Talk:Angel Street, London

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 16:55, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

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• Article history

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• ... that all the original buildings of London's Angel Street have been destroyed by fire, bombing, or demolition? Source: Too many to list - see the article
  • Reviewed: Bewahre uns, Gott

5x expanded by Philafrenzy (talk) and Whispyhistory (talk). Nominated by Philafrenzy (talk) at 12:43, 6 March 2022 (UTC).

• This article is new enough (rather than 5x expanded) and long enough. The hook facts are cited inline, the article is neutral, and I detected no copyright issues. A QPQ has been done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:54, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Article extension

Philafrenzy, thank you for creating and expanding the article, I have a few questions and comments:

• References is it possible to add details of the works digitised by British History Online, i.e. A Dictionary of London (Henry A Harben, 1918) and Old and New London: Volume 2 (Walter Thornbury, 1878)? Do you still prefer forming references manually rather than using templates?
• Angel Alley I have added a sentence about Angel Alley in 1542, do any of the other sources confirm when Angel Alley/Court was first mentioned?
• General Post Office I think that the format of General Post Office building names should agree with the General Post Office, London article, either General Post Office (West) or General Post Office West. Note to myself, GPO London should mention GPO West. TSventon (talk) 23:03, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your questions TSventon:

• References - Yes but it gives you a much more complicated reference so I short cut it. The full source details are at BHO. Yes, manually usually, it's more flexible and remember that the templates only change the wikicode and add a lot of it. Please don't change just for the sake of having a template in the wikicode if it looks the same in read mode.
• Angel Alley - Thanks for finding 1542. Nothing else I have seen goes that far back. It may be that if it was only an alley in 1542, that's when it was created, and only became a street with rebuilding after the fire.
• General Post Office - I understand your point but the names should also match the sources so that the content can be easily verified by the reader. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:16, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

P.S. I should like to know more about King's Head Court which seems to have been an inn but is later referred to as the location of Bentley and Chant, who were dealers or authors in entomology and possibly notable. I haven't had time to look into it properly. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:59, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Philafrenzy

• I think it is useful to include citation details for books, such as title, author and date as well as the website which digitised them, so the reader can see them in the article without clicking on all the links. I know that you can choose a citation style as the creator of the article and was not planning to change to citation templates without your agreement.
• Angel Alley and its neighbours were probably mentioned in 1542 because the College of St. Martin's Le Grand was dissolved in that year according to the Victoria County History, see here. Did you see the "declaration of William Boston, abbot of Westminster, after St.-Martin's-le-Grand had been transferred by Henry VII to that foundation" on pages 25-29 of Herbert? The date was 1534, acccording to the DNB. It is also in Stow 1633 here and Strype here and mentions Angel Alley five times. The alley may have been shorter than the current street as the declaration mentions a wall between St. Martin's Le Grand and Greyfriars, London to its west. I agree that Angel Alley probably became a street with rebuilding after the fire, but can't prove it.
• I had a look at the sources for GPO West in the article and they use GPO West, General Post Office West, General Post Office (West) or none of them, so I think that this article could use any of them without confusing the reader needlessly.
• On King's Head Court and Angel Alley, the Journal of the British Archaeological Association, 1931, Page 330, via Google Books, says "By 1542 there were already St. John's Alley (= Baptist Alley), Cocke Alley, Cristofer Alley, Fowerdoves Alley, Blands Alley (probably the same as King's Head Court): and Angell Alley." with a footnote "In 1536 the Earl of Northumberland was renting the houses in Bland's Court, so it must have been in the same direction as Angel Alley, i.e., where Ogilby shows King's Head Court. Bland's Alley is found as early as 1525 (L. and P., IV, (i), 1082)." There is more on Bland and a map here. TSventon (talk) 23:51, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Good research. I have no objection to the addition of the original sources in the BHO references. I think it's clear what happened here, that it was originally an alley, probably fairly short ending at the inn, and after the fire became more significant and extended to the west, perhaps also because some legal obstacles or the need to block it had fallen away with time. The article about sanctuary is interesting and the fact that the pattern of streets and alleys persisted so long. I think we could work in Bland by adding that Bland's Alley joined Angel Street on the south side within the liberty/sanctuary. Philafrenzy (talk) 10:02, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Philafrenzy my reconstruction (original research) is that the alley was orginally short, ending at the boundary wall with Greyfriars, which was approximately on the same line as the boundary of the Liberty of St Martin's marked on Roque's map. Roque's Angel Inn is outside the liberty, so it is probably post reformation. When Greyfriars and St Martin's were secularised, the alley may have been extended. After the fire, Angel alley was rebuilt as a street, while its neighbours remained as courts and alleys until they were included in the site of General Post Office (West). I will try to add a mention of Bland's Alley to the article in due course, or you are welcome to if you don't want to wait for me to find time.

By the way, I am not sure what period Strype's mention of "Angel Alley, pretty good" relates to, as he is using Stow and previous attempts to update Stow's survey, as noted here. TSventon (talk) 14:51, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

I think we are in agreement. I don't see it in Stow, although I haven't checked all the editions. Incidentally, I see at Angel that it "was such an iconic coin that many English pubs were named after it". Uncited but a possible source for the inn and therefore the street. Philafrenzy (talk) 21:06, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

P.S. I also see that The Angel, Islington says it was thus named because it had an angel on the sign, which I guess it might once have had, but knowing how pub signs change, that may not be the original source of the name. It's also sourced to a low quality source about Monopoly names. Philafrenzy (talk) 21:11, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Further notes to myself, check London survey'd, or, An explanation of the large map of London (John Ogilby and William Morgan, 1677), which might have relevant information and is available in City of Westminster Libraries. Grant of Angell Alley in 1542 is here. TSventon (talk) 10:26, 26 March 2022 (UTC)