Talk:Anne Welles, Countess of Ormond

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I still don't see Anne Welles' notability. She was born, had parents, married, had children, and died. What exactly makes her notable? Are there sources discussing her in more detail than as "wife of the 3rd Earl"? I haven't yet had a look at the book, but the Butler family lineage is a genealocical listing which doesn't confer notability; it also is not a reliable source.

Why is her title spelled "Ormond" and not "Ormonde"? The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica uses "Ormonde", as do all other relevant Wikipedia articles. Is there a reliable source for this spelling? Huon (talk) 14:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

The Earls of Ormond spelled their name without the "e". The dukes of Ormonde used the "e". As for notability, the wife of an important Irish peer such as the Earl of Ormond, establishes notability. She was also the mother of three subsequent Earls of Ormond. Wikipedia has articles of far less important people.--jeanne (talk) 14:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

In Lord Dunboyne's paper which he published 1997, he explains that the 12th Earl of Ormond was created Marquess of Ormonde in 1642. The patent contained a final "E" which the family retained. Here is the URL:[1] --jeanne (talk) 14:50, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Notability is not inherited. She may be a relative of important people; that doesn't make her inherently notable. Concerning the spelling, I remain unconvinced. For example, ThePeerage.com also uses the "Ormonde" spelling for the early Earls. I'll try to dig up a hardcopy of the Complete Peerage.

On a completely unrelated note, I'd ask you to be a little more thorough with your links, both internal and external. For example, it wasn't really useful to have all the various James Butlers link to the same disambiguation page when we have articles on the individuals. The same goes for the Earl of Ormond page, which is a redirect to a disambiguation page, with the correct target being Earl of Ormonde (Irish) (which might need a move if the earldom is indeed the Earldom of Ormond). Your external links are often broken due to typos; for example the link to Lord Dunboyne's paper alone contains two. Huon (talk) 15:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I confess I've had problems linking the different James Butlers to the correct article. External links drive me mad. Sorry, but I can never get the externals to work. As for notability, I see someone has already categorised the page with an Irish peer stub. Wikipedia has a dearth of articles on Irish noblewomen and peeresses, and I am setting about trying to rectify the matter. With regards to the spelling of Ormond, I prefer the name without an "E" , however, if it makes it easier for readers to identify the subject, by all means go ahead and change the spelling to Ormonde. I am not fussy or polemical over spellings.--jeanne (talk) 15:19, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I have gone through all of my biograpies on Anne Boleyn, whose grandmother was Margaret Butler, daughter of the Earl of Ormond.They all show Ormond spelled ORMONDE. Ok, I guess that pretty much clinches it. As I have said, I don't mind being in the wrong. It's accuracy that's important. It appears as if Ormond was the old spelling that has since been uniformly repaced with Ormonde. Same as Anne Boleyn, whose family originally spelled their name "Bullen". --jeanne (talk) 15:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion this could use more detail but the lady is notable. Can you get more detail on her from melosina at hotmail.com Kittybrewster ☎ 18:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion, Kitty, but one has to be a member of the Butler Society to read their documents.--jeanne (talk) 05:25, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I have located a death date for her as well as leases issued by her shortly before her death which prove that she was a lady of education and property in her own right.--jeanne (talk) 05:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm pleased you agree with Anne's notability. She was not only the Countess of Ormond but she is an important dynastic link in the Butler family. She was the great-great-grandmother of Anne Boleyn. Many people access Wikipedia for historical research and I must say, most articles on noblemen fail to mention the wives names completely! For far too long, women and their roles in history have been overlooked. I am creating stubs and articles on (mainly) medieval women to remedy this dearth. Thank you again, Kitty.--jeanne (talk) 08:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I rather agree with Huon, at least insofar as nothing in the article at present shows notability. The title spelling should be verified by reference to one of the decent peerage books. AllsoulsDay (talk) 15:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I've explained her notabilty. She was an important Irish peers wife, as well as dynast. Wikipedia exists to provide information. If someone were researching the Butler family they would find the article on Anne Welles which also gives her family details, such as grandparents, siblings, etc. Some articles on noblemen don't bother giving the mother's or wives' names as if babies were born sans female! If the Countess of an important peer isn't notable, then why does Wikipedia have articles on Queens or royal mistresses. After all, the former were used for breeding whilst the latter for pleasure. The spelling of Ormond/Ormonde is being discussed on the Ormonde name talk page.--jeanne (talk) 17:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

No you haven't explained her notability. Have you read the wiki guidance? See Wikipedia:BIO - Being the wife/mother/child etc is not notability - see Wikipedia:NOTINHERITED. Wiki exists to provide meaningful information not any information. She needs to meet wiki standards on her own. I can't see anything in the present article to show she has. Queen's generally have a considerable independent coverage and so do those small number of famous mistresses - if they don't they need it added or they should be deleted or incorporated into another article. Your sourcing is not helpful - 'Butler family History' is that a book or simply oral history Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources. None of the present sources looks to be specifically about her but simply references to her in books about other people or things. AllsoulsDay (talk) 12:25, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Melo won't bite your head off. I suggest you perfect this before writing up more. Kittybrewster ☎ 18:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The spelling for Ormond/Ormonde is currently being discussed at Talk: Earl of Ormonde (Irish). Kitty, I sent off an E-Mail to Melosina. Hopefully they'll reply. I think the Ormonde countesses are pretty well covered at Wikipedia now. I shall not be writing any more articles on Butler wives. I have added more info to this Anne Welles page. I think I've explained her notability. I did add that she was the first Countess of Ormonde to live at Kilkenny Castle. Even the tour guides at Kilkenny fail to mention this fact!--jeanne (talk) 06:40, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Allsoulsday, she was a titled peeress, not just some minor sibling or remote cousin. Wikipedia has articles on people whose only notability is that they had sex with some famous rock star L'Wren Scott, Connie Hamzy--jeanne (talk) 12:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

As above you still don't appear to have read the Bio requirements. Being the wife or mother of a peer isn't notability. Peeresses have no automatic notability for being peeresses - except post 1958 where parliamentary peers in their own right gain it via the first-level sub-national political office rule. [As Kitty should well know the proposal for wives to be included failed. Nor does finding other articles - that will no doubt be deleted in due course looking at the lack of any detail in them - constitute an argument. The article has to stand up against consensus policy not against another article. So far you have not attempted to engage with the policy guidance and continue to give reasons that simply won't meet any keep vote criteria. I'm not trying to be hard but if you can't meet wiki Bio all that will happen is the article will be deleted sooner or later. AllsoulsDay (talk) 15:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Sources

There are no sound or concrete sources for this page. These references have no links, pages, or show where they came from. Source 1 simply states: The Complete Peerage. Source 2 is a PUBLIC tree with personal research and no link: Leo van de Pas, Worldroots, The Ancestors of Anne Boleyn. Source 3 is simply: Darryl Lundy, www.thePeerage.com. Source 4: Butler Family History; ??. Source 5: Tudor Place: Butler Family which has no reference at all. Some concrete sources would be nice. -- Lady Meg (talk) 22:53, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

The above citations have all been removed.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:20, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

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