Talk:Ann Coulter/Archive 23

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BLP CAT concerns

The following CATs are a concern per wp:CATDEF, "Category:Opposition to Islam in the United States", "Category:American conspiracy theorists". To use a category on a BLP it needs to be something we could say in wiki voice. The second one is easy as we are dealing with a single conspiracy theory. That is not sufficient to call Coulter a conspiracy theorist in wiki voice and thus is not enough to include the category. The same is true of the Islam tag. It seems her comments, per this article, are primarily related to Islamic terrorism and again, per CATDEF, this must be a central aspect not just one of many. That she is a conservative commentator is a central aspect. Her views on Islam are not. @Grayfell and EricSDA: as recently involved. Springee (talk) 22:03, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

These categories are supported by content in the article. So, if this about BLP, the burden would be on you would first have to explain why this reliably-sourced content, which is already in the article, is either not in fact reliably-sourced or doesn't belong for some other reason. If you want to discuss whether or not these categories are proportionate, do so on their own merits. Source pretty clearly and consistently support this, to to invoke BLP preemptively is either ignoring sources or is using WP:CRYBLP to escalate a relatively minor content issue. Since that would be be tendentious, I will assume you have some specific, good faith reason to challenge this content. If this is indeed strictly about categories, please explain this in a less inflammatory manner. Grayfell (talk) 23:05, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure why this is inflammatory. To be clear, this is specifically about the inclusion of the categories, not the article content. Do any of the sources actually say she is a conspiracy theorist? Same with the other cat (does that cat even have a clear definition?). If no sources say she is, then we certainly cannot in wiki voice. Remember, the standard for a category is at minimum we have to be able to say it in wiki voice (even if we don't specifically say it). Additionally, since this is a BLP contentious claims need consensus to include. This is currently a local, no consensus. Consensus aside these are simply aspects of the person, not a defining characteristic hence why the cats violate BLP. Springee (talk) 23:48, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Absent follow up I've removed the conspiracy theorist CAT as violating CATDEF and NOCON to keep (contentious claim about a BLP subject). I think the same applies to the Islam CAT but most of this discussion was related to the conspiracy CAT. Springee (talk) 19:57, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

The article already states this, per multiple reliable sources: Coulter is an advocate of the white genocide conspiracy theory. Your stated inability to understand why this is inflammatory is also irrelevant. BLP is not served by being over-cautious, and neutrality is harmed when we preemptively exclude content because it might be unflattering. Other than this, I still have not seen anything close to a compelling argument for why this is a BLP issues. Grayfell (talk) 19:20, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, it is trivially easy to find reliable sources which describe Coulter as a conspiracy theorist (which should be obvious to anyone with even a passing familiarity with her work)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/26/pipe-bombs-false-flag-claims-ann-coulter-rush-limbaugh-conspiracy-theories

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2018/06/18/migrant-kids-are-child-actors-ann-coulter-says-on-fox-news-telling-trump-not-to-be-fooled/

etc.

Further, many, many sources will describe something as a conspiracy theory and then mention Coulter as a proponent of it. Any ambiguity here is only superficial. These sources are saying that she is known as a conspiracy theorists as the term is commonly understand. Expecting a juicy pull-quote for every statement is unrealistic, among other problems. Grayfell (talk) 19:40, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Much of what your claim supports the tag isn't in the article and the limited information in the article doesn't satisfy DEFCAT. Per NOCON the tag needs to be removed until there is consensus to include. That some key word searched sources say she promotes a conspiracy theory is not sufficient to call her a conspiracy theorist in wiki voice. Per BLP standards that must be a high bar. Springee (talk) 19:50, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Grayfell I looked over your sources. Neither are sufficient to describe Coulter as a conspiracy theorist in wiki-voice. That is the standard needed to apply a contentious tag to a BLP article. None of your sources say she is a conspiracy theorist. Per CATDEF, "A central concept used in categorizing articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define[1] the subject as having—such as nationality or notable profession (in the case of people)" Sources consistently define Coulter as a pundant/commentator and as a conservative. They do not consistently define her as a conspiracy theorist. In fact I don't think we have a single source that says she is a conspiracy theorist. As such the tag violates CATDEF as well as BLP. Springee (talk) 22:52, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Repeating the claim that this violates BLP does not make it persuasive nor does it make it accurate. As I specifically explained, source do define her as a conspiracy theorist. This includes both existing, already cited sources, and additional sources that can be added with relative ease.

For example: 'Conspiracy theorizing: “From the Haymarket riot to the Unibomber, bombs are a liberal tactic,” she tweeted on Wednesday after CNN offices in Manhattan were evacuated when one of the bombs was found there.' from this Washington Post article This source says she is a conspiracy theorist in direct terms.

Your implication seems to be that we must include a simplistic pull-quote. This is both unrealistic, and frankly, seems legalistic. Sources must define her as a conspiracy theorist, and they absolutely do. They do not have to explicitly say "Coulter is a conspiracy theorist" in exactly those words. This is an encyclopedia, and our job is to summarize sources.

Further, your contention this is a BLP issue is, as I already tried to explain, contradicted by your admission that the sources do support this information. If you want to make the case that this is accurate but fails to raise to the level of CATDEF than it is not NOCON, it is merely a content dispute. Per NOCON, this content was already in the article and therefor you lack consensus for a change to the status quo.

As I said earlier, I am assuming good faith that you have some actual reason to oppose this beyond CRYBLP. So far, your reasoning seems to be that you personally don't agree with the existing summary of sources. This is insufficient. Perhaps a noticeboard would be a better place. Before that, please consider whether or not it is a productive use of your time to remove information which is supported by sources merely on technical grounds. Nothing about this category is an extraordinary claim based on existing sources. I would also advise you to take a look yourself for additional sources if that's your concern. Grayfell (talk) 01:49, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Your claim that it doesn't violate BLP is wrong. To put a tag on the article the information the tag implies must be something we can say in wiki-voice. This hasn't risen to that level. That sources you link do not call her a conspiracy theorist even if they say she is promoting a specific conspiracy. Even if some sources call her a conspiracy theorist, to put such a contentious label on a person it has to be widely used, else it must be attributed which means it isn't sufficient for a tag. Additionally, CATDEF says this must be commonly and consistently. You haven't shown that. I think this needs to go to BLPN. Springee (talk) 02:40, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

"Your claim is wrong" is not a compelling argument. It is something we can say in Wikivoice, because per reliable sources she is a conspiracy theorist. Your (apparent) definition of "conspiracy theorist" is too vague to be workable, and also incompatible with both sources and Wikipedia's own article on conspiracy theories. As countless reliable sources explain, any conspiracy theory that can be proven is not a "conspiracy theory" it's just a conspiracy. Therefore, all conspiracy theories, including the ones promoted/created/spread by Coulter, by definition include plausible deniability. This doesn't mean they are not conspiracy theories, nor does it mean that people who spread them are not conspiracy theorists just because they don't call themselves that particular term. A person who is notable in part for spreading conspiracy theories is a conspiracy theorist. The disputed category is not a subcat of "category:people who promote conspiracy theories" because that would be both unworkably euphemistic, and also condescending to readers. Grayfell (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Which sources say she is a conspiracy theorist? Not which sources imply it or which sources are compatible with such a view. We don't say it in wiki voice in the article. I don't have a definition here and you seem to be engaged in your own research to say what you think the standard should be. I'm saying the article doesn't say she is so we can't use a tag that says she is. If you have sources that say she is, not just she has promoted a, but that she is, then quote them and then show they are sufficient to say she is in wiki voice. Regardless, I've posted at BLPN and we can get some additional views there. Springee (talk) 04:13, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

To say that Coulter is a conspiracy theorist, we'd need it to be the case that reliable sources say that Coulter is a conspiracy theorist – that is, apply the label to her. Contentious labels like these, applied to BLP subjects, are the last place to be inserting your own original research. WP:CATDEF is firm on this matter too, as we'd need it to be the case that reliable sources regularly and consistently apply the label to her, which hasn't been demonstrated here. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 21:07, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

References