Talk:Bloodhound

Cleanboot (talk) 17:16, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Vulnerable Native Breed

This breed is classed in Britain as a VNB - a breed which originated in the UK but now has registration numbers with the Kennel Club of less then 300 puppies per year.

I'm a Canadian teeneager on a gap year before Uni and I'm really interested in this. Would anyone like a VNB paragraph/link on this page? I can write it, but am ignorant about formatting etc etc. I'm also trying to put together a whole collection on all 29 breeds on this list, including history and so. Please contact me either on my talk page or at green_ied_dragon@hotmail.com

--The Wizard of Magicland 18:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer WoM. As far as the UK's Bloodhound Club (BC) and Association of Bloodhound Breeders (ABB) is concerned, this is a sore topic, since behind their back, officials within the UK Kennel Club have introduced a controversial outcross using the VNB scheme as the pretext. This has resulted in the BC and ABB requesting the removal of the Bloodhound from the KC's VNB register.

As far as the Bloodhound page is concerned, I think we could have an article on Outcrosses, then a link to the KC's VNB scheme as an article under The Kennel Club [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennel_Club_%28UK%29 ] . Sanft 13:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Note to Wizard: I don't know if the situation is similar to the US, but I think it is similar to the UK. The number of puppies registered in a country's Kennel Club has very little to do with how many new pups are actually whelped. I find it very difficult to believe that the Bloodhound is genuinely endangered, although it is certainly true that there are not very many relative to certain other breeds. Most dogs are not registered with a national kennel club. Don't forget that. They are family pets. The Bloodhound will never be a very popular family pet, as he requires too much work and attention from the owner. He is too big, too messy, needs a great deal of exercise, and stinks (to put it mildly). In the US, I believe that last year (2005), out of some 15,000 newly registered dogs, the AKC reported 300 Bloodhounds. Bloodhounds are needed for police and rescue work the world over, so I don't think the Bloodhound is going anywhere soon. I'd worry about the English Foxhound more if I were you. You guys have apparently taken a cue from the political correctness movement in our country, and committed an (arguably) equal folly, but I'll leave that for the Talk Page on Fox hunting legislation. The American Foxhound is safe and secure. Two other magnificent breeds. 66.108.4.183 11:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

I agree with Allen Roth's points here.

Curiously the UK Kennel Club is using photos of an unregistered hound pack to illustrate their [bloodhound trials], where hounds hunt singly. If the UK packs were included, then the number of bloodhound puppies born in the UK each year would be well over 300 :-)

Sanft 09:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Sanft. I failed to mention what is also very important, especially for breeds like the Bloodhound, where the proportion of dogs actually used for the original purpose (for which the breed was created) is relatively high to the number of actual dogs of the breed> What I mean is, take the Cocker Spaniel. I assume it was originally created for some task. Now, today, the number of cockers used for hunting or trapping (whatever the original purpose was) is small relative to the total number of cockers. Almost all are probably either family pets (the vast majority) or show dogs. Take the Bloodhound or Foxhound or German Shepherd, on the other hand. A much larger percentage of all such dogs is actually used for the original purpose. Now--I doubt very much that even most of the Bloodhounds owned by governmental and police bodies are registered with a kennel club. Licensed, maybe. But that's not the same thing. If the statistics used in the designation of the UK's "vulnerable native breed" come from a UK National Kennel Club, the fact that even working Bloodhounds are probably not registered in such a kennel club is even more supportive of my argument earlier. Consider the numbers: I believe there are about 30-40 million dogs in the US. So, in any given year, there must be at least 1 million in all the litters, yet only 15,000 were registered. I rest my case. I doubt whether the Bloodhound is endangered at all. The number of Bloodhounds registered in the UK for 2005 given by Wizrd above also seems to indicate how few are registered: Three hundred? That could be as small as 40 litters. QED. And, I continue to maintain that the Bloodhound is not a breed native to the UK. I accept that differences of opinion can exist, but I have done a little more research, which continues to confirm that the Breed originated in Belgium/France, and was brought to England by Guilliame le Conquerant...(yes, I did some reading in French lol). Even the UK Bloodhound Club site linked above does not deny that the Bloodhound originated in Belgium; it merely says that there's no evidence for it, but the site does not offer any evidence, or even an account, for the claim that the breed originated in the UK. That site also denies the source of the name as "Pure-blooded," but the alternative--tracking blood--seems less likely to me. Did the Bloodhound ever scent for blood? Didn't it always operate from skin cells? Anyone is invited to comment on this topic, which I have not researched. Anyway, bottom line, I merely wanted to mention that working Bloodhounds are also most likely not registered with a kennel club either, and I suspect that with a breed like the Bloodhound, the number of working dogs is quite significant relative to the number of Bloodhounds as family pets. 66.108.106.230 18:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

In the UK it is accepted that the majority - though not all - dogs are registered, as even crossbreeds and mutts can be registered with the KC. The only dog that falls into the category of working vs show dogs in the Greyhound, where the racing variety is quite obviously numerous, but the number of show standard dogs is dangerously low.--The Wizard of Magicland 21:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The Kennel Club might claim that "the UK it is accepted that the majority" of "dogs are registered", but the evidence is not there for Bloodhounds. Registering the packs like the example at [thekennelclub.org.uk bloodhound trials], may be an answer, but then this would give different meaning to the term Vulnerable Native Breed? Sanft 12:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This breed originated in Belgium, not the UK. 2600:1700:1DC0:8CC0:C2CB:38FF:FE11:20F8 (talk) 20:54, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Removed

Removed the following from article, as it's not true--all dogs can scent in the air and after a rain. See article for better description.

Bloodhounds, unlike many breeds of dog, have the ability to follow a scent in the air. Most breeds follow the scent marks on the ground or on nearby objects. This is why many dogs will lose a scent after rain, or if it crosses water. The Bloodhound's nose is so sensitive, it is able to pick up the much more diffuse scent from the air.

Elf | Talk 13:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

"It is believed that..."

In the "Scenting Ability" section, the last sentence uses a common weasel term: "It is believed that pendulous ears and moist, pendulous lips...". I know this is a minor complaint, and the knowledge is less than arcane, but is there a source we can cite? – ClockworkSoul 15:49, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You're right. I probably wrote that myself (for shame) and I'll see whether I can backtrack to where I got the info. Elf | Talk 20:41, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I have cleaned up this article somewhat, and clarified some of the issues raised on this page. I've also added a few additional details. This article needs better organization and fuller treatment; compare Basset Hound, which is clearer and more informative. I will try to re-write when I have more time.66.108.4.183 16:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)Allen Roth

History

A comprehensive, well researched and referenced, and generally well written history of the bloodhound by Mac Barwick of the (UK) Bloodhound Club (http://www.bloodhoundclub.co.uk/History/index.htm) takes issue with a number of assertions on this page. These include the place of origin of the bloodhound (Britain rather than Belgium/France), the general lineage of the bloodhound (not clearly related to either the St. Hubert hound or the Talbot hound), the earliest known reference to the bloodhound (mid-1300s rather than 1000), and the origin of the name ("blood-seeking hound" rather than "pure-bred hound"). He also provides the origin of the misinformation in each case.--Bgungle 16:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Not surprised that a UK source claims the Bloodhound was created in Britain: it is virtually indisputable that all early hounds stem originally from France or surrounding areas (e.g. Belgium). As an American, I would love to say otherwise, but those facts are cited everywhere, even as to the origins of the American Foxhound (a champion of which I once owned, before I discovered the magnificence and sweetness of the Bloodhound). I will admit that, as I wrote above, this article is really poorly organized and written, and even that some of its statements are possibly incorrect (I only supplied a few corrections after I came upon it) but, while the St. Hubert monastery story may be incorrect, the origins of the Bloodhound (and most of the early Hound breeds) are clearly France and Belgium. The American Foxhound was created in the 1700s after George Washington received a gift of French Hounds from General LaFayette, which were mixed with the English Foxhounds that were brought here (I mean the United States); the English Foxhound had been created in the time of K. Henry VIII by mixing the Greyhound, the Fox Terrier, and the English Bulldog. I will take a look at your link, to see if I may be mistaken. 66.108.4.183 18:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

The points made here by 66.108.4.183 aka Allen Roth appear to be more appropriate for placing at a History section of Scenthounds [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scenthound ].

It is dismissive to suggest that for a British source to state a British origin for the bloodhound stems from shallow Chauvinism rather than evidence. It may be widely accepted that all or the majority of scent-hounds descend from French ancestors, but we are concerned with the specific origin of the bloodhound. All dog-breeds divide and recombine into others, and where they originate is where they were first bred, acquired an identity and a name. We would not say that the Welsh springer spaniel or the Sussex Spaniel originated in Spain because the word ‘spaniel’ implies a Spanish dog. They originated in specific parts of Britain. The country in which the American fox-hound (or the American cocker spaniel, or the black and tan coonhound) originated was the USA. The bloodhound has appeared in English writing from c1350 and referred to as a specific British or English breed, both in English and continental texts from the 16th century. The modern American population of bloodhounds and the European bloodhound (aka Chien de St Hubert) descend from bloodhounds exported from Britain from the 19th century onwards. {user: Cleanboot} 24 Sep 2009

I also agree with Mac Barwick's account on History and Origin of name [ http://www.bloodhoundclub.co.uk/History/80.htm#VIII ]. Surely the point of a global encyclopedia is to present all credible alternatives, rather than just the most acceptable to breeders? ed. Sanft 11:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

In regard to the Pages on Bloodhound History on the Bloodhound Club website, [1], which is questioned above, as regards historical evidence, the booklet Aspects of Bloodhound History which lies behind it contains many more detailed historical references and quotations. It is available from the Bloodhound Club and a full text was printed in the American Bloodhound Club bulletin Early Fall 2006.

In a way it is a pity that the FCI insist on naming a country of origin and declaring that the Bloodhound is the Chien de St Hubert (rather than an animal which may have descended from it, which was how it was seen by most writers on the bloodhound in the last two centuries). Such conclusions depend on the evidence, and how one interprets it, and on such unresolvable questions as exactly what constitutes a dog breed and when does one breed become another. Also, how far back does one want to go? Where did the monks of the abbey at Andain get their foundation stock? France? Italy? Tartary? If self appointed bodies like the FCI, AKC, or KC(UK) (which regards the bloodhound as a British native breed, but doesn’t state country of origin in breed standards) make this kind of statement, it makes no difference to the historical evidence, which we are entitled to interpret in our own way.

It can hardly be disputed that what we have nowadays in type and breeding is the English bloodhound, which does not closely resemble any hound depicted in Medieval illustrations I have seen. Which is the ‘true’ St Hubert? The one which degenerated and passed out of existence on the continent in the 19th century, or the Bloodhound, which may descend from it, whose appearance today has changed considerably from its first captioned picture in the 16th century, and surely more still from whatever ancestor it had around 1300 - or 1066, if one chooses to accept the notion that it came over with William the Conqueror?

The St Hubert has an important historical tradition for Belgium, France and French speakers in particular; the bloodhound has a huge history in Britain, and cultural tradition in English literature and speech, which make it one of the most iconic of our breeds. It is much more important that both strands should be accurately recorded in any historical account than that we should try to settle the argument about what is the ‘true’ origin. Currently the British history is simply ignored in the ‘history’ entry and I would like to add to it.

--Cleanboot 19:38, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I have added substantially to the History section, not deleting anything that was already there, trying always to cite primary sources, or good secondary sources (ie ones which themselves cite or quote primary sources). Also added section on derivation of 'bloodhound'. Evidence re this has been passed on to the editors of the OED and well received by them. The re-editing of the entry for 'Bloodhound' is, however, some years off, I believe. Also created entries for 'sleuth hound' and 'rache', and added to entries on Talbot, John Caius and Conrad Gesner--Cleanboot

The Derivation of 'Bloodhound'

This is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of evidence. Etymology, and more broadly historical linguistics, are not matters of guesswork, but respectable academic disciplines, which require scholarship and historical evidence on which to base their conclusions. When there is conflicting evidence, opinion may come into play, though the honest approach is to make clear that there is support for both sides. To the best of my knowledge no historical evidence of any kind whatsoever has ever been presented by anyone in support of the idea that 'bloodhound' originally meant 'hound of pure or noble breeding', in spite of which many accounts of the bloodhound offer it as the 'only' interpretation. It is a fair assumption that no such evidence exists. On the other hand the idea that it originally meant 'hound that (in some sense) seeks blood' is supported by a body of historical evidence of several kinds, and so is actually entitled to be given as the 'only' interpretation.--Cleanboot (talk) 11:26, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Correction

–In the American antebellum South, the Bloodhound was frequently used to track runaway slaves, which accounts for the large number of Bloodhounds and breeders still located in that region. Bloodhounds, which are almost always used in a pack, do not attack upon reaching their quarry, as many erroneously believe, but surround him and bay, alerting the searchers.

—The tracking of slaves was a use in all existing states prior to the civil war era not only the south. The most common use of Bloodhounds, the tracking of crimminals was and is still very common. The use of bloodhounds as slave tracking bloodthirsty monsters was picked up and exagerated by the media esp. abolitionist newspapers of the era after the publication of Uncle Toms Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe.

– Bloodhounds have also been and still can be used to track and alert their master to large game such as deer and elk through heavily wooded areas as well, this was the main use by the royalty of europe that caused the name we use today. The intentional breeding and conditioning out of the kill and attack instincts of the breed originated so that the master could kill the prey came during this time period. Bloodhounds that are used for animal and offlead people tracking require intensive training due to the fact that once on a trail a bloodhound will sometimes follow the trail until it finds the quarry or collapses which may be many miles away from it master.

–Bloodhounds used today normally work alone as a 1 handler 1 dog team rather than in packs, due to the tendency of all hound breeds to play follow the leader. Bloodhounds can work in packs but that practice has been rarely followed since the 1920's in law enforcement and rescue work.

–A handler / bloodhound team used for law enforcement or rescue work normally requires 3 - 5 years of training to be come proficient and regular daily / weekly training in all weather and all conditions to become very dependable and capable. Training include trail laying, work with cadaver/ body recovery, subject identification from a line up of similar test subjects, and socialization/familiarization to any of the environemnts it may be called to work in (Urban, rural, suburban mountains swamps etc.) Proficient Bloodhounds have been used as evidence in crimminal cases due to the ability of highly trained bloodhounds to identify suspects and pick them out of a lineup by only their individual scent and the trail that they leave.

Mac's owner--71.28.195.143 21:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Commentary

Slavery was illegal in states other than the "South" prior to the War Between the States. Consequently, tracking runaway slaves was an operation carried out almost exclusively by Southerners. Although, as recounted in the famous case Dred Scott v. Sandford, slaveowners did indeed venture into non-Slave States in pursuit of their quarry, the use of Bloodhounds to track slaves was clearly restricted to Southerners. Of course, Bloodhounds had been used to track escaped prisoners throughout the United States. Nevertheless, the prominence of Breeders and Bloodhounds in the South is clearly apparent even in the twenty-first century. Anyone interested in acquiring a Bloodhound will notice this almost immediately upon beginning research into breeders.

It is rare for Bloodhounds to be used for tracking game such as deer or elk; the Coonhound or other scenthounds are typically used for this purpose. Bloodhound use is generally confined to tracking human beings: e.g. lost children, escaped prisoners, earthquake victims, etc.

The linkage of the Bloodhound (or any other scenthound, for that matter) with aggression or killing is extremely doubtful. It is unlikely that the kill instinct had to be "removed" from the Bloodhound by the time the breed was created, as that instinct had long ago been systematically eliminated from the dog in general (with the exception of fighting breeds or guarding breeds) during the process of domestication. In addition, the "voice" was bred into many of the scenthounds precisely because of the likely separation of the trackers from the hounds (or hound) during the chase; the characteristic sound of the hound was specifically designed to be both heard from afar, and also easily identifiable to the searchers, indicating that the hounds had cornered their quarry. The American Foxhound, in particular, has always been noted for its melodious tones. As an example of the absence of agression in such hounds, a cornered fox is occasionally thrown to the foxhounds at the conclusion of a hunt, for the specific purpose of reinforcing their hunting (tracking) instinct. In the ordinary course of events, the hounds will never attempt to kill or eat the fox even after cornering. Aggression and tracking are not linked. This is a common misconception. "Hunting dogs," of whatever group--whether Pointers, Setters, or Hounds, are used as part of the sport of hunting, not for attacking or killing. The Bloodhound, especially, is known as one of the gentlest breeds, even quite timid, for the most part. 66.108.4.183 03:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

You should create an account rather than do it as an anon ip user! - Trysha ^(talk) 21:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

hoax?

On 2006 June 16, anonymous IP 66.108.4.183 added an unsourced story about a bloodhound named Nash. Frankly, it looks like a joke at the expense of Wikipedia, so I'm taking the liberty of deleting it. If someone (presumably a resident of New York City) can provide confirmation that these claims are factual and that the dog deserves to be internationally known (which I doubt), then feel free to restore it. --KSmrq^T 05:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[ Sorry KSmrq, I haven't worked out how to add a separate entry and embed wiki links yet :-( Sanft 10:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC) ]

I was attracted to this article by the google search summary:

Bloodhound - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Bloodhound is prone to hip dysplasia, and is the breed that is the most ... The bloodhound was first bred ca. AD 1000 by monks at the St. Hubert ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodhound - 27k - 7 Aug 2006

Since I thought this was misleading, I joined up :) I hesitate to edit the article page.

1. Health

The breed in the USA may be prone hip dysplasia, but this did not feature as prominent in the last UK survey. I agree that the breed is prone to bloat, but what justifies the statement "is the breed that is the most frequent victim of bloat."? The reference to American Bloodhound Association, if it is not the National Police Bloodhound Association. [ http://www.npba.com/ ] presumably should refer to The American Bloodhound Club, but having failed to find anything on this at http://www.bloodhounds.org/ could do with a factual reference.

2. History

I may have a less pro-Brit attitude after I have been in the parade of hounds held on the 3rd September at St Hubert, Ardennes [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Hubert%2C_Belgium ]

My understanding is that St. Hubert, Ardennes was part of France then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium From the sixteenth century until the Belgian revolution in 1830, Belgium, at that time called the Southern Netherlands, . .

For now, changing

The bloodhound was first bred ca. AD 1000 by monks at the St. Hubert Monastery in Belgium.

which contains a dead link, might more accurately state

The ancentry of the bloodhound dates back to AD 1000, when hounds were bred at the Monastery of St Hubert [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubertus ] in Ardennes [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardennes ]

The name bloodhound was adopted in the 14th century in England, for a pure-bred, large, scent-hound, sometimes used to track people.

3. Noteworth Examples

Perhaps he is topical, but in historical terms, I wonder about the validity of the feature on Ch. Heathers Knock on Wood.

The statement

"He has received more Best in Shows than any other Bloodhound, and is the first liver-and-tan Bloodhound ever to win a Best in Show"

should be qualified to refer to "in the USA" and it would be more informative to state how many Best in Shows he received?

I am responsible for some, but not all, of the content you are discussing. Your criticisms, for the most part, are indeed valid, I must acknowledge. Your comments on bloat and on Knotty are well taken. I've corrected the text about bloat. Knotty probably really isn't that important a dog, but he created quite a sensation in the Bloodhound world when he won the Best In Show at Eukanuba; it is indeed extraordinarily rare for a bloodhound to get a Best in the U.S. Also, as being liver-and-tan, which judges never really preferred. Admittedly, this material is not of earthshaking importance, but I think it's appropriate in an encyclopedia article on the Bloodhound. I only feel somewhat funny because the article itself is still so incomplete and needs so much more work. The material on the Bloodhound's origins is less debatable. The one thing we do know is that it is clear that the (modern) hounds come from France, which has a wider variety of Hound breeds than any other country in the world. The Grand Bleu de Gascogne, Petit Bleu, Poitevin, and I could go on and on... Many of these Hounds are not even recognized in the United States, let alone found here. So it is very likely that the Bloodhound originated in France, even if the St. Hubert story and the time of creation may be inaccurate. I only mention this to illustrate that in this case, a historical "rumor" or "legend" probably does have some truth behind it. Ironically, although I wrote the comments above on the Bloodhound's French origins, the Bloodhound that bested Knotty and won the breed at Crufts 2006 was English, and well deserved his award. He was truly magnificent (in my opinion). I have no animus against the English at all; but in this case the French do indeed deserve the credit. 66.108.4.183 17:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

It looks like 66.108.4.183 aka Allen Roth has been wrongly accused of the hoax regarding Nash. I thank him for the compliments on Fergus [ http://farlap.co.uk/Bloodhounds/Farlap04.htm ] but would not regard this hound as particularly "Noteworthy" either. It does raise the point that the modern day red is a North American Outcross, so there is room for Origins of the breed to be expanded under a section in this article, perhaps entitled Outcrosses.

Colour inheritance may be more appropriately explained in another linkable article within the Dogs category. Sanft 14:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Images

I don't know whether the following photo is adequate quality to use in illustration of the Belgian connection:

Bloodhounds featured at the Nostalgia Parade from the Monastery of St Hubert, Ardennes.

Sanft 20:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I think your photograph is fascinating, if not wonderful. It could use a little larger size, because it is difficult to make out the Bloodhounds with any detail. If you could do that, I think it would benefit. Certainly appropriate for the History section of this article. While we're at it, the main photo of the Bloodhound is really inadequate, in terms of displaying detail. I haven't ever uploaded a photo at Wikipedia, but I could do one of my Bloodhound. Or, the photo in the Wikipedia Francais article is very good, as well. It's of the owner's Bloodhound, "Mon chien." :) Also a very good photo. Oddly enough, the French article on the Chien de St Hubert is very poor, not even considering that the breed was created right near there. (ed.) 66.108.4.183 07:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

The photo on the right is a thumbnail to a 400x400 jpeg. It illustrates the size of the entrance to the monastery, featured at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Saint-Hubert_JPG02.jpg

The best set of photos to achieve the detail in context that I have seen is for 2003 at the Belgian Bloodhound Club site [ http://www.chiens-de-saint-hubert.be/galerie%20de%20photos/Saint-Hubert%202003/album.htm ]

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chien_de_Saint-Hubert#Histoire doesn't make the same connection, but the image http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bloodhound.jpg features only a portrait of what could be regarded as a plane head, compared with the standard description. (It is perhaps best not to use photo of your own dog if you are unprepared for candid comments (NB. I haven't seen your hound!)).

I think the use of images may be useful to illustrate the colours and saddle patterns available, under an additional section.

I added a photo of a bloodhound puppy since there were no puppy pics. Image can be seen here http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ABloodhound_Rescue_Puppy.JPG SapphireDreamPhotography (talk) 14:17, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Mantrailing

FYI Fox Hunting: History now has a link to Hunting the Clean Boot. This is the use of Bloodhounds as sport rather than serious work. Perhaps there is scope for starting a section under the Bloodhound article for both, either here or a separate article on Mantrailing to cover other breeds? Sanft 08:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Blood Hounds

Blood Hounds These friendly dogs are known as the "Gentle Giants. " They look mighty big; they stand from 23 to 30 inches high and way 80 to 160 pounds. Their colors vary from black & tan, liver& tan or red.They may live from 10 to 12 years.

by: Clara Sava- Segal and Brosef

Tone

This article is written like a sales-piece. The information is completely unsourced and the claims range from dubious to ridiculous. Claims such as long ears helping the dog scent are the sort of claims that show breeders, unfamiliar with working dogs make to rationalize the whims of show judges. The article needs a complete re-write.--Counsel 16:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the article is full of nonsense. Bloodhounds may or may not have better scenting abilities than (some) other breeds of dog, but all breeds that have a reasonably "natural", protruding nose (unlike e.g. mops) are fully capable of tracking down people, animals or objects. As most breeds can be employed for such purposes the breeds actually used have been selected on the basis of their general physical and mental characteristics. Certainly in Europe and the USA bloodhounds are rarely if ever used as tracking dogs. When the article claims that bloodhounds are used as tracking dogs all over the world I can only ascribe this to its writer having read too many of Conan Doyle's stories.

Clean-up

I agree with the post above, and have started by revising the health section to deal with the obvious fact that bloodhounds have ear and eye issues. Just about every dog breed page reads like a sales-piece, but I'll stick to bloodhounds, since I have some background here - I have two, have show experience, and know a number of people (and hounds) involved in trailing trials and police work.

I changed the reference to pack employment; it's definitely wrong in North America, but I didn't want to get too N.A.-centric. Please feel free to fill in information pertaining to the Rest of the World.

There are a lot of references available, so I'll compile that off-line and add as I go.

While Knotty is a notable bloodhound (I've met him, his owner, and his handler), and probably deserves mention in light of his current celebrity, I don't know that he needs so much space devoted to him. If any individual bloodhound deserves mention, it's Nick Carter, the dog who was reputed to complete a 104-hour-old trail. There's a lot of folklore and fiction in this area, so one must proceed with caution. Rmasbury 21:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I've followed up with some initial editing, adding information on bloodhounds in art and deleting items like "bloodhounds can only track living people" (why would you need to follow a dead person around? zombies?) - I'll reinstate the skin cell discussion in a more concise form later - and removing the notion that bloodhounds aren't used as cadaver dogs - they are. Rmasbury 02:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I've done some further editing as outlined. I'd like to include a link to the Discovery Channel show Mythbusters, which has a clip of the San Mateo Sheriff Dept. hound working a trail, but I'm not competent enough to do this right. Can anybody help? This is the portal:

http://dsc.discovery.com/beyond/index.html?playerId=203711706&categoryId=210013704&lineupId=229524134, 

but I can't get the specific link to work. Rmasbury 03:12, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Allen - I think it's you - went back to "tenacious tracking instinct." I don't disagree, but I'm trying to distinguish between "trailing", which is what bloodhounds in North America do, versus "tracking", which is what other dogs, like German Shepherds do. Trailing involves getting to the destination, cutting corners if necessary. Many bloodhounds fail AKC tracking tests because they won't stay within the prescribed track. The American Bloodhound Club has set up requirements for mantrailing certification, that reflect the way bloodhounds work. Therefore the distinction I'm trying to make. Note that this is North America-centric, so a contrast may need to be made between N.A. and European practice. There probably should be a sub-article on trailing. I'm also going to discuss the relative abundance of bloodhounds in North America, where they're unusual, but becoming more popular, and the quantity of bloodhounds in rescue organizations. Rmasbury 16:24, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Copper from The Fox and the Hound

I have yet to find proof that Disney character Copper is a bloodhound. Why does Wikipedia say so? Soapy Chocolate (talk) 01:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)Soapy Chocolate

I see how old this post is, but replying here for the record. The book described Copper as half Bloodhound. I don't remember if his breed was given in the movie. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 23:34, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

THIS BREED NEEDS HELP

The Bloodhound has a distressingly short lifespan of less than seven years and is unusually subject to the horrendous(and usually fatal unless you get to a vet really fast)condition called bloat. Have Bloodhounds always been so sick and short-lived? It really seems like a judicious program of outcrossing to healthier scent hounds breeds would be advisable. Redbone and Treeing Walker Coonhounds have reported lifespans that are twice as long.

Why do the breeders and fanciers seem to have so little concern for the health of their dogs? Falange (talk) 23:31, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

First of all, the talk page is not a forum for general discussion. Second, this problem is common to all giant breeds: wolfhounds, mastiffs, St. Bernards: a breed's average lifespan is inversely proportional to its size. Average lifespan for bloodhounds is closer to 8-10 years, in my experience (I have two right now, and know several dozen others), which while distressingly short, is about normal for 100-lb dogs. Outcrossing would have no effect, other than creating a smaller dog which is neither a coonhound (which is half the size of a bloodhound) nor a bloodhound, which might live longer because it's smaller. It's a genetic feature of dogs in general, not breed-specific. Small dogs can live 15-18 years. Acroterion _(talk) 01:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Redbone and Treeing Walker Coonhounds weigh much less than a typical Bloodhound; at least 30 per cent less. Hence their longer life span. As a matter of fact, the Bloodhound--despite its relatively short lifespan--experiences a much lower degree of hereditary illnesses than most other breeds. Hip dysplasia, for example, which is so common in large breeds, such as the Lab (Labarador Retriever) or the Golden Retriever, is not that serious an issue with the Bloodhound. I believe that this is due to the Bloodhound's lack of popularity as a family pet, with the consequent lack of over-breeding and inbreeding. The Bloodhound is a high-maintenance breed, requiring large amounts of exercise, and is generally considered one of the messiest breeds. As one of my Bloodhound books says, "The only people who should own a Bloodhound are those that feel they cannot live without one." In fact, were it not for police and rescue work the world over, the Bloodhound would be quite a rare dog. Even so, many Bloodhounds live to a respectable ten years. The Great Dane rarely makes it to eight. My present Bloodhound will be ten in a few months, and shows very little signs of slowing down. Allen Roth 66.108.7.225 (talk) 19:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC) Nash's Owner

Bloodhounds of 100 years ago were apparently designed to work: http://www.krkennels.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php?t2040.html (...) It was 1920 when Dr. Whitney got into the Bloodhounds. That was over 85 years ago. The show dogs hadn't become as exaggerated in size or type as compared to today's bunch, but read what he had to say about the show type. Incidentally, this is a man that many show people revere as an early icon of the breed.

“I grew up and bought some (Bloodhounds) of my own. But during the interim a change had come over the breed so that what I got were unlike the dogs I had watched with such awe twenty years before. What I bought were more like the useful dogs before the show people began to tinker with them. They had short lips, they were agile instead of phlegmatic, they were extremely alert instead of depressed. But most important of all, they were mightily better suited to their jobs. Now how did such a transformation come about in America? It came about by the dogs being used, and selected on the basis of their usefulness. And the men who used them in trailing people and criminals, found that the show type had meagre (sic) vitality, was too slow for the purposes, were no earthly use for hunting game because of their ponderous size, were no good for pets because of their drooling lips, often made people exclaim when they saw the big red patch of skin under their eyes “disgusting”. So these men who found the dogs useful bred for utility until within ten years the breed reached the greatest usefulness the world has ever come to know." (...)On the page cited above there is a picture of an "accomplished mantrailer" at age 13. Who knows how much longer he lived? Falange (talk) 19:50, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Scenting Ability: Severe Lack of Discussion

I was very surprised while reading this article that there was so little about their scenting ability, working trials or how a dog of this breed is used. Many consider this dog to be the best at trailing humans. I had very little interest in the sections of ancient royal history and their royal lineage.

What I wanted to learn about when I loaded this article is how well modern Bloodhounds track, whether they are air or ground scenters which I never saw discussed and why they are considered to be the best. I suspect those would be the reasons why most casual readers would come to this article.

This article is hardly useful to learn the things I think the vast majority of readers would be interested in learning after Googling "Blood Hound". The section on colors is twice as long as the section on scenting? The scenting section should be the longest and most detailed section of this article. Veriss (talk) 05:47, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I quite agree with you that the article is very light on detail and information about the trailing ability, use and training of bloodhounds. The problem may be in finding citable source material required by Wikipedia. You can't just write what you know; you have to be able to cite what has been written somewhere. There is Whitney's 'Bloodhounds and How to Train Them', which as I remember, outlines three different ways of initial training, and there is the UK ABB's booklet on training dating from pre WWII. I could outline what happens in UK working trials, but American trials are different and would need a different contributor. There are a lot of accounts of the achievements of mantrailing hounds in 'The Complete Bloodhound', for instance, and other books, but a series of anecdotes wouldn't fit in with Wikipedia. Equally, a Wikipedia article probably can't be a training manual, though the American Police Bloodhound Association, or one of its members, surely has a training manual which could be quoted as modern best practice. The section on Scenting Ability was written by someone else, and I haven't messed with it. Certainly input from others who are expert in this field would be welcome. Cleanboot (talk) 17:16, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

As no-one else has done anything I've attempted to supply the deficiency by writing a new section 'Working the Bloodhound', incorporating 'Scenting Ability', which was already there. I'm not best qualified to write this, so last sentence of previous paragraph still applies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cleanboot (talk • contribs) 20:57, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your significant edits. I think the article is much improved and covers ground that I think is of interest to most visitors. Veriss (talk) 05:55, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Bloat

I have just removed the part of the sentence under 'illness' about raised feeders entirely. An edit was made by an IP to change it to read "avoid raised feeders" from the previous advice to "use raised feeders". My initial re-action had been to revert back to using them but a quick search came up with this. Looks as if, as with all advice about bloat, there are no definitive answers. As it is un-referenced, I think removal is the easiest option to save constant unsourced to-ing and fro-ing? SagaciousPhil - Chat 17:38, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

The truth is that nobody knows what causes bloat, and having had five bloodhounds, all of whom bloated at some point (and four of them survived the event, the fifth having other issues on top of bloat), there are no reliable sources concerning raised or lowered bowls, wet or dry food, excercise or not. It's best left out, though a simple mention that they're prone to bloating is sourceable. Acroterion (talk) 19:09, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments, Acroterion, I'm truly sorry to hear you've had to experience dogs with bloat - it's not something I would wish on any dog - or for their owners to see; I had dogs (although not bloodhounds) with it way back in the 1970s and, at that time, the advice was to use raised feeders, hence my initial re-action to revert. I have now removed the unsourced sentence about exercise/feeding. SagaciousPhil - Chat 21:33, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Practically every dog breed article is full of unsourced advice or rumor, and a general house-cleaning is probably called for.

As for bloat, we have the local emergency vet on speed-dial. Fortunately they're only ten minutes away, and we were present when the dogs started bloating on each occasion. The last time, the dog had finished eating two minutes before and was walking around the kitchen as we cleaned up. He went 'yip', looked surprised, then stood awkwardly and immediately started swelling up. He was at the vet 15 minutes later, and in surgery within an hour, and is tacked and with us still, our bank accounts considerably lighter. I've known people who've come home to a dead dog, and it's a terrible way to go for the dog. I don't think the tendency of deep-chested breeds to bloat is as well-known as it should be, or how essential fast intervention is in such events. Acroterion (talk) 21:57, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Lifespan

This article lists a median lifespan of 6.75 years and a typical lifespan of about 9 to 11 years. It seems unlikely that both are true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.51.240 (talk) 06:36, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2017

I would like this useful resource added to wikipedia please.

Bloodhound Information UK, an information website promoting health testing and responsible ownership, sharing current and up to date information on health tests, health concerns, breed traits and training and other general information regarding Bloodhound trials and shows. http://www.bloodhoundinformationuk.co.uk/ 81.157.118.27 (talk) 12:57, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  17:22, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

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