Talk:Armenians in the Ottoman Empire/Archive 1

Archive 1

Merge

I wasn't even aware that there were two articles, one here and one at Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. There is no need for "history", since it is kind of obvious that we are talking about history. Let's do the merge! Baristarim 04:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I think Armenians in the Ottoman Empire should be merged into this one (because it was created more recently and has less edits), and then we should rename this page to "Armenians in the Ottoman Empire". Khoikhoi 04:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

The only problem is that Ottoman Armenia redirects here, which is a geographic region. Perhaps we should redirect that page to Western Armenia? Khoikhoi 04:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

What a web! Yep, your suggestions sound good to me. Baristarim 04:51, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I also agree with Baristarim and Khoikhoi. ROOB323 19:40, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

This article is like a joke

Almost whole article gives misinformation, uncited or poorly cited information.--85.103.36.14 22:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Please be more clear and point them out. There are five citations, certainly there could be more. A good tag would be {{Refimprove}}, but we might not need that either as there are no fact tags atm. Deniz^T_C 15:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with 85.103, in this article we can see diaspora-armenians propaganda at its best. It doesnt make any sense for me or anyone else to make it any more objective, because dozens of anti-turkish propagandists are waiting to revert any impartial edits. XmuratX 17:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Genocide allegations

In order for this article to be objective, it should mention how many Turks, Kurds, and other Muslims were killed by Armenian rebels fighting for a piece of Ottoman land. These killings forced Ottoman Empire to relocate Armenian communities within Ottoman Empire. As a response to the genocide allegations, Turkish government made its Ottoman era archives publicly available. But, interestingly, no Armenian historian is willing to research these documents. Furthermore, Turkish government is asking for a joint research effort, which will include both Turkish and Armenian historians working together on this issue.

Also, it should be considered that this article need to be re-written in terms of rephrasing "Genocide" into "Alleged Genocide" Keep this article politically correct, because it is purely a cheap-shot at unproven history, and also can be viewed as an unnecessarily provocative detail in an article that really has no use for it. It is only one line, at the end of a paragraph, it was clearly added, and is misuse of the account that decided to add this detail, and is thus abusing the integrity of Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serhat09 (talk • contribs) 01:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)serhat09

biased information in this article

This article is biased on the fact that it promotes the Armenians point of view. There have been no interviews of ex-soldiers in the Ottoman Empire or of any Armenians. Only a book of a British scholar and every piece of information has been based on that book. We might never know what actually happened but I have done "unbiased" research which has shown that all people were treated equally within the Ottoman Empire. Citizens of other countries were given freedom, and taxed like everyone else. The taxes were no higher and Ottoman Empire never forced anyone into slavery. Racism may have occurred in areas of mixed culture by citizens never government, but that happens everywhere with mixed cultures. The so-called march without food, water, rape was discredited by many Turkish scholars. Maybe biased but their story is that while the Ottomans were being attacked by Russia, Ottomans took Armenians of the villages and marched them to different directions of the Ottoman Empire. Women and children whose father or husband was dead were placed into Turkish homes as a family of mixed culture. We are not sure if the march was a genocide or for protection, but we know that Preceding unsigned comment added by KahnKaan (talk) 19:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

each side

Each side has probably exaggerated the story in certain parts. We always hear the Armenian side, but never the Turkish side, funny isn't? On my final note, not much evidence has been shown on either side because each countries Archives had been closed, but recently Turkey offered the Armenians to open up their Archives as well as theirs for cross-examinations by each other and other countries but Armenia denied the request. Preceding unsigned comment added by KahnKaan (talk) 19:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

No that's wrong according to me

Fairy Tales

The article needs overhaul. It begins with a Turkish fairy tale about Hovagim I becoming patriarch by the orders of Mehmed II. This story is repeated in List of Armenian Patriarchs of Constantinople as well.

The first Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople was Hovagim I, who was at the time the Metropolitan of Bursa. In 1461, he was brought to Constantinople by Sultan Mehmed II and established as the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople. - Thank you very much, Mehmed II.

In fact Hovagim I never bore the title patriarch. Only in the middle of the 16th century there was a Armenian patriarch of Constantinople. Hovagim I was Armenian prelate of Constantinople. But Patriarch sounds better. I agree. The article itself is important it's not a joke. I disagree. Apocolocynthosis (talk) 23:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, it looks like Armenian Patriarch Maghakia Ormanian in his history 'Azkabadum' was persuaded as well that Hovagim I was the 1st Patriarch. Still, Hovagim is nowhere in contemporary sources cited as Patriarch. Metropolitan in Bursa and (possibly) thereaftere metropolitan in Constantinople. Apocolocynthosis (talk) 21:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

"Armenians after World War One" section

I have removed the following content: The 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey was the first large scale population exchange, or agreed mutual expulsion in the 20th century. It involved some two million people, most forcibly made refugees overseen by the international community as part of the Treaty of Lausanne. Among 2 million exchanged people from the Republic of Turkey were 1.2 million Greeks (comprising the major part) while the rest was composed from other sections of the Christians, including the survived Armenians.

The "1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey" had no connection to the Treaty of Lausanne. This has already been discussed in the article's talk page [1]. The "1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey" does not mention anything about Armenians - it dealt only with Muslim citizens of Greece, and with Greek Orthodox citizens of Turkey. Though some Armenians did leave with the Greeks during the enforced population exchange, most of the decline in the Armenian population in Turkey after WW1 has nothing directly to do with the "1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey". Meowy 17:49, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Article title

On the 28th July, dBachmann moved the article title from "Armenians in the Ottoman Empire" to "Ottoman Armenia". He did this without prior discussion - though such a discussion was not required I think it would have been appropriate.

I have returned it to the original "Armenians in the Ottoman Empire" title. Because I would disagree with a move back to "Ottoman Armenia", under WP:RN it now cannot be arbitrarily moved back to the "Ottoman Armenia" title (or to any other title) without a formal proposal being made to rename it. (Quote: "If there has been any past debate about the best title for the page, or if anyone could honestly disagree with the move, then treat it as controversial").

dBachmann in his page move edit summary wrote "Actual title topic". He is incorrect - "Ottoman Armenia" is a geographical region, this article does not deal with a geographical region, it deals with a minority ethnic group living inside a larger country. For example, the related Ottoman Greeks article is not about Ottoman Greece, and the German Jews article is not titled "Germanic Israel". Meowy 18:26, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Meowy's rationale seems reasonable to me.--Anothroskon (talk) 18:33, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Poorly Written

There are many typos and grammatical errors in this piece. Undermines its credibility. I am descended of Anatolian Armenians, I cannot make my own judgement on what did or didn't happen, but whatever this article says did, it is hard to trust when it appears to have been written by an illiterate foreigner or a 5 year old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mannysteiner (talk • contribs) 02:27, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Agreed - will do some copy editing now... Soulparadox 05:46, 21 March 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Soulparadox (talk • contribs)

Wrong Info In the Map, please change it

This map is not trustable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_the_Ottoman_Empire#mediaviewer/File:AsiaMinor1910.jpg

I know it because I am from Bursa (Prussa in map) and even in Ottoman era, city was not dominated by Greeks. Even before Ottomans capture Istanbul, Bursa was a Turk dominated city. I'm not saying this in a nationalist way, but i wanted to tell that this map does not describes the real distribution. Please change it.

You have to provide a source to back up your claim. Ninetoyadome (talk) 16:34, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Here is my source, a reliable article in Turkish, but lots of reference to foreign researchers: http://www.lozanmubadilleri.org.tr/arastirma_nesimseker.htm English translation of title is "Turk-Greek Population Excambium and a City". On the "Nüfus (population)" section it says: "Cuinet’in verdiği 507,738 toplamının 352,386’sı (yüzde 69,4) Müslüman, 90,651’i (yüzde 17,8) Ortodoks Rum ve 50,413’ü (yüzde 9,9) Ermeni’dir." and English translation of this part is: "According to the 507,738 total population that Cuinet gives, 352,386 (69,4 percent) are Muslims, 90,651 (17,8 percent) are Ortodox Greeks and 50.413 (9,9 percent) are Armenians." This information refers to French researcher Vital Cuinet, he claims the Muslim population at the beginning of the 20th century to be 69% where some others even says it is %75.

And this is an English source called LATE OTTOMAN POPULATION AND ITS ETHNIC DISTRIBUTION http://www.hips.hacettepe.edu.tr/nbd_cilt25/mutlu.pdf Check the table A I at the end of the article, see the population information of Hudavendigar Vilayet (it is the Vilayet that Bursa city belongs, population data belongs to whole Vilayet) in year 1897. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.108.166.40 (talk) 00:48, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Source provided with the ethnic distribution of the whole Anatolie is FALSE

I had to delete the map for several times, because it contains false informations. There is a source provided with the map, but it is FALSE, there some really crazy things in the map, like the Bursa example. This issue is important because there are people who are trying to understand the problem in a racist point of view, so we should avoid to provide false indormation.

Here is the correct source: http://www.hips.hacettepe.edu.tr/nbd_cilt25/mutlu.pdf

Here is the correct map, from the "Demographics of Ottoman Empire" wikipedia page, with its source provided below the image. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.108.175.166 (talk) 22:51, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

How is this source more reliable then the other source?Ninetoyadome (talk) 23:03, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Answer; Because it is an international peer rewieved academic article which has lots of citations to European researchers of the era that we are discussing about. I want to repeat that I do not have any political or nationalist point of view about this topic, I beleive in the importance of the true information. 85.108.161.171 (talk) 23:03, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

The only complaint i have with that source is that the sources used contain Justin Mccarthy, Stanford Shaw, etc. who have been known for their staunch stance on the Armenian Genocide. The other source does not contain pro-Armenian or anti-Turkish historians and so that is why i would choose that map. I would leave it for others to decide which they prefer.Ninetoyadome (talk) 03:37, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, to avoid any misunderstanding about the political side of this topic, I will find one more international resource. Main problem about most of the maps is how they read the data and use it in map, thats why it is an important science. If a town center is dominated by an ethnic group "X", it doesn't means that the whole province is dominated by X ethnicity. Most of the Turks in Anatolia used to do agriculture so that they were widely living in the rural areas, this could be one of the reasons of different ethnic percentages between town centers and provinces. But the problem about map which I claim that it is false; even when thinking of the town centers, it shows us a very exaggerated distribution. In my Bursa example (it was Prusa in the map), it really is a Muslim dominated city for couple of hundred years, long before the genocide and any kind of natinalist incidence. We can also see it when we look at it at the present time, I lived in Bursa for 20 years but never seen a Greek church at the town center, but there are some around Mudania, now I live in Kadıköy (a discrict in İstanbul, also called Chalcedon) and there are 3 Mosques and 8 Churches (1 English, 2 Armenian, 2 French, 3 Greek) in the center, so I can understand that it was a Christian dominated discrict. Usually, Greek dominated cities are at the coast of Marmara and Aegean sea, like Mudania which is 20 km close to Bursa.176.42.21.141 (talk) 19:37, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

References

Merger proposal

POV article to create an "Armenian state" -which never existed- within the Ottoman Empire history. See infobox that I am trying to put in order: "Former country, flag, capital!" We cannot leave alone nationalist irredentist editors free to do such additions to WP. Those who do this today, I cannot imagine are capable of doing what tomorrow (or having done yesterday). This attitude is destroying WP. Please wake up, people who really care for WP, not for my or any other user's prerences or worries but please wake up for the encyclopedia itself. We shall merge this to Six vilayets article within the correct historical context. Without "inventing" any Utopia. Please join me. --E4024 (talk) 18:26, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I removed the infobox, because it was irrelevant with the article.--Rapsar (talk) 18:39, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I concur that the infobox should be removed but am staunchly opposed to the conflation of this article with the Six vilayets. Many Ottoman Armenians lived outside of that region and as far west as Edirne. JackalLantern (talk) 00:05, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose to Merger proposal "Merging to Six vilayets" is nonsense. Infobox is also nonsense. Per JackalLantern. Takabeg (talk) 09:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Someone who understands the issues about Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, please remove the Merge template?--DThomsen8 (talk) 03:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

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Undergrad honors thesis

Since we have many other sources this won't be usable in the article itself, but I found an undergrad honors thesis on this: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/26a7/b88dc98783e8c49339f4606576d79e7f3c8c.pdf WhisperToMe (talk) 18:03, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Per WP:SCHOLARSHIP, even the use of Master's theses is quite restricted, so we can't use an undergrad thesis directly. However, it can be a useful as a bibliography for finding additional RSs. Eperoton (talk) 03:09, 23 September 2019 (UTC)