Talk:Arabs/Archive 10

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Genetics

I suggested the removal of all and add the Haplogroup distribution.--HailesG (talk) 19:35, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

That haplogroup distribution is basically synthesis. It is incongruent with the Centre for Arab Genomic Studies, which oversees all territories in the Arab League. It also makes various inaccurate claims, such as that the E1b1b and J paternal clades are comparably distributed in Egypt and Sudan. In actuality, this is only the situation vis-a-vis Lower Egypt. In Upper Egypt, the population instead primarily carries E1b1b-M215 [1]; and in the Siwa oasis, R1b has a higher presence among local Berbers [2]. The maternal clades are also quite different. Therefore, the extant Y-DNA table link-throughs are more neutral and accurate. Soupforone (talk) 04:02, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

The intent is to add the genes peoples with the survival of genes definition.--HailesG (talk) 06:21, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

That makes no sense. Soupforone (talk) 16:01, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

as Arabians mixed with populations from East and South Asia, Arab are Indian, Chinese and Mongolians ? to Europe:likely and (Africa:alright). Can you explain to me? before everything take a look at this.--HailesG (talk) 07:19, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

The haplogroup distribution was synthesis and incorrect, as explained above. I have therefore corrected it with a more neutral and direct frequency table. Soupforone (talk) 17:04, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Your edits are a joke and had nothing to do with the article. Where the rest of the Arab peoples?, any neutral you speak?, i rely on a template Y-DNA haplogroups by populations of Near East and the articles of the Arab peoples. You must restore the old version which explains more, with modern sources. Are there genes from East and South Asia?, as Arabians (Humans) mixed with populations from East and South Asia to Europe and Africa. This is a big joke, there's no such thing as Arabs, but has become a global.--HailesG (talk) 00:54, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG, although it may be a challenge, do try and respect the civility policy. As for the notion that Arabians mixed with populations from East and South Asia to Europe and Africa, Monochrome Monitor originally asserted this (not me unfortunately). For what it's worth, the analysis does seem to indicate this [3]. Soupforone (talk) 04:13, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

One source inadequate, there is not any gene among Arabs from East and South Asia. This text shouldn't be in the article, or should be in all ethnicities because all have mixed genes.--HailesG (talk) 05:02, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Do you have a source?--Monochrome_Monitor 16:20, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, you can look at this Y-DNA haplogroups by populations of Near East and Y-DNA haplogroups by populations of North Africa, look for place of origin and look at this Y-DNA haplogroups by populations of East and Southeast Asia there is a big difference between the genes.--HailesG (talk) 02:18, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG, what that analysis indicates is that, after migrations of Semitic tribes from the Arabian Peninsula, the spread of Islam in the 7th century, the Crusades and more recent population movements, Arabians are now genetically diverse due to intermarriages between Arab men and native women in east and south Asia, Europe and Africa. This seems only logical since the Arab proselytizers that settled in these particular areas were men, and most did not travel with women. Ergo, if/where there were any genetic exchanges, it was primarily between these Arab men and local women. Soupforone (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

I know this very well, I don't deny this but it was with the peoples of Western Asia and North Africa, there is not any gene among Arabs from East and South Asia. Most genes among Arabs from Western Asia and Africa.--HailesG (talk) 02:18, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I understand. Soupforone (talk) 03:37, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

HailesG, y-dna is just one uniparental marker and it is already more accurately summarized in the frequency table link-thrus and distribution maps. Ergo, please don't duplicate it in lieu of the mtDNA summary and ancestral component stuff. Soupforone (talk) 02:49, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Well but!, but its presence in Lebanese Christians (What does this mean).? There are four principal West Eurasian autosomal DNA components that characterize the populations in the Arab world: the Arabian, Levantine, Coptic and Maghrebi components. (What about this)?? among the non-Arabized Berber (description non-Berber population, they are Arabized it is racist) populations in the region?. The Maghrebi component diverged from the Coptic (What is that?)/ Ethio-Somali, Arabian and Levantine what is the difference? components prior to the Holocene. I objected to this, unreal (what are the sources that confirm this)?..--HailesG (talk) 03:50, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

They are four separate, but related West Eurasian ancestral components: Arabian [4], Levantine [5], Coptic/Ethio-Somali [6] [7], and Maghrebi [8]. Soupforone (talk) 04:04, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Template removal

@HailesG: Could you explain to me why you keep removing the "failed verification" and "citation needed" templates. M.Bitton (talk) 22:07, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I have mixed the sources, I was in a hurry.. In fact the number of Arabs more than this.--HailesG 22:16, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: Do you mind answering my question ? The sources given do not support the statements, that's why I added the templates. So, why are you removing the templates without explanation ? M.Bitton (talk) 22:21, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

The source have been present for a long time, however I will look for other source.--HailesG (talk) 22:33, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: I expect you to restore the templates while you're looking for other sources. M.Bitton (talk) 22:38, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Actually the CIA Factbook estimates an Arab population of 450 million. Well done!.--HailesG (talk) 22:45, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: I restored the templates until you can provide reliable secondary sources that support the following statement: Arabs are an ethnic group and nation native to the Arab world. As for the book by Margaret Kleffner Nydell, it's clearly misinterpreted since it mentions 450 million Muslims (not Arabs). M.Bitton (talk) 23:02, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Look at this section for ethnic group, it was agreed for it....--HailesG (talk) 23:19, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: I don't see what I'm looking for (the reliable sources). M.Bitton (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

About what?.--HailesG (talk) 23:26, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: The reliable sources that support the following statement: Arabs are an ethnic group and nation native to the Arab world. M.Bitton (talk) 23:28, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Read this entire section, take your time.--HailesG (talk) 23:31, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: I have and not a single source supports that statement. I expect you to restore the template that you deleted once again for no apparent reason. M.Bitton (talk) 23:33, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: Can you communicate with him and block this user GoulGoul1 he has no job except Arabs. @M.Bitton: 1 2 3 4 that's enough? for native the Arab world is native not indigenous, don't worry we know that the Berbers are indigenous to North Africa--HailesG (talk) 23:37, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

@HailesG: Agreed ? We(I) never agreed to this, neither did you ever answer to my questions. Honestly, this article has became low quality, it went from being a neutral one that represented the best reality to an HQ of an ideology. I see several problems : You talk of an ethnic group, which I already showed you why this isn't true. But that's not all, you even claim (I recently noticed) that people form the MENA region form a nation, implying that everyone in the area see his world vision through the same glasses. Explain to me why the second biggest in Syria is one that is Syrian centric and not Pan Arab. There's clearly loads of Levantines who disagree harshly with what is written in this article (and I personally know myself several of them). I see also other problems, namely : " language, Architecture, art, literature, music, dance, media, cuisine, dress, society, sports and mythology"

How is the linguistic situation in anyway homogenous ? If you're referring to the use of MSA, then I agree. But this article fails to mention the disglossia and that the spoken varieties that are used in everyday life aren't the same from one region to another that someone (like me) would have an easier time talking with a Moroccan in English than I would in Arabic.

Neither is the music and dances common, just go see what Saudis think are their traditional dances and compare it to what people think is theirs. (Dabke for example) Clearly different. The same goes for the music, if by music you imply traditional one.

The dresses are also different, someone from Southern Arabia (Yemen for example) dresses in a completely different way from Najdi Bedouin, and a bedouin Najdi dresses completely different from what a Leb/Syrian would dress.

And what part about the mythology ? I thought most believers in the region were Monotheists through Christianity and Islam. Honestly, if this is what Wiki wants to present as "solid" info, it only brings its value down. Arabs are a pan ethnicity/different peoples, that's the consensus that was achieved and the one with no clear bias towards one movement or another. Please, for the love of God, bring those "sources" which support your claims and quote them. And I don't think I need to explain to you the concept of credibility, I assume you understand this.GoulGoul1 (talk) 04:37, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Our aforementioned discussion about this concluded that "ethnic group" be used, not "nation", which is a political statement and irredentist. We don't need sources that explicitly state "native to the Arab world"; in fact that line isn't even necessary. We can just write "Arabs are an ethnic group that mostly inhabit the Arab world", or something along those lines. However, I see no issue with bringing reliable sources to support the ethnic group statement. That would help steer us away from debates that have boiled down to contrasting the different dances and clothing choices of Najdis and Yemenis as points of argument. --Al Ameer (talk) 15:12, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Sources

• Ennaji, Mona (1999) "The Arab World (Maghreb and Near East)" in Fishman, Joshua, ed. Handbook of Language & Ethnic Identity, pp. 382–383. I have only a limited preview of this chapter, but it is a very informative read. Here are some relevant samples to this discussion:

After noting that some scholars "deny any direct or necessary link between language and ethnicity", and that other scholars "stress that language is the vehicle of ethnic identity", Ennaji writes:

According to the second view, language has often been a criterion by which we define or determine ethnicity. Each ethnic group associates with a language, and, conversely, language is a means of identifying an ethnic group. ... In the past, it was easy to differentiate Arabs from Berbers in the Maghreb because each community or group spoke only its own language; there were very few Arabic-Berber bilinguals. Today, most Berbers are bilingual (they also speak Arabic) because of social mobility, intermarriages, and socioeconomic interactions. Race, political class, and social class are not so crucial as language in determining ethnic groups in the Maghreb; it is impossible to distinguish a Berber from an Arab on the basis of race ... many Arabic-speaking tribes were Berberized and many Berber ones were Arabized over the centuries ... In the Maghreb, there are two major ethnic groups, Arabic speakers and Berber speakers (emphasis added). Historically, the latter were the first inhabitants of the region, whereas the former came from the Arabian Peninsula in the eighth century and with them the Arabic language and Islam. Because classical Arabic is associated with Islam and has a great literary tradition, it has been proclaimed the official language of the Arab world.

• Shoup, John A. (2011) Ethnic Groups of Africa and the Middle East: An Encyclopedia, p. xiii:

Ethnic groups can be fluid, such as Arab and Berber, and it is possible to be both an Arab and a Berber at the same time. Ethnicity can be defined as much by what a group is not as much as what it is; that is, it can be defined by those who are not members as much as those who are. It is possible to negotiate belonging to one group or another and, when language is the main means of defining a group, such as with the Arabs, it is possible to have multiple identities.

Also from Shoup, p. 16.:

Arabs are the single largest ethnic group in the Middle East and North Africa, numbering around 325 million people living in 22 countries that make up the League of Arab States ... In addition there are important Arab minorities in Turkey, Iran and Israel as well as in a number of Saharan and Sahel states, including Mali, Niger and Chad. Arabs have had a long historical presence in East Africa where they founded several trade cities, and as a result there are Arab minorities in Kenya and Tanzania, especially on the island of Zanzibar.

• Barakat, Halim. The Arab World: Society, Culture, and State, pp. 33–34.

The great majority of the citizens of the Arab world view themselves and are viewed by outsiders as Arabs. Their sens of Arab nationhood is based on what they have in common—namely, language, culture, sociopolitical experiences, economic interests, and a collective memory of their place and role in history. ... The prevailing view is that only a small minority of the citizens of Arab countries do not speak Arabic as their mother tongue and lack a sense of being Arab; this minority category includes the Kurds, Berbers, Armenians, and the ethnolinguistic groups of southern Sudan. Fewer still are those who speak Arabic as their mother tongue without sharing with the majority a sense of nationhood, a trend that may exist among the Maronites of Lebanon in times of conflict. Most other minority groups, such as the Orthodox Christians, Shi'ites, Alawites, and Druze, consider themselves Arabs with some qualifications and reservations.

Barakat delves further into the ethnicity–language dynamic on pages 40–47. Will add from this later. --Al Ameer (talk) 20:19, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son:

None of what you posted supports your initial claim, namely : That term “Arab” implies being an ethnic group all the way from the Atlantic to the Gulf. No one (with a very few exceptions) denies the reality of Arabism as in the influence that the Arabian groups had on a large scale, even extending to areas where Arabic languages aren’t spoken.

Ennaji doesn’t support your assertion, the author refers specifically to the context of Arabism in North Africa and its relation to the big Berber population that still exist today. The author refers specifically to ethnic groups that are limited to North Africa, it doesn’t imply that the people who speak the varieties of North African Arabic are related through ethnicitiy to the various other groups who happen to speak some form or another of Arabic. A Moroccan speaker of Darija is closer culturally speaking and through ethnicity to a Berber speaker then he is to a Khaleeji. That’s what the author meant, that Arabism had its influence on NA within that very specific context, it didn’t imply that this suddenly trandformed them into a radically different population from the Berber speaker.

Again, the second author (Shoup) refers specifically to the NA context. He doesn’t imply that Arabic speakers in NA are different from Berber speakers, he acknowledges that the term ethnicity can be confusing and that it really comes down to how you chose to define it. Early Arab nationalists said that Arabs (as in the people who speak some form or another of Arabic) constitute a nation and that border should be built around this perceived nation. But the thing is, that’s just what one group of people are saying. Others say completely different stuff and how they chose to define themselves. I’m myself from muslim Arab background and I clearly reject this notion of ethnicity being based on linguistics only. Anyway, the author you quoted actually supports my original argumentation, namely : that a just middle can be achieved. You can be Arab (as in having cultural influence) and that you can be whatever X also happens to have lived in the area where you lived. A Levantine Arab can be proud of his pre Islamic North West Semitic heritage while being proud of the reality of Arabism of where he lives.

In regards of the second paragraph from Shoup, : Yes, if you chose to define ethnicity only based around linguistic considerations, then yeah, “Arabs” are an ethnic group. But the problem I see with this logic (and there’s a lot of them) is that the author assumes that the reality on the ground is one where everyone accepts this “pact” or that people in the past when pan Arabism was at its peak in the 50-60’s that everyone agreed with this. Just go see what were the other movements in each specific region like Egypt, the Levant, etc. that were in competition with Arab nationalists. Those people aren’t from minority groups, they came very much (like me) from Arabic speaking and muslim background and clearly rejected Arab nationalist rhetoric. Again Ameer, why is the biggest political group after the Ba’ath a Syrian nationalist one with a very specific “Syria first” minded type ideology? You think those people are only composed of Levantine Christians ? I wouldn’t be surprised if there were more muslims in the SNPP then there were Christians tbh (I don’t have stats in this regards )

For Barakat, he also doesn’t support your notion of ethnicity. (according to what you posted) He does speak of “nationhood” but “nationhood” doesn’t always imply common ethnicity. Just go see countries like Swtizerland or Spain who are considered nations even though they’re composed of people with different ethnic background and languages. Now that this is put aside, I still see several problems with the claims of Barakat. While that what he says is true, that the MENA region is seen as “Arab” (which, again, I must remind you, doesn’t nec. mean ethnicity), he bases his claims on several buzzwords which some of you here have been repeating. I don’t know if Barakat goes more deeply in his claims, but I would be curious to see if he ever supports his claims about having a common “language”, “culture”, etc. I already told you the problems with those claims, the MENA region doesn’t have a unified linguistic situation outside of the use of MSA. The culture is Arab in the sense that Arab culture influenced the different cultures from the MENA region, but this doesn’t imply that there was a homogenization of culture all from the atlantic to the Gulf. Sociopolitical problems are also pretty different from one region to another. Religious sectarianism doesn’t affect Morocco the same way it affects Lebanon and Iraq for example. The rest isn’t clear to what the author is referring to. Economic interests aren’t remotely common even within people the same country. Also, in regards of collective memory, the author isn’t clear to what he refers to. And lol at the rest : Fewer still are those who speak Arabic as their mother tongue without sharing with the majority a sense of nationhood, a trend that may exist among the Maronites of Lebanon in times of conflict. Most other minority groups, such as the Orthodox Christians, Shi'ites, Alawites, and Druze, consider themselves Arabs with some qualifications and reservations.” I’m sure that he has solid stats supporting this.

Btw, can you answer my questions :

1-How do you explain that there are people of Arab background who would deny your assertion of common ethnicity ? Please, leave aside the insults of being “self hating” or something of this sort, as if the only reason why someone wouldn’t agree with you is because he dislikes himself.

2-What is your opinion on the standardization movements in regards of the vernaculars that are spoken in the MENA region ? As a Lebanese, I’m aware that someone like Said Akl tried to do this but in his regards, it had more to do with Maronite sectarianism than anything else. But putting aside the nationalist reasons, do you think there are valid reasons to tackle the linguistic issues in the area ?

3-What’s your opinion on the pre Islamic history of the region ? Should it be accorded the same respect as the post Islamic one ?

4- If someone agreed with your idea of ethnicity, can you tell me when did this concept of ethnicity began officialy ?

5- How do you explain that the second biggest party is a Syrian centric one where its members are not composed of non Arab minorities ? It's a given that they would disagree with you in regards of your assertions.GoulGoul1 (talk) 22:50, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

@GoulGoul: The above sources, and there are more, explicitly hold that the Arabs form an ethnic group on a number of bases, mainly language and self-identity. It also supports the view that the Arabs are a diverse and widespread group and could have multiple/overlapping identities. The racialist concept of ethnicity does not apply to the modern-day definition of Arabs which could be traced to the late 19th/early 20th century or the 1940s. Respectfully, I will not answer your questions because they are not relevant to the specific topic at hand and this is Not A Forum, or a coffeehouse in which we engage in grand debates. --Al Ameer (talk) 22:42, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son:

"The above sources, and there are more, explicitly hold that the Arabs form an ethnic group on a number of bases, mainly language and self-identity."

Yes, essentially what I already said, if you consider language a good enough factor to consider it as an ethnicity. But who says that this is the accepted wisdom in the area ? I clearly don’t think myself as ethnically French or English just because I hold linguistic ties with both these languages. I don’t see why Arabic gets an easy pass in this regards. I don’t think I need to remind you that several Lebs (and not only Maronites) who refuse this “ethnicity” that you’re so intent on putting on the back of everyone.

"The racialist concept of ethnicity does not apply to the modern-day definition of Arabs which could be traced to the late 19th/early 20th century or the 1940s."

Of course it can’t, because there’s way too much differences in the region for one to work. Eseentialy, it’s language (MSA) that “holds” this region. "Respectfully, I will not answer your questions because they are not relevant to the specific topic at hand and this is Not A Forum, or a coffeehouse in which we engage in grand debates."

So you’re essentially running away from very relevant questions. Here are your options : Either you modify the article and specify that “ethnicity” isn’t a common accepted wisdom across the region and tackle every and single member of the MENA region specifying their relations with this supposed “Ethnicity” and you actually provide a real background to what is happening on the ground or you actually answer to my questions. I’m even going to explain to you why they are relevant ones : Your initial claim is that the area where Arabic languages are spoken form an ethnicity. My first question address this claim and makes it clear that what you take for granted isn’t accepted as you make it to be or when people actually accept Arabism, they have very different views of what it actually constitutes. (or some just refuse categorically) How is it possible for people to be of Arab background and being a common ethnicity from someone of Morocco while at the same time refusing this categorization? Don’t you find this contradictory

This brings us to our second point : Knowing that MSA is the link of past pan Arabist movements, do you consider vernacular standardization a threat to your movement ? I mean, I’m going to help you here, : you can still be of the same ethnic stock as someone even if the linguistic ties aren’t this homogeneous in the first place.

Third point : The problem I see with this article is that it does zero mention that several groups in the region aren’t only limited to Arabian cultural influence. There’s zero mention of pre Islamic history of each of the several different groups of the MENA region. The history of the different individuals didn’t begin with Islam.

Fourth point : When did the people of the MENA begin to think of themselves as a common ethnicity ? Is this a recent thing ? It’s really relevant if you’re going to understand who you are as a people. It can even help this article if someone with bad intents would want to attack you on these bases. The last point is directly tied to the first one : a Syrian centric identity goes directly into opposition of pan Arab movements, and you don’t mention this for some reason. Do you remember in 1958 when Lebanon went into civil war, the SNPP didn’t remotely associate with your friend Nasser’s ideology of pan Arabism and clearly fought against him and his friends. So yeah, it would be relevant if you could mention all these ideological movements who also have different ways of defining themselves.

Anyway , my friend, I’m here just to help you. Your claims are built on mud, it can only profit you if you can answer my questions.GoulGoul1 (talk) 16:06, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Judaism

@Infantom: Since when did Judaism are an ethnic,? anyone of any ethnic group can convert to Judaism. Or be as before, or remove the entire section of the article.--HailesG (talk) 19:13, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Judaism isn't an ethnicity but an ethnic religion and conversion requires assimilation into the Jewish people. The section should be in the right context, otherwise it would be incorrect and misleading. Infantom (talk) 14:48, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

If this an ethnic religion and conversion requires assimilation into the Jewish people what it does in this article?, there are a lot of ethnic religions in the Arab world, such as Copts, Yezidism, Shabakism etc. So you can move it to the Demographics of the Arab League or Arab World. This article relates only to the Arab people.HailesG (talk) 18:36, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you, the Jewish section in Demographics of the Arab World is more appropriate option. Infantom (talk) 15:58, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

Infantom, indeed. Rachida Dati's mother is also of Berber Jewish heritage [9]. Soupforone (talk) 04:26, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Also, Steve Jobs was raised in a Swiss/German family. He therefore wasn't exactly culturally Arabian either. Soupforone (talk) 04:19, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Canvassing

ar:User:HailesG tried to canvass voters for this discussion (titled "Proposal") on arwiki as can be evident from his contributions on my and others' talk pages there. --Meno25 (talk) 06:13, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Unacceptable canvassing ! so I've hidden it and warn the user! (here)--Alaa :)..! 11:50, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Arab Diaspora: Arab imigrants to Canada

In section 4.2 (Arab Diaspora), at the end of the third paragraph, we find the following sentence:

"With a staggering (750,925) of Canadian Arabs residing in one of Canada's 11 major cities.[145][146][147]"

I have checked the references given here, pluss reference [144] at the end of the previous sentence. References [146] and [147], both of which lead to NHS Profile, Canada, 2011; Census Data, give the total number of persons in Canada with Arabic as their mother tongue as 327,870, and the number who "most often [speak Arabic] at home" as 181,790. Reference [145] leads to the web-page "Who are Arab Canadians". In the section "Waves of Arab Imigration," Montreal is listed as the city with by far the largest Arab minority. I cannot find the exact number here, but according to a table in this section with the title "Total Population of Canadian Arabs in Select Cities," there are approximately 267,000 "Canadian Arabs" origin in Montreal. Finally, according to reference [144] the total number of "people of Arab origin" in Canada in 2001 was "almost 350,000," i.a. "1.2% of the total Canadian population". (I have not succeeded in accessing the newest version of these data.)

All of this means that the number 750,925, given in the quoted sentence (which, moreover, gives no indication of which "one of Canada's 11 major cities" it refers to), cannot be correct. I have therefore replaced the quoted sentence with the following (deleting for the time being references 146 and 147):

"According to the website "Who are Arab Canadians," Montreal, the Canadian city with the largest Arab population, has approximately 267,000 Arab inhabitants.[145]"

Obviously, it would be better to refer directly to the census data, but I can't find these data for Montreal in the NHS materials. Perhaps someone who knows the NHS system better than I can do this and, while they're at it, get the exact figure? Filursiax (talk) 11:09, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Arab league / Arab homeland

At the end of the third paragraph of the intro to this article, we find the following unspecific and somewhat pinned-on sentence: "The Arab League endorsed the principle of an Arab homeland whilst respecting the individual sovereignty of its member states." The sentence references two legitimate sources, but I cannot find any mention of such an "endorsement" in either of them. Maybe I missed it, but in that case the date when the endorsement was made should have been included in the text, particularly since the sentences before this one deal with the distant past (Abbasids, Ummayyads etc.). If the references are correct, it would also be helpful with page numbers — and an indication of the relevance of this statement for the current paragraph's discussion of Medieaval Islam... Filursiax (talk) 21:23, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

If the Arab league just used the word قومية in a non-disapproving way in its official statements, then it would have been implicitly endorsing the idea of an Arab homeland... AnonMoos (talk) 22:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

WP:INFOBOXFLAG

The infobox was in clear violation of WP:INFOBOXFLAG. Starting this thread to see if consensus wishes to override this guideline. Thoughts ? - Mlpearc (open channel) 20:18, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

As has been discussed before, the only remotely appropriate flags would be the Arab League flag and the 1917 Arab Revolt flag, but neither of those actually works too well for this article... AnonMoos (talk) 07:43, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 25 May 2017

Zalonsa (talk) 09:25, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 13:14, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

Amir/Bliuliae

Here is the Amir of the Bedouin tribe that is believed to have been descended from the Bliulaie of the Geografia of Ptolemy [10]. Soupforone (talk) 14:46, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Tweaks

Tarook97, as Aṭlas and SpikeballUnion asked you, please desist from making non-consensus tweaks. Soupforone (talk) 05:02, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

A misstep on my part. My apologies. The tweak is to give a similar yet much more notable example, at least compared to the example given for South America, and a slightly better fitting image for neater text. That OK with you? Tarook97 (talk) 12:37, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Bent and Bekhti are both prominent and the files when unadjusted fit around the same. However, Bekhti also has some recent Kabyle heritage [11], so Bent is more felicitous. Soupforone (talk) 14:43, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Historical inaccuracy/edit request

On the second paragraph it says "The Arabs are first mentioned in the mid-ninth century BCE as a tribal people dwelling in the central Arabian Peninsula. "

When I clicked on the source link the book of origin says that first time Arabs were mentioned in mid of ninth century and the were a group of people settling in Levant. Particularly in modern day north of Jordan, South West Syria, and Biqa valley in Lebanon.

This need to be corrected, especially if we are using that source. Yas.sawalha (talk) 18:16, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree, I also noticed thisGoulGoul1 (talk) 19:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

I was going to say something about this. This should be edited ASAP as what is contradicted by the very source proposed. What should be added is exactly what the source says. Please replace:"The Arabs are first mentioned in the mid-ninth century BCE as a tribal people dwelling in the central Arabian Peninsula" with "Arabs are first mentioned in the Assyrian annals of the mid-ninth century BCE as a tribal people living in Eastern and South Syria, and in northern Arabian Peninsula." CaliphoShah (talk) 00:41, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

@Yas.sawalha, GoulGoul1, and CaliphoShah: I'd like to perform this edit request, but where in the cited text (page number? exact text?) does it say what you claim? Is it the statement on page 2 about the Ituraeans?--Izno (talk) 17:58, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

It's in page 18, first paragraph. The exact text in the source starts with "It first occurs with". I would like the proposed edit in my previous comment to replace what's in the wiki. CaliphoShah (talk) 23:02, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with requests. It says the request has been answered but the edit hasn't been made yet. The article still says Arabs were first mentioned being in the central Arabian peninsula when the source says something else. CaliphoShah (talk) 04:24, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Done I've implemented a similar sentence (it feels like close paraphrasing but I respect the desire to fit the source).

|answered= describes "when the request has been accepted, rejected, or on hold awaiting user input", not that the request has solely been implemented. In the future, change the parameter when you have provided the additional input requested. Izno (talk) 12:48, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

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References

CambridgeBayWeather has just indicated that there is no clear denouement to the discussion above [12]. Therefore, please do not change the qualifier in the lede from the neutral population to either of the debated ethnolinguistic group or ethnic group qualifiers. Soupforone (talk) 14:13, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Image of Ishmael

@Soupforone: I know all that you mean but (the Abrahamic traditions and beliefs attribute all the Arabs to the Arabs descend from Ishmael, the son of Abraham. Some of the texts of the ancient Iraqi and Levantine civilizations mentioned the names of some tribes such as Kedar, Qadim, Jandbo, Saba, Thamud, Nabat, Mesa, Taima, Lahyan, Wadim, Madin, Mabsam, Mashmaa, Hadar, Batar, Nafish, Qudma, Abel and Domah. These nomadic tribes were mentioned in the Assyrian texts and were said to be spread from the Arabian Peninsula to Egypt to the borders of Assyria and were known for trade across the desert between Canaan and Egypt.

• Islamic traditions consider Ishmael to be the ancestor of Arab people
• Ishmael is recognized as an important prophet and patriarch of Islam. Muslims believe that Ishmael was the firstborn of Abraham, born to him from his second wife Hagar. Ishmael is recognized by Muslims as the ancestor of several prominent Arab tribes and being the forefather of Muhammad. Muslims also believe that Muhammad was the descendant of Ishmael that would establish a great nation, as promised by God in the Old Testament
• Ishmael was considered the ancestor of the Northern Arabs and Muhammad was linked to him through the lineage of the patriarch Adnan. Ishmael may also have been the ancestor of the Southern Arabs through his descendant Qahtan.
• According to rabbinic traditions, his two wives were Aisha and Fatima, whose names are the same as those of Muhammad's wife and daughter Both Judaism and Islam see him as the ancestor of Arab peoples.

The painting is unrepresentative since very few ancient peninsular Arabs were blond or of a pallid complexion. The recent ancient DNA analysis on the Canaanites/Phoenicians found that they did not carry the Europe-specific alleles for light skin and blondism. Other depictions of Ishmael also show him with a markedly different appearance (ex. [13]). Anyway, all of this is moot since it is still under discussion whether the population is an ethnolinguistic group or an ethnic group. Soupforone (talk) 04:40, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

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Arabia Petraea

Tarook97, as Pinkbeast explained, the science files do not spillover; neither on desktop, laptop or mobile screens (as per online screen emulators). Anyway, if for whatever reason you don't want the Abbasid Caliphate polymath Al-Jahiz's Kitab there, then please explain why. Cause as it is, the orientalist fantasy plate under late kingdoms appears to be the actual oddity. It has little to do with the Tanukhid dynasty and the other such kingdoms, so a map of Arabia Petraea would probably be better [14]. Soupforone (talk) 04:22, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Well, quite. The cited policy doesn't actually apply and the image is pertinent; it should be restored forthwith. Also support the map-swapping. Pinkbeast (talk) 22:57, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Cool. Tarook97 is currently blocked again, but let's wait a bit for him to explain. Soupforone (talk) 04:30, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Two weeks? I would put it back in the interim, grumpy editor that I am. I wonder if anyone else would like to chip in? Pinkbeast (talk) 07:11, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Okay, you can perhaps try that. Two weeks is quite the wait. Soupforone (talk) 13:46, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

I'll sit on it over the weekend to see if anyone else is reading this. Pinkbeast (talk) 14:13, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Partly done. I'll leave swapping the maps and describing the replacement to you. Pinkbeast (talk) 02:34, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

 Done. Soupforone (talk) 03:15, 25 September 2017 (UTC)