Talk:Avro Tutor

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Despite extensive searching I was unable to find any article for this type under Avro 621 or Tutor in English, so have hurriedly knocked up something. Polish and German language Wikipedia both have articles more extensive than this about the type, unfoortunately I don't speak either language. I also don't know how to set up specification boxes - feel free to Wikify.

Production figures are very dubious. Some web sites also assert the type is used by Egypt (illustrated with photo of Egyptian Avro 626), Singapore and Hong Kong (appears to be confusion with RAF aircraft operated out of Singapore and Hong Kong). Winstonwolfe 02:03, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Jackson's cited (and usually reliable) book gives 795 (complete aircraft plus engineless frames) built at Avro in England, plus 57 in South Africa and 3 in Denmark. Total 855.TSRL (talk) 20:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I've had a good look at the production numbers given by Jackson which total 545 complete machines including the 60 licence built ones that he lists. If you count up all the aircraft he refers to, you get 543. Having looked at the CAA deregistered Tutors list, I think the reason is that he has counted, but not individually noted G-ABFL and 'M. In the Avro 626 article he lists the latter as an early 626 demonstrator, and in the 621 article notes G-ABFL as "tested to destruction" in the trainer trials. So you might say 544 was a better number.

I think the large number of engineless frames was a distraction, and don't know where most of them went: perhaps to 626's and other 621 derivatives?

The main omission in the 545 count are machines built in Greece, of which AJ makes no mention. I've included the 29 exported in the count, but not the 30+ supposedly built under licence. Looked in JAWA 1942 who list the GAF equipment pre-Italian invasion 11/40, but there is no mention of the Tutors (or any training a/c). The GAF reference (now in English) is rather vague beyond the first 30. More definite info would be good.

Also: can find nothing on Tutors in Iraq. Any info, anyone?TSRL (talk) 10:01, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Another Tutor?

I was rather surprised to find this article, which isn't easy due to the number in the middle of the name (wiki searching leaves much to be desired) and found a biplane. That's because I was looking for the Type 688 Tutor, a four-engine low-wing passenger monoplane!

I'd like to do an article on that Tutor, but that would seem to suggest that this one should be renamed. Any suggestions? Perhaps "Avro Tutor (Type 621)" or "Avro Tutor (biplane)"?

Maury (talk) 13:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Maury: the Avro type 688 was the Tudor (as in Elizabeth I), not Tutor; so no conflict.TSRL (talk) 21:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

By the way, searching on Avro Tudor takes you to an article on the Tudor 2 (type 689; suggest you look at this before covering the 688 Tudor 1. TSRL (talk) 21:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

My duh! I'm going to fix this by placing a see also in this article, as well as removing the 621 from the name. Maury (talk) 19:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Greek-built Avro Tutors

I see that some material I had added ("at least 60 built in Greece" has been corrected). Actually, the number of 621's built in Greece is no mystery, they are exactly 61 , designations E80 to E140, while another 21 (of the 29 originally imported from the UK) had been completely rebuilt. Even if one looks at the HAF site (link at the end of the article), it mentions 59 Tutors (i.e., 29 imported and 30 built) and "another 30 being built" i.e. a number of about 60. I will not edit the article, respecting the author's professional sensitivity to proof of information. Just note that there is extremely little reference to KEA's activity in international publications, not surprisingly given the Greeks' [this is us!] attitude towards recording of our own industrial history. Regards, Skartsis (talk) 14:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

• • Skartsis: Looking back on the article revisions after a break, I'm inclined to include the 30 waiting to be built, so long as we leave in a caution. Looking at the projected construction rates suggests completion by May 1940, well before any invasion disruption. I've therefore modified the text to include them, noting numbers are not quite firm. I was trying to make it clear that we seemed to have definite numbers on all 621s apart from the KEA build. On that, two questions: where does the serial block info (E80-E140) come from, and is it reliable/citable? And do we know if they were associated to particular aircraft, or could it have been a block issued in advance, anticipating the build (and therefore not proving the construction)? It would be very satisfying to remove these last doubts (even if you don't share them!). Best, TSRL (talk) 20:39, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

• • I have to say that I truly appreciate the attention to detail and proof of sources you exhibit - I wish this was the case in more books and other media! My main sources are two, Mr. Alexandros Avdis, an airplane engineer who was working with KEA in 1940 (yes, he is in his 90's) and Mr. Nikos Christofyllis an author (historian) - and good friend - who is with the Hellenic Air Force (actually, he is "behind" much of the info provided at HAF sites). I leave it up to you to decide how reliable the above are, and how you present the information. In fact, I liked the fact that you kept a "reservation" as long as you weren't 100% sure. Regards, Skartsis (talk) 16:06, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

...to continue on the above, what is (unfortunately) a "mystery", is the modifications on the Greek 621s. Almost all of their production was done in 1939 and 1940 i.e. (please correct me if I am wrong) after the end of production in the UK. I know that the entire plane - except engine - was built by KEA, and, additionally, 21 of the imported copies were rebuilt (that means, possibly, brought up to upgraded version). KEA files were destroyed during one of its many moves to different location, thus it is very difficult to find answers on that. We'll keep trying. Skartsis (talk) 16:08, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Development

This needs something on the development of the the design from the initial 621 Mongoose Trainer to the 621 Tutor. The original aircraft was quite different in detail and unsatisfactory as a trainer.Sir smellybeard (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:49, 27 September 2011 (UTC).