Talk:Australian Formula 3

Australian Formula 3

Shouldn't this refer to the Formula category that ended in the 70's? F3 in Australia is now FIA Formula 3 and there is no such thing as Australian Formula 3 in the current CAMS manual. At a minimum ANF3 should be mentioned.xbgs351 04:16, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Not really. Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia, so referring to the article as Australian Formula 3 is to distinguish it from British Formula 3, the F3 Euroseries, French F3, German F3, Italian F3, South American F3 and so on. We should not let pedanticism get in the way of lay people understanding the content of the article. Always remember in composing a Wiki article that sometimes it will be necessary to compromise the content to make it understandable to the bulk of Wiki browsers who may not know a thing about the intracacies of how Australians label their open wheel raicng classes. --Falcadore 06:11, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

You would agree that a section on ANF3 should be added? Xbgs351 03:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

As there would not be a great level of detail about ANF3, and also additionally since ANF3 was probably related to the earlier incarnation of international Formula 3, I'd prefer to see it as within the same article. Also, was it ever referred to as ANF3? If not we should not be inventing history that did not exist previously. I think the term Australian Formula Three is big enough for both categories in the same way that the Australian Touring Car Championship is not broken up into seperate articles for Appendix J, Group C, Group A. --Falcadore 06:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes there was ANF1, ANF2 and ANF3Xbgs351 01:16, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Considering the number of people that might potentially be interested in ANF3, I think this article can cover it quite adequately. For the majority of people Formula 3 is Formula 3. Let's not subdivide things too far. A question, was ANF3 related to the F3 in use in Europe at the time? --Falcadore 02:38, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Whatever happened to the ANF3 content? --Falcadore (talk) 03:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be better to rename this article "Australian Formula 3 Championship" as that seems to be and is likely to remain the dominant aspect of the article. GTHO 08:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

As the series is not actually called "Australian Formula 3 Championship", but rather the Australian Drivers' Championship that's probably adding to confusion. --Falcadore (talk) 03:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Reference to [1] will reveal that there is indeed an "Australian Formula 3 Championship" and that there has been since 2001. From 2005, CAMS has awarded the "Australian Drivers' Championship" based on the results of the AF3C. Please refer to [2] GTHO (talk) 09:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

You know I know that, and you know that's also a technicality lost on fair percentage of wikipedia's audience. Just as there is also still an Australian Touring Car Championship awarded but everyone calls them the V8 Supercar champion. OK, how about, the series is not called "Australian Formula 3 Championship" anymore, with the ADC tag given greater precedence except when mentioning the series sponsor I belatedly note. ADC or Kumho AF3C, but not AF3C. --Falcadore (talk) 15:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

(indent reset) The following question was recently sent to CAMS: “I understand from CAMS Bulletin B08/014 that the winner of the 2008 Australian Formula 3 Championship will be the winner of the 2008 Australian Drivers’ Championship. Does it then follow that second in the AF3C means second in the ADC, and the same for third etc? Does it also follow that 1st in the National Class of the AF3C mean first in the National Class of the ADC? Or is the ADC simply an award for the winner of the AF3C?” The response was “As far as I am aware, the ADC is simply an award for the winner of the AF3C”. Perhaps we should document the full 2008 AF3C results in a 2008 AF3C article and limit any 2008 ADC results record to the winner only, with suitable cross-referencing of course. 2005, 2006 & 2007 AF3Cs could be treated the same way. At the moment we have an article entitled Australian Formula 3 which is almost entirely about the Australian Formula 3 Championship and then when you click on the table entry for the 2007 AF3C you are directed to a page headed 2007 Australian Drivers’ Championship. Now that is confusing!!! GTHO (talk) 10:50, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

No more so than any other category... which leads into, is this practice only for Formula 3 or has it extended backwards through Formula Holden/AF2/Pacific/5000 etc. --Falcadore (talk) 02:01, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Gold Star

The top paragraph of the article make it sound like AF2 was the Goldstar. It was once, but was Formula 4000 most recently.Xbgs351 03:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Bruno Senna

Removed him as AusF3 alumni. One non-champ event is a very tenuous connection. --Falcadore 11:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Kumho Tyres

Unless Kumho has sponsored the entire history of Formula 3, unlikely as it probably pre-dates Kumho, then reference to a sponsor really belongs on the page relevant to that year's championship, like here! --Falcadore 02:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

New content

Where can I put this? "Formula Three was never run under national championship status although Shead won many State titles, including the Stillwell Series, four times, enequalled by any other diver." Cheuered Flag, May 1981, P33 61.69.164.231 (talk) 00:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

There has not been much expansions of the differences between old and new AF3 and their respective histories - perhaps this could be started? Although I must say that sounds more appropriate as a Brian Shead fact than a ANF3 fact. --Falcadore (talk) 00:29, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I have made a start on the older F3 cars, but I don't have any literature from pre 1980 when these cars raced. I have also added a picture of Hugh Gartley's F3 and Mk6 Cheetah that originally ran in ANF3 as well as a modern F3. The picture location needs tidying up. xbgs351@tpg.com.au (talk) 23:21, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Alterred look

This new look is frankly hideous. Anyway you can tone it down? Plus champion is the only name that needs to appear. Additional details belongs on the indvidual pages for each year. No other racing article looks this ugly, why the idea? Also - Bruno Senna's race car picture against the section on historic F3 looks a bit misplaced. Trying really hard to not remove the lot, want to know exactly what you are trying to achieve? --Falcadore (talk) 11:09, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

This is the standard motorsport champions table being introduced all across motorsport now. I agree there are some details on the chart which are not filled in especially for drivers from the earlier years but that is because the information from those years seems hard to find. Officially Mr X (talk) 18:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Where else is this being introduced? I've not seen it before? --Falcadore (talk) 21:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

A1 Grand Prix, Superleague Formula, GP2 Series, GP2 Asia Series, Euro Formula 3000, World Series by Renault, Formula Renault V6 Eurocup, Formula V6 Asia, Formula Three Euroseries, International Formula Master, European F3 Open Championship, Eurocup Formula Renault 2.0, Formula Nippon, Asian Formula Three Championship, Renault Eurocup, Speedcar Series, Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters, SEAT León Eurocup, All-Japan Formula Three, Formula Palmer Audi, Historic Formula One Championship and Toyota Racing Series so far. Officially Mr X (talk) 21:40, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

What does the "Team Champion" column actually represent? GTHO (talk) 00:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

How many of these were not done by you? They should ALL be reverted, they look uniformly terrible. --Falcadore (talk) 01:15, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

In your opinion - what on earth is wrong with them?!? Who are you to decide they are all to be reverted? They are informative, accurate, comprehensive and give the top 3 of drivers for the year even on pages where no page for the season exists. They also match with the existing format on driver pages where the table that says what championships they have competed in shows any 1sts, 2nds or 3rds in the medal colours (e.g. Fernando Alonso, Lucas Di Grassi, Sébastien Bourdais or any other driver). I'm sorry you're not that keen on the new tables but give them time and rational judgement: think what service Wikipedia is supposed to be providing. Officially Mr X (talk) 17:38, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

They use of colour and bold text is garish and overpowering, it swamps the rest of the article. A visual hash which draws far too much attention. It is also an unneccessary level of detail for a summary page. Yes top three is more information than just champion, but top ten is more information than three. Why not top 20? Why not list the whole pointscore.

And leaving aside being called irrational for a moment, and that you lied by stating its the standard when its something only you have implemented and that WPMS knew virtually nothing about it, its not just my opinion. Applauding enthusiastic work is one thing, this is just bad, and I am particularly sorry you can't see that. --Falcadore (talk) 20:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

AF3 Modern era – when did it begin?

We seem to have some conflicting references re the start year of the modern era of AF3. We have “International Motor Racing Guide, Peter Higham, David Bull Publishing, page 565” apparently quoting a 1997 AF3 series winner and “Formula 3 Survey, Karl-Friedrich Katabian, International Race Results and Data Association, page 27 and 715” quoting a 1998 series winner, whereas the formula3.com.au references from webarchive (see 2 LITRE ENGINES VINDICATED - 31/5/1999 and FIA FORMULA 3 ACCEPTED IN AUSTRALIA - 30/4/2000) suggest that it all began in 1999.

It would appear that the formula3.com site used to quote winners back to 1997, (see Standings 1997 and Standings 1998) however the 1997 & 1998 winners are no longer recognised on the AF3 site. (see Series Stats)

What’s more the two quoted winners for 97 & 98, Wayne Ford & David Bruce, are shown on the Australia Formula 2 website as winners of the Formula 2 series in those two years.

Does anyone have any references from the time to support the case for the 1997 or 1999 commencement of the modern era of AF3? GTHO (talk) 02:34, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

AF2 had used F3 chassis for some time by 1997. For the 1997 series full F3 specification cars were allowed for the first time but were not sufficient in numbers to run a stand-alone pointscore until 1999. But I don't have a handy reference for that. --Falcadore (talk) 03:50, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

It's fair to say that F3 chassis have been part of AF2 virtually from the begining of the "single cam" AF2 (eg Ralt RT1, Ralt RT3). The case for 1999 rather than 1997 being the year that F3 cars first competed for points in an Australian series is further supported by the fact that the 1997 points table at standings97 lists a Mallala round on 24/8/97 and the Official Programme for that meeting lists two races for the "Bib Stillwell BMW National Formula 2 Series" but makes no mention of F3. What's more the cars in these F2 races are all listed as 1600cc, with no mention of any 2000cc engines. The F2 entry list includes the so called "1997 F3" winner Wayne Ford, driving a 1600cc Ralt RT34, ie an AF2 car. So it would seem that the 1997 series won by Wayne Ford was the National Formula 2 Series not an AF3 series. The CAMS manuals for 1997, 1998 & 1999 don't include F3 in the "Specifications of Automobiles " section, but page 7-33 of the 1999 Manual does include a 2000cc F3 engine option for AF2 cars. This is not mentioned in the AF2 section of the 97 or 98 editions and ties in with the 2 LITRE ENGINES VINDICATED - 31/5/1999 reference. I don't believe we should put too much faith in International sources which claim that an AF3 "series" dates from 1997 when we have local evidence in CAMS manuals, race programmes and category websites which suggest otherwise. GTHO (talk) 22:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I do have some contacts within AF3, all ask them. --Falcadore (talk) 22:47, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

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