Talk:Bergish dialects

Definition of Bergish

Hello,

the scope of Bergish in the body of the article includes South Bergish and divides Bergish into Low Bergish and East Bergish. This contradicts . Hence I suggest an only secondary coverage of the aforementioned terminology. Kind regards, Sarcelles (talk) 09:43, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

The aforementioned work discusses the issue, which dialects are part of Bergish, in depth. The lists of the :current revision of the article are based on this work. The current body of the article is based on several isoglosses, such as those at the following site: https://rheinische-landeskunde.lvr.de//de/sprache/sprachatlas/dialektkarten/rheinischer_faecher/rheinischer_faecher_1/detailseite_159.html I would like to adapt the article to the former work.

--Sarcelles (talk) 19:30, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Having suggested a move of Low Bergish at the relevant talk page, I advocate a merger of this article with the other and a creation of a disambiguation page.Sarcelles (talk) 18:00, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Strukturelle historische Dialektologie des Deutschen: Strukturhistorische und strukturgeographische Studien zur Vokalentwicklung deutscher Dialekte Peter Wiesinger

Georg Olms Verlag, 01.11.2017 assigns a not very big role to Uerdingen Line and is critical of the terms Low Bergish and East Bergish. Sarcelles (talk) 19:39, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

It doens't have East Bergish as separate from Bergish.Sarcelles (talk) 19:47, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

References

Merger discussion

Hello, this article should integrate the article Low Bergish. A study in Neuere Forschungen in Linguistik und Philologie aus dem Kreise seiner Schüler Ludwig Erich Schmitt zum 65. Geburtstag gewidmet. Steiner, 1975, discusses the issue of divisions of Bergish in depth, rejecting the term niederbergisch (Low Bergisch). Furthermore, the Internet makes rare use of the terms both Low Bergish and Western Bergish. Sarcelles (talk) 15:55, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

• Relisted at Project Languages. GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 23:26, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Scheme of Bergish dialect area

Hello. Klaus J. Mattheier (ed.): Aspekte der Dialekttheorie. Tübingen 1983, p. 76 has the following division of Bergish around the respective localities, the area around Velbert and Breitscheid much larger resprectively than the others:

• Werden
• Mülheim
• Velbert
• Breitscheid
  • Cronenberg
    • Elberfeld
    • Barmen
• partly in brackets
  • Solingen
  • Haan
• also partly in brackets: Mündelheim

Kind regards, Sarcelles (talk) 16:18, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Neuere Forschungen in Linguistik und Philologie aus dem Kreise seiner Schüler Ludwig Erich Schmitt zum 65. Geburtstag gewidmet. Steiner, 1975, p. 82 has a similarly dividing map. The area around Breitscheid is labelled as westliches Zentralbergisch and includes Erkrath, Mettmann, Breitscheid, Gruiten and Wülfrath. östliches Zentralbergisch includes Velbert, Heiligenhaus and Vohwinkel. Wermelskirchen is not Bergish, and part of a smaller area within Ripuarian. Cronenberg is together with Remscheid and Ronsdorf. Solingen is together with Höhscheid, Gräfrath, Wald and Ohligs. The area around Barmen includes Heckinghausen and Oberbarmen. The area around Elberfeld includes Uellendahl and Katernberg. Langenberg is in a small area within Westphalian. Lüttringhausen, Lennep, Hückeswagen, Beyenburg are in an area within Westphalian. Essen, Langerfeld and Wipperfürth are otherwise Westphalian. Sarcelles (talk) 18:33, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

The lists should be merged.Sarcelles (talk) 10:03, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Klaus J. Mattheier (ed.): Aspekte der Dialekttheorie. Tübingen 1983, p. 76 and Neuere Forschungen in Linguistik und Philologie aus dem Kreise seiner Schüler Ludwig Erich Schmitt zum 65. Geburtstag gewidmet. Steiner, 1975, p. 82

• Östliches Zentralbergisch (including Velbert, Neviges, Vohwinkel and Heiligenhaus)
• Westliches Zentralbergisch (including Wülfrath, Erkrath, Gruiten and Mettmann)
• around Werden and Kettwig
• around Mülheim an der Ruhr, Oberhausen
• • • Wuppertal (including Barmen)
    • Wuppertal (including Elberfeld)
  • Wuppertal (including Cronenberg and Ronsdorf) and Remscheid
• • • around Solingen, Höhscheid, Wald, Gräfrath, Ohligs
    • around Hilden and Haan
    • around Mündelheim Sarcelles (talk) 17:32, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Klaus J. Mattheier (ed.): Aspekte der Dialekttheorie. Tübingen 1983, p. 76 has the following areas with one place mentioned each:

• • Werden
  • • Cronenberg
    • Elberfeld
      • Barmen
  • Mülheim
  • Velbert
  • Breitscheid
• • • Mündelheim
    • Solingen
    • Haan

A paper by Wiesinger in Neuere Forschungen in Linguistik und Philologie. Aus dem Kreise seiner Schüler Ludwig Erich Schmitt zum 65. Geburtstag gewidmet, 1975 has ''Randbergisch'' as sperate varieties and not one. Sarcelles (talk) 07:22, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Mündelheim, Solingen and Haan are in a category labelled quite differently from the others in the penultimate source. This would suggest a major difference from them. Also, Werden and Cronenberg are in one subcategory each, the representation of Cronenberg and other places due to the very fine subdivison of the varieties around Cronenberg. Neuere Forschungen in Linguistik und Philologie. Aus dem Kreise seiner Schüler Ludwig Erich Schmitt zum 65. Geburtstag gewidmet, 1975, p. 82 has the same scheme.

This is portrayed in the article likewise concerning several dialects.

However, the other varieties as shown on page 82 are the following ones, the first place the one used exemplarily by the source entered today above.

• Mülheim an der Ruhr, Oberhausen, Dümpten, Heißen
• [[Werden]], [[Heisingen]], Kupferdreh, Bredeney
• [[Haan]], Hilden
• Solingen, Hörscheid, Solingen-Wald, Ohligs
• Barmen
• Elberfeld
• Cronenberg, Remscheid, Ronsdorf

Sarcelles (talk) 10:45, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Cornelissen's classification

I don't think this[1][2] is a good idea. Only two out the four major groups (excluding the two groups Westphalian and Moselle Franconian that are only peripherically covered) in Cornelissen's classification lie within the Rhenish fan. Also, the Rhenish fan extends all the way up to Speyer (and includes virtually all of Hesse) which is way out of the scope Cornelissen's work. OTOH, all dialects spoken in the Bergisches Land are included in the range of Cornelissen's classification, so the latter is more relevant to this article than to the article Rhenish fan. Austronesier (talk) 11:01, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

There are several other schemes in this article. This is better to be divided betwee the article Rhenish fan, which currently is about similar ideas, and maybe the article Rhinelandic. Sarcelles (talk) 16:05, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ostbergisch

I request a comment on its quality, see also East Bergish. Sarcelles (talk) 07:10, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, Paderborn lässt grüßen... A dictionary entry for a term that is attested in a wide range of texts is of course ok, but the definition turns Wiktionary into a private POV encyclopedia. If you feel there is something wrong, take it to the Tea Room over there. Btw, as an on-off Wiktionarian I don't agree with this edit of yours[3]. WT is a dictionary. –Austronesier (talk) 18:27, 10 April 2024 (UTC)