitter.com/aravosis/status/827752877384953856 Fftc6dtvugbjhn (talk) 21:50, 4 February 2017 (UTC) If that was a free image then indeed we could use it, but that's unclear.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:28, 5 February 2017 (UTC) We wouldn't use it anyhow. This is just for laughs. (Personally I preferred one I saw online somewhere called "Memorial plaque to the victims of the Bowling Green massacre" - it showed a blank brass plaque.) --MelanieN (talk) 00:55, 5 February 2017 (UTC) (laughing) Good stuff! Really humorous. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 05:00, 5 February 2017 (UTC) You may as well use it, since the existence of articles like these now propagated across Wikipedia by folks with a clear agenda has, IMO, damaged this encyclopedia's reputation. Might as well call it the DNCyclopedia at some point. All of these should be on Kellyanne Conway's page, and warrant little more than a couple sentences. Wikipedia now creates an article for every late-night television joke and analysis by a cable news pundit. --Bigeyedbeansfromvenus (talk) 07:47, 5 February 2017 (UTC) The aftermath of the massacre. I agree. It is very funny, but not very professional. epicgenius (talk) 22:50, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Link to Bowling Green page

Where the actual city of Bowling Green, Kentucky, is cited, there should be a link to the existing Wikipedia page: WP;Bowling_Green,_Kentucky.13:22, 5 February 2017 (UTC)Mnjuckes (talk)

 Done -- The Anome (talk) 14:00, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Article creation policy

Two questions: (1) Why does Wikipedia have an article on an event that never occured, whereas on ongoing event, the Global jihad, remains a disambiguation page? (2) Was this article created simply as an attack piece on a living person? Nobs01 (talk) 19:07, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

(1) The gaffe was reported worldwide and has notability. The article is about Kellyanne Conway's widely reported error, not the nonexistent event itself, which is not notable because nothing happened. (2) No. epicgenius (talk) 22:44, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

It looks like little more than fake news, then. Nobs01 (talk) 00:09, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

It is fake news, since the massacre never happened. (The news about Conway's statement, however, is real.) epicgenius (talk) 00:35, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

The report is certainly not "fake news", which means deliberately false reports spread with intent to deceive. Nobody has suggested that Conway did that - that she knowingly talked about something she knew was imaginary, hoping that people would believe it. On the contrary, I think she thought it was true - maybe she had been influenced by the earlier references by a couple of congressman to (nonexistent) attempted bombings there. The FACT that she said it, and that it touched of a huge reaction, is the real news and is what this article is about. --MelanieN (talk) 00:59, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

The "massacre" is a cultural phenomenon at this point, with plenty of coverage. That's what the article is about. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:01, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

And I agree that the gaffe is notable, and that the typo is real news. But saying that this previously-unknown "massacre" happened is news to the rest of the world (who didn't know that a massacre happened, if it ever did) and it's fake (which means that it never happened, so thus, "fake" "news"). epicgenius (talk) 02:35, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Ok, so fake news gets a mainspace title but the Global jihad, which is real, is ignored. Oy vey. Nobs01 (talk) 02:50, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

To be fair, the page on global jihad is several articles, which is why it's a disambiguation. (Jihadism, Offensive jihad, Pan-Islamism, or Worldwide Caliphate.) Jihadism may be what you're looking for. epicgenius (talk) 04:25, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 February 2017

"from certain Muslim countries" is not an impartial statement and should be removed/replaced 2601:2C3:4000:BC60:BDDF:DD0F:BF25:99C9 (talk) 16:01, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

The sources seem to prefer the descriptor "muslim-majority" countries; would this allay your concerns? Dumuzid (talk) 16:21, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

 Done by me. I rephrased to "from seven Muslim-majority countries". epicgenius (talk) 16:31, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

@epicgenius I think it would be the most objective to not include any reference to the religion the subject countries. 16:42, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

It appears to me that the reliable sources think it worthwhile mentioning religion, and so we should as well. Thanks. Dumuzid (talk) 16:44, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

What it mustn't do is simply state "Muslim majority countries". The seven specifically listed are a very arbitrary list and exclude the most populous and most Muslim majority countries. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:54, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I think the current wording of "seven Muslim-majority countries" works. Do you disagree? Dumuzid (talk) 18:05, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

"Seven Muslim-majority countries" is fine. Its neutral. Its true, and most importantly its what the reliable secondary sources are saying. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:12, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

"Seven Islamic republics" is most descriptive. Nobs01 (talk) 06:24, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Are we really in the business of changing what the reliable sources say, based on the opinions of individual editors? WP:OR Exemplo347 (talk) 08:51, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

The seven countries are, allegedly, identified in the Executive order (https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/02/01/2017-02281/protecting-the-nation-from-foreign-terrorist-entry-into-the-united-states ) .. though I couldn't find any explicit reference to them in the text (are they identified implictly through a reference to another document?). The link to religion, if any, is through Trump's claim that the order is fulfilling a campaign pledge to "ban muslims". It may be better to explain this association. I'm afraid I can't suggest any text because I haven't been able to find a primary source for the names of the seven countries. Mnjuckes (talk) 09:08, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Rand Paul "Previous Reference"

The "previous reference" to the incident from Rand Paul is currently phrased as follows:

• Several days before the Conway interview, on January 31, Kentucky senator Rand Paul referenced a similarly unsubstantiated terrorist incident in an interview with MSNBC, when he referred to "the attempted bombing in Bowling Green, Kentucky, where I live"[[3]][[4]]

Having read the information in the references, I believe it would be more neutral and more informative to rewrite it as follows:

• Several days before the Conway interview, on January 31, Kentucky senator Rand Paul mentioned the 2011 case in an interview with MSNBC, referring to it as "the attempted bombing in Bowling Green, Kentucky, where I live". The Washington Post Fact Checker noted that Paul "is on more solid ground than Conway" because the Iraqi nationals did discuss bombing an Army target in the United States.[[5]][[6]]

The Washington post source explicitly states that Paul was talking about the 2011 case and that his statement was not inaccurate in the way that Conway's was; stating only that Paul talked about "a similarly unsubstantiated terrorist incident" seems to obscure both aspects of the information as presented in the source.

I know this article has a lot of attention right now, so I wanted to seek consensus here rather than make changes without taking that step. --DavidK93 (talk) 18:47, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

You make a good point about Rand Paul. For one thing, many sources are clipping his comment, so that they report he said "the attempted bombing in Bowling Green, where I live." But that is seriously misleading. What he actually said was "the possibility or the attempted bombing in Bowling Green, where I live." I have edited the article to add "possibility" which makes his statement a lot more defensible. I am considering how to get rid of "unsubstantiated". I think I will use a variation of your suggested wording. --MelanieN (talk) 22:02, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for bringing this up. --MelanieN (talk) 22:09, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Bowling Green massacre

As of this posting, this section is already linked above. However, there is a Did You Know nomination ongoing. If you feel you have contributed a substantial amount to the article, please reply there. You can check your editing stats here. Thanks. epicgenius (talk) 20:54, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Note that substantial doesn't necessarily mean many edits or lots of content added. It means that you contributed in a substantial way to the current state of the article. Participation in an RfC would be below the bar, but substantial participation on the talk page crafting language that eventually appeared in the text may qualify. If interested and in doubt, ask me to take a look at your contributions. (But don't worry about this all too much, honestly. Some people like collecting credits but it's not a huge deal!) ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 21:02, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Point

Two of KellyAnnes quotes early in the article make the false point that...."(they) came here to this country, were radicalized‍—‌and they were....?" Truth is--its the other way round. They were radicalized elsewhere and then came to America. I realize the mis-statement is contained in her quote and it may be difficult to get around explaining that her quote contains a falsity. But, our reader should not be left with the false impression that they were trained in the States which I was left with until I read some of the sources. Buster Seven Talk 21:43, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Good point. I'll see what I can do. --MelanieN (talk) 23:39, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

There, is that better? --MelanieN (talk) 23:57, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, TY. I see an other editor has edited the caption for the image. Its kind of like removing a footnote because it gives too much information. O well! Buster Seven Talk 02:36, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Fictional?

I believe a more accurate adjective would be "fictitious". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.215.126 (talk) 19:48, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

 Done TonyBallioni (talk) 19:58, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

What about the category, though? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:21, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I've removed it until we can get a consensus here to use it. "Fictional" typically implies literary, so I think the IPs objection still stands. If there is a consensus otherwise I don't have that strong an opinion on it. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:24, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

"Fictitious" doesn't seem right either; there's no proof that anyone made it up intentionally. Maybe "nonexistent"? --Trovatore (talk) 09:30, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Here's a source for "fictitious" - Kellyanne Conway's fictitious 'Bowling Green massacre' not a one-time slip of the tongue Exemplo347 (talk) 08:48, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

"nonexistent" is probably not the best term because the Bowling Green massacre is more like a Unicorn--nonexistent but "real" in myth and stories. AugusteBlanqui (talk) 13:05, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

New Guardian piece on two previous mentions

David Smith (6 February 2017). "Kellyanne Conway's fictitious 'Bowling Green massacre' not a one-time slip of the tongue". The Guardian.

Secondary sourcing on the earlies Cosmo and TMZ pieces, with a link to the TMZ video Andy Dingley (talk) 11:15, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, those have been noted in the piece already, but it does bring up the problem that the Wikipedia article is a tad confused now, chronologically, and could use some reorganization. The "Previous mentions" is only of Rand Paul and Peter King, and does not include Cosmo and TMZ. The latter two are actually in the "Statements by Conway" section, but could easily be overlooked. -- Fuzheado | Talk 14:19, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

CNN sticks its head over the parapet.

CNN contradicts Conway over an appearance booking and publicly tweets this. http://usuncut.com/politics/kellyanne-conway-permanently-banned-cnn/ Andy Dingley (talk) 15:02, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Contested deletions

Apparently, a merger slash delete proposal below has failed, so I'm closing these. epicgenius (talk) 16:27, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Contested deletion 1

This page should not be speedy deleted as pure vandalism or a blatant hoax, because... (your reason here) --50.89.184.18 (talk) 04:20, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Kellyanne Conway did mention the Bowling Green Massacre on MSNBC Hardball, which seems to be a made up event. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-w16cyQ8wQ&feature=youtu.be&t=2m43s

Wikipedia is not a repository for disambiguation of politicians' and pundits' fabrications. This doesn't deserve its own page, add it to [hers|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellyanne_Conway]: Ambiguator (talk) 04:26, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I think this page should stand as is. Any attempt to remove it is an attempt to remove information, knowledge , and I strongly protest Kg08854 (talk) 18:30, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Contested deletion 2

This page should not be speedy deleted as pure vandalism or a blatant hoax, because... It is a notable and timely event, and deleting it under the speedy deletion criteria may render other people unable to fix this article. --24.99.83.187 (talk) 04:34, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

This page does not reference the actual story that is the supposed massacre. Needs editing. Valient6 (talk) 17:52, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

A "notable and timely event?" First off, it's not an "event." Second, it's hardly notable enough to warrant it's own page. People in the political arena misspeak all the time. Do those instances warrant their own special pages? Lastly, it barely qualifies as "timely," and will undoubtedly be forgotten within a month. 71.55.143.121 (talk) 04:37, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Contested deletion 3

This page should not be speedy deleted as pure vandalism or a blatant hoax, because... (your reason here) --74.217.72.250 (talk) 04:35, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

The stated text is accurate. It did NOT happen and people need to know this is BS.

So, do we do that with every erroneous statement someone in politics makes? So perhaps an entire Wikipedia article on "If you like your insurance plan, you can keep it"? That at least has Politifact's "Lie of the Year" bolstering its notability! 71.55.143.121 (talk) 04:41, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Contested deletion 4

This page should not be speedy deleted as pure vandalism or a blatant hoax, because... it is true that the “Bowling Green Massacre” is a fake event created by Kellyanne Conway to justify Donald Trump’s travel ban imposed on seven Muslim-majority countries. Of course, there is no proof that Kellyanne Conway is <redacted per BLP>, so that should be deleted, but the rest is not a hoax and is completely accurate and true. --Nicolás Macri (talk) 04:50, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Contested deletion 5

This page should not be speedy deleted as pure vandalism or a blatant hoax, because... (your reason here) --Goclonefilms (talk) 04:55, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

The article is not a hoax. It notes that the Bowling Green Massacre *is* a hoax, because it never happened. It might be considered vandalism, but it is a reliable and accurate documentation of the massacre exactly as it happened (i.e., it didn't).

What also never happened is anybody claiming that it did happen. She did refer to the "massacre" but the article says she "described it" which she never did. Also she said the next day that she did not mean it and it was a slip of the tongue, which I have experienced on many occasions in reality. Therefore this "news article" should not be on wikipedia as it is making Wikipedia look less reliable. Alen05 (talk) 23:49, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please add a link to the victims fund under aftermath

https://www.bowlinggreenmassacrefund.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.129.44.188 (talk) 19:29, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Cute, but no. --MelanieN (talk) 20:00, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

True, mention is made in the article, which is sufficient. All of the massacre victims recovered anyhow, since there was no such event. What did happen was that one of the Iraqis was an IED bomber, who really did kill US soldiers, some of whom were friends of mine. They're not guests of the federal penal system for terms of 41 years and 39 years, respectively.Wzrd1 (talk) 02:23, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Categories

As mentioned above, I removed the "fictional events" category as being in line with the IPs objection. Looking at the categories further, I'm not sure if either "Hoaxes in the United States" or "Propaganda in the United States" is applicable. Leaning very heavily towards removing hoax because Conway has claimed its a misstatement and never actively tried to perpetuate it. Propaganda is a loaded term, and I couldn't find any reliable sources for it being used here, but am unsure if they are out there. I suggest removing it as well unless some can be found. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:31, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I think "Fictional events" is the perfect category for this and IMO it should be restored. I don't agree with "hoaxes" (which would be deliberate and persisted in) or "propaganda" which is too strong a term for this minor kerfuffle. --MelanieN (talk) 23:59, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

My only issue with Category:Fictional events is that with the exception of Pole shift hypothesis they all look to be literary or plot events, and I think pole-shift hypothesis might should be removed. I think Trump administration controversies covers this for now. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Tony on all counts here; this is not really fictional (and the article is really about the very real controversy around the statement). Pole shift hypothesis, though often a feature of sci-fi plots, is an article about a theorized future event, so it doesn't really belong there either. And I think I just set a record for "real usage density in a sentence" or something. ansh666 05:28, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

I've went ahead and removed them since there seems to be agreement that that hoax or propaganda isn't right. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:37, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Somehow, I suspect that we'll need an entirely new category for things that this administration is coming up with. Disinformation, alternative facts, steam piles of dingo kidneys... More seriously, perhaps disinformation in the United States might become a valid category.Wzrd1 (talk) 02:25, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Cosmo

Conway mentioned a "Bowling Green massacre" in interviews with Cosmo days before her interview with MSNBC. Cosmo didn't use the fake news in what they published, but they're publishing it now. So, should this be included in a strict chronological way (Cosmo before MSNBC) or chronological to us (MSNBC before Cosmo)? – Muboshgu (talk) 17:22, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I think MSNBC before Cosmo, so I'll add it now, but I'm open to feedback. Oh it's already there now. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:32, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I've already added it below to "Previous references" but we may want to move it up. -- Fuzheado | Talk 17:33, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Yeah you beat me to it by a matter of minutes :) I added the full quote, which displays its many inaccuracies (they didn't go back to the Middle East, she claimed "soldiers" died in the massacre). Maybe it should be expanded upon, maybe it's fine there. Not sure. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:51, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Conway's comments are tough to discern. It's hard to make sense of them to make it quotable. -- Fuzheado | Talk 18:26, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

While I agree that we can't discern a whole lot from the comments, it seems clear that the quote on MSNBC was not, as Ms. Conway has indicated, a case of misspeaking, but rather that she misapprehended the situation entirely. How we use that to improve the article is certainly less clear. Dumuzid (talk) 18:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

There's also now this, from The Daily Beast:[7]. Again, interesting, but I am not yet clear on how we fit it all together. Thanks. Dumuzid (talk) 18:32, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I think the specific level of inaccuracy is important to document. She mentioned soldiers dying to TMZ as well. The repeated nature of the lie shows it was not a simple misspeak. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:38, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Wow, this changes the whole thrust of the article. As more media come forward, we will probably have to rethink how we handle this new information. Maybe put it in the "initial misstatement" section and change its title? In fact we may very soon (after more coverage and analysis comes out) have to put it in the lede. It is now very clear this was not a "mistake" as she claims; it was a carefully prepared and memorized talking point. I wouldn't call it a lie - I think she believed it. Whoever briefed her gave her misinformation; she repeated it numerous times and is being blamed for it. --MelanieN (talk) 18:47, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

How about this: change "Initial misstatement" to "Statements by Conway". Keep what we have, but add a third paragraph: "It was later revealed that she had made virtually identical statements to Cosmo and TMZ prior to her appearance at MSNBC". With brief quotes and the two references. --MelanieN (talk) 18:52, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm going to do that. This is important. --MelanieN (talk) 19:03, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I like your edits. I agree that the Cosmo/TMZ revelations deserve the added weight of being included the way you changed it. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:15, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I also support the mention of the two prior interviews. I have changed the caption for the image. It give credance to the fact that the foolish Bowling Green Massacre claim that KellyAnne repeatedly made was not an "honest mistake". When we first heard the story we all took her at her word and gave her the benefit of the doubt. We all miss-speak at times and make "honest mistakes." The two prior interviews change all the good-will toward her into doubts as to her intention. The Cosmo.com mention of dead soldiers is troubling in that it seems to up the ante. Buster Seven Talk 21:05, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Also concur now that we have three distinct references, and Rand Paul on top of that, it merits mentioning in the lead paragraph in some way. However, the TMZ interview is peculiar in that it does seem clear that she was referring to an attack on soldiers in Iraq, but initiated/linked to Bowling Green in some way. It would be WP:OR to try to draw some conclusion at this point, so we should wait for other sources to do this. -- Fuzheado | Talk 21:39, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

FOLLOWUP: Well we now do have some analysis from the Cosmo reporter, which I added here: [8] -- Fuzheado | Talk 14:21, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

In favor of the truth, soldiers did die at the hands of one of the two Iraqis who were convicted in Bowling Green, long before they came to the United States though. That said, how she could confabulate events in Iraq and non-events in the US is beyond the comprehension of any reliable source that I've seen. I happen to have had buddies who were killed by that IED bomber, which makes this entire event infuriating in the extreme.Wzrd1 (talk) 02:42, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Delete

This was already discussed above with a consensus to keep. If you want to delete this article, you should create an AFD. Otherwise, I'm closing this with no further comment, since we're beating a dead horse here. epicgenius (talk) 18:08, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Create a page of "Kelly Ann Conway-ism" like Bushisms or Obamaisms eg.

Creating a page for every slip of the tongue or misstatement or lie of any administration and their representatives seems to take away from any objectivity or neutrality for Wikipedia.

aaronarnwine 18:04, 3 February 2017 (UTC)aaronarnwine

References

If that phrase comes into general use by Reliable Sources, as Bushisms did, we could consider an article. As far as I know there is no such word out there right now. BTW there is no article "Obamaisms". --MelanieN (talk) 19:59, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree that this should be deleted due to the fact that it is not a fictional even but a slip of tongue. For example Obama once said that the US was training ISIS why is there not an article on this slip of the tongue? Alen05 (talk) 00:10, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Or how about just flat-out lies, like Obama's "If you like your health insurance, you can keep it"? No special article for that despite it being deemed "Lie of the Year" by Politifact. 71.55.143.121 (talk) 04:44, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Delete 2

So here is another attempt of saying that I think this article about a slip of the tongue should be deleted. I am trying not to say anything else this time because it is apparently considered vandalism to say I do not agree with this due to it not being a "fictional event" !but a slip of the tongue as the lady explained the day after it happened. Most probably both this post and my account will now be deleted. Alen05 (talk) 00:08, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

There are plenty of notable "slips of the tongue" - and this is definitely one, it's been internationally reported in reliable sources. Regards Exemplo347 (talk) 00:10, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

So you agree that this is not a fiction event and should therefore be either described as a slip of the tongue or deleted as it is not a real thing. Alen05 (talk) 00:13, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

No. I have no idea how you've come to that conclusion - calm yourself down. This article should not be deleted - the General Notability Guideline has been met in this case. Try not to read between the lines - if I mean something, I come right out and say it. Exemplo347 (talk) 00:19, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

This "slip of the tongue" excuse is not credible - borderline nonsense. As I pointed out above, there is simply no way for a person to intend to say something about a couple of people who were arrested for promoting terrorist activity in Iraq, and have it accidentally come out as "they were the masterminds behind the Bowling Green massacre." That is not a slip of the tongue, not even a slip of the mind. That is an entirely different, novel idea, an invented "massacre", with no relationship to what actually happened. (Besides, the notion that there could be a "massacre" in 21st century America and have the 24-hour news channels not hype it to the max - impossible to believe.) --MelanieN (talk) 00:48, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, hence my Scare Quotes around "slip of the tongue" - it's an extremely high profile fabrication and one that is definitely noteworthy. Exemplo347 (talk) 00:54, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

I dont even believe you guys believe this, Anyway good luck. I've read enough to see What Wikipedia has become now. I've said it a couple of times in the comments that MelanieM deleted, I am a Muslim and I don't agree with What they are saying but these kind of lies and hatred against the Trump administration is What got him in the office and what will help him win again. There is no evidence at all that this is "a high profile fabrication" because its been said once and corrected the next day. The other two guys said something completely different because obviously nobody has a clue What happened in Bowling Green Alen05 (talk) 09:00, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, as much as I am amazed at the luck that led a totally brand-new editor to this talk page for their first edits, I'm not sure you're speaking with a neutral point of view on this. It's covered in reliable sources, it doesn't appear to be an accident and as yet there has been no apology for it - going by the coverage from reliable sources globally, Wikipedia is correct to retain this article in its current form. Articles aren't deleted because their content is embarrassing to the people involved. Regards Exemplo347 (talk) 11:28, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

I have been editing a lot in the Dutch Wikipedia page and wanted to edit or delete this page as I thought it was written by internet trolls. I am very suprised though to see that people think this is actually something that would make it in any respectable encyclopedia. I am indeed not neutral, as a Muslim I am against the ban and I don't like a lot of the things Kellyanne is saying, however I usually prefer a dialogue on a slightly higher level. For example I have tried to provide evidence that the Obama 6 month Iraq indeed never happened, but for Some reason I havent been able to post that response on the other discussion where this is being discussed. I do think it would be reasonable to have an article about the incident that occured in Kentucky and note that several people have made incorrect statements about it, but that does not make it a fictional event. Just like Obama once said the USA is training ISIS, regardless of that being true or not, somebody saying something once and admitting that that was not What he or she meant is not enough to call it a fictional event in my opinion. It would be a different story if she would still claim it occured and wrote a book about it or something, but she her self is saying that it did not occur and that she is aware of that and that she meant something else. Alen05 (talk) 13:13, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Her intentions cannot be proven unless there's a reliable source that can read her mind. It's irrelevant anyway - the fact is, it has been reported in reliable sources (across the world) and therefore it meets the GNG's requirement for Significant coverage in reliable, independent sources. I don't see any benefit in arguing further about this. Exemplo347 (talk) 13:16, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

That is Exactly my point, that there is no prof of het intention to make up a fictional event. There is only proof and coverage of her saying something and correcting herself the next day. There is no proof at all of either one of our points of view, the fact that all these realiable sources are saying she made it up is just poor journalism. Like I said there would be proof of this fictional event if she would Write a book or article about it specifically claiming that this happened. But she is saying that it did not happen and that she made a mistake. There never is a point in arguing with libtards because they obviously cant distinguish fact from fiction. Alen05 (talk) 13:47, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure your choice of language is helping you. If you can prove that the GNG requirements aren't met, then please do so. Exemplo347 (talk) 13:50, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Well if you would be so kind to explain how i can share a link here I wil share Some reliable sources that are saying What everybody knows that she was probably referring to the arrests of two terrorists and not trying to make up a fictional event. Alen05 (talk) 13:53, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

We're going round in circles here. Even if you're right about her intentions, that doesn't matter - what she said has been reported widely enough for Wikipedia's General Notability Guidelines to be met. I don't know why you aren't listening to that simple fact. Exemplo347 (talk) 13:55, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

You can probably also find this yourself if you use Google in the same way I did. Basically What I did was type bowling green and read Some of the articles, while Some are indeed jumping to conclusions about this being a huge conspiracy theory and pretending nothing ever happened there others are less biased and explaining that she probably was referring to those arrests. Its like when Obama said President Modi about Prime Minister Modi, we could say he made up a fictional caracter or when we give it a little more thought we can come to the conclusion that we can not read his mind and know if he was making up this person that does not exist or simply referring to Prime Minister Modi. Alen05 (talk) 13:56, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Because there are just as many reliable sources who have been smart enough to do a little bit of research and get to the conclusion that she did not make up a fictional event but inaccurately reffered to an event that did happen. Alen05 (talk) 13:58, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

I had actually only read about this in Dutch media and assumed that American media were reporting on this by saying she made it up completely but the more I read I see that all of the American news articles so far are also reporting that she probably meant the arrest of those terrorists. Alen05 (talk) 14:01, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

And even the source used for this article (The Guardian) says Kellyanne "misrepresented the events" and did not make it up. The NY times wrote also the following: "Both defendants pleaded guilty to the federal charges, and Mr. Hammadi was sentenced to life in prison, while Mr. Alwan, whose fingerprints were found on an undetonated improvised explosive device in Iraq, was sentenced to 40 years in federal prison, with a life term of supervised release." which means that other guys comment about the planned bombing is also quite accurate. I've purposely used a liberal news source which recently wrote its subscribers that they will try to be more objective and throw in a little bit of truth every now and then. So how much "coverage" do you need as proof that it is not a fictional event but a mistake. Alen05 (talk) 14:11, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Re: jumping to conclusions about this being a huge conspiracy theory and pretending nothing ever happened there It will be impossible to talk to you if you are going to invent stuff like this. Nobody has said this is a conspiracy theory; it was just something stupid that she said and undoubtedly believed at the time. Nobody has claimed "nothing ever happened there"; on the contrary our article explains in detail about the arrest and conviction of two terrorists - neither of whom ever posed the slightest threat to Bowling Green. Everything they did was intended to support attacks on U.S. soldiers in Iraq. I don't know what you mean about "that other guys comment about the planned bombing"; if you mean the claims by Rand Paul and Rep. Peter King that there was a plan to carry out a bombing in Bowling Green, they were mistaken;[9] there was never any such threat; if there had been it would certainly have been included as part of the trial and conviction of the two men. Bottom line, we have quoted her "correction" in the article, we have quoted the people who said "misspoke" or "misrepresented", we have done our Due Diligence to keep the article accurate and neutral. We can't help it if she said something stupid and later gave an unconvincing explanation of what she "really meant". We can't help it if there has been widespread ridicule in reaction. We report what is. --MelanieN (talk) 18:42, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Support Delete or Merge - there isn't a enough encyclopedic material for more than a stub, as such it should be merged to Kellyanne Conway. Most of this article is non-notable trivia. Jonpatterns (talk) 16:32, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Pff; there is patently enough encyclopedic source material. Although CRYSTALBALL, I'd wager that this will become a touch stone for future historical analysis. Misinformation comes not just from lies, but also willful ignorance. Ceoil (talk) 19:31, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

My two cents: It is not clear that this notable enough to merit its own article (there are plenty of less notable articles in WP, though). But I would say calling this matter a "slip of the tongue" is rather dangerously trivializing something that is more serious. If she had said some like "Remember all of the terrorist incidents like 9/11, Orlando, Bowling Green, ..." one might be able to chalk that up to a minor mistake. But the fact that she pulled this one out as a specific example and chastised the media for not covering it demonstrates, if not intentional deception (I doubt that's what it was), at least being seriously irresponsible with checking her facts before trying to make statements as an official representative of the government. That is not a small thing. Regardless of how you feel about it politically, it is historically quite unusual for a White House official to make such an irresponsible statement.

--MC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.131.2.3 (talk) 16:24, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Delete — this is trivial.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:58, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

• Note In the UK press, "Kellyanne Conway's fictitious 'Bowling Green massacre' not a one-time slip of the tongue". Exemplo347 (talk) 08:47, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Delete/merge

Why does this one statement warrant it's very own article? Does Wikipedia do that with every wrong statement or flat-out lie some public person makes? Of course not. For example, despite VERY notably being named "Lie of the Year" by Politifact, Obama's "If you like your health care plan, you can keep it" statement has not warranted it's own article. This statement by Conway is very, very far down the ladder of notability compared to that. Either delete this article or reduce it down considerably and merge it into Conway's article. 71.55.143.121 (talk) 04:53, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

A merge proposal was defeated on 5 February. Maybe in a few weeks, after the fuss has died down, we can have an AfD and get rid of this.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:51, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

I'd be voting Keep at that AfD - if it's notable NOW, it'll still be considered notable in a few weeks because for Wikipedia's purposes, notability isn't temporary. Exemplo347 (talk) 08:23, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

I'd also vote Keep at an AfD for this: it's very clearly notable. Not every mis-statement by a public figure passes the notability threshold, but this one certainly, demonstrably does, as the many citations show. -- The Anome (talk) 09:36, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

No, this will be in the Future, when both of you will have forgotten about it.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:39, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

That seems like a Bad Faith comment to me. Exemplo347 (talk) 10:26, 8 February 2017 (UTC

Note: merged from below. epicgenius (talk) 16:24, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Removal of a sentence

@Epicgenius: When you reworded the lede just now, with the edit summary "rewording", did you really mean to remove the sentence "However, no such massacre ever occurred" from the first paragraph, or was that an accident of editing? I think that sentence should be restored. It is very important to make the point, right at the beginning, that there was no such thing. The word "nonexistent" IMO is not sufficient to get this across; it may be a little too subtle, especially for people whose first language is not English. --MelanieN (talk) 16:31, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

@MelanieN: Oops, I think that was an accident. Thanks for pointing it out. epicgenius (talk) 16:32, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Hatters gonna hat

I don't think that every negative comment about this article needs to be hatted. It's a Mad Hatter's Tea Party.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:47, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

In my books this gets a +1 for wordplay, but a -2 for sentiment. Not that anyone reviews my books. Dumuzid (talk) 20:32, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

I'd actually give it a +2 for wordplay (tea party, anyone?). But in regards to the matter of "every negative comment," it's only the deletion discussions that have been closed, since this has been discussed already and any further discussion of deletion must happen on an AFD. epicgenius (talk) 21:27, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

"Fictitious" vs. "nonexistent"

I've changed the word "fictitious" in the lede to "nonexistent". "Fictitious" implies a deliberate fiction, which is something we can't know unless we were privy to Conway's thought processes. "Nonsexistent" is objective, and I hope uncontroversial. -- The Anome (talk) 19:56, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Sure. I only used "fictitious" because an an IP above has pointed out it was not "fictional" and requested the change. TonyBallioni (talk) 20:06, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

I think that's an improvement, thanks. --MelanieN (talk) 22:53, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

I agreed with you until you said "Conway's thought processes"? Isn't that stretching her capabilities a little far.... 86.215.33.92 (talk) 23:29, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, everyone has a thought process, even those whom... um... seem to do before they think. But yes, to maintain neutral point of view, Conway's "thought process." epicgenius (talk) 00:09, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Nonexistant isn't right, as it implies a noun. Agree that Fictitious is undesirable also, as it implies forethought, rather than BS. Ceoil (talk) 01:10, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

@The Anome: I just noticed this ... "Nonsexistent" is objective, and I hope uncontroversial. "Nonsexistent" is objective? Uncontroversial? Maybe not so much. 0;-D --MelanieN (talk) 01:21, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I'd hope that the vast majority of even firm Trump supporters would agree that there wasn't an actual massacre. The nonexistence of this is clear-cut enough that it is actually capable of being proven factually. -- The Anome (talk) 08:28, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

@The Anome: Did you not notice that you spelled it nonSEXistent? That's what I was teasing you about. Sorry I wasn't clearer. Attempted humor is so tricky online. --MelanieN (talk) 16:34, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

@MelanieN: Ouch! Thanks for spotting that! -- The Anome (talk) 08:12, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

@The Anome: See also: Pizzagate conspiracy theory and voter fraud. epicgenius (talk) 15:38, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

@Ceoil: Incident is a noun in this sentence. Hollth (talk) 05:49, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

So "nonexistent" was my suggestion (though Anome didn't credit me, so maybe he/she came up with it independently?) but it's still not ideal. "Noun" isn't the problem; as Hollth says, "incident" is a noun. It's just an odd adjective to put with that particular noun.

What incidents do exist? Does your fifth birthday exist? You can certainly take the philosophical position that it does, but it's a strange assertion to make (even a strange question to ask) in ordinary English.

I don't have a better one-word suggestion, though. We want an adjective that, when applied to a putative event, means that said event never happened, but doesn't attribute any particular intent to reporters of said event. It seems like there ought to be such a word in as huge a language as English. But I can't think of one. --Trovatore (talk) 06:13, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

I think "non-existent" is OK, but the opening phrase demonstrates that this article should be non-existent.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:34, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

We have lots of articles on hoaxes. This is not one of them. The statement is very much real. If the article was about the nonexistent event, it would already have been deleted. epicgenius (talk) 18:12, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

This article exists because anything about Trump gets inordinate interest. If it is not about a non-existent event, why does the opening sentence say that it is???--Jack Upland (talk) 20:47, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

The article is not about the non-event. The article is about KellyAnne Conway's referring to it as if it was a real incident...at least 3 times "...referred to by U.S. Counselor to the President Kellyanne Conway in interviews with Cosmopolitan and TMZ on January 29, 2017, and in an interview on the television news program Hardball with Chris Matthews on February 2, 2017. Buster Seven Talk 20:57, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Next there will be an article about Frederick Douglass's non-existent immortality.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:02, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Or an article about Donald Trumps supposed IRS tax audit notification. Buster Seven Talk 21:10, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Or an article about Easy D.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:35, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Hey, that can be Trump's rap name! He can be a hip-hop artist called Easy-D. Also, this comment gets an easy D for corniness. epicgenius (talk) 17:24, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Should we make an Invasion of Korea (Maxine Waters) article?

I think if there's an article for this, we need to make an article for Maxine Water's Invasion of Korea.

2602:301:776C:6530:FC36:2AB:20BE:E7A0 (talk) 02:04, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

I would respectfully disagree. There's more to this article than a mere pronunciation slip between two similar-sounding countries. Dumuzid (talk) 02:15, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

And there's much more to Obama's "If you like your health care plan, you can keep it" than to Conway's misstatement, yet that has not warranted it's own article. 71.55.143.121 (talk) 04:58, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Waters said "Korea" instead of "Crimea". Kellyanne Conway was caught lying to multiple media outlets about a terror attack that didn't exist. – Muboshgu (talk) 05:20, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

What about the liberation of Auschwitz by Obama's uncle?--Jack Upland (talk) 05:21, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Are you seriously claiming that confusing Auschwitz and Buchenwald is in any way comparable to inventing a murder of American soldiers that never happened? The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 18:40, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Muboshgu, that literally doesn't have anything to do with my statement. But since you're concerned about articles covering statement in which people were "caught lying" to lots of people, Obama far and away more notably was caught lying to EVERY SINGLE American about keeping their health care plans, so where's the stand alone article covering that? 71.55.143.121 (talk) 05:28, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Yeah I was really responding to the comment that started this thread. As to Obama's broken promise, that's also very different from deliberate "alternative facts". And the Obama broken promise is covered in articles about Obamacare. – Muboshgu (talk) 06:10, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

No, not different at all. Obama's statement was actual "alternative facts" as opposed to this one misstatement. This whole article is very clearly biased and needs to be deleted. 71.55.143.121 (talk) 17:14, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Notice the hemming and hawing and obfuscating being done to justify this article while dismissing an equal article regarding what someone they support misstated. 71.55.143.121 (talk) 04:40, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Recent changes to the lede

Someone just changed the lede sentence[10] from

The Bowling Green massacre is a nonexistent incident referred to by U.S. Counselor to the President Kellyanne Conway in interviews with Cosmopolitan and TMZ on January 29, 2017, and in an interview on the television news program Hardball with Chris Matthews on February 2, 2017. Conway cited the "massacre" as justification for a travel and immigration ban from seven Muslim-majority countries enacted by United States President Donald Trump. However, no such massacre ever occurred. The incident relates to the arrest of two Iraqi nationals in Bowling Green on various charges including "attempting to provide material support to terrorists and to al Qaeda in Iraq".[1]

to

The Bowling Green massacre refers to the misstatements by U.S. Counselor to the PresidentKellyanne Conway in interviews with Cosmopolitan and TMZ on January 29, 2017, and in an interview on the television news program Hardball with Chris Matthews on February 2, 2017. In fact, the incident was not a "massacre" but the arrest of two Iraqi nationals in Bowling Green on various charges including "attempting to provide material support to terrorists and to al Qaeda in Iraq".[1] There was no massacre in Bowling Green.

I find this new version to be inferior in multiple ways. 1) Per Wikipedia style we should be saying "the <subject of the article> is…" if possible. 2) Per the new second sentence "In fact, the incident was not.." What incident? The first sentence no longer says anything about an "incident" so it is not at all clear what this second sentence refers to. 3) the old third sentence, now missing, explained why she brought it up; that is now missing. 4) Final sentence "there was no massacre in Bowling Green" - who said there was? The paragraph doesn't say what her misstatements were or explain what the "massacre" refers to. 5) Overall, this new version leaves it completely unclear what "Bowling Green massacre" even refers to. I think we should revert to the previous version and then discuss it. (I would revert it myself but I've done my 1RR for the day.) What do others think? --MelanieN (talk) 21:30, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree, and have made the revert. I do think the lead can be improved, but I think the older version is preferable as between these two. Thanks. Dumuzid (talk) 21:42, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. FYI: I was the one who re-wrote the Introduction. Respectfully, isn't this better described as a "misstatement" by Ms. Conway rather than a "nonexistent incident"? There was an arrest of two Iraqi nationals on terrorism related charges but there wasn't a "massacre". The phrase "non-existent incident" doesn't quite fit in my opinion.

Also, I appreciate that you initiated a Talk page discussion on this rather than just a blunt deletion. Thanks! WSDavitt (talk) 00:33, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Your rewording is much appreciated. However, I think that to maintain neutral point of view, we can just say that the incident quite simply never happened. Kellyanne Conway could have misspoke by accident, or on the flip side, she could have said it on purpose (at least that's what Washington Post is suggesting). We don't know what was exactly in her mind at the time. epicgenius (talk) 02:57, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

What we do know is that she said virtually the same thing, in virtually the same words, three different times in three different interviews over a period of several days. Which makes it clear that this was not a misstatement, not a slip of the tongue, not an accident. It was a carefully prepared and memorized talking point. It wasn't until the MSNBC interview was aired, and some folks in Tennessee said, "hey, wait a minute, what massacre?", that she got called on it.

We can't in good conscience call it a misstatement or a mistake; that seems more and more unlikely. We also can't call it a lie; we have no evidence that she knew there was no such thing; more likely she was given misinformation and believed it. We really can't characterize what she intended by it, certainly not in the lede sentence. What we can do, per Wikipedia style, is to use the lede sentence to tell what the subject of the article is ... without attempting to characterize what she meant it to be. --MelanieN (talk) 03:31, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

It is definitely a "misstatement". The issue is whether it was deliberate or not. I'm not sure that anyone really knows. The article is a bit of a mess at this point as it simultaneously talks about a "nonexistent incident" and the actual terror-related arrests of two Iraqi nationals in Bowling Green. Thanks for continuing this respectfully discussion! WSDavitt (talk) 03:56, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

According to the lead, which you rearranged (and I had to fix a little), the false statement from Conway is loosely based on the fact that there was an actual terror-related arrest. Conway says she meant to refer to these arrests and not an actual massacre. These two things are clarified in the lead. epicgenius (talk) 04:34, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Excellent Article

This is quite good--well written and covers all the issues clearly and concisely. I am not sure why it gets a C from so many of the classification systems. Tedperl (talk) 22:26, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

PPP poll

Regarding this addition, is the poll necessary? I happened to find this poll few weeks ago, and had I not seen this, I would probably have added some content.

Public Policy Polling, a Democratic poll known to throw a kooky question or two into the mix, got some interesting answers related to President Trump's (now stalled) executive order on immigration.

...

However, the information presented by Public Policy Polling should be considered carefully. Some of their previous polling practices have been called "unscientific" and the polling organization has also been called out for "[treating] its data inconsistently". One of its biggest critics is Nate Silver and his nonpartisan polling aggregation and analysis site, FiveThirtyEight. – Alyssa Pereira, SFGate, 2017-02-10

And I just found another critical piece:

That makes a splashy headline, and it’s catnip for liberals who want to laugh at how stupid they think Trump supporters are. But it’s not good polling practice and should not be reported without substantial caveats about how the question was written and likely perceived by respondents. – Natalie Jackson, The Huffington Post, 2017-02-10

Moreover, I don't think The Independent summary "[m]ore than half of Donald Trump supporters think a made-up massacre actually happened" is consistent with how reliable sources have usually summarized the result. As Jackson puts it:

So PPP’s results likely don’t tell us anything about whether people think the Bowling Green massacre was a real event, as some are interpreting the poll. The question directly tied the Bowling Green Massacre to Trump’s executive order and asked it in an agree/disagree format that would lean Trump supporters toward agreeing.

I think we should just remove the poll here and perhaps add appropriate content to Public Policy Polling. Politrukki (talk) 12:04, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I have added the full results of the question per the actual PPP source. I agree that the interpretation of the results was inaccurate at best. The question didn't ask whether the event was true, the question presumed it is true, and asked whether it was a justification for policy. TimothyJosephWood 12:45, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I think we should remove any reference to this bogus poll. The question as phrased was a "have you stopped beating your wife" question - one that assumed the Bowling Green massacre was real and asked how they felt about its effect. There was literally no way to answer the question if you already knew the "massacre" was imaginary, and people's responses show absolutely nothing about their knowledge of the subject or feelings about it. We should not mention this meaningless "survey" in the article. --MelanieN (talk) 20:12, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

After reviewing the discussion here, I have removed it from the article. Nice table and all, User:Timothyjosephwood, but IMO this adds nothing but confusion to the article. I'm open to persuasion, of course. --MelanieN (talk) 20:18, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

MelanieN: I think it potentially adds something, put in the right context. That the question assumes you beat your wife doesn't mean the answer is meaningless. So long as the response is "no, I haven't stopped beating my wife" then the answer is meaningful, even if the question is disingenuous. TimothyJosephWood 01:30, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

That answer is meaningless. Does it mean "No, I haven't stopped, I am still beating my wife" or "No, I haven't stopped, because I never started"? We don't know. And the answers to this poll are equally meaningless. There is no way to answer "yes" or "no" to a question based on a false premise. --MelanieN (talk) 14:54, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

MelanieN: With all due respect, (and this is pretty exceptionally nuanced) in the classic example of "have you stopped beating your wife," it is only the "yes" responses that are in question. The "no" responses are unequivocal, where:

• No = I beat my wife previously and I continue to do so, and
• Yes =

1. I beat my wife previously and I no longer do, but also
2. I never beat my wife, and this is the most favorable of the available options.

In this case the "yes" answer is ambiguous but the "no" answer is definitive. If a poll showed that a significant portion of people answered in the unambiguous "no," then the results would still be meaningful. TimothyJosephWood 22:08, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Timothy, With all due respect (and yes, I remember that essay too - what a shame the author deleted it), the bottom line remains that it is impossible to make anything meaningful out of this poll, and I oppose saying anything about it in the article. --MelanieN (talk) 23:02, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

I tend to agree with MelanieN here. While I don't think the poll is somehow unusable per se, I think it is a case of much more heat than light. Better left out. Thanks. Dumuzid (talk) 23:17, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Meh. That's fine. I wasn't referring to any particular essay; I was being serious, and as I said, taking a particularly nuanced position, which I'm not surprised isn't appreciated. I say "with all due respect" because I respect your opinion, not because I'm being disingenuous. Respondents in the affirmative are affirming both the premise and the conclusion in this case, but I don't care enough about it to open an RfC, the facts of which will probably be lost on most of the respondents. TimothyJosephWood 23:18, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Sorry Timothy, Wikipedia isn't your own personal political blog. And false polls are not welcome on an encyclopedia. Please keep them to yourself in the future. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.80.228.253 (talk) 01:14, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

With regard to Timothy's comment above, "no" responses are not unequivocal. "No" could be "No, I have never beaten my wife", which I think would be the normal response.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:24, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Protection

It's much better to put an edit notice than EP. Why the protection? Wumbolo (talk) 21:04, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Maybe Merge?

Do we have a list of Trump mistaken and/or misstated assertions, or similar, where this could be merged?E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:42, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Not that I'm aware of. And for an article with almost 50 references, that's been on the main page, and to AfD and back with a SNOW keep, a notability tag is a little out of place. GMG^talk 18:47, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Well, I'm not suggesting deletion, but I admit that there have been so many that I had forgotten this one and and when I stumbled onto this page scanning an editor's edit history I assumed it would link to an incident in the Northwest Indian War. I see that it is linked from First 100 days of Donald Trump's presidency, and now remember that it was Kellyanne Conway who said this (it sounded like a Trump to me). I wonder whether it would be more useful to redirect to Kellyanne Conway#Bowling Green massacre.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:21, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Given that this is a substantial article of the type that would be UNDUE if merged with Conway, I'm guessing you are going to have a hard time finding a strong consensus for that. Either way, since this is a "notability does not guarantee a stand alone article" issue, and not a "notability" issue, I'm going to take the liberty of removing the tag. You are of course welcome to propose a merger at the target article, but discussion of a proposed merger is not the purpose of a notability tag. GMG^talk 15:10, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I would support a merge. It's not substantial enough to have its only article.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:50, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I would also support a merge at this point. Not sure what article to merge it into. Agree with removing the notability tag. Mr. Swordfish (talk) 10:22, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I would oppose a merge because there is simply too much material that would overload a biography of a person like Conway. Most of the material is well sourced and encyclopedic.- MrX 🖋 21:54, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose: the article got 15,000 views per month on average in the past year, with its best month being July 2018 with 22,000 views. That's pretty healthy for what seemed like a fleeting topic at the time. I generally don't like to use viewership stats at AfD, but I think this helps evaluate the relevance of the subject to the readers. It's got surprising longevity. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:45, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

AFD again?

Should we go and run this article though AFD again? At this point it seems fairly clear there is no lasting impact or even modern mention just about anywhere. But before I give it a shot I was hoping to get a feel for what people think. PackMecEng (talk) 01:31, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

I'll vote keep if we have to have another AfD. It's still relevant in these days of fake news and alternative facts, and I do see some 2018 mentions of it in reliable sources. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:35, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

What would you think about a merge to Kellyanne Conway? PackMecEng (talk) 01:40, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

I haven't changed my point of view over this time. If AfD fails, I would support a a merge to the Conway page. However, given the result last time I doubt an AfD would be successful. It would be better just to try a merge. Alternatively, it would be good just to change the title, which is strange and misleading.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:21, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

I'd lean towards keeping the article separate. It's too long to be merged into the Conway one without significant trimming, and incorporates other BG/terrorism background and context info that's not quite pertinent to her biography. I guess we could alter the title to be more accurate - Mythical BGM or something - but the current title would still redirect there. Just my 2c. jxm (talk) 16:03, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

It's a simple misstatement. It doesn't have the status of a myth.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:33, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Based on my survey below, the title should be "Kellyanne Conway Bowling Green misstatement". It's ugly, but that seems to be the pattern.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:45, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

PackMecEng, maybe, I guess. I'd read other people's arguments for and against and then decide. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:40, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Comparison with other minor US political incidents

• Barack Obama's Auschwitz gaffe — one sentence in Charles T. Payne.
• Hillary Clinton's Bosnia sniping claim [11] — doesn't seem to be mentioned in Wikipedia.
• George W Bush's devaluation/deflation mix-up in Japan [12] — doesn't seem to be mentioned in Wikipedia.
• Dick Cheney hunting incident — full article.
• Al Gore and information technology has several paragraphs defending him over his supposed claim that he "invented the Internet".
• Bill Clinton haircut controversy — only gets a few lines in Public image of Bill Clinton.
• George H. W. Bush vomiting incident — full article.
• Ronald Reagan's Bitburg controversy — full article.
• Ronald Reagan's speech, We begin bombing in five minutes — full article.

Based on this list, basically dredged from my memory, it seems that older incidents are more likely to have full articles. Perhaps you could say they have stood the test of time. And there seems to be a bias against Republicans. I don't think there's any basis for having an article about a misstatement by White House official.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:05, 4 January 2019 (UTC) Also:

• Elizabeth Warren's Native American ancestry claim — two paragraphs in her article.
• Gerald Ford's alleged clumsiness — one paragraph in his article.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:56, 4 January 2019 (UTC)
  • I never heard of Obama's "Auschwitz gaffe" before, don't remember the W/Japan thing either, or Bill Clinton's haircut. HW barfing in Japan, Al Gore inventing the Internet, I think most of us remember those. These aren't all the same. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:40, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Well, I hadn't heard of Conway's gaffe until I stumbled across this page! However, I think you have heard of the Auschwitz gaffe because I mentioned it in a discussion you were part of on this page back on 8 February 2017. If you were a politician people would be calling you a liar. I had forgotten the vomiting until I started the list. I don't see why it needs an article. There were no repercussions. Yes, these incidents are not all the same. How could they be? But can anyone point to an article about a misstatement by a White House official???--Jack Upland (talk) 22:15, 5 January 2019 (UTC)