Talk:Albanian Orthodox Church/Archive 1

Archive 1

Missiologist?

Archbishop Anastasios was the greatest Orthodox missiologist of his time...

Does anyone know if this is a real word? I for one,have never heard it before and I couldn't find it in either of the two dictionaries i searched.I think it must be some sort of vandalism but i thought i'd ask first...--Padem 22:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Language

Also the use of the (Greek) language in the rituals has been seen as a threat to Albanian ethnic identity by Albanian nationalists.

The above part of the text is either a hardline Greek nationalistic statement, or some misunderstanding. There is a tradition of many centuries that Christian Orthodox Churches use the language of the local people. For example the Russian Orthodox Church uses Russian language, the Serbian Orthodox Church uses Serbian languages, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church uses Bulgarian language, etc. So the most natural thing is that all Albanians would want to have the service in Albanian. People that want such natural and self understanding things shall not be called nationalists. I cannot imagine how Orthodox Christians in Russia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Armenia, etc. would like to listen to Greek language instead to their own, even in one single church. Should we call them nationalists too? SS

I am afraid you are jumping to the wrong conclusions. Greek is only used during worship in Albania, in places where the local church membership is comprised predominantly by ethnic Greeks (there are many such cities and villages in the south of Albania). And even then, the greek language is not used on its own but in conjunction with Albanian. But there exist some ethnic Albanian hardliners who object even to this! Perhaps the article should be reworded to explain this situation better. Contributor175 15:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it definitely needs to be reworded, since most parishes in Albania do not use Greek in their services, but use Albanian. It might have been a problem before the Second World War, but it has not been an obstacle to the revival of the church. A very few parishes in the south, near the Greek border, use Greek, and one or two use Aromanian (Vlach), but most use Albanian. Mëshiro o Zot! SteveH 14:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I have edited the article and added some new material. It still needs a lot of work, however. I will try to persuade Fr Luke Veronis, who was a missionary in Albania for many years, to take a look at it. SteveH 15:08, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

• The above is nonsense. "There is a tradition of many centuries that Christian Orthodox Churches use the language of the local people", LOL. The Arab Orthodox Churches such as the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch use and always have used Greek in their worship (although I think that in recent years some Arabic has been introduced into the liturgy). You also mention Russia, Serbia and Bulgaria. Well, I bet it'll come to no surprise to you that they don't use the vernacular either but use Church Slavonic which is incomprehensible to modern Slavs.--Ploutarchos 07:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Church of Saranda

Sorry but Saranda dows not infact have a Greek majority:

Here is a recent map of the ethnicities of Albania from T.J. Winnifrith book 'BadLands-Borderlands: A history of southern Albania/Northern Epirus

[[Image:Example.jpg]http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3426/terminal177vw6.jpg]

Of this issue, journalist for the ShqiptareOrthodox/AlbanianOrthodox Foti Cici writes in his article Gjuha dhe simbolet/Language and Symbolism:

“ shqiptarët ortodoksë të Sarandës, të cilët janë të detyruar të ndjekin shërbesat në greqishte, në një kishë madhështore të ndërtuar me investimet e Bankës së Greqisë. Shumë prej shqiptarëve janë larguar nga kisha, si e vetmja formë reagimi ndaj situatës së sotme ndërkonfliktuale. ”

translation:

“ The Albanian Orthodox of Saranda, of which are forced to follow liturgy in Greek, of a cathedral built by the investment of the Bank of Greece. Many of the Albanians have distanced themselves from this church, the only form of settlement to situation under conflict today. ”

This article is the source for the comment that in Saranda, liturgy in Albanian is not allowed in the main church of the city. Not in the city itself, just in that particular church. Which happens to be the biggest one in the city.

I apologize for the awkwardness of the post, I have not yet adjusted to wiki.

Tpilkati 22:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, that church was paid for by Greeks in Greece for the Greek minority in Albania and they are allowing the Albanians to use and hear the liturgy in the same way their ancestors have done for centuries (in Greek language). Beggars can't be choosers, if Albanian nationalists (most of whom are not even Orthodox) want to have their own language in every church church, they should pay for them themselves.--

Beggars cant be choosers ???? The beggars are the very small greek community in Saranda. Ploutarchos 07:08, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

or they should just close it. if they want to play games, so be it.

need more pics

Please,anyone, upload some pictures so we can use them on here.Thank you.--Taulant23 (talk) 11:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Numbers

What is the real number of Orthodox Christians in Albania now, given the fact that abb half of this community emigrated after 1990? Can anyone supply some data about that? Thank you.

All religions migrated equally. Are you hinting that Albanian Orthodox = Greek? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.151.83.225 (talk) 20:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Unreferenced paragraph - to be changed or removed

Archbishop Anastasios insisted from the start that the church that was to be revived would be an Albanian Church, but has greatly increased Greek influence in the church...

In this paragraph, the intention of the Archbishop Anastasios for reviving an Albanian church is questioned, which seems to be in contradiction to the reality, for example to the fact that he established a Synod of Albanian bishops. Unless references are added to this paragraph, it should be removed or modified adequately. Kpant (talk) 23:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Another thing which seems tendentious is this sentence Liturgical books and other literature were produced in the Albanian language between between 1910 and the 1940s. There are very few Albanian publications after his enthronement, while the Orthodox Albanians continue to use the New Testament published by the British & Foreign Bible Society in 1879. Not only the source of information is unknown, but the presentation itself leaves the impression that the church was doing better before the coming of Anastasios. Which is ridiculous - as before his coming there was practically no church life. Kpant (talk) 18:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Date of Autocephaly

This article is not correct; the Albanian Orthodox Autocephalous Church was established in 1922, not in 1937. It might have been recognized in 1937 but that doesn't mean that is when it was founded (sort of like saying that the US was founded when the British recognized it!).

 Fixed and referenced user:sulmues--Sulmues 16:32, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

History

I'd like to thank alexikoua for his nice edits. Made some changes to improve the article:

1. Islam entered in Albania after the Turkish invasion. 2. The majority of muslims has been achieved only in the XIXth century after the Tanzimat reforms. 3. Since St. Paul preached in Durres, Christianity started already in the 1st century, not in the IVth: in the IVth century it became official.

Hope this clarifies my changes. sulmues (talk:sulmues)--Sulmues 16:25, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Suggested move

User:Taulant23 has suggested moving this page to Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania. Any objections? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the move was pointless. "Albanian Orthodox Church" is shorter, much more common (in Google results at least), and matches Bulgarian Orthodox Church, Polish Orthodox Church, Romanian Orthodox Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Serbian Orthodox Church... I understand that nevertheless the current title may be the full official name and since I'm unaware of any possible POV connotations either title could possibly have (power struggle between Orthodox Christianity and Islam for Albanian national religion status maybe?), I'd suggest moving it back.--Dexippus (talk) 15:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Under WP:NAME, the article name should reflect the most widely used english version, not the most "correct" name. A google test reveals 13,000 hits for the old name against 417 for the new one. I agree it should be reverted back, however it will need more of a consensus and admin assistance. AndrewRT(Talk) 21:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

20 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.76.36 (talk) 04:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I can see both of you points (both Taulant's and AndrewRT's), and I tend to  Disagree for the merge for another reason other than Andrew's: Orthodoxy in Albania is not limited to the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania. There is an Orthodox Church of Albania separate from the main one and resides in Elbasan (priest Marku), this is still not reflected in Wikipedia. This version can be as it is just has to point more consistently to the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania and possibly to the "alternative" church of Elbasan. sulmues User talk:sulmues --Sulmues 17:29, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Who appointed him

Is the Church is Autocephalous how come someone else--a Greek no less--appointed a Greek? Is this is mistake or they appointed from outside?

See history: It was the Albanian Government that approved, i.e. Berisha.sulmues talk--Sulmues 17:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Picture of the Worcester church

I don't want to make this move myself, but I believe it's wrong to keep the Worcester church picture in the article because that parish pertains to the Orthodox Church of America, not to the Orthodox CHurch of Albania therefore has nothingt to do with the article. sulmues (talk) 16:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Since no one cared, I got bold and removed the image. The church of Worcester, MA is part of the Orthodox Church of America, not Orthodox Church of Albania.sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 16:02, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Name of the bishop of Gjirokastër

The question of the proper name to use for the bishop of Gjirokastër has arisen. sulmues points to Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Public_figures as a standard. The only web based, non-Wikipedia related reference to the man in the English language that I have found is on YouTube, "Orthodox Autoc. Church of Alb", which uses "Demetrious Sinaiti". It turns out that Δημήτριος is his church name (not birth name), and that he is known as "Demetrious of Sinai" or "Demetrios of Sinai", ref: "Συμφωνία για Πρωτόκολλο Συνεργασίας των Πανεπιστημίων Ιωαννίνων" and "Μητροπολίτης Αργυροκάστρου ο Δημήτριος". As Greek is the official language of the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania, it seems appropriate to use that form rather than the translation into Albanian. He is called "of Sinai", since that is the diocese from which he came in 1991 when he went to Gjirokastër. Μάλιστα η συζήτηση επεκτάθηκε και ο Επίσκοπος, απαντώντας σε σχετικές ερωτήσεις, έδωσε απαντήσεις σε θέματα που αφορούν στη Μονή Σινά, από την οποία προέρχεται και όπου ανήκε πριν εκλεγεί Μητροπολίτης Αργυροκάστρου. ref: "Συμφωνία για Πρωτόκολλο Συνεργασίας των Πανεπιστημίων Ιωαννίνων". Use Google translate for a close approximation. --Bejnar (talk) 04:10, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Greek is not the official language of the Orthodox Church of Albania, where did you get that? ----_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 12:28, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

The official site of this church says that his name is Demetrious. I believe that's enough. Moreover someone that was born out of Albanian (like him) doesn't mean that his name has to change by entering this country...Alexikoua (talk) 14:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

So was he born in Greece? Did you mean that he was born out of Albania? --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 14:25, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to merge Orthodoxy in Albania to this article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge Orthodoxy in Albania into Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania. -- Uncle Dick (talk) 22:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

---

The article of the Church should be the main article. Orthodoxy in Albania seems to be oriented more on the history, but in anyway would best fit here. Also duplication and inconsistencies of information would be reduced, and hopefully, the joint of efforts would bring higher quality to the article, which is necessary since both articles currently are marked as unreferenced.

Eventually, some parts of the Orthodoxy in Albania would be appropriate for Religion in Albania. Kpant (talk) 22:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

• Support: Both articles are mainly dealing with Orthodox in Albania after 1921 (after the creation of the Albanian state), I see no reason keeping 2 articles with the same content.Alexikoua (talk) 22:42, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose: Orthodoxy in Albania should refer both to this church (Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania, and also to the split branch of it in Elbasan with Nikolle Marku as its biship (see [1]), [2], and Nikollë Marku). --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 13:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

• Support. These two articles are essentially duplicates, and there is no evidence that Orthodoxy exists in Albania in any significant form outside of the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania. Uncle Dick (talk) 22:21, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

File:Nativity of Christ Orthodox Cathedral, Shkodra.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Question regarding statement: "The Orthodox people of Albania were members of the Archbishopric of Ohrid"

According to this edit (and a similar edit on another page), the statement is made that Orthodox Albanians (presumably all) were part of the Archbishopric of Ohrid. The quoted reference from Schmitt says: "The Orthodox Albanians ...religiously ... were members of the church that was officially recognized by the Ottoman state.... The Archbishopric of Ohrid." However, when I searched the reference in Schmitt's book Religion und Kultur im albanischsprachigen Südosteuropa, I could not find a basis for this reference. When I typed in archbishopric of ohrid orthodox albanians as search terms, this is what I got from p. 25 which is what is cited here: Moreover, the Archbishopric of Ohrid, to which all Orthodox Albanian cities belonged to ecclesiastically [...] ([3]) Am I wrong to assume that the source was misquoted or did the page actually mention the term Orthodox Albanians above or below the section books.google shows? Or are we assuming that all Orthodox Albanians lived in cities?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 04:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I apologize for forgetting to answer your question: "Am I wrong to assume that the source was misquoted or did the page actually mention the term Orthodox Albanians above or below the section books.google shows?" Yes, you are wrong to assume that the source was misquoted because the the section books.google shows actually mention the term "Orthodox Albanians".--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:20, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

The whole page 25 is available online. Because of copyright issue it is not allowed to present the whole sections of the text from sources. Please read a paragraph which explains that "Archbishopric of Ohrid with its ecclesiastical territory ..... encompasing Serbian, Macedonian, Greek and Albanian lands ... was ... recognized officially by the Ottomans". Then read the quoted text. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:25, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what Nero's issue is with these statements. The conceptual difference between "Albanians" and "Albanian cities"? Well, it factually boils down to pretty much the same thing. Of course, nothing in the sources suggests that church organization in the countryside would have differed from that in the cities. However, I do think the statement about people being "members of the Archbishopric" is poorly worded. Conceptually, people aren't supposed to be "members" of archbishoprics. Archbishoprics have ecclesiastical jurisdiction over other parts of church organization, such as bishoprics and parishes. In this sense, the jurisdiction of Ohrid would have covered all of the orthodox church in the Albanian lands. That's what the source says, and that's what the article was trying to say. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:35, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Schmitt makes distinctions between urban areas and non-urban, highland areas in his book on Skanderbeg ([4]) although that's only one point. There were also many (35-40 thousand [5]) Albanians (most of them of the Byzantine rite even today) living in Italy and AFAIK, the Archbishopric did not have any churches in Italy. Anyway, I realize that I'm moving into OR territory so I will not expand too much. The main reason I asked was because I have limited access to the page in question (Page 25 is not part of this book review) and what I found did not seem to correspond with what was quoted. If it is possible, I would ask for a rewording of the sentence to make clear that the Albanian lands came under the jurisdiction of the Archbishopric along with Ottoman conquest (which is what seems to be reported), instead of saying that the Orthodox Albanians were members of that Archbishopric. Also, from what I can see, the page in question is part of Dritan Egro's dissertation thesis for Bilkent Univeristy ([6] [7]) and he should be appropriately cited.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 06:08, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

The source says "The Orthodox Albanians ...religiously ... were members of the church that was officially recognized by the Ottoman state." There is an institution of Church membership. This term is extensively used on wikipedia. There are lot of works about church membership (817,000 Google Book Search hits. I think we should stick to the source because there is obviously nothing wrong with church membership expression.

If you read rest of the text on the page 26 you will better understand the reason for connecting Ohrid Archbishopric with Orthodox people from Albania, not with the land or churches. "The Archbishopric also had a task of collecting the taxes from Orthodox Albanians.." --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:04, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Just because they were collecting taxes does not mean that they were members of that Archbishopric. The Catholic Albanians in Kosovo had to pay taxes to the Serbian Patriarch in the 17th century [8] but that doesn't mean they were members of the Patriarchate. The membership you speak of is a modern concept whereas more contemporary concepts talk of the faithful as a "flock" led by the priests, bishops, etc. (the Catholic bishop of Nikopol (whose flock, in Bulgaria, was also at risk) [9]) instead of members. It does not seem right that an ordinary person is a member of an Archbishopric, although he can be a member of a church. Also, as far as I can tell, the Theopedia article deals with church membership mainly in an Evangelical sense. Anyway, the change I'm asking for is not major and Fut.Perf also mentioned potential problems with saying that individuals were members of an Archbishopric. Also, from what I can tell, pg.25 says Albanian cities were ecclesiastic members of the Archbishopric. Of course, I only have limited acces to pg. 25, so if you don't mind, could you provide the sentence where it says "Orthodox Albanians" in Dritan Egro's work on pg. 25?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 02:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Church membership affiliates an individual believer with a specific local congregation. I explained that there is no problem with church membership which is exactly the expression the source uses. The Church membership if not a modern concept. It is exactly the opposite, there is a general collapse of the idea of church membership in modern times. Many modern, independent churches reject the idea of membership, believing it to be an unnecessary.

Can you please clarify what is exactly a minor change you are asking?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:40, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

There is no such concept as "membership" in a local congregation. You become a "member" of the Church as a whole, by virtue of being baptized. The only church an individual in that time and place would have been formally a "member" of was "the Orthodox Church", period. Beyond that, the only regional structuring is the one within church organization, i.e. affiliation with a hierarchy of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, but the individual faithful is not part of that. But why are we even having this whole stupid discussion? At a certain time period, the Orthodox church in what is now Albania was affiliated with the jurisdiction of Ohrid. The source, as far as I remember, seemed to imply there had been a somewhat different arrangement at some earlier time. So what? Why is this piece of trivia even of interest? Let alone why are we debating over what precise terms to express it with? This whole debate is just a huge silly tangle of red herrings all round. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

2011 Census and reactions

This section of the article seems to be very problematic.I suggest it should be cleaned up and I will proceed myself if there are no problems Vargmali (talk) 18:01, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I just did a fair amount of work on it... what do you think? I think it still has a few problems, but meh. What problems do you see?--Yalens (talk) 05:05, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Countrywide vs regional

The last changes from Alexikoua do not make any sense, neither are they supported from the reference which follows. Any non-Albanian language is available for liturgy in any place where there is a minority, on their request, regardless of the fact if they are officially recognized or not. So, there is no such concept as "Macedonian language is allowed regionally", but "Greek countrywide". Greek is used where there is Greek minority. There is no "countrywide" status of the Greek language inside the OACA.

Actually this edit is quite clear on the use of both Albanian and Greek in liturgy coutrywide, as the specific inline citation supports. To be more precise the specific quote states: Except for the liturgy for the officially recognized Greek minority areas and the Himara area, where the liturgy is celebrated only in Greek, Christian communities hold services partly in Albanian and partly in Greek. I wonder what's difficult on this one & in fact a short visit in any Orthodox church will make someone realise that part of the liturgy is in Greek language too. By the way the same source states that Greek is exclusively used in the so-called minority zone in contrast to the rest of the country where liturgy is bilingual.Alexikoua (talk) 18:53, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

You are in WP:COATRACK here. There is no such thing as "in contrast to the rest of the country where liturgy is bilingual.". Read the statute of the church.Mondiad (talk) 19:39, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

The language used in liturgy has been target too many discussion and the OACA has made it clear that the only nationwide language is Albanian. You are trying to misinterpret the source, and skip the statute of OACA which is very clear.

Use some Google Translate: Imzot Joan Pelushi: Në kishat ortodokse mesha mbahet në gjuhën shqipe.Mondiad (talk) 19:46, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Read the statute [10], Article 7, page 2: 'The Official language of OACA is Albanian. The Orthodox of other languages can use in their divine worship their traditional worshiping language, with the condition that the [other language] text have been approved by the Holy Synod. Mondiad (talk) 19:52, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

As you can see, this is for everyone, even Chinese if there are any. They can request the liturgy in Chinese, which can be held as soon as OACA vouches the liturgy text in Chinese. Mondiad (talk) 19:54, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Obvisously the definition of "official language" doesn't exclude other languages in liturgy countrywide in all churches of the OACA, as it is the case of Greek here. By the way the official statute of the OACA is published in Koine Greek too by the same authority [[11]]) as almost all official documents of the Archibishopric of Tirana. Thus, if wou believe that this reference [[12]] spreads nonsense that's not for me to judge.Alexikoua (talk) 13:22, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

The statute is very clear, don't spin it anymore. All the languages can be used countrywide, not only Greek, based on the conditions named in the statute. Second, even if they are not Greek or Chinese, as long as they are used to have the liturgy in that language they can request it. The statute is very clear and is not spreading any nonsense. You had that reference listed there and tried to twist to make Greek and official language of OACA countrywide same as Albanian, Macedonian as local only. Official language is only one. All other language can be used everywhere nationwide as long as the two criteria are met: Population is used to have the liturgy in a certain non-Albanian language, and the texts are pre-approved. Mondiad (talk) 13:52, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Because the statute is translated in Greek, does not make Greek an official language. Mondiad (talk) 13:54, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

The fact that Greek is used together with Albanian in liturgy in all Orthodox churches in the country is well cited and it's not contradicting the claim about the official status of Albanian. I still wait for a decent argument against the bilingual character of the liturgy. By the way OACA isn't the only religious authority where liturgy is bilingual.Alexikoua (talk) 15:20, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I checked the Mario Katic source and the whole paragraph relating to that states (p.140):

"In spite of the formation of the Albanian Autocephalous (autonomous) Church in 1922 and its recognition by the Patriarchate in 1937, there have been very few subsequent translations of religious literature (see Winnifnth 2002: 135). There is an Albanian translation of the New Testament, used in Greek minority areas and all other areas that managed to hold onto Christianity under Ottoman rule and the threat of Islamization. Except for the officially recognized Greek minority areas and the Himara area, where the liturgy is celebrated only in Greek. Christian communities hold services partly in Albanian and partly in Greek."

Katic is pointing to a lack of Orthodox Albanian literature here with compensation being made by religious communities also making use of Greek as well. I am also concerned with the author's use of the word "threat" describing the complex religious conversion to or embrace of Islam that happened amongst Albanians and thus about the author being objective and unbiased.Resnjari (talk) 07:16, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Nitisiakos also gives a example of why Albanian and Greek are used in church services amongst Orthodox Albanians:

Nitisiakos. On the border. 2010. pp. 161-162. [13] “Inside the church there are a few people, mainly women and children. At the chanter-stand Hristos from Kosinë and two girls of the same age are chanting. I detect the same awkwardness as always when I happen to attend a liturgy in Albania. While the young chanters are doing fine, playing their role with considerable ease, the rest of the congregation look as if they have adjusted neither to the principles nor of the practices of partaking in the ritual. The priest himself puts special effort to officiate properly; however, he is betrayed by the lack of both collective tradition and personal experience. Also evident is the imitation of Greek ways and the strain to adjust certain things to the Albanian language. We should not forget that the establishment of Albanian as the language of the church service occurred only after many difficulties and struggles of the Albanian orthodox, and only at the turn of the 20th century, which means it has not lasted more than half a century, since Hoxha imposed atheism, forbade the practice of religious tasks, and shut down the temples altogether. Children also partake in the service; it seems that most of them are children living in Greece who have come to spend the summer holidays in their homeland. They stand apart both because of their dress and their manners. They also seem quite used to the formalities of worship and their general comportment reveals considerable ease, which differentiates them from the rest of the congregation. The presence of children like these, who live with their parents in Greece, is very strong in both the cities and the villages. It is very common to hear children playing and speaking in Greek. In fact, as soon as they realise we are Greeks they rush to greet us and talk to us, their joy evident for doing so. Through these kids, as well as through the migrants who are here for various reasons, the presence of Greece is strongly felt.”

Migration and part of the Orthodox clergy not being fully adjusted to the ways of ritual and practice of it. In conjunction with the Katic source which states that not much material in Albanian is out there regarding the Orthodox church. Things must be kept in mind when discussing the use of Greek outside the minority zones and Himara region.Resnjari (talk) 08:27, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

The original source that claimed Greek language as official nationwide was an interpretation, a personal point of view, based on what author might have seen. Alexikoua is trying to do an interpretation over the interpretation. While the statute is clear and gives linguistic freedom to all minorities equally, regardless of their official recognition status.

Nitisiakos, without judging him as NPV or not, is talking about children living in Greece who have come to spend the summer holidays in their homeland. To derive the language of OACA out of this sentence and ignore the OACA statute is far from serious.Mondiad (talk) 14:55, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

I was referring to the use of Greek in certain situations. Because the way Alexikoua was presenting it using the Katic source was that Greek is used by all Orthodox people in Albania for liturgy. Whereas Nitisakos points to the varied nature of use and often being based upon context and situation of the proficiency of the priest etc etc). I do agree that the church's statute should be the primary point of reference when citing the infobox about the parameters of countrywide linguistic use, as not even Greek sources contradict that (As the church has Greeks in its hierarchy).Resnjari (talk) 15:22, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

To sum up, Nitsiakos confirms Katic that Greek is used in liturgy outside the so-called zone, which for an unexplained reason Mondiad is eager to remove. This is further supported by the fact that translations of religious texts to Albanian are very limited, inevitably essential parts in liturgy are still in Greek. The varied use of Greek is another interesting fact which further reiforces the above fact.Alexikoua (talk) 15:38, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Cautiously it does due to prolonged and often reoccurring limitations of the Orthodox church in Albania and relience on Greece for funding, priests, religious texts etc. After all the church these days is using the word "Orthodhoks" as opposed to the native Albanian form of ortodoks and it has a Greek hierarchy. Very complicated for Orthodox Albanians. In the Infobox, only the church statute should be there regarding linguistic use. Within the article however, a mention about more widespread church liturgy in Greek should be mentioned as per the sources. The infobox only discusses the technical parts of the church, not the reasons for this or that, otherwise it may be interpreted as POV pushing. So in sum within the article, some kind of mention is required and i also too will make a few additions as well that i have had for some time in mind. First you though.Resnjari (talk) 16:10, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Article lost its focus - Religious demographics should be moved.

The User:Resnjari has added alot of content about the religious demography in Albania to the article of the Orthodox Church of Albania, but I am afraid this does not belong here. Information that shows the historical changes and shifts in numbers of the religious communities in Albania, such as:

"During the late eighteenth century Orthodox Albanians converted in large numbers to Islam due overwhelmingly to the Russo-Turkish wars of the period and events like the Russian instigated Orlov revolt (1770) that made the Ottomans view the Orthodox population as allies of Russia."

and

"In the early 16th century the Albanian cites of Gjirokastër, Kaninë, Delvinë, Vlorë, Korçë, Këlcyrë, Përmet and Berat were still Christian and by the late 16th century Vlorë, Përmet and Himarë were still Christian, while Gjirokastër increasingly became Muslim.[19][21] Conversion to Islam in cities overall within Albania was slow during the 16th century as around only 38% of the urban population had become Muslim."

and even:

"Central Albania, such as the Durrës area had by end of the 16th century become mainly Muslim.[21] Consisting of plains and being an in between area of northern and southern Albania, central Albania was a hub on the old Via Egnatia road that linked commercial, cultural and transport connections which were subject to direct Ottoman administrative control and religious Muslim influence.[25][26] The conversion to Islam of most of central Albania has thus been attributed in large part to the role its geography played in the socio-political and economic fortunes of the region."

clearly have nothing to do with the Albanian Orthodox Church itself and should rather be moved to Religious Demography instead. We need keep the article's content as compact as possible and any content about religious demography in it to be as minimal as possible. This article's focus is the Albanian Orthodox Church, but this focus is now lost with the Resnjari's additions to the article. --SILENTRESIDENT 07:20, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I cleaned up most of the content on Ottoman section, to restore focus back to the Church itself. Also changed the title "Orthodoxy during Ottoman Empire" into "Orthodox Church during Ottoman Times", and corrected info about the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate over Ohrid and Ioannina, as the Patriarch was the only recognized leader for all Orthodox Christians in the Ottoman Realm. Here is revision of the cleanup. link

Focus now is more or less back to the Church. Please let me know if there is something that relates to the Church and not to the Religious Demographics and shouldn't have been removed. --SILENTRESIDENT 09:33, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

What's also important here is that this religious body concerns a multi-ethnic population contrary to Islam in Albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 09:36, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

The User:Resnjari has done some excellent and well-sourced contributions, but clearly, they do not fit well here. This makes the expansion of Religious Demography a necessity. Or, if that generates any problems with the article's overall size, then, the creation of a separate Orthodoxy in Albania article instead, given how there is so much content about the history of the Albanian Orthodoxy and its adherents that does not fit well into the Albanian Orthodox Church article.

I propose either 1) moving of the removed content from here to the Religious Demography or 2) the creation of the article Orthodoxy in Albania (although it does not show up as a red link, currently, such an article does not exist yet - that link is only a WP:Redirect to the Orthodox Church of Albania). Moving the content into either one of the two suggested articles, will help keep the article Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania clean of any information not really related to that institution. --SILENTRESIDENT 09:54, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't mind on the demography thing. Yes i do accept that all ethnic groups should be cited like Vlachs, ethnic Macedonians and Orthodox Romani (yes, they do exist in the south) etc. I transferred a section from the Islamization of Albania article due to overlap. There is no Orthodoxy in Albania article though. When i typed Orthodoxy in Albania the link came to here so that's why i placed it all in this article. Kind of see how much stuff can be accumulated first. Just speaking from experience with Islam in Albania. I thought at first there would be little scholarship, and then it turned out to be a lot especially generated over the past few years. Wikipedia allows for a maximium of 10, 000 words for a article. I don't oppose the creation of an Orthodoxy in Albania article though. Is there enough info for it and will most of it overlap ? On Islam a large part of the church's Albanian speaking flock did covert and affected the church a lot and that cannot be ignored with the placement of one sentence. The church is lcoated in Albania, not Greece or some other corner of the Balkans. Its focus is within the geographical limits of Albania. Albanian speaking Orthodox people are the largest portion of the church's congregation today.Resnjari (talk) 11:09, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I restored info on the church. Until such time that a independent Orthodoxy in Albania article appears that content stays. I am curious as to why only content in relation to Kosmas remains, since editors want content to remain on just the emergence of the independent church and also Greek matters while the other stuff gets removed prior to those events remains? If you want a pure article that deals with the emergence of just the independent church, then no Kosmas stuff too. Only content relating to the 19th century which led toward the movement for a independent Orthodox Albanian church. And the other stuff gets catered in a Orthodoxy in Albania article (whenever that [or if it] gets created).Resnjari (talk) 11:17, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

"I restored info on the church. Until such time that a independent Orthodoxy in Albania article appears that content stays." Resnjari, if you are not in the mood of creating the new article Orthodoxy in Albania, then move it to Religious Demography. Simple. Reverting the cleanup on the grounds that the content must stay on the wrong article "just because the appropriate article does not exist" is an extremely poor argument of your part. The Catholic Church: [14] and the conversions between populaces: [15] have nothing to do with this article and yet you restored them! Now the article is again a mess like before. As for Kosmas, really do you need an explanation on why notable Church people, such as Saints and Bishops, are not removed from the article? Really??? --SILENTRESIDENT 12:01, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Resnjari, please stop with these WP:TENDENTIOUS edits. The content which you are trying to add, does not belong here. You should either move it to Religion in Albania#Religious Demography or create now the new Orthodoxy in Albania article instead of ramming it into the Church article. --SILENTRESIDENT 12:11, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Clean up, Nope. This article contains info on the history of the church. The conversion of the north to Cathcolism is very relevant. It explains also why there is hardly any Orthodox up north beyond Elbasan today. Again the article is about Albania and also the history of the church. Yeah, i really 'do need an explanation' about what makes people like Kosmas notable. Oh wait he was preaching because of the large conversion process to Islam. Funny how that context gets removed and condensed into one sentence by you. The article is about the church in Alvania, not Hellas. As for disruption, seriously that talk here with me. Look either create a new Orthodoxy in Albania article and we keep the prior 19th century stuff to a minimum or it contains the whole thing. Even with conversions Albanians are still the biggest ethnic group of adherants today. The onus is on you to create it. Its your suggestion/proposal. I aint going to do everyone's work !Resnjari (talk) 12:17, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Remove the Orthodoxy in Albania redirect from here first if your going to create a new article. I don't know how to remove those things or ask an administrator.Resnjari (talk) 12:30, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

It's not my job to go create the articles for you. This is YOUR job since it is YOU who added the content. Insisting on adding this content on ARBMAC-protected articles without consensus, is highly disruptive. Please remove these WP:OFFTOPIC passages as soon as possible. --SILENTRESIDENT 12:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Nope, often its the one who makes the suggestion. I made a suggestion at the Albanian nationalism in Albania article and am currently working on it to follow through. The redirect is called Orthodoxy in Albania and i placed info as such. This article is acting in a dual capacity for both the current church and its past history of Orthodoxy in general in Albania. The content is not "Tendentious". The history of the church is relevant, and by that not only its Greek history, but its Albanian one considering the church is in Albania.Resnjari (talk) 12:56, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Remove the redirect from here to allow for the page bearing the title Orthodoxy in Allbania to be created and do a simple copy and paste.Resnjari (talk) 13:05, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Now you are in the territory of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Don't make it worse for you. Instead of hiding your WP:IDONTLIKEIT behind the classic WP:REDIRECT argument, remove your content from the article asap. I don't care what you will do with it, but you can't keep it here. If you want your work to not be wasted and to be saved but the Demographics of Albania is not good for you, then go there: [16] (Orthodoxy in Albania #no redirect tag) and remove the redirect. Then you can add your content into it.

Like I said, the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania should only keep information relevant to the Albanian institution. An example for this is the article about the Greek institution, the Church of Greece which contains no religious demographics whatsover. Articles about organizations and institutions have nothing to do about topical demographics of their adherents and can not be turned into religious demographics articles, like it or not. --SILENTRESIDENT 13:14, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

The Talk:Orthodoxy_in_Albania does not have any redirects, so it is set and ready to go. You only need add your content on the main article itself, and make a small brief, and you are done. It shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to complete the whole work. If you think your content is not enough, feel free to copy stuff from the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania as a filler, and you are good to go. Over time people may come and add more stuff to it that can't fit in the Church article. --SILENTRESIDENT 13:27, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Ok then. Looks like its copy and paste night. Thanks. :)Resnjari (talk) 13:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

SilentResident, i tried it. Its still bringing me here. How long do these usually things take effect ?Resnjari (talk) 13:32, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I fixed it for you. [17]. --SILENTRESIDENT 13:35, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

SilentResident. ok its all good now.Resnjari (talk) 13:36, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I am very happy there is finally time for the Orthodoxy in Albania to be upgraded to an actual article instead of serving as a mere redirect. Also don't forget to add links from the Autocephalous Church of Albania to the Orthodoxy in Albania and vise verse, so readers can visit the new article and read more about the Orthodoxy in the country, or about the institution. --SILENTRESIDENT 13:39, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

SilentResident, I created it. It will need work on the modern period and i should note on that part it will overlap with this article due to the obvious thing that the histories are intertwined (so they probabaly will read the same on many levels there). I will restore your edits you made to this article, however there will be a few sentences on the conversion process. Albania was once Orthodox in its entirety after all. A reader should be aware of at least what happened as background info.Resnjari (talk) 13:56, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

In the event there are interwined sections, then, keep the same info detailed in the one article and summarized in the other article with a link directing the readers to the page that has more details on the matter. --SILENTRESIDENT 14:27, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Also the following sections:

• Orthodox Church during the Ottoman Period
• Demographics
  • Historical demographics
  • 2011 census and reactions

Should be moved from Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania to Orthodoxy in Albania because they relate less to the current institutions and more to the orthodox religion and the orthodox populaces. Since this is my proposal, you are not obliged to do it yourself. But I could like to hear everyone's opinions first before I move the content. --SILENTRESIDENT 14:38, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

For tonight that is as far as i am going. On moving the Orthodox Church during the Ottoman Period to the Orthodoxy in Albania article there would be no need as the content at that article has the detailed stuff. Adding the bit from here means less info. I think more of a: do we keep it at all for here? If not then the bit about wanting a independent Orthodox church and how things got there should be the starting off point in a historical context. Its kind of how i structured the Islam in Albania article after i did all the splits and stuff. Only two sentences on conversion there. So maybe two to four on context with a wiki link ??? Other imput is good.Resnjari (talk) 14:47, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Yet again all this lunacy is accompanied with the usual autochtony scenario. For future reference when an author states that: "Religious differences also existed before the coming of the Turks. Originally, all Albanians had belonged to the Eastern Orthodox Church" (Stavrianos) this can't be interpreted that Albanians were Orthodox prior to the Schism of 1054 AD. Not only that but there were also not Albanians recorded in history that time [[18]] (see inline reference in Origin_of_the_Albanians#References_to_Albanians_in_the_High_Middle_Ages) .Alexikoua (talk) 21:20, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

You gave me views once before on Albanians being a "social category" even just over a hundred years ago [19], so i know where you stand on things. Please refrain from using your personal views of Albanians in reinterpreting scholarship. Stavrianios notes the following (pp.497-498) [20]: "Religious differences also existed before the coming of the Turks. Originally, all Albanians had belonged to the Eastern Orthodox Church, to which they had been attached at the time of the schism between the church of Rome and that of Constantinople. Then the Ghegs in the North adopted Catholicism, apparently in order to better resist the pressure of Orthodox Serbs. Thus the Albanians were divided between the Catholic and Orthodox churches before the time of the Turkish invasion." Now the schism occurred in 1054 unless you can point to another schism between the churches. Tomorrow i will get my hands on Ramet that will be an additional source on Albanians and Orthodoxy. Unless you have something of substance to produce other than your views or proving that that scholars are somehow flawed (using actual evidence), no need for POV pushing. Thank you.Resnjari (talk) 10:00, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

(ignore trolling) For future reference (as you exactly quoted but offered wrong explanation) "at the time of the schism" can't be interpreted as "prior to that period". To sum up prior to the Schism there were not separate Orthodox and Catholic Churches, there were also not Albanians recorded in this region and that's based on wp:SECONDARY and ACADEMIC.Alexikoua (talk) 12:18, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Trolling ? Stavrianos, a scholar is very clear about this. Please stop placing you own original research claims. Stavrianos (pp.497-498) [21]:Originally, all Albanians had belonged to the Eastern Orthodox Church, to which they had been attached at the time of the schism between the church of Rome and that of Constantinople. What part of this sentence don't you understand ?Resnjari (talk) 12:34, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

It appears you still need to study the specific quote carefully: when it happened "at the time" of the schism this can't be interpreted as a situation "prior to the schism". For future reference 1. the was no official separation of the two churches prior to the schism (schism means separation by the way) 2. the so-called approved pre-11th century existent of ethnic Albanians and other autochthony style arguments is your personal POV.Alexikoua (talk) 14:40, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Ok, will need some Ramet for additional info. Nonetheless the other stuff about before the Turks stuff you where pushing is wrong especially also deleting stuff in relation that the academic source was referring to Albanians. I was not pushing autochthony arguments. During that time there were others peoples in Albania like the Slavs, like in northern Greece all the way to the Peloponnese. There is no purity or autochthony and that counts for all peoples in the Balkans, not just the modern day Alvanoi.Resnjari (talk) 14:52, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

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