Talk:Anton Webern/Archive 1

Archive 1

Who Shot Anton Webern?

There's a play, Who Shot Anton Webern?, which states that it was Private First Class Raymond Norwood Bell of Mount Olive, North Carolina who shot Webern; this is corroborated elsewhere[1]. However, both of those accounts say that the shooting was accidental, not related to black-market activities. Anybody have insight? --moof 20:52, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

As I remember reading, there was a bust in progress at the house at which he was staying; it was surrounded by soldiers who were instructed not to let anyone escape, and they hadn't yet made their move in. Webern stepped onto a veranda for his after-dinner cigar, and one of the soldiers shot him, thinking it was someone trying to escape. I'd have to look around to see where I read this, but as far as I know it was an "accidental" shooting by a soldier who was literally following orders. Antandrus (talk) 20:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The nyu link above doesn't work for me, so I can't check it. I'd be interested in seeing it because I'm uncomfortable with a play as a source for "fact." But that said, the play script I saw does not say the shooter was drunk, only that he later WAS a drunk. I'm going to remove the word from the article. John (Jwy) 23:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree; thanks. I'd never read that he was drunk either. Antandrus (talk) 23:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd always heard that the man who shot him was so filled with remorse over the killing that he later became an alcoholic. This first article Google pulled up seem to confirm that:

http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/050907-NL-webern.html

-- Rizzleboffin 00:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

For the first 15 years, the only source of information on Webern's death was the Webern family, who related that while visiting at the home of his son-in-law Benno Mattel, Webern was shot by an American soldier while Mattel was being arrested by the Americans for black-market activity. The family did not know the name of the soldier or precise details of the shooting, and no statement was released on the incident by the U.S. Army. In 1959 Hans Moldenhauer launched an attempt to obtain papers from Army files relating to the incident. He succeeded in contacting several persons involved, and he published his findings in the book The Death of Anton Webern (Philosophical Library, 1961). To summarize Moldenhauer's conclusions, Mattel had been approaching American soldiers wanting to buy such items as sugar and coffee to sell on the black market. The Army decided to entrap Mattel and sent PFC Raymond Bell (a cook) and 1st Sergeant Andrew Murray to Mattel's house on September 15 for this purpose. While Murray and Bell were negotiating with Mattel in the kitchen on a price for the items, Webern had gone out onto the front porch to smoke a cigar. When Mattel came to an agreement with the soldiers and took out his money to make the payment, the soldiers drew their pistols and told Mattel he was under arrest. Murray then sent Bell back to the Army post to get reinforcements to accompany Mattel to jail. Bell, with pistol in hand, dashed out the front door and collided with Webern on the front porch. Bell thought he was being attacked by an accomplice of Mattel and shot Webern. Bell was already dead when Moldenhauer wrote his book, but Bell's widow related to Moldenhauer that her husband had great remorse over the shooting and died of alcoholism. ThomasM 22:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Could you put a References section with a citation of the book in the article? I think the article is consistent with that explanation now, yes? John (Jwy) 22:45, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! John (Jwy) 04:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Twelve-tone technique

"he became one of the best-known exponents of the twelve-tone technique"

This does not make any sense. Selfinformation 17:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Why? Henry^Flower 17:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand that my comment is not entirely clear... I meant to suggest a rephrasing of that fact. It seems to me strange to call a person an exponent of a technique... Do you understand? Selfinformation 23:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

No, you've still lost me. What's the difficulty? Henry^Flower 19:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me semantically incorrect to state a person to be an exponent of an abstractum such as a technique... Somebody has already changed it to "he became one of the best-known proponents of the twelve-tone technique", which makes more sense, in terms of word choice... Best, Selfinformation 19:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Synaesthesia

My Late and Post-Tonal Analysis lecturer, Dr. Alan Street, the editor of the journal Musical Analysis, reliably informs me that Webern often used sound to convey the power of a smell (synaesthesia), should this be included in the article? I don't have any books that quote this at the moment, but I could look it up in the Grove dictionary next week, when I've got this essay on Op. 6 / iii finished... KLF Fitton 19:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I had a quick google. There were a few hits, but they all just seemed to be talking about Messiaen's synesthesia and then going on to Webern in a different context. But if you find a source, by all means. Henry^Flower 19:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Grove online doesn't seem to have anything on synesthesia in the Webern article or any mention of Webern in the synesthesia article. Doesn't mean there's nothing to the subject, but it doesn't appear to be in Grove... -- Rizzleboffin 19:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

A follow-up: I just checked the indexes of a few books on Webern, including Kathryn Bailey's The life of Webern, Malcolm Hayes' Anton von Webern, Allen Forte's The atonal music of Anton Webern, and Hans Moldenhauer's Anton von Webern, a chronicle of his life and work, and didn't find a mention of synesthesia. I'd be interested to hear about Webern & synesthesia, but don't find anything on it. Perhaps Prof. Street has written something on this subject? -- Rizzleboffin 22:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

WEBERN AND THE TRANSFORMATION OF NATURE details Webern's fascination with scent and his likening of scent to his music and vice versa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.247.31.191 (talk) 17:59, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

p. 216 MONTENSEM (talk) 02:39, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Not sure if it's the same

But sound sample is about the same as sampling (music) I think? Schissel | Sound the Note! 23:14, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Stravinsky on Webern

The section on Webern's music begins with a quote from Stravinsky: "Doomed to total failure in a deaf world of ignorance and indifference, he inexorably kept on cutting out his diamonds, his dazzling diamonds, of whose mines he had a perfect knowledge." I love this quote and couldn't agree more, but shouldn't we have a source for it? The best source I can find is A Chicago Symphony Orchestra Program, but I'm not sure if this meets wikipedia standards. JeanneShade (talk) 07:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

If memory serves, this quotation is from Stravinsky's "Geleitwort" on p. 7 of the second volume of Die Reihe (1955, titled "Foreword" on p. vii of the 1958 English edition). However, I would want to confirm that source before citing it.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 16:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Using the search inside feature of Amazon, Camrbidge's Webern Studies seems to confirm this: "Die Reihe 2...opened with a section which...was truly Webern's testimonials.... In a famous epigraph Stravinsky refers to 'his diamonds, his dazzling diamonds' (p. vii)" (xvi). Unfortunately it still doesn't give the full quote. Fortunately my library has a copy of the second Die Reihe, which I will try get & find the quote in soon. JeanneShade (talk) 18:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Just got Die Reihe 2 -- your memory is excellent, the quote is right there in the forward, which reads in full: "The 15 of September 1945, the day of Anton Webern's death, should be a day of mourning for any receptive musician. We must hail not only this great composer but also a real hero. Doomed to a total failure in a deaf world of ignorance and indifference he inexorably kept cutting out his diamonds, his dazzling diamonds, the mines of which he had such a perfect knowledge." This is actually very slightly different than the quote currently on the page, so I'm going to fix the quote and source it accordingly. Thanks so much for the help in finding this. JeanneShade (talk) 02:11, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I meant to get the full quotation for you, since I own a copy of the English Die Reihe, but you got there first. There are some finicky things about the citation format that need fixing, but they are trivial, and I will attend to them.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This is a Start-class article; it contains notable gaps in the biography and musicology. My detailed review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 16:22, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Endorsing Nazi regime?

I have removed the following sentence from this article:

<<During the war, however, his patriotic fervor led him to endorse the regime in a series of letters to Joseph Hueber, where he described Hitler on 2 May 1940 as "this unique man" who created "the new state" of Germany.>>

The words "endorse" and "fervor" in the first half of that sentence are not supported by the second half quotations. Hitler as a unique man? Nazi Germany as a new state? Many opponents of Hitler & the Nazi party would share those views too. They are not exclusive to people who support fascism. There's no evidence here that Webern endorsed the Nazi regime. To endorse something is to say "I support this". Not to keep silent or to express neutral opinions that even anti-Nazi activists would agree with. The quotations might be sourced but the conclusion from those quotations is original research.--175.138.214.95 (talk) 08:19, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Evidently you did not actually consult the Moldenhauer book before removing the sentence. Although it may distort the Moldenhauers' position somewhat (and might require rephrasing the sentence, particularly with regard to the word "endorse", which interprets a longer phrase, "ideologies to which Webern, along with most of the German people, subscribed"), the other letters cited at length in Moldenhauer support the view that Webern's "patriotism grew to a degree so boundless that for a time it distorted even his cultural outlook", though the tone of the sentence now removed does not sit comfortably with the Moldenhauers' characterization, "Proof of this tragic self-delusion is found in a series of letters to Josef Huber". Sources must be represented accurately, of course, and when they are not, corrective action must be taken, but in this case I think you may have thrown out the baby with the bath water.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Why is this article painting Webern as an opponent of the Nazi ideology? In The Rest is Noise, Alex Ross identifies him as a supporter of it. Toccata quarta (talk) 18:48, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

How does this article paint Webern "as an opponent of the Nazi ideology"? I see a single sentence supporting the idea that Webern protested Nazi policy at one point. Do you think that his later evident support should be reinforced in some way?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:08, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

By omission. It is the only information that the article currently provides on this topic, so that is the impression a casual reader is going to walk away with. Toccata quarta (talk) 06:49, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

I see. I guess I had assumed the excised quotation had been restored to the article, possibly in a modified form in order more accurately to reflect the source. I see it has not. Are you now agreeing that this should be done?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:48, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Rationale?

I note that ToccataQuarta has excised the following material from the article:

Although Webern had sharply attacked Nazi cultural policies in private lectures given in 1933, their intended publication did not take place at that time, which proved fortunate since this later "would have exposed Webern to serious consequences."<ref>Webern 1963, 7, 19–20.</ref>

The edit summary indicates that a rationale explaining its "problematic" nature will be found here on the Talk page, but I am not finding it. What is problematic about it?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 15:53, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

As I said previously, the article gave the casual reader the impression that Webern was a critic of the Nazi regime, by not mentioning his statements praising Hitler and "the new Germany" (or whatever expression he actually used). The information may be restored, but with proper contextualisation. Toccata quarta (talk) 16:11, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Now I am really confused. Which material are you referring to—this documentation of "sharp attack", or the other documentation of "endorsement" of Nazi policies, or both? What sort of contextualisation do you regard as proper, without straying into the realm of Original Research, or inserting an unsourced editorial point of view?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:06, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you find confusing, but I was simply saying that if the passage I removed is to be restored, it would be ideal to have the article mention other aspects of Webern's relationship to the Nazi regime. Toccata quarta (talk) 18:51, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

A second cited claim was removed from this article, and is discussed in the section just above this one. You posted a comment about it a few weeks ago. Since it was of the opposite persuasion to this one, I could not be sure which of the two you meant to restore, or both, and how the objections surrounding them should be resolved. It is of course not uncommon on Wikipedia to simply present contradictory data of this sort, since just about any interpretation would require a source.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:05, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry about the confusion—my original comment was posted in that section simply because of being related to the issue I wished to raise, not because I was commenting on the first deleted passage. So I repeat what I said previously—both things should be in the article, provided they are sourced. Toccata quarta (talk) 19:12, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Both items were sourced to begin with. Can you see why I am getting more confused, rather than less?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:31, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

If the claim that Webern endorsed the Nazi ideology was sourced, then why did it get deleted? I was under the impression that it was deleted due to being unsourced. Toccata quarta (talk) 21:51, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

That is a very good question. The anonymous editor who deleted it in March 2011 called attention to the sentence, but omitted to mention it was sourced. Here it is again, with the reference included:

During the war, however, his patriotic fervor led him to endorse the regime in a series of letters to Joseph Hueber, where he described Hitler on 2 May 1940 as "this unique man" who created "the new state" of Germany.<ref>Moldenhauer and Moldenhauer 1978, 527</ref>

This is why I said to the anonymous editor, "Evidently you did not actually consult the Moldenhauer book before removing the sentence". Perhaps that was not clear from the context of the above discussion. The anonymous editor had objected that "The words 'endorse' and 'fervor' in the first half of that sentence are not supported by the second half quotations", and I conceded that, "Although it may distort the Moldenhauers' position somewhat …", etc., which you can read above. Nothing further has come of this discussion in a year and a half, so I am obliged to you for reviving the discussion. Now, what shall we do about it?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:43, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Alex Ross vs scholarly opinion

Just to flag up what seem to me a couple of contentious sentences just added to the article:

During the Allied invasion of Germany, the Americans tried to weaken the influence of German composers favored by the Nazis like Richard Strauss or Wagner.[19] Instead, in new institutions like the Darmstadt School, they promoted the most radical avant-garde, which soon became synonimous with the Second Viennese School.[19]

I won't claim expertise in this subject, but I do know that this claim has been challenged by such scholars as Amy Beal ("Negotiating Cultural Allies: American Music in Darmstadt, 1946-1956"), Ian Wellens (Music on the frontline: Nicolas Nabokov's struggle against communism and middlebrow culture published 2002), Toby Thacker (Music After Hitler, 1945-1955 published 2007) and Martin Iddon (New Music at Darmstadt: Nono, Stockhausen, Cage, and Boulez published 2013). Ross is a journalist/music critic rather than a scholar, so I would hesitate to present his book as a lone authoritative voice in this matter. Perhaps another editor can make a start to balance Ross's contentious claim (I will when I have the time) - in the meantime I am flagging this up as unbalanced. Alfietucker (talk) 12:03, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

On second thoughts, I decided to remove those sentences altogether. They were poorly written as they were, the first being clearly a nonsensical statement in its own right. The scholarly publications I've previously mentioned should probably still be considered. Alfietucker (talk) 12:41, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I guess I could have written it better (anyway, I really think that's what Ross is conveying). It's a complex issue, with many differing views (both with scholars and here in WP). We could include various views. However, completely dismissing Ross's book as not scholarly enough is IMO a bit too much, especially since the book was nominated to a Pulitzer. I think I remember Richard Taruskin saying something similar (i.e. avant-garde music being used as a political weapon). I think he's scholarly enough.--Fauban 18:10, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

This is the first I've heard that Pulitzer Prizes are awarded based on scholarliness. I always thought they were intended to reward journalists for superior writing and reporting skills. While it is certainly true that Richard Taruskin, by contrast, has got all the scholarly credentials you could wish for, I think you will find that he makes Alex Ross look very uncontroversial by comparison.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:22, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Pretty much what I was going to write myself. Just to add a couple of further thoughts. A propos "I really think that's what Ross is conveying", it's very tricky sometimes to paraphrase a source, and I don't know any editor (including myself) who always gets it right. That's the beauty of Wikipedia - that there's several other editors who can refine such paraphrasing or simply challenge a reading, which hopefully leads to a more firmly anchored reading of sources.

As for Taruskin, as fine a scholar as he is, he is notorious for "shooting from the hip" at times instead of making well-substantiated points. So rather than assume everything he writes is infallible, it's as well to check every claim and assertion he makes, perhaps most particularly when it comes to matters of fact about Darmstadt, against the work of other scholars who have actually done the spadework in terms of research regarding what went on during those years. Alfietucker (talk) 18:40, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, good edit. Ross is a well-known revisionist trying to perform multiple hatchet jobs on 20th century composers he doesn't like. In fact the whole Webern article is in need of scrutiny: looks like someone somewhere doesn't like Webern very much, hence the overwhelming focus on his apparent love of Hitler (really? why idolise Schoenberg, who reconverted to Judaism at the start of the war?). The Goyvaerts citation is particularly obtuse and needs to be removed but I'm not experienced enough to know the proper protocol for deeming such subjective value judgements strictly irrelevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GregFox (talk • contribs) 11:30, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Since the Goeyvaerts quotation occurs in the section on "Reception", why is his subjective value judgment irrelevant? Perhaps there is a lack of context here that should be rectified: Goeyvaerts was one of the leading figures of the so-called "total serialists" (also identified as "post-Webernian serialism") in the early 1950s. As such, his particular views of Webern (however "obtuse" they may seem) were of critical importance to the development of European musical composition in the post–World War II era.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:20, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Webern and Nazisim

While interesting and of some importance, can we pare back the amount of information on the topic. It has the same column inches as the music. Seems out of balance. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 02:25, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more about the imbalance, but how about adding more about the music? This is a mighty thin article for a composer of Webern's stature. (Mind you, I haven't been doing as much as I might in this department, either.)—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:42, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I took a concentrated stab at adding to and attempting to balance the the "Webern and Nazism" section, but I'll try to add more on his music soon.—MONTENSEM (talk) 06:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

I'd prefer we shorten it to something balanced, even if it misses some nuance and detail. Not to belittle the effort you have put in here, but to me a sentence like "His attitude towards Nazism has been a puzzle to some," and leave it at that. The focus should be the music. Unfortunately, I am feel unqualified to expand the music section, myself. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 01:11, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I think it needs to be addressed, especially as among the epithets against this music are that it is totalitarian, fascist, etc. I recall reading that Krenek et al. had such epithets used against their music, and have read similar in contemporary commentary and scholarship (e.g., Taruskin). This is an important part of Webern scholarship that needs to be addressed. I'll work on the music in the coming week. -MONTENSEM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.153.192 (talk) 17:46, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I've expanded the music section as promised, although there is still much to be done. I have a lot in mind, but I will probably be unable to work more until Dec. I share your commitment to Webern's music as a central focus; but understanding Webern's cultural milieu, including during the time of the Nazis, and not simply asking "Was Webern a Nazi?," is important to understanding Webern's art and vice versa, both generally and particularly (e.g., the overtones of such a phrase as "Zündender Lichtblitz" from op. 29).MONTENSEM (talk) 04:08, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Webern's music

In expanding this section, I'm thinking about subdividing into the following sections after a summary. These are probably too many, so if anyone has suggestions on condensing, please share.

1899–1908, Juvenilia // 1908, Opp. 1–2 // 1908–1914, Opp. 3–11 // 1914–1924, Opp. 12–16 // 1924–1926, Opp. 17–19 // 1927–1934, Opp. 20–22, Op. 24 // 1934–1935, Op. 23, Opp. 25–26 // 1936–1938, Opp. 27–28 // 1938–1943, Opp. 29–31

Thanks.—MONTENSEM (talk) 21:00, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Nine subsections does seem excessive. May I suggest instead just five sections: 1899–1908, Juvenilia // 1908–1914, Opp. 1–11 // 1914–1924, Opp. 12–16 // 1924–1935, Opp. 17–26, Op. 24 // 1936–1943, Opp. 27–31? This has the merit of covering roughly a decade per division, though of course there is the counter-issue of the arguably greater importance of some fairly compact groupings of compositions. I think there is also a danger of this article sinking under its own weight. Too many subsections will invite a more luxuriant treatment of all the compositions. In the case of many other composers (Schoenberg and Stravinsky are good examples), there are separate articles on individual compositions, with only brief mention in the main biographical article. Might that not be a better solution here, as well?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:29, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Webern and Schubert's Romanze "Der Vollmond strahlt auf Bergeshöhn" from Rosamunde

I revised and wrote that Webern orchestrated "at least four" Schubert lieder because, on a cursory search, the Romanze "Der Vollmond strahlt auf Bergeshöhn" from Schubert's Rosamunde had already been orchestrated (by Schubert?). How then could it be given (by Webern) to a Schubertian orchestra (from the piano, as it were)? The Moldenhauers nonetheless catalogue it, and note it as "Nr. 3a" of Rosamunde, which is (according to IMSLP) an entr'acte. Does anyone know anything more about this? Given the problems associated with this assertion, should it be given baldly as cited, simply omitted as unnecessary to establish the setting of Schubert lieder more generally, or qualified as such? MONTENSEM (talk) 04:11, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that the cited source (Moldenhauer and Moldenhauer) states that there are "five extant arrangements", etc. Under the circumstances, it will be necessary to find a source that says Webern did not make this arrangement. For example, was Schubert's original orchestration exactly the same as the version allegedly made by Webern? Did Webern not make his version from Schubert's piano-accompaniment version? Does the entr'acte not have words? Changing the Moldenhauers' version without providing a reliable source amounts to original research.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:24, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Accuracy and clarity of lead section's penultimate sentence

Bpolhemus found the following sentence, particularly its reference to German Romanticism, unclear: "During and shortly after the post-war period, then, Webern was posthumously received with attention first diverted from his sociocultural upbringing and surroundings and, moreover, focused in a direction apparently antithetical to his participation in German Romanticism and Expressionism." What is unclear? The sentence's prepositional phrase "during and shortly after the post-war period" refers the reader back to preceding paragraph: "[Webern's] innovations [...] greatly informed and oriented post-war European, typically serial or avant-garde composers [...]." The sentence itself summarizes claims made in the body of the article and attempts to synthesize them into a general introductory narrative about Webern: see sections 1.1 (Webern's sociocultural upbringing and surroundings), 2.1 (Webern's participation in German Romanticism ...), 2.2 (... and Expressionism), 2.5 (Webern's performance style missed during his post-WWII reception), and 3 (Webern's music canonized in post-WWII Europe, but maybe somewhat problematically as primarily a model of new composition).

To replace this nuanced content with the claim that "widespread official prejudice in Nazi Germany" was the cause of Webern's more limited reception in his own lifetime is so oversimplified as to be inaccurate and is not supported by the article, which instead reads in part: "As a result of official disapproval throughout the '30s, both [Berg and Webern] found it harder to earn a living; Webern lost a promising conducting career which might have otherwise been more noted and recorded and had to take on work as an editor and proofreader for his publishers, Universal Edition" (section 1.3).—MONTENSEM (talk) 21:08, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Anton Webern/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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;Composers Project Assessment of Anton Webern: 2024-05-21 This is an assessment of article Anton Webern by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. Origins/family background/studies Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? No family background. Early career Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? No personal details; married? children? Mature career Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? No personal details. List(s) of works Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. ok Critical appreciation Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Style described; no real musicological critical commentary (Nazi denunciation is interesting, but does not really count here); no public appreciation. Illustrations and sound clips Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) One image; one sound. More images == good. References, sources and bibliography Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article has references; some inline citations. Structure and compliance with WP:MOS Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) Lead is short; other minor MOS issues Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) Article text formatting needs work (quotation are not italicized per MOS) Summary This is a somewhat brief biography. It is sketchy on personal details throughout -- we know nothing of his childhood family environment and possible musical influences there. We also don't know when he met is wife (or even if he had one -- we only learn at the end that he had grandchildren) or married. Presumably this information is in at least one of the cited biographies. The musicology is lacking in critical and popular commentary. While it can be inferred that he was sufficiently well-known to draw the Nazi's attention, we don't know how well-liked his music was, or what the critics thought of it. Article is Start-class; factually defective. Magic♪piano 16:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 16:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 08:01, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Reconsidering the introductory paragraphs

I first read this article on 2020.01.14, and my first reaction was negative about the initial three paragraphs. I'll concede immediately that the purpose of these paragraphs is a general or overall statement of the significance of Webern. However, the introduction is both too detailed and completely lacking in any citations. As the paragraphs summarize information in the following article, I suggest the following, much diminished introduction:

"...was an Austrian composer and conductor. Webern was in the core of those in the circle of the Second Viennese School, including his mentor Arnold Schoenberg and his colleague Alban Berg, among several other composers. Webern exerted influence on contemporaries, upon his mentor Schoenberg. As a tutor, Webern guided and variously influenced other composers, whose music incorporated parts of twelve-tone technique and sometimes reached beyond.

Webern's music was marked by its concision and in its rigorous and resolute apprehension of twelve-tone technique. He innovated in schematic organization of pitch, rhythm, register, timbre, dynamics, articulation, and melodic contour; he redefined imitative contrapuntal techniques; and he used athematicism, abstraction, and lyricism; and his music informed and oriented later composers known for serial or avant-garde product. In the United States, meanwhile, his music attracted the interest of Elliott Carter, Milton Babbitt, and Igor Stravinsky.

During and shortly after the post-war period, then, Webern was posthumously received with attention that was antithetical to his participation in German Romanticism and Expressionism. A richer understanding of Webern began to emerge in the later half of the 20th century, notably in the work of scholars, after archivists and biographers gained access to Webern's sketches, letters, lectures, audio recordings, and other articles of or associated with Webern's estate."

Because of the edits that some may think as "heavy-handed," I offer them here for discussion before enacting them.

Tom Kohn Tgkohn (talk) 22:53, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Reconsidering the Youth, education, and other early experiences in Austria-Hungary paragraphs

My prime observation of this section is that its confusion lies in presenting its material without regard to chronology. I'll grant that there are thematic linkages to the text disregarding time, but the linkages can be retained with a few cross-referential words. Again, because the edits may be seen as "heavy-handed," I offer them here for discussion before enacting them.

"He lived in Graz and Klagenfurt for much of his youth. But his distinct and lasting sense of Heimat was shaped by readings of Peter Rosegger;[2] and moreover by frequent and extended retreats with his parents, sisters, and cousins to his family's country estate, the Preglhof, which Webern's father had inherited upon the death of Webern's grandfather in 1889.[3][4]

In 1902, Webern began attending classes at Vienna University. Art historian Ernst Dietz, Webern's cousin and at that time a student at Graz, may have introduced Webern to the work of the painters Arnold Böcklin and Giovanni Segantini, whom Webern came to admire.[10] Segantini's work was a likely inspiration for Webern's 1905 single-movement string quartet.[11] Wbern studied musicology with Guido Adler at Vienna University, and he wrote his thesis on the Choralis Constantinus of Heinrich Isaac. This interest in early music would greatly influence his compositional technique in later years, especially in terms of his use of palindromic form on both the micro- and macro-scale and the economical use of musical materials.

Some of Webern's earlier thoughts (from 1903) are as amusing as they might be surprising: besides describing some of Alexander Scriabin's music as "languishing junk," he wrote of Robert Schumann's Symphony No. 4 that it was "boring," that Carl Maria von Weber's Konzertstück in F minor was passé, and that he found Johannes Brahms's Symphony No. 3 (which struck Eduard Hanslick as "artistically the most nearly perfect") "cold and without particular inspiration, ... badly orchestrated–grey on grey."[citation needed] These youthful impressions are, although neither complete nor altogether very significant, in some contrast to the considered opinions of Webern in the 1930s, by then a decided nationalist who, as Roland Leich described, "lectured at some length on the utter supremacy of German music, emphasizing that leading composers of other lands are but pale reflections of Germanic masters: Berlioz a French Beethoven, Tchaikovsky a Russian Schumann, Elgar an English Mendelssohn, etc."[citation needed] After all, even when young, Webern had described one of Alexander Glazunov's symphonies as "not particularly Russian"[citation needed] (in contrast to some of Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov's music at the same all-Russian concert) in the same passage as he praised it.

Webern memorialized the Preglhof in a diary poem "An der Preglhof" and in the tone poem Im Sommerwind (1904), both after Bruno Wille's idyll[further explanation needed]. Once Webern's father sold the estate in 1912,[5] Webern referred to it nostalgically as a "lost paradise".[6] He continued to revisit the Preglhof,[7] the family cemetery in Schwabegg, and the surrounding landscape for the rest of his life;[8] and he clearly associated the area, which he took as his home, very closely with the memory of his mother Amelie, who had died in 1906 and whose loss also profoundly affected Webern for decades.[9]

After graduating [include a year of graudation here], Webern took a series of conducting posts at theatres in Ischl, Teplitz (now Teplice, Czech Republic), Danzig (now Gdańsk, Poland), Stettin (now Szczecin, Poland), and Prague before moving back to Vienna. As might be expected, the young Webern was enthusiastic about the music of Ludwig van Beethoven, Franz Liszt, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Franz Schubert ("so genuinely Viennese"), Hugo Wolf, and Richard Wagner, having visited Bayreuth in 1902. He also enjoyed the music of Hector Berlioz and Georges Bizet. In 1904, he reportedly stormed out of a meeting with Hans Pfitzner, from whom he was seeking instruction, when the latter criticized Gustav Mahler and Richard Strauss.[12]

In 1908, Webern wrote rapturously to Schoenberg about Claude Debussy's opera Pelléas et Mélisande, and he conducted some of Debussy's music in 1911. It may have been at Guido Adler's advice that he paid Schoenberg for composition lessons. Webern progressed quickly under Schoenberg's tutelage, publishing his Passacaglia, Op. 1, as his graduation piece in 1908. He also met Berg, then another of Schoenberg's pupils. These two relationships would be the most important in his life in shaping his own musical direction.

Photo of Webern in 1912 "

Tom Kohn Tgkohn (talk) 23:34, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Making Article more Readable

I appreciate all the work that has gone into this article, but a lot of it reads as if it was written in another language and was not fully translated into idiomatic readable English. Just for example, near the beginning of the article this convoluted sentence really threw me for a loop:

“During and shortly after the post-war period, then, Webern was posthumously received with attention first diverted from his sociocultural upbringing and surroundings and, moreover, focused in a direction apparently antithetical to his participation in German Romanticism and Expressionism.”

Does this perhaps mean to say something like:

“After his death, commentators may have minimized the importance of Webern’s early life and influences, and overlooked his engagement with German romanticism and musical expressionism.” (that’s not great either, but it’s shorter and clearer)

Maybe one of you who is more knowledgeable or has contributed more would like to take a stab at making the language more graceful. If not, I might make a stab at it in the coming months. David Couch (talk) 07:17, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

That passage, along with much else, was added by MONTENSEM (talk · contribs). Maybe they want to comment on your suggestions. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:06, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

I will work on this during 2022. MONTENSEM (talk) 09:58, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

I think that clarifying just how Webern was received (by whom is in the prior paragraph) in a positive (and not merely negative, as is already the case) sense will help. This will entail getting deeply into Leibowitz and early Darmstadt, at least in Europe. In the US, his reception as a composer-influential-on-other-composers was less systematized, overshadowed by the relatively Americanized Schoenberg, and probably revolves mostly around Stravinsky, Babbitt, and maybe Carter, although there may be (surely are) others who are not occurring to me at the moment. Cage is an outlier who inhabited both worlds, if I remember correctly. MONTENSEM (talk) 08:48, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

OK, I think I have made the introduction more idiomatic and cohesive with some thoughtful revisions.

Longterm, I would like to elaborate on everything mentioned in the introduction as well as expand the introduction, particularly as regards reception history and influence, which is much more important to really understanding Webern than is the case with many other composers (Darmstadt would feature prominently and both US and later USSR examples would be better traced--who taught who what where about Webern or how subsequent composers learned about and experienced Webern); several quotes and selections, esp. Adorno's cowbells comment with an example thereof, the relevant passage from Op. 21, and Webern's response, but also perhaps Stadlen's comments on and excerpts from Op. 27 (maybe even its noted use in The Sopranos for comparison); more on Webern's early and midlife (at least as much as is in the fascism section, which I might like to revise slightly--Taruskin et al. at the front, centering the importance of this debate among musicologists to Webern's/the Second Viennese School's canonic status, since Taruskin also cites Schoenberg's Great War nationalism and possibly tongue-in-cheek "100 years" remark, as well as Bailey's thoughts on Krasner); and finally the music (articles on each work and more specific periodization: there are three to six distinct periods in Webern's oeuvre, and most neatly closer to six in my estimation). It might also be interesting to mention what became of the people in Webern's life and to better detail his relationships with them, not least Schoenberg. MONTENSEM (talk) 07:08, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

--also performances of Webern's music and his conducting engagements would be worthwhile additions MONTENSEM (talk) 07:10, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

--lastly, Julian Johnson's work on Webern could be better incorporated, especially his incredibly insightful passage on Op. 5/v, to name the first example that comes to mind MONTENSEM (talk) 07:16, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

ok, truly lastly, someone somewhere--I cannot remember who anymore--has a striking gloss on Webern's concision being not only an immature tendency but something latent even in the earliest works, foundational, and unique ... it may be in the liner notes of the second Boulez set; I will check sometime MONTENSEM (talk) 07:20, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

What else: Webern and minimalism and process music; more clarity on pan-Germanism from 19th c to post-WWII... MONTENSEM (talk) 07:35, 10 June 2022 (UTC)