Talk:Aunt Jemima/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

White Actress?

As far as I can tell, this section:

"The actress Aubrey Andreozzi recently depicted her in a Thursday morning television program, Breakfast at the Firepit. She had chosen to be a "white Jemima," wearing only the apron and bandanna."

Is inaccurate in that Aubrey Andreozzi does not appear to be an actress, but a college student (only references to this name are this article and a facebook account.) Also, there is no record of any such television program other than its mention in this article. Deadseaturtle (talk) 09:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Gallery of Advertisements featuring Aunt Jemima

I'd like to add the following link within the main article. It shows Aunt Jemima as depicted in the advertising artwork of the 30's, 40's, and 50's and early 2000's.

http://advertising.tjs-labs.com/gallery-view?advertiser=AUNT+JEMIMA&op=AND&span=1000&sort=B

Please advise soonest.--Lionel.Mandrake 21:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I suspect this user to be a sock of User:Mycroft.Holmes, owner of the site. It's spam. Femto 14:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I disabled adblock and loaded the site in the link. Here, advertising refers to the fact that this is a gallery of ads, NOT actual ads intended to allow the site owner to suck profit from the victim browsing the website. There were no banner ads or any other such pollution on the website. Its not currently spam. Justify the original categorization of the site gallery as spam - has the content changed? Zaphraud 05:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

More examples have been added since the original post, but the overall content is as you see it now. In addition, examples of ethnic stereotypes used in advertising have been grouped together in this link. --Mycroft.Holmes (talk) 22:55, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Miscellaneous

Nancy Green was not the Aunt Jemima at the 1893 World's Fair, it was an unknown woman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.168.41.108 (talk) 00:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

The line about her "actual" name being "Aunt Crunch" doesn't make any sense. "Crunch" is Cap'n Crunch's last name. I wouldn't call my Aunt Jane Smith "Aunt Smith", would I? Ξ

Wasn't Aunt Jemima from Canada? I heard she was a while ago. This article is well written, but reads like it is from the PR department. The controversy section is too small. GilliamJF 09:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I am fed up of people online saying "No! Not the name Jemima! THey'll get teased about pancake mixtures for their entire life!" Now, i do live in the UK, but i have HONESTLY, NEVER EVER had someone bring this up about my name. *sighs* There are LOADS of people my age (teenager) who are called Jemima so if you think it is old fashioned then HUH?? Got a problem. Write. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.1.16 (talk) 21:24, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Please, Aunt Jemima's kercheif wasn't that big of a controversy. CapoMafia 12:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Can someone delete the pointless line at the top, "Aunt Jermima is a fucking kike"? I attempted to, but as a newbie I couldn't figure out how since it's not on the text screen available; one of you Wiki-wizards should have no problem. (Or, failing removal, please cite a reference or source.) 4.142.228.254 08:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Re the statement She had chosen to be a "white Jemima," wearing only the apron and bandanna, but it worked well. Just who's opinion is it that this worked well??? I'd recommend that such bits of irrelevant personal tripe be removed. (I didn't think it "worked well". I thought it was goofy.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by BenStrauss (talk • contribs) 13:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Weasel Words, Sources?

"Many blacks" think this, "To many people" she is that. Also, where are the sources for the article? Sometime later I will come back and take out the weasel words, but it would be easiest for the author to cite the sources where he or she got them. KevinPuj 15:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Conflicts with Cream of Wheat

One article implies the use of African Americans as mascots/trademarks/etc. was rare in 1800s. One article says it was not. Although this article is better referenced than Cream of Wheat both statements could use references.

Roodog2k 18:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Aunt Jemima Depicted as a Slave

I'm not saying that the image was not racist or did not evoke a racist stereotype. But was it the intent of the company to portray a slave or a stereotypical servant? According to the article, the woman who was the basis for Aunt Jemima was born a slave. Thats one thing. But was there an intent to depict her as a slave on the boxes in the 1890s? I find this a dubious statement.

Roodog2k 18:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, later in the article, it quotes an advertisement from the 1920s (though without citation) that says she was a slave. So what of it? Zweifel 03:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the gallery of old advertisements, one of them says that "back on the plantation" Aunt Jemima made pancakes. I think this is a pretty clear indication that she was advertised as being a slave. Pageblank 17:01, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I've moved the reference [1] to the talkpage, it's a spammy link of dubious copyright status. Femto 16:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

POV

"While she has been made into a political figure, one must only dig a little deeper to discover the similarities we all may share with her, as people who must, from time to time, serve conflicting interests, in this ever more complex society. In the memory of Jemima, and others who shared her role or her name, we should all try to remember the humanity that inexorably links us all."

Wow. Whoever wrote that, I recommend you read what Wikipedia is not, especially Wikipedia is not a soapbox. This is not a personal attack by any means, but please keep these kinds of things to essays, and not encyclopedic articles. I'll be removing it. Stale Fries ^{taste better} 05:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Can someone please add this picture

This one is way better than the tiny one in the article.

http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/123050/2156444/2163220/2164526/03_AuntJ.gif 1947 ad, courtest of Jim Crow Museum of Racist Memorbilia

What is the copyright status of this image? Wikipedia can't accept media taken from other websites without proper rationale. (See the Wikipedia:Image use policy for details.) Generally, replacing one fair-use image with another should be avoided. - By the way, you can sign your posts by typing 4 tildes (~~~~) at the end of your comments. Femto 11:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Real Historical Aunt Jemima

Wasn't there a true historical Aunt Jemima who helped organize a town in Wales against Napolian? http://www.valleystream.co.uk/invasion.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.247.244.198 (talk) 21:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Any Relation to Aunt Betty

It seems interesting that the English Aunt Betty Brand (Tryton Foods) covers a similar range of products as Aunt Jemima (flagship product is frozen Yorkshire Pudding - but also do pancake mixes), with a brand name which seems to combine the typically Black American old lady Aunt Jemima, with the typically White American old lady Betty Crocker, and come up with the typical Northern England Yorkshire old lady Aunt Betty.

If calling an elder black friend of the family Aunty is racist, then it's a tradition that was well and truly alive in the mostly white communities of the North of England in the 60's - although not for black people but for white - Hardly anyone I knew did not have an "Aunty" Betty, Annie, or Nelly - all of whom were inevitably old and unrelated.

Times change and we change with them - usually for the better I think

78.32.193.115 (talk) 18:28, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Logo?

Shouldn't the lead picture be the actual Aunt Jemima Pancakes logo instead of music sheet page of a song that inspired the name 'Aunt Jemima'? After all most product pages at least have a (current) logo for it as the leading image.69.132.221.35 (talk) 07:22, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Not encyclopedia material

"Aunt Jemima was so impressed with her owners kindness, she devoted the rest of her life to bringing the blood, tears, and souls of her people steaming hot to the rest of White America for the rest of her life.". This won't do. An editor could insert a pungent quote here instead, with a citation. That's how the rest of us have to do it.--Wetman (talk) 17:30, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

"She embodied an early twentieth century idealized domesticity that was inspired by old southern hospitality."

Author! Author! Creative writing excellence. Blondesareeasy (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:24, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Amusing. This article dwells somewhat on the perceived racism, as brought out by A. J.'s slave origins and therefore the "blood, tears, and souls of her people" etc. The reference to "Beulah", the TV show, is especially gratuitous; we are moving into Stepin Fetchit terrotory there, and it's endless. However, there's something A. J. has in common with Uncle Ben and Rastus that isn't mentioned: there's also a perception (which I suppose one could also call racist, since it's based on race) that black people are better cooks than white people. Whether it's true or not is not the issue if it was used to promote food through advertising. I'd like to see something about that here. It may be worthy of an article by itself; I don't see any article in the wiki about race (racial issues) in advertising (in general) after a brief look. I found things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KFC#Allegation_of_racial_stereotyping but no general article... surely it's been studied. 72.179.53.2 (talk) 15:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC) Eric

Thanks, now that song makes sense!

Remember "Mistadobalina" by Del Tha Funkee Homosapien in 1991? I never understood this line "...resembles Aunt Jemima", I had thought it was just made up by people who did not know the actual line that he rapped here. -andy 85.179.119.87 (talk) 16:24, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Who's Recipe is it?

The article states that: "Rutt and Underwood's Pearl Milling Company faced a glutted flour market, so they sold their excess flour as a ready-made pancake mix in white paper sacks with a trade name (which Arthur F. Marquette dubbed the "last ready-mix"[3])".

The article does not state who actually invented the "ready-made pancake mix" formula. Did Rutt and Underwood also invent and trademark the word "pancake?" There appears to be some gaping holes in this history 98.94.76.56 (talk) 15:38, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140424192836/http://testaae.greenwood.com/doc_print.aspx?fileID=GR5184&chapterID=GR5184-561&path=books/greenwood to http://testaae.greenwood.com/doc_print.aspx?fileID=GR5184&chapterID=GR5184-561&path=books/greenwood
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140914000612/http://www.rfcexpress.com/lawsuits/trademark-lawsuits/illinois-northern-district-court/869653/d-w-hunter-jr-et-al-v-pepsico-inc-et-al/summary/ to http://www.rfcexpress.com/lawsuits/trademark-lawsuits/illinois-northern-district-court/869653/d-w-hunter-jr-et-al-v-pepsico-inc-et-al/summary/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110723032844/http://www.crazysven.com/gallery2/aunt_jemima to http://www.crazysven.com/gallery2/aunt_jemima

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External links modified

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Character separate from Performers

I've split the history section. In answer to the various edits that she was a "real person", it seems prudent to separate the character (and its origin) from the performers who portrayed the character, many of whom were actual cooks, who were inspirations for the logo (prior to the 1960s), and none of whom wore black face.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 17:51, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Miss Leading

The Aunt Jemima article has been edited by someone to include their extremist ideologies and to mislead individuals with false information. When reading the piece you are instantly bombarded with information attempting to persuade the reader into believing that everything about to company is wholeheartedly racist with absolutely no sources to back up these statements. This article should be written in such a way to be informative and none biased with actual facts about the companies history. During this time in American history, articles like these are only written for one purpose. To incite fear and anger to worsen the situation across the country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.3.122.55 (talk) 07:27, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

THROUGHLY SECONDED. Only a year ago, this article included information on Nancy GREEN, the ACTUAL creator of the entire brand. This articles neutrality is patently non-existent, this is pure and simple racist propaganda ('blacks aren't capable of creating a business, so we're gonna drop Mz. GREEN from the story'). You should be utterly ashamed of yourselves for pushing this große lüge. Whoever (all) I'd behind this should be permanently banned as racist ierologs. Absolutely disgusting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.10.167.226 (talk) 15:05, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Thirded, after reading the article it's clear there's quite a bit of political bias involved. Any factual information that could "redeem" the company seems mysteriously removed. More egregiously still there seems to be no effort at all to even attempt neutrality. Wiki being a source of leftist manipulation and propaganda is nothing new, but they usually at least try to keep up appearances of being unbiased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.102.72.215 (talk) 16:40, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I think there may be some misunderstanding of the changes to the article. For one thing, Nancy Green didn't create the brand. Secondly, information about her has not been removed from the article - it's been moved in order to create a better structure to the article. Yes, there's been a ton of editing on the article in the last several days - unsurprising, considering the relative obscurity of the subject matter before Quaker Oats's announcement a few days ago and its relevance to current events.

If you run diffs between the current article and a version from before the 17th of June, you'll see that content about Nancy Green is still there - the difference is it's been re-ordered, and more carefully cited, as well as copyedited for better readability.

I'm an uninvolved editor - the only change I made to the article was a minor copyedit for clarity in the lede. I strongly recommend checking the article history, and compare the article now side by side with the article from last week. The article is significantly improved in structure and in cited historical information. Anastrophe (talk) 18:21, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Don't even bother with your excuse, '‘Anastrophe,’' we can see through this bull faster than you can drop it. This article is as covertly RACIST as 'Birth Of A Nation's was overtly. If you're so 'uninvolved' why even comment, SOCK PUPPET? You perpetrate the myth of black 'incapabilty' with your große lüge about 'Nancy Green didn't create the brand,' at least Kipling was able to hide his contempt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.10.167.226 (talk) 18:58, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

You previously stated that "Only a year ago, this article included information on Nancy GREEN, the ACTUAL creator of the entire brand.". Can you provide a link to one of those versions? I can't find such a claim. I'd be happy to restore that information if it's sourced reliably. Anastrophe (talk) 19:11, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

• https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/aunt-jemima-millionaire/
  William Allen Simpson (talk) 21:52, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Apologies, especially to Anastrphe. I can't in good faith expect editors on other pages to admit they are wrong, such as the recism argument near top of Steven Crowder's page, if I won't do it myself. I was severely, grossly, 100% incorrect in this talk page. My opinion was clouded by misleading news articles, but that is no excuse for not doing research first. I acted like those emotionally driven editors that I so openly speak against, and I'm disgusted with myself. I hope you can forgive my false accusations and misleading support of an outright lie. This wiki article is accurate and does not need to be changed. Also, I have ZERO political motivation for saying that. As you can see from my history (As well as my long inactive editor history via whatever name I originally used, aka Kaiser, Kysier, Kyzier, or some variation fo that.. sry long time ago.), I have NEVER supported proggressive ideals or identity politics. Anyone who thinks this article is wrong, please, I advise looking into documents pertaining to this products creation. There are public records, including original news articles printed at time of the companie's founding that actually confirm the image is of a "slave" and the original model barely made enough to buy food with. 184.102.72.215 (talk) 16:44, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2020

I would just like you to add that even though most of y'all like forgetting the past to fit your views now aunt jemima was already about equality and had to fight to to get the logo of a black woman on a main stream product what is going on now is regressing the empowerment that anyone should be able to be the face of an industry it's not a form of disgrace it was the result of winning against a race lead industry so everyone who helped take her off of this bottle you just pushed back an entire race of people 173.63.200.101 (talk) 17:27, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

• Not done: This isn’t an edit request, it’s a racist diatribe. Aunt Jemima isn’t a story of equality, but exploitation--BaseFree (talk) 17:53, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Even with the semi-protection, we're still getting wipes of the announcement text, and replacements claiming she was a "real woman". But the vandals seem to have gone over to other related pages, that are getting protection too.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 00:57, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Seconded, with an additional request it be placed under the STRICT supervision of a reputable historian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.10.167.226 (talk) 19:01, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

You're welcome to point us to information written by reputable historians that support your claims. Your request for 'strict supervision of a reputable historian' is nonsensical. Please read up on what Wikipedia is and how it operates. Anastrophe (talk) 19:14, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Rosa Washington Riles

Rosa “Aunt Jemima” Washington Riles. Folk Figure. Born Rosa Washington Riles in Red Oak, Ohio, she was the third popular symbol for the Quaker Oats Company's Aunt Jemima Pancake and Syrup products. Recruited in the 1930s, she traveled around the country making public appearances playing Aunt Jemima until 1948. Burial: Red Oak Presbyterian Church Cemetery Redoak, Brown County, Ohio, USA Death: 1969 (aged 67–68) Find a Grave › memorial › rosa-riles Rosa “Aunt Jemima” Washington Riles (1901-1969) - Find A Grave Memorial Tommy Boy 1248 (talk) 00:59, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Find a grave is not a reliable source, please see WP:FINDAGRAVE-EL. Thanks. GreaterPonce665 ^(TALK) 03:21, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

There are two articles in the Cleveland Plain Dealer, and one of the authors recently wrote another article. Also found a 2001 Kentucky article, that I've used for much of the personal details.

• AUNT JEMIMA TRIBUTE FALLS FLAT AS PANCAKE

Author: KARIN D. BERRY

Date: September 2, 1991

Publication: Plain Dealer, The (Cleveland, OH) Page: 1C

• Ohioans proud to honor one of own, 'Aunt Jemima'

Author: BRIAN E. ALBRECHT PLAIN DEALER REPORTER

Date: May 4, 2001

Publication: Plain Dealer, The (Cleveland, OH) Page: 1E

• Rosa Washington Riles -- Aunt Jemima born in Brown County

Author: T. J. TUCKER Staff Writer

Date: 01/16/2001

Ledger Independent in Maysville, Ky.

• It was past time for Aunt Jemima’s image to go

William Allen Simpson (talk) 01:30, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Idealization of plantation life: Anna Julia Cooper reference

I updated to provide context and a link to the text of Cooper's 1893 speech. However, this section is problematic (as noted by the previous user who inserted "citation needed"). It fails to demonstrate that Cooper "predicted the appeal of Aunt Jemima." For an article about Aunt Jemima, this should probably be revised. 11 Arlington (talk) 20:48, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, very much! The cite is to a more recent book, published in Ann Arbor. I'll have to walk up to the U-Mich library.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 21:29, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

[UPDATE] Hard to know whether the "who" and "citation needed" were anything other than obstructive, but I've answered them. Condensing 40 pages of 3 books into 6 rather long sentences. Somebody else had tried shortening to "predicted the appeal" (a few words that are actually in the book), but what she really said was quite a bit more involved.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 01:53, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Looking at it again, I've removed the "regression of race relations" wikilink (although that also is a quote from the book), putting it in a {see also} instead. We've already got quite a bit on that era.

I've experimented putting in more quotes, such as as Ida B Wells "will do more to lower the race in the estimation of the world than anything else." Also the fact that the board overseeing the fair was all-white. And the revealing quote, "We will speak to Negroes and be kind to them as employees, but we will not sit down with them."

It just gets too bogged down in the details. Of the 6 cited women who spoke, I've only mentioned 4 because we already have significant articles on them. We don't have names of any membership of the protesting women's organizations, just that they existed.

But it was enlightening to me to learn that the legends start with an actual booklet at the world's fair. The Higbee plantation. The "secret recipe" she couldn't reveal until after he died, because she (and it) belonged to him. The happy slave singing and dancing. From the beginning, Green really was just portraying a slave mammy, not some entrepeneur.

And the white-washing! A northern company, not a slavery supporting company. So far from the truth.

Now researchers think Green never left her slave family, moving with them from Kentucky to Chicago. Nobody can find a contract, and/or evidence she collected any money for her Aunt Jemima work!

There's so much more. Polls from the 1920s. African Americans have hated the Aunt Jemima caricature forever.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 00:46, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

I've changed the subsection title from "Idealization of plantation life" to "Controversy". That covers more ground. It was much broader than plantation life, or even happy slaves. It was the perpetuation of blacks as only useful for menial labor, and refusal by the establishment to allow the black public into the World's Fair itself.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 13:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Logo and Nancy Green

A few days ago, PleeUK (talk · contribs) spammed several blocks of text. I tried to verify them and put them in the correct sub-sections.

• One such block had come directly from the Nancy Green article at that time. The ref didn't verify, so I'd tagged it verification needed.

• That text has since been removed from the Nancy Green article. So I've removed it here, too.

Now I'm suspicious of the picture. That illustration has been in the Nancy Green article since its first stub. But after I've been reading so many articles, it makes no sense. All the early illustrations wore a red kerchief tied at the top, and that's what the references mention, too. This is a yellow diamond checked bandana tied at the back. They didn't start appearing in the advertisements until after 1920. So it could be Green at the very end of her life?

It needs to be verified, somehow.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 12:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Several articles had written there was no photograph of Nancy Green. Folks working on the Nancy Green article managed to dig up a newspaper photograph attached to an 1923 obit. That would be around the same time as this supposed illustration. Her photograph matches other illustrations before the turn of the century.

It is not Nancy Green. It was probably commissioned from an illustrator by Quaker Oats, after Green had stopped performing, and probably after her death.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 19:09, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2020

REMOVE "subconsciously are pussies" in the introduction. 2601:441:4B80:140:ED8D:501F:C1A5:AD4D (talk) 12:11, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

 Already done about 12 hours ago. Danski454 (talk) 12:38, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Products remain mostly unhealthy

Pepsico's formerly labled Aunt Jemima contains the following ingredients: corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup, water, cellulose gum, caramel color, salt, natural and artificial flavor, sodium benzoate and sorbic acid (preservatives), sodium hexametaphosphate. I've included no analysis of the health concerns associated with these ingredients but I'll end with saying some are not healthy even in moderation. This is junk food, most of what Pepsico produces isn't particularly healthy. Pepsico delights in the fact that they can be more responsible citizens and avoid racist legacies in their brands and avoid any consideration that they manufacture large amounts of shit for an obese multicultural nation. We can remove "shit" and use the word unhealthy in the main article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.153.0.93 (talk • contribs)

Brand not changing until 4th quarter 2020

Since the 2nd edit protection was lifted, there have been multiple edits changing the tense. Aunt Jemima is a brand. As of today, it is still on their official web site.

• Why is Aunt Jemima removing image from packaging and changing its name?

Aunt Jemima brand is removing its image from packaging and changing the brand name. This step is in line with PepsiCo’s journey toward racial equality, and the evolution will help carry the 130-year-old brand into the future. These initiatives comprise a holistic effort for PepsiCo to walk the talk of a leading corporation and help address the need for systemic change. The activities focus on three pillars—People, Business, and Communities. More details can be found here

William Allen Simpson (talk) 16:30, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Other performers

Although there are newspaper mentions of Agnes Moodey, I've been unable to find any biographical information.

Although various sites mention Lou Blanchard, and there are Getty pictures, I've been unable to find any biographical information.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 17:00, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Separate the term Aunt Jemima from the product?

The article is really about two things, the pancake mix and syrup...and the term. Does anyone else feel these two deserve separate articles? Not to say that the two aren't inextricably linked, but much the way Abe and Mary Lincoln each have separate articles. 842U (talk) 07:44, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

This is not at all like two well known individuals. The term comes from the product marketing. Much of this article is about the marketing and the public reaction. Very little about the product(s), other than a brief history of the original mix. There would need to be much more than pancakes (several kinds), waffles, biscuits, syrup, etc. None of that is mentioned. Pointless to have a separate article about the products, as it would mostly be a very short list. I've seen no such compiled comprehensive public list, so that would be original research, and not WP:LISTN.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 17:41, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Image removed from packaging?

A recent edit (with no edit summary) claimed the image had been removed from packaging. But it has no reference.

I've examined the Aunt Jemima web site, and the current online Kroger weekly ad, and the image is still in both places. So it may be coming soon, but is not in midwestern stores, and has no reporting.

I've reverted until a recent reliable source can be found.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 14:40, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

As of January 1st, the official website has been updated with some packaging without a picture, and says "Our new name is coming to shelves in 2021 with the same great recipe that you know and love." Still no WP:RS reporting. But some product is appearing on shelves during the holiday restocking. Tbhotch (talk · contribs) has helpfully updated the logo at the top of the article, apparently taken from the Spanish version in Mexico.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 08:55, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

No, it was taken from the American website. Aunt Jemima has not an official website in Spanish Mexico (errata: the website has a Spanish-language version, but it is incomplete, and seems to be either American Spanish or a hybrid of Spanglish). (CC) Tbhotch^™ 18:44, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

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• Aunt Jemima Pancake Flour, 1935.jpg

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 19 January 2021 and 7 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): AugustAlyce21.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 15:01, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Pearl Milling Company

Today, reliable sources have carried the announcement that the rebranding will be the original branding, Pearl Milling Company. This will not happen until June, so the verb tenses must remain in the present.

Pearl Milling Company (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has been started as a Redirect with possibilities, but is currently pointing to the Rebranding subsection.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 01:51, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 27 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is a consensus that articles on the character (former brand) and the company (current brand) might eventually be split, but probably not now. Anyway, splitting discussion can be held separately. No such user (talk) 11:31, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

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Aunt Jemima → Pearl Milling Company – Product phase-in has begun dekema (Formerly Buffaboy) (talk) 05:31, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, apart from a short "Rebranding" paragraph, the entirety of this article discusses Aunt Jemima. Pearl Milling Company could be split, although for now, I think the status quo works best. 162 etc. (talk) 15:45, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support. We avoid dated names for Wikipedia articles. Georgia guy (talk) 21:58, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support. It is the present name of the product. We should retain Aunt Jemima in the intro text as being the former name for the product. Standard practice that's done for all varieties of subjects.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 22:04, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support Oppose, but SPLIT - I mean, the renaming has already straight-up begun. EDIT: But however, it makes sense to still have a page at "Aunt Jemima", about the history of the name, character, and slang term. So it would make sense to split the company into a separate article. Paintspot Infez (talk) 23:14, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, and probably split the replacement brand name into its own article. To cover the history and "controversy", an article must and will always exist at Aunt Jemima. -- Netoholic @ 07:18, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Seconding the "Split" option. It makes sense to still have a page at "Aunt Jemima", about the history of the name, character, and slang term. So it would make sense to split the company into a separate article! Paintspot Infez (talk) 13:37, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose The rationale for the move is facially invalid. See WP:OFFICIALNAMES. I agree with 162 that a split would not be an improvement at this time, given the very small amount of content that's not about the character. Colin M (talk) 15:52, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support splitting the article causes to many issues keeping section for Aunt Jemima while changing name the article would be the best course of action. BigRed606 (talk) 18:22, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support. Splitting for a branding change, which would otherwise just be discussed in the article, would be unhelpful for readers. If the new name is now reflected in use in common sources, it is better to go with that than the outdated one. No one is saying Aunt Jemima wouldn't exist, any more than The Facebook no longer exists because that company has changed names.--Yaksar (let's chat) 14:44, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

If the new name is now reflected in use in common sources That's a big "if", which so far no-one has presented any evidence in support of. Colin M (talk) 16:44, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Colin M, do you think it's likely that until as late as 2026 most people will still call it Aunt Jemima?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:55, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

It depends on what you mean by "it". As discussed above, the vast majority of this article is currently about the character named Aunt Jemima. And yes, I do think people will still be calling that character Aunt Jemima in 2026. There is also a smaller portion of the article talking about a line of breakfast foods which are named for the character. It is less clear to me how RS will refer to that subject in 5 years. But the relevant policy question is what name extant sources are using, not future sources. See WP:NAMECHANGES, and its reference to WP:CRYSTALBALL. Colin M (talk) 14:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Somebody please help with this problem: was this article intended to be about the character or the food brand?? Georgia guy (talk) 14:50, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure anyone is really in a position to answer that authoritatively, but even the earliest version of the article from 2004 has a bipartite scope (arguably even tripartite if you include the use of the phrase "Aunt Jemima" as a slur). The first sentence of that revision suggests the brand is the central topic, but the categorization suggests the character. This continues into the categorization today, and even the wikidata item (instance of "advertising character" and instance of "food brand"). So I think the conflation has always been there. Colin M (talk) 17:11, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

• Split the former character and the current brand (Oinkers42) (talk) 15:53, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Old vs. current names

The article begins:

Aunt Jemima (renamed Pearl Milling Company in 2021)

This implies that AJ is a former name and that PMC is current. Because AJ is still the common name, please fix the beginning to reflect that AJ is (not was) the common name. Georgia guy (talk) 13:33, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

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Requested move 27 December 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There's some interest in dividing this article into two: feel free to continue that discussion separately. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 23:10, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

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Aunt Jemima → Pearl Milling Company – The title is no longer accurate. They announced a rebrand several months ago to depart from the mammy caricature. While PMC is not as commonly searched as the original title (WP:COMMONNAME), I want to know if we could WP:IAR this to avoid using a non-neutral topic name when a neutral topic name exists. Aasim (talk) 17:52, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, per previous RM. A split of Aunt Jemima (the character) and Pearl Milling Company (the product) is probably the way to go. 162 etc. (talk) 18:55, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: The purpose of Wikipedia is not to assist with current product marketing campaigns, and the historical brand name and caricatured character are much more notable and recognizable than the current brand and product. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:56, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

  Yeah, but the issue I am bringing up is that the title this article currently sits at is a non-neutral name for this brand. Category:Redirects from non-neutral names And the reason I brought about IAR is that the character is a caricature (and a particularly offensive one) and is different from the brand. Also Wikipedia:Offensive material and Wikipedia:PLA is of importance to consider (especially PLA, as those searching "Pearl Milling Company" should not be redirected to an article about an offensive caricature). Especially because this is the title of the article, I do not think readers would expect after the rename to PMC the article to be about the brand but about the character. Or, we may find that the character is indeed part of the brand and thus should stay in the same article, but the article be renamed to PMC like I mentioned above.

  I also do not know if these "oppose" arguments listed are even super valid. No, Wikipedia is not assisting with current product marketing campaigns by doing this rename. Wikipedia is assisting in maintaining accuracy with the title. It is also important to remember that notability is permanent - it does not matter if a brand changed names sometime this year - the notability of the brand remains unaffected. The closest analogy I could prob find for this situation is naming Alphabet Inc. Google Inc. or naming Meta Platforms Facebook Inc. because that is the historical title. At the end of the day, I am thinking about what readers would think if they searched a modern brand name on Wikipedia and got redirected to a brand that historically has been offensive and racist. Aasim (talk) 18:28, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

  The article is about a brand (and the fictional characters and logos used to promote the brand), and the name of the article is simply that brand name. I see nothing non-neutral about that – it was a very notable brand. The fact that the brand name and the associated marketing of the brand had racist overtones is a different matter. There are lots of articles on Wikipedia about topics that have had racist overtones (or are directly racist or are racist pejoratives). There are also many topics discussed on Wikipedia that use names that someone has attempted to replace or modify, or that are otherwise defunct. (Some examples that come to my mind, although they may not be the best possible examples, are Blackwater (company), Stokely Carmichael and Cat Stevens.) The Aunt Jemima brand is simply more notable than the different brand name that PepsiCo has tried to replace it with. The old brand name was simply discontinued and a different brand name is now being used, and the rest is just marketing. Companies can discontinue, reuse, retire, resurrect, buy, and sell brand names at will. According to CNN, PepsiCo had to recently buy the rights to the Pearl Milling Company brand name – they didn't even own that name until a few months ago ("PepsiCo attorneys purchased brand name and logo trademarks for Pearl Milling Company on February 1," so this is hardly a mere continuation of some long history of the 1889 "Pearl Milling Company"). Some companies (with Proctor & Gamble as a quintessential example) even have several different brand names for very similar or identical products in essentially the same market at the same time. The company that owns a brand name can put whatever it wants to put inside the box or bottle that has the brand's label on it. Approximately the only thing that is notable about the Pearl Milling Company brand is that PepsiCo has chosen that name as a way (and perhaps not their only way – e.g., they may also produce other brands and similar private label products) to continue in the pancake mix and syrup business after discontinuing the much more notable Aunt Jemima brand name. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:20, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose The Aunt Jemima character is highly notable and always will be even though it has been discontinued. Cullen328 (talk) 19:58, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. Still the common name. Perhaps an article split would be appropriate here, but I'm not totally sure. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:36, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose and SNOW - nothing new being offered since the last RM in June 2021, when a potential article split was suggested as a way to alleviate some concerns. This brand/character will always be notable in and of itself regardless of the discontinuation of use/rebrand. -- Netoholic @ 05:06, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. Carlstak (talk) 12:57, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: We have covered this ground already. Snow close please. —¿philoserf? (talk) 15:31, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support - We typically use the current name for long-running brands. The history of Pearl Milling Company products and advertising dates back to 1888 and is best covered in a single article; this isn't a new product that's been created. I would have been comfortable keeping the Aunt Jemima name when the upcoming change was first announced but at this point it seems appropriate for our article to reflect the fact that it's been fully switched over. Searching for current coverage on Google News, most of the hits are about the name change, but none seem to refer to Aunt Jemima as the preferred name. –dlthewave ☎ 21:40, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support I don't get the opposes. Current sources use the current name. The sources using Aunt Jemima are from early 2021 or are talking about the character. I would also support a split. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 00:02, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

  As far as I can see from the linked Google search above, the sources that discuss the new brand are either "puff piece" promotional sources or are only discussing the new brand name in the context of discussing the withdrawal of the prior (more notable) brand name. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:56, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. Still the obvious title for this topic, which is known all over the world. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:24, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. Too soon for such a wholesale change. "Aunt Jemima" as a historical term referring to the pancake mix brand will never be incorrect. When people look up the history of the term, the timeline of the various impersonators, the vaudeville character and stereotype-archetype that the brand-name was based on, the 1888-1889 Pearl Milling Company pancake mix, the since 1926 Quaker Oats/PepsiCo trademarked Intellectual Property icon, it will always be "Aunt Jemima" in the newspapers, in the print ads, the TV ads, in the history books, and in the various media representations. "Pearl Milling Company" is not a real company anyway, it is an advertising construct. Maybe in a year or two everyone everywhere will be referring to PepsiCo's pancake mix as being the Pearl Milling Company brand... Shearonink (talk) 05:36, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - historical universally known name. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:04, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - even though I know it will eventually be changed to the proposed title. A sign of our every increasing 'politically correct' world. GoodDay (talk) 02:18, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support Uncle Ben's was changed to its new name, Ben's Original, so why not this one? Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 12:38, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.