Talk:Battle of Surabaya

Better picture

I have uploaded a better version of the opening picture with proper attribution. IxK85 (talk) 12:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Figures for Allied troops

The figures for both Allied forces (30,000) and casualties (2,000) are too high. The maximum strength was more like 24,000 (18,000 men of 5th Indian Division and 6,000 men of 49th Indian Infantry Brigade). Also I'm fairly sure that 2,000 KIA figure relates to the whole of Java throughout the British occupation, not the battle in Surabaya. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IxK85 (talk • contribs) 13:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

There is a serious error in para 2 when it says 6000 British Indian troops perished. Later in the article it says 600 died. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.253.4.12 (talk) 05:38, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

New article

This is just info copied from the Indonesian National Revolution. Articles needs refining. --Merbabu 12:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Sources

This article only covers some aspects of the events. We need to do more work. Here are some sources (no doubt there will be some contradictions between sources and POV but we can manage that!).

• [1]
• [2]
• [3]
• [4]

I am sure there are many more out there, and i'd like to find some journals and books from the period.--Merbabu 04:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC) great job Merbabu!

Previous discussion

This discussion was moved from Nielswik's and Merbabu's talk page I'm sorry it has untidy layout because it was combined from two different talk page. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 06:04, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I think we need Battle of Surabaya article. That battle was pretty heroic and significant in Indonesian history. There is a section talking about the battle on Indonesian National Revolution, but I think we need separate article. How to request an article in WikiProject Indonesia? Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 12:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Created. :) It needs work so good on you for volunterring. I suggest for a start references, sub-headings, even pics. And I think we can maybe shorten the section now in Indonesian National Revolution--Merbabu 12:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

this picture is very famous when talking about Battle of Surabaya, but I don't know of its copyright status. I saw the picture everywhere, can I assume that picture is free use? Thanks. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 13:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Re Bung Tomo pic, one can't assume any pic is free of copyright restrictions. I think there is a good chance it is though. I will get back to you on that one. I hope we can use it. And have a look at this pic - [5] - i love it! Do you think it is the actual flag incident? --Merbabu 13:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Cool. Flag incident in Hotel Yamato is also regarded as heroic incident by Indonesians. They tore down blue part of Dutch Red-White-Blue flag, so the flag became Red and White. Cool, isn't it? Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 14:10, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I also had a great high resolution photo of General Mallaby's bombed car, but now I can't find it. --Merbabu 14:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Found it! [6] Do you think it is the car? I thought it would be more damaged. Also, this: [[7] ]--Merbabu 14:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Great :) Nielswik_(talk) 13:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether it is Mallaby's car. I have not seen that pic before. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 14:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I swapped some of the stats around in the info box. I am sure it is correct now, but change it back if I am wrong. By the way, what does 100,000 mean? It has no info. See diff: [8] --Merbabu 02:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice. According to Indonesian Heritage sources, 100,000 was irregulars. you mistakenly deleted it here[9]. 20,000 is member of TKR (Tentara Keamanan Rakyat). TKR was formed by ex-member of Peta and some Heiho. During Japanese occupation, the Japs trained some Indonesians. They said Heiho was trained to fight Allies in the battlefront, and Peta was trained to defend Indonesia in case Allies attacks. That's why they are different from the 100,000 irregulars. I assumed the 100,000 irregulars were normal citizens who fought voluntarily. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 04:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it appears that it just might be the car. This makes more sense now that it seems the grenade was thrown from the car, not at the car. RC Smith claimed that although he throw the greande Mallaby was actually shot moments before (Smith seems to have been in the car). Anyway, the sources: [10], then click on "Detail". I wonder if we can use this??? --Merbabu 05:10, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Re mallaby death, i'm unclear who actually caused mallaby's death. But I'll read your sources. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 05:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

regarding hotel yamato pic? can we use it as fair use? the rational may be historical event, and no alternative available. what about bung tomo pic. May it be free of copyright? I don't think the photographer of that pic ever copyrighted his photograph. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 05:30, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Re Mallaby death - read the pdf "Who Killed Malaby". It quotes direct eyewitnesses. It is all interesting but the most relevant pages are perhaps pages 98 to 99 as printed on the text (or 12 & 13 in the pdf). A lot of websites say "killed in an explosion" but I cannot find a direct source that actually says the explosion killed him. There is a lot of info that can be used for background for the article. I haven't had time yet to incorporate it. Regarding your questions on photos, maybe put the Bung Tomo photo in explaining fair use (although WP:FU says photos can't be used just to show what people look like - although, as you say, it is anonymous). I might try and see if I can also include the car photo. The best is the Hotel picture - that captures a moment that can't be repeated. Maybe we should put all this discussion onto the article talk page for the benefit of others. --Merbabu 05:38, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I added Bung tomo pic and hotel yamato pic. they are found in goverment archive, making it in public domain. Does this pic (scene of the battle) classify as fair use? [11]. Peace. --Nielswik_(talk) 03:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Did the Dutch realize the strength of the Indonesians

The article mentions twice that after the battle the Dutch realised the strength of the Indonesians.
Can somebody say who?
I have read something about the independence struggle of Indonesia and most Dutch historians pointed out that the Dutch and especially the Dutch government underestimated the strength and support of the revolt. General van Mook was one of the first Dutchmen and was forced to resign this opinion.
Scafloc (talk) 18:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

honorific

i don't want to edit it out, since i don't know if any additional reference can be found in effect the first name of "pluegman" (wich resembles a german name spelled in dutch btw.) however the guy is described in colonial terms as "mr." (wich would only be formally right in dutch had he been a graduate in law), his opponent's however are in the same colonial terminology described without any honorific. ofcourse it is funny to an extend to see racist bias like that so persistent.

Next i have my doubts about the aforementioned point(that surabaya raised dutch awareness of public support), after being liberated from a japanese camp (so in 1945-46), my mothers first memory's concerning the indonesian independence became immediatly accute (the case was all over the news, the media and the topic of daily conversation) so i must conclude the dutch were immediatly aware that the struggle had a wide public support. now that has never been so much of a question because in the dutch context it has been quitte clear attempts towards indonesian independence are just as old as the dutch militairy imposition of their rule.24.132.171.225 (talk) 00:32, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I don´t think you realize that a lot of people in the Netherlands really believed that only a small minority of the Indonesian people wanted independence. For the Dutch, Soekarno was a traitor because he had cooperated with the Japanese. Therefore they tried to negotiate with other Indonesian leaders (for instance dr. Sjahrir) and ignoring the fact that those "reasonable Indoensians" also wanted independence! The position of van Mook is interesting because he went to Indonesia as a hardliner (believing that the mass of the Indonesians were content with Dutch rule) but very soon realised the support for the independence movement. Scafloc (talk) 12:26, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Dutch supported by Japanese?

Under the subheader "Background" it is stated as follows:

"On 19 September 1945, a group of Dutch internees supported by the Japanese raised the Dutch flag outside the Hotel Yamato (formerly Hotel Oranje) in Surabaya, East Java. "

And then later it is stated that the Japanese supported the Indonesians.

Is this an error or did this really happen? 175.144.229.44 (talk) 03:42, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Dutch troops in Surubaya

The article mentioning Dutch troops in Surabaya. There were no Dutch troops in Surabaya, only internees ( mainly woman and children ) October 28, 1945 the RAPWI transport( Recovery Allied Prisoners of War and Internees )standing under British leadership, from Gubeng district. fell into an Indonesian ambush. Almost all the civilians were murdered, including all the British Indian soldiers.

Here are all the documents of the transport;

http://www.archiefvantranen.nl/dossier/documenten-gubeng-transport/--ArmTheInsane (talk) 20:29, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Battle of Surabaya. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080502181728/http://www.petra.ac.id:80/eastjava/ancient/city/Surabaya/orange.htm to http://www.petra.ac.id/eastjava/ancient/city/Surabaya/orange.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 17:50, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Battle of Surabaya. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080502181728/http://www.petra.ac.id/eastjava/ancient/city/Surabaya/orange.htm to http://www.petra.ac.id/eastjava/ancient/city/Surabaya/orange.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 06:06, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Indonesian sources.

Most sources are from Western articles, is this still neutral? --2405:4800:148C:A16F:CD5D:7055:B9FB:871E (talk) 07:16, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Captain R. C. Smith's account of the Death of Brigadier Mallaby

This extract from my father's unpublished autobiography adds some more detail to the death of Brigadier Mallaby.

"On about the third day, the brigadier set off with one of the local leaders to try and stop the fighting. After he had been gone some time, the second-in-command sent me and Mac, another liaison officer to join him, with the idea that we should do the same thing in different parts of the town. We met up with him in a square full of angry Indonesians. His car was in the middle of the square: to the left of it was a river, and to the right was a building with a company of our troops. The Indonesians demanded that they should be withdrawn to the harbour, and, as this was what he had wanted in the first place, the brigadier agreed, and sent another officer who had been with him into the building to give his orders. This was to be an agreed withdrawal, and there was no question of our troops laying down their arms and surrendering. Our position in the middle of a hostile crowd looked more uncertain. I was beginning to feel certain that we would be killed. I had not prayed much during the war, but I prayed then, as much for dignity as for escape.

We were disarmed, and pushed into the back seat of the car, with the brigadier on the side nearest the river, Mac in the middle, and me nearest the house. Mac had a grenade in his pocket which he passed to me. It seemed of little use, but I pushed it down between the seat and the side of the car. It was only later that we found out what happened next. The Indonesians brought up a machine-gun to cover the door, whereupon someone in the house countermanded the brigadier's orders. All we knew was that firing started. We crouched down behind the front seat, and I could see a man with a rifle coming up to the opposite side of the car. At that point I shut my eyes. I heard a bang, and thought "That's the brigadier"; another bang "That's Mac, I'm next". There was a third bang, and I was still there, followed by another, and then he went away. Soon there were whispers "Are you all right?" - "Yes, are you?" - and incredibly none of us had been touched. I can only think that the man with the rifle had been using the car as cover while he fired at the house.

We sat there, not daring to move, and hoping that we would be mistaken for dead. The battle continued for some time, the most disturbing thing being when someone started using mortars. It grew dark, and the firing gradually stopped. Two Indonesian youths came up to the car and tried to push it. When they could not move it, they tried to set it on fire, but failed. Then one of them came to the brigadier's window. There was no point then in shamming dead, so the brigadier asked to see their commander. The youth reached in through the window and shot him, and then the two of them ducked down by the side of the car. Mac and I heard the brigadier die, and as we would obviously be next, it seemed to be the time to use the grenade. Once the lever is released, there is a four-second delay before it goes off. To prevent it being pushed back into the car, I released the lever, counted two, and lobbed it out through the open window. There was a loud explosion, and no further activity from the youths. Mac and I dived out through my door, ran round the car, and made for the river, expecting a burst of fire any moment. There was a man swimming in the river who challenged us, but we ignored him and dived in. The hardest thing about undressing in the water is getting boots off, and I was very glad that I was only wearing the local equivalent of desert boots. As soon as we were undressed, Mac and I set off to swim down to the sea where we knew we would find some of our troops. We had to go very slowly because we could hear people about, any of whom was a potential enemy. We had to lie up for a time in some reeds, while I could feel small fish taking experimental nibbles. Further on there was a boat moored against the bank but pulled by the current into mid-stream. We dared not go out into the middle of the river, but trapped against the boat were two bloated corpses. Our only option was to dive underneath them, but unfortunately I came up a little too soon, and can still remember the rubbery feel of the dead body against my bare back.

As we made progress, we began to feel a little more hopeful, until we came round a bend and saw a bridge in front of us, with a pile of burning timber in front of it right across the river. We had to go on: Mac elected to dive under the wood while I was afraid of being trapped there, and decided to go over the top of it. We made a run for it, and as we started we were fired on from the bridge. We both got safely underneath, but it was obvious that we would never get out the other side. Then Mac suddenly remembered that the bridge should be held by a company from his battalion, and called out to them. To our joy, a voice replied in Urdu and moments later we were out of the water, and talking to the company commander. I was wearing a pair of underpants and a wristwatch, and Mac was wearing a wristwatch, but we were safe. Somebody noticed that I had a flesh wound on my left arm which I had not noticed, but presumably had been caused as we ran for the bridge. A field dressing was put on, and we were taken the short distance back to the docks. We gave our account as quickly as possible, and were then taken to the frigate "Nith" where I was given the captain's sea cabin. We had made it." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:A062:BD00:3DBC:CBBE:C9D3:5D96 (talk) 12:48, 25 November 2020 (UTC) 2A02:C7F:A062:BD00:3DBC:CBBE:C9D3:5D96 (talk) 15:44, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

British occupation until 1946?

It says Surabaya was occupied by the British from 1945 to 1946, does that mean Surabaya or any other part that the british had taken was part of the British territory? Mhatopzz (talk) 16:56, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Check this section of the main revolution article - Indonesian_National_Revolution#Allied_occupation --Merbabu (talk) 00:39, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Death of Brigadier Mallaby really needs fixing

Battle_of_Surabaya#Death_of_Brigadier_Mallaby - Last few sentences are written in such poor English that I can't even. No, WP:IWONTFIXIT, just letting you know. byteflush _Talk 01:16, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Hey, came here after fixing it to see if anyone had mentioned it. I've taken a crack at it. KiraLiz1 | she/her 14:59, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Now that I read what I wrote again, sorry if my message sounded rude, I just wasn't sure how to fix it myself. byteflush _Talk 18:54, 10 November 2022 (UTC)