Talk:Antwerp, New York

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Origins.

@DeVerm: Dear fellow editor,
I noticed that you recently reverted, at 20:01 on 10 May 2016, the edit I applied at 19:06 on 17 March 2016. In your edit summary, you stated: manually reverted edit of removing Antwerp because today Antwerp is in Belgium but in the relevant part of history, Belgium was part of Holland.

Please may I respectfully point out that, at the time of the foundation of Antwerp, New York (1803-1810), the European Antwerp had already been incorporated (1795-1814) into the First French Republic, and can therefore not be deemed to have been Dutch at the time (see section 17th–19th centuries). Although the 9 provinces (including Antwerp) that would become Belgium in 1830 were attached to the United Kingdom of the Netherlands from 1815-1830, Antwerp had always been part of the Southern Netherlands, and was never part of the Dutch Republic (1581-1795), of the Batavian Republic (1795-1806), or of the Kingdom of Holland (1806-1810) which was itself annexed to the First French Empire until 1813.
Also, from a cultural point of view and long before the creation of the Kingdom of Belgium in 1830, Antwerp would always have been referred to as Flemish and never as Dutch; for example, the Antwerp-born painter Anthony van Dyck is defined as a Flemish Baroque artist, not as a Dutch painter.
Please may I therefore suggest that you consider reverting your latest edit? Thank you very much for your consideration.
With kind regards;
Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(guestbook)} 18:21, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

@Pdebee: Hello Patrick,

My edit was not in this article, but in List of place names of Dutch origin, but I don't mind discussing this here. I believe my edit is correct, as it is about place names of Dutch origin, for which it does not matter if France was occupying Holland or not, or in which form the larger area of the Netherlands was at that period (which included much of present day Belgium and Luxembourg. I would even go so far to claim that the name of the Belgium Antwerp is of Dutch origin itself; the only reason that it isn't listed is because it was part of the "Dutch territory". Flemish? As you can read in Flemish, it is a dialect of Dutch; all place names of Flemish origin are in this list as well. I consider myself to be a "Hollander" but have to admit at being Dutch as well. Belgium became a country in 1830, but even that doesn't change things in case Antwerp, NY would have been founded in say 1833, because the name still has it's Dutch origin and Dutch is, still today, the majority language in Belgium Flemish#Dutch_in_Flanders DeVerm (talk) 19:10, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

@DeVerm: Dear fellow editor,

Thank you for your prompt reply. Yes, I created this section here because our edits were related to Antwerp, New York but you are quite right, it would have been much better if I'd put it in the talk page at List of place names of Dutch origin; I can only apologize for this oversight on my part.

I fully agree with you that Flemish dialects are closely affiliated with the Dutch language, and it is therefore very easy to make the case that an encyclopedia should be able to conflate the two languages as a common basis for the origin of place names. Still, I thought it was rather odd that the name of 'Antwerp' should have been included in a list of place names of Dutch (national) origin, when it is very clearly not a city in The Netherlands.

As someone with both Flemish and Dutch relatives myself, I understand the finer subtleties separating these two cultures and languages, as well as the profound cultural differences between these two nations, their respective histories and distinctive peoples, as I am sure you do too. That's why I found it strange that, in your edit summary, you stated that ... but in the relevant part of history, Belgium was part of Holland, which is clearly not the case historically. On the other hand, if your edit summary had stated that you reverted my edit ... because Flemish is closely related to Dutch linguistically, I would have agreed with you fully and let it be because, after all, our encyclopedia does not have an article on the List of place names of Flemish origins.

With kind regards;

Patrick. ツ Pdebee.^{(talk)(guestbook)} 20:16, 11 May 2016 (UTC)