Talk:Atari, Inc.

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Requested move 1 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 04:30, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

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• Atari, Inc. → Atari
• Atari → Atari (brand)

– This is the original Atari company and the Atari that is the most well known the page currently known as Atari should be renamed "Atari (brand" as the page is a summary of the brand's history including Atari Inc. Lyanbox782 (talk) 08:31, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Note: Atari titles a page with significant content and so is ineligible as a new page title unless it is also proposed to be renamed. This request has been altered to reflect that fact. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 22:27, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - Firstly, the company was called "Atari, Inc.", and in a situation in which we have multiple entities using the same brand, there is no better way to disambiguate between them than using the companies' actual names as article titles. So a better idea would be to leave the article under its current name and make Atari redirect here. (This would require moving the current contents of Atari to e.g. "Atari (brand)".) But, secondly, in case of Europe at least, the most well-known Atari company seems to be Atari Corporation, because that iteration of Atari was the most commercially active one in this market. So the assumption that the first Atari, Inc. is the most well known iteration of Atari, is not universal. --Krótki (talk) 10:21, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support. The original company Atari Inc. is clearly the primary topic. All these new brands are simply reusing the established brand name. JIP | Talk 11:34, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose While the original company is likely the one most associated with the "Atari" name, it is not that far dominant compared to the other companies that held its name to make it the primary topic compared to the current Atari topic which documents the overall history of the brand. I also agree on Krotki's argument that the Atari Corporation period is not something insignifiant, as that's when it was putting out the Atari Jaguar and other consoles - they may have been minor in the overall picture but they are still major consoles, and those were not under Atari, Inc. --Masem (t) 13:23, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per Krotki and Masem. Pageviews do not indicate primary topic either. 162 etc. (talk) 14:48, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per the excellent arguments already made. Indrian (talk) 15:14, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support All of the other Ataris (except for Atari Corp) are just milking off of the Success of the original by taking their brand name. The Atari 2600 is engraved in pop culture, the XEGS isnt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SatoshiPhoto (talk • contribs) 03:57, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Corporate Naming Shenanigans

Since User:Oknazevad keeps removing accurate information and replacing it with inaccurate information, I suppose I better get this all on the talk page since it is liable to happen again. Honestly, I get that corporate maneuvering can be hard to follow, so it is understandable that Oknazevad is confused in this case.

Anyway, the breakup of Atari was multi-part and quite complicated. The first even to occur was the sale of the consumer and home computer assets to Tramel Technology, Ltd. in July 1984, which renamed itself Atari Corporation. I think we are all on the same page there. Atari, Inc. then renamed itself Atari Games, Inc. This is where the confusion begins, as Atari Games, Inc. is NOT the coin-op company. It's just a renamed Atari, Inc., which after the sale included not just the Coin-Operated Games Division, but also the Ataritel telecommunications division, the Atari Adventures arcade division, and no doubt a few other random corporate odds and ends.

AtariTel was next, sold off to Mitsubishi in August 1984. Then in 1985, Warner decided to dump coin-op on Namco as well. This was a sale of the DIVISION, not the entire company. To facilitate this sale, Warner and Namco established AT Games, Inc. in January 1985, a new company to which the coin-operated games division was transferred in February. To keep continuity with the product line, AT Games, Inc. was renamed Atari Games Corporation once this transfer was complete. Then, so as not to completely confuse things (too late!) Atari Games, Inc. was renamed Atari Holdings, Inc. Finally, Atari Holdings sold off the Atari Adventure arcades in July 1985, which was the last operating bit of the company. It continued as a holding company until 1992.

So to summarize, we have Atari, Inc. -> Atari Games, Inc. -> Atari Holdings, Inc., which is the original Atari (if you want to get really technical, the original Atari, Inc. ceased to exist in 1976, when Warner Communications merged it into a newly established entity called WCI Games as part of its acquisition of the company, which then changed it's name to Atari, Inc., but meh) Then we have AT Games, Inc. -> Atari Games Corporation -> Midway Games West, Inc., which is the coin-op company. I agree it is confusing, but those are the facts.

But the great news is, you do to have to take my work for it! For those struggling to do this research themselves, let me introduce you to the California Secretary of State Business Entity Search, which has all the legal filings relating to this sequence of events. Here we have documents relating to the establishment of AT Games, and it's name change to Atari Games Corporation as well as the Atari, Inc. name changes to Atari Games, Inc. and Atari Holdings. (These links will ask you to download PDF files, but it's all from the California Secretary of State's Office, so the links are safe. If you prefer not to use these links, you can go to the Secretary of State's site and search for "Atari Holdings" and "Midway Games West" to see where the links came from yourself.) So there you have it; hopefully that puts this nonsense to rest. Indrian (talk) 19:05, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

If these references were actually in the article, then there would be less issue. WP:VNT and all that. Not to mention the prior version was inaccurate, as it incorrectly stated that Namco outright owned Atari Games, not that it was jointly owned and that Warners still was a part owner.

But there's also the fact that it doesn't matter. The way the sale was handled in terms of legal entities is trivial cruft only of interest to corporate lawyers getting paid for it. That's always been the case when it comes to corporate acquisitions. Actual successor in terms of business operations trumps paper relics. That's how reliable secondary sources treat the transition, and how we should as well. Being able to find primary sources for the trivial legalities doesn't change that we should follow what said secondary sources say.

Finally, my one question is what exactly was Atari Holding holding? oknazevad (talk) 20:17, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Ah, you want history to be simple, pleasant, and fake. Sadly, real history is messy and complicated. There is no definition of defunct that ends Atari, Inc. in 1984. As for what it held: there were a few things. The Atari Adventure arcade operation for one, if only for a few months. The Warner shares in Atari Corp. for another. There was some real estate. No doubt some other rights and assets. That's what holding companies do: they hold onto things. The coin-op operation was a division, not the whole company, which is exactly what the New York Times said, incidentally, when reporting on the sale. I am not quite sure why corporate structure offends you so much, but we do have to stick to the facts in the article. Atari Games Corporation was no more Atari, Inc. than Tramiel's Atari Corporation was. Indrian (talk) 23:16, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Less not likening things being complicated so much as keeping focus on the actually notable, not the administrivia. Plus again, sourcing. You still haven't added any of these sources to the article. oknazevad (talk) 23:29, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Marble Madness

Was this arcade game left off the list for a good reason? Pretty sure Atari developed this game.THX1136 (talk) 01:23, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

MM was developed by Atari Games, which is not the same company as Atari, Inc. Masem (t) 01:36, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

That is not quite accurate, and the Marble Madness page was also in error on this point until I just corrected it. The confusion, as is often the case with corporate shenanigans, is that there were two companies named Atari Games in this time period. After the sale of the consumer business to Jack Tramiel, Atari, Inc. was renamed Atari Games, Inc. Exact same company, just a name change. In February 1985, Warner sold the coin-operated games division of Atari Games, Inc. to Namco, which created a new subsidiary the month before called AT Games, Inc. to absorb these assets. After the purchase, AT Games was renamed Atari Games Corporation, and Atari Games, Inc. became Atari Holdings, Inc. So, in short every arcade game developed before February 1985 was developed by Atari, Inc., not Atari Games Corporation. Indrian (talk) 17:41, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

How technical do we get with corporate shenanigans? It seems we currently consider Atari Games under Namco and Warner separate companies mostly because they were separate corporations, despite having the same business (Atari Holdings being a shell corporation). However, we do not apply the same measure to Atari, Inc. before and after Warner's purchase. The old Atari, Inc. (California 0654542) was merged into WCI Games Inc. (Delaware 827117) on 4 October 1976. Atari, Inc. ceased to exist and WCI Games Inc. was renamed Atari, Inc. as part of the merger agreement. The California "bizfile Online" service has the merger filing for the state. Michael Current's lengthy history seems to be the only somewhat reputable secondary source for this on the web at the moment. IceWelder [✉] 19:39, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

An excellent question for sure, and one I have grappled with as well. I am aware that technically the Warner Atari was a different company from the independent company, but this seems a minor distinction not worth splitting articles over since the new company just engulfed the entirety of independent Atari and its assets consisted only of independent Atari. This situation is different though. Atari, Inc. to Atari Games, Inc. was only a name change. No shuffling of assets, no change in corporate overlord, no reincorporation, just a name change. Atari Games Corporation does not exist until 1985. The asset sale that created Atari Games Corp. is no different from the consumer asset sale that transformed Tramel Technology, Ltd. into Atari Corporation. Indrian (talk) 20:53, 17 October 2023 (UTC)