Talk:Battle of Pinkie

Comments

Why is it called "Pinkie Cleugh"? 69.137.220.179 01:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

And how does one pronounce "Cleugh"? If it were a person's name it would probably have an IPA respelling; one would be in order here.--Haruo (talk) 00:52, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I live opposite Pinkie Cleuch Primary School. The Scots word "cleuch" has the same meaning as "clough" in English, but the pronunciation differs in that "cleuch" has a guttural sound at its end, whereas in Northern England the final consonants are are pronounced "cluff". Renata (talk) 10:53, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Good description of battle.

My one quibble is with the list of 'clans' which smacks of the worst sort of nineteenth century Scottish romanticism.

While the term may well be valid for Gaelic-speaking highlanders where the fictive kinship of a chieftain to his followers was an important factor, it is ridiculous applying it to lowlanders like the 'Grahams' and 'Armstrongs' who had neither the word nor the concept until Sir Walter Scott's generation stared systematically falsifying their country's history.

I've added some inline citations, and I wholeheartedly agree the list of clans is unencyclopedic. I've vote to delete it. - PKM (talk) 20:22, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I third that, the list should be removed.--Celtus (talk) 06:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Removing; I'll see if I have some cite-worthy references to the Border "names" involved. - PKM (talk) 21:06, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Grahams and Armstrongs are border names and would have been described interchangeably as clans at the time even in Scotland itself. Unless you want to argue that Sit Walter Scott went back in time to the 16th century to rewrite acts of the scottish parliament to include the word clan referring to borderers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.180.97.243 (talk) 14:07, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

There Were Spaniard Mercenaries

In English pay. With matchlocks. Pedro de Gamboa (Sir Peter Gambold, 'The Biscayne Captain'). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 10:15, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

• Playing games*

i note that this has been described as an English and Italian and German victory,this is clearly clutching at straws,it was an ENGLISH victory with some or a small number of italian and germans,however it was lead by the english,the navy was english and the vast majority of forces were English,to say this was esentially a coalition victory is just political correctness.Bullseye30 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bullseye30 (talk • contribs) 17:54, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

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Casualties section

I disagree with The Rambling Man's tagging of this section as unreferenced. Referring to this version of the article, as I understand it, the English named casualties are referenced by ref [38] apart from Sir John Clere's unnamed son (ref [39]). The Scottish named casualties are referenced by refs [38] and [40], with the exception of Thomas Brodie (ref [41]) and Sir James Gordon (ref [42]). Mjroots (talk) 06:38, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Last pitched battle between England and Scotland

Maybe this is a category issue, but there were several pitched battles between English and Scottish armies during the Civil War, a whole century after Pinkie. Dunbar, Preston and finally Worcester. Are we saving that the armies were Parliamentarian and Royalist rather than English and Scottish? PeterAtJET (talk) 16:30, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

This could be a matter of interpretation, but it was certainly the last pitched battle before the Union of the Crowns. BTW, I question if this article has the right title, its common name could be just the Battle of Pinkie. PatGallacher (talk) 22:21, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree about the name being the 'Battle of Pinkie'. Although there is a place called 'Pinkie Cleuch', 'Pinkie' in the name of battle was not shorthand for it, and I don't recall any contemporary or sixteenth-century mentions of the 'battle of Pinkie Cleugh'. Neither does the article make any citations or reference for the name 'Pinkie Cleugh', and the name 'battle of Pinkie Cleugh' is not in use in published literature. Several tomb inscriptions in England call it 'Musselburgh field'. I suspect to a non-local 16th-century Scottish ear the name 'Pinkie' would convey the idea of a place by Musselburgh and 'Pinkie Cleuch' would be over-precise. But really these various arguments are over-thinking: it would simply be better if wiki was in line with other literature. See also 'Loch Leven Castle'.Unoquha (talk) 23:00, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 25 April 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved buidhe 00:11, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

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Battle of Pinkie Cleugh → Battle of Pinkie – This appears to be the more common name. I have usually seen it referred to as the Battle of Pinkie, Historic Scotland's website uses this name [1], and if you look at "what links here" and the External links then this is the more common name. Also, I suggest we should avoid a title which many readers might be unsure how to pronounce. PatGallacher (talk) 23:21, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Clear common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:45, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Place names

This article needs a sentence or two on the place names "Pinkie" and "Pinkie Cleugh". I see above that this was requested back in 2006, and there has been no response. (A specific request for help with the pronunciation of "Cleugh" was answered on talk, but it needs to be in the article, and needs to use IPA.) I gather from other talk-page contributions above that "Pinkie" and "Pinkie Cleugh" are two different places, and that the battle was at the former and is erroneously associated with the latter, but those remarks are vague and unsourced. Following the map reference in the article I come to maps of the battlefield and don't see either name. Neither of them appear anywhere else in Wikipedia, not even at the disambiguation page Pinkie. Clarifying variant terminology is non-trivial, and since this article is otherwise apparently well researched and presented, it would be great if those of you with access to the sources would deal with this. Thanks.

Incidentally, this new book should be mined for more recent scholarship. Doric Loon (talk) 07:38, 2 September 2022 (UTC)