Talk:Ahmed Barzani

Biography assessment rating comment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article.--KGV (Talk) 05:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Protected

I've full-protected this page due to the protracted edit-warring, for three days. I'd appreciate if the proponents would discuss their changes here rather than reverting madly back and forth. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Tony, i was not edit warring with him. I was merely reverting his vandalism. I have already engaged in a lengthy discussion with him, to no avail. Just take a look at his talk page. I have repeatedly asked him to provide a first hand source that Barzani was Muslim and then remove it, but instead of doing so, he ignores my suggestion and simply deletes the statement, even though it is credibly sourced. There is nothing more to be discussed here. If the CIA source is uncredible as he claims it is, the onus is on him to prove it. He cannot simply make unsubstantiated claims and remove sourced information. As such, i request you to restore the article as it formerly was and block him for intentionally vandalizing the article. The article has already been vandalized a lot of times in the past few months already. He has repeatedly ignored my warnings and my suggestions, without any consideration. You have to block him. It will be a mockery of the rules otherwise. Joyson Noel (talk) 16:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

My reason for protection in lieu of blocking the IP is that he has, numerous times, pointed out a source - the book that he's stated makes this claim. That suggests there *is* a source, and I'd like to see further discussion as to whether that is a source instead of just reverting him and calling it vandalism. To me, this is a content dispute, and should be dealt with here, rather than through multiple reverts. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:08, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

What about the CIA link? Why should that stay out? Simply because he claims that it is uncredible without providing any proof. It's a credible link through which anyone and cross check and verify the fact that he was a Christian. Also, i did engage in a fruitless discussion with him.

I was very reasonable with him. All i asked him to provide a first hand online account stating that Barzani was Muslim, and even offered to remove the statement myself if he did so. However, he has not actually provided a proper reference that i could check and verify. Instead, he simply keeps deleting the statement and keeps telling me to read a particular book and find it out for myself. Come on! I'm not arguing that this isn't a content dispute, but anyone can see that it's technically, Vandalism.

Now, does he really think that i have that book with me, or even if i did, does he really think that i have the required time to read the book and find it out for myself?

If he is disputing it, then it's upto him to provide me an online reference through which i can verify that he was a Muslim. Otherwise, it will stay. There is nothing more to be discussed here. Any reasonable person will agree with what i have just said.

As such, i request you to reconsider and do what is required. Joyson Noel (talk) 06:54, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand our requirements for references. Books are perfectly acceptable as references - there are probably millions of cites on Wikipedia to books. I've gone to the library to find references for articles because they aren't available online; that's not an issue. If there's a book available that counters the CIA reference, then it should at least be mentioned in the article that there's some debate over whether or not the conversion to Christianity occurred, with references to *both* sources. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:35, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The book itself seems to have been easy enough to find: its page at its publisher's - a major publisher, to boot - and on Google Books. I can't find any mention of Ahmed Barzani by searching the book itself, though, so he may have been discussed on some of the secondary pages - unless the IP is confused about which Barzani is being discussed here. I'd like to hear from the IP, personally, and will leave a note to that end. Tony Fox (arf!) 15:41, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

My Solution

Tony, i apologize if have i failed to make myself clear, but it seems that you've misunderstood my position on this. I never claimed that books are not allowable as references. However, in his case, i asked him to provide an online credible reference (i.e, a first hand account) through which i could cross check and verify that Barzani was a Muslim. This is for one reason. Due to his apparent dishonesty, i do not trust him. If he could so boldly lie that i'm a Christian convert, even when my userpage makes it apparent that i'm not, then what is to stop him from making up offline references to that book with fabricated quotes?

But now that's no longer a problem. I have figured out a solution to this. Even if he provides a reference with fabricated quotes, i can still find out if the quotes he provided are real or not. All i have to do is copy-paste the quotes into google book search. Even if the particular page is unavailable for preview, a part of the quote will still be visible as captions. If it's not there, then it's obviously fabricated.

So, here's my deal. All he has to do now is to provide me a reference as to where in that book is Barzani's religious beliefs mentioned. Let him just write it down here word for word, along with the page number. That shouldn't be a problem if it is there, as he claims it is. Joyson Noel (talk) 17:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Just so you know, i did a little search of the book, "Mustafa Barzani and the Kurdish Liberation Movement" through google search. Even though it's a limited preview, i still tried my level best searching for any hint of Barzani's faith. The book as the name suggests, is a biography of Ahmed Barzani's brother, Mustafa and details the role he played in the Kurdish uprisings in Iraq. My search revealed no mention of his religious beliefs. The closest it comes to giving any hint of his religious belief's is in page 33, but even this is vague. During a conversation he says, "I want to please Allah and satisfy his conscience". Even Arab Christians and Jews use the term "Allah" for god. You could argue that he is a Kurd, but the term Allah is used even by many predominantly Muslim peoples, including the Kurds. So, all this proves is that he was a theist, but does not make his religious orientation clear. However, i don't dismiss the possibility that it could be mentioned in one of those unviewable pages. Joyson Noel (talk) 17:20, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I have asked the IP to come in and discuss specifically where the references come from in the book. It's a matter of the IP actually noticing the messages now. Tony Fox (arf!) 00:50, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

So, how long should i wait for him to respond? Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 11:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Look, give the guy some time, for pete's sake - there's nothing earth-shattering about this situation that requires action NOW NOW NOW. It's protected for another day or so; if we haven't heard from the IP by then, then we can revert and work from there. Okay? Tony Fox (arf!) 15:47, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

lol. Chill, dude! I just wanted to know whether it's OK to revert the edit once the page protection is over, in case he does not respond by then, or should i wait longer for him to respond. That's it. I was not demanding an immediate response. I understand that the situation has been incredibly frustrating for you, and i don't intend to further aggravate you. It's just a question. Relax! Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 18:21, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

If you had to deal with my coworkers you'd be snappish too. =P Tony Fox (arf!) 21:39, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

With no response from the anon editor, I've reverted back to the last cited version. Further reversion and edit-warring will be met with more protection and blocks if necessary. Discuss first, please. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:04, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Sources

Joyson Noel you asked for an online source here is one. As you know most of the studies and books on Ahmed Barzani are in Arabic or Kurdish. And ‘Barzani and the Kurdish liberation movement’ is written in Arabic too, but then translated to English.

Here is a source in Arabic, however you could easily copy and paste it to google dictionary (Arabic English) dictionary and see it for yourself, they even mention that Ahmed Barzani is one of the Muslim scholars, follower of Naqshbandi sect, http://www.pdksp.net/vb/showthread.php?t=7457

I am also willing to provide wikipedia with more sources if required —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.75.168.26 (talk) 10:50, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The source you have provided is a forum post. According to WP:BLP, posts from web forums cannot be used as references. You can look it up in the link, if you don't believe me. So, this source that you have provided is irrelevant. Anyway, i did translate it from Arabic to English in google translate, yet i did not any mention of Ahmed Barzani's religious beliefs. In the interview, Mullah Abdullah Rashid mentions Ahmed Barzani only as the brother of Mustafa. Ahmed Barzani is mentioned mentioned anywhere else in the interview, either before or after that line. In the interview, Mullah Abdullah only talks about himself, his experience in the Kurdish uprisings and his relationship with Mustafa Barzani. He states that Mustafa was a Muslim, not Ahmed. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 11:28, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Please do provide me with other sources that you can find. I'll assess them and see if they are usable. I can't use the one you just provided. You claimed that Ahmed Barzani's religious faith was mentioned in the "Mustafa Barzani and the Kurdish Liberation Movement". So, a reference from that book not be hard to find, assuming you have it. Provide me with an excerpt and page number. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 11:28, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

---

User : Joyson Noel

Here is another document from publications by Kurdistan Regional Government ( I hope that's credible for you enough) It is in arabic too, but you could translate it via google translation, it talks about Ahmed Barzani and his religion and it is titled as (Religion: Islam.... sect: Naqshbandi) here is the link

http://www.krg.org/articles/print.asp?anr=11810&lngnr=14&rnr=84

I hope you keep your word and remove what you wrote, let Ahmed Barzani be what he was, it is not moraly right to call him something he was not, and it is misinformation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.75.168.26 (talk) 13:33, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

While the link is definitely credible, it does not mention Ahmed Barzani's personal religious faith. It has a brief bio about Sheikh Ahmed Barzani, but nothing about his faith. The link only states that the Barzanis in general (i.e, as a group) were Nakshabandi Sufis. While this specifies that he was born into a Sufi muslim background, it could also lead one to assume that Sheikh Ahmed Barzani converted from Sufism to Christianity. Just because his family or group were Sufis, it does not necessarily mean that he remained one. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 14:29, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

It clearly states that he was a Muslim. Just right after his bio it says that he was a Muslim, however seems like you don't want to believe whatever I present to you, you asked for one source, I provided three, so please keep your word, if he converted to christianity I am sure they would have mentioned that in his bio, or in the book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.75.168.26 (talk) 15:23, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, you have provided three sources, all right! Three sources which make no mention of his religious beliefs. With regard to the first one (i.e, the book), you do not provide any quotes when asked to do so and instead, tell me to purchase it and find it out for myself. The second one is a useless forum post which only remotely mentions Ahmed Barzani. And the third one which states that the Barzani clan were Muslims, but gives no clue about Ahmed Barzani's personal faith. Yet after all this, i am supposed to simply replace the credibly sourced info about his conversion with fabricated info stating that he was a Muslim. Look, if you cannot provide a proper source which explicitly states that Ahmed Barzani himself was a Muslim, not his family or clan, then you have no business deleting sourced info from this article. Furthermore, the reason as to why they didn't mention it in his bio or the book can only be speculated and is not a good reason to delete sourced info. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 15:42, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Here is another source, it is a book by American Journalist Quil Lawrence published in 2008, the book's name is 'The Invisible Nation' and there is no mention that he converted to Christianity. Sheikh Ahmed was known for his preaching of religious tolerance and had many Muslim, Christian and Jews followers.

"The first Barzani rebellion in the early 1930s was led not by Mulla Mustafa, but his older brother Sheikh Ahmad of Barzan. While “Mullah” was a family name and had no religious significance, Sheikh Ahmad was a cleric”

Page 16, ‘The Invisible Nation’ book by Quil Lawrence —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.183.4.215 (talk) 19:21, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The book is unavailable for preview. See this. While i can verify quotes on books that have a snippet view or limited view, it seems that i can't do so for books that are unavailable for preview. So, there is no way for me to verify as to whether the statement is fabricated or not. Please try to find some other verifiable source instead. If you can't do so, i'll open a request for comment (RFC) to get other users comment on whether it can be used. In that case, i'll not make a final say on this, as i don't want to be unjustly accused of anti-Muslim bias. However, this is only a last resort. Try to find some other source, if you wan't this dispute to end fast. Opening an RFC might not work in your favor. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 20:34, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Why would I fabricate a statement, I swear it is a quote from the 'Invisible Nation' book, a source that is more credible than your source, according to wikipedia rules. Quil Lawrence spent many years in Kurdistan, and he is a very reliable source. Listen to me my friend, I would not go through this, find you books and quotes if I am not sure of something. You asked for a book, and here you have it, I even gave you a page number, it is not my fault that you can't review it online. Please honor your word; you always find excuses. I am not accusing you of being anti-Muslim, I am just stating the truth about him. Trust me if you tell any Kurd that Sheikh Ahmed converted to Christianity, they'll make fun, he is a very known religious figure in Barzan region. And for your information, the title 'Sheikh' is only reserved for clerics and Muslim religious figures. If he had converted to Christianity, I would have posted that myself, but the fact is he did not. I just want the truth be known. He was a very moderate Muslim cleric that is why he had many followers, even non-Muslim followers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.182.191.208 (talk) 23:54, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

• Okay, let's take it easy here, folks. I suggest a compromise of some sort here; Joyson Noel, the anon editor has provided a reference from a book that can be confirmed to exist and to be published by a credible publisher. That makes his citation useful and applicable, even if you can't find it online to confirm it - it's cited to an outside source. So what we've got is two citations that are opposing one another here - one says Christian, one says Muslim. I suggest that we don't actually have to mention his religion in the body of the text - we can instead use both Christian and Muslim in the infobox, with (disputed) and the cites to both references. If that doesn't work, then I strongly support the starting of an RFC to discuss this issue. Tony Fox (arf!) 01:36, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Wrong, the title "Sheikh" is not just reserved for Muslim religious figures and clerics, it is commonly used to designate an elder of a tribe or a revered wise man which Ahmed Barzani clearly was. For instance, Bachir Gemayel, the Maronite Catholic president of Lebanon was called a "Sheikh". Secondly, you cannot state that your source is more credible than mine with no proof. How is "The Kurdish Minority Problem" less credible than "The Invisible Nation"? In my opinion, they are both equally credible books about the Kurds. As for your motive, i will steer clear of making accusations and just stick to the necessary facts. For the record, i encounter dishonest people who try to distort wikipedia articles on a regular basis, so a motive is not really hard to think of. So, forgive me for saying that i don't trust you. Indeed, your lies about me in the beginning and your refusal to provide a source here before this block only added to the distrust. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 09:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, the point here is that even if the quote you provided is accurate, it still does not state that Sheikh Ahmed Barzani was a Muslim cleric, only that he was a cleric. Here is why. While conducting a search, i happened to stumble upon a few interesting facts. While the source does not mention conversion to Christianity in any way, it clearly alludes to the fact that he was not a Muslim. Instead, it states that he was a leader of his own religious movement, and it does not specify that the religious movement was Islamic. Instead, it gives substantial evidence to assume that it was a new religion. The source is page 179 of the "A modern history of the Kurds" by David McDowall. I will highlight the lines that indicates that he probably renounced Islam. Here are the excerpts:

Sheikh Ahmed used his spiritual status to ensure obedience. It is not clear whether he had religious delusion or novel ideas to reinforce his authority. He was however central to a religious cult that had nothing to do with Naqshabandi beliefs.

In 1927, at the very time that Barzan had been brought under administrative control, one of his Mullas, Mulla Ab al-Rahman was going around proclaiming Shaykh Ahmad to be 'god' and himself 'the prophet' - strong meat even in an area given to extreme religious eccentricity. The credulous were invited to abandon to Mecca qibla. Mulla Ab al-Rahman did not last long, killed by Shaykh Ahmad's brother, Muhammad Sadiq for attempting to substitute Shaykh Ahmad's name and his own in the call to prayer. Yet, such ideas lingered on. About ten weeks later, the small Balik tribe announced it's attachment to Shaykh Ahmad, recognizing none other than the divine shaykh..

Four years later, in 1931, Shaykh Ahmad's religious eccentricity led to war with an old Naqshabandi rival, Shaykh Rashid of Lolan, leader of the Baradust Kurds. Shaykh Ahmad told his followers to eat pork, symbolic of the synthesis of the synthesis of Christian beliefs with Naqshabandi Islam and encouraged destruction of copies of the Qu'ran. In July, Sheikh Rashid called on his people to deal with this unbelief by attacking Barzani villages.

The source indicates that he encouraged destruction of copies of the Qu'ran and that it was this unbelief which led Sheikh Rashid call on his people by attacking Barzani villages. In this context, i can interpret "unbelief" in only one way, unbelief in Islam. This is how i interpret it to be. Anyone else who disagrees can feel free to correct me.

So. it seems that the issue here is not whether he was a Christian or a Muslim, but whether he was a Christian (as stated by "The Kurdish Minority Problem") or whether he was an independent religious leader (as mentioned in this book). Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 09:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I just want to inform you both that i will be unable to edit wikipedia due to impending semester exams from 12 to 28. I will most probably be back on the 29th of this month. So until then, please don't take any measures and let the statements be. Thanks. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 16:00, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

---

Many extremists accuse Kurds of being “unbelievers” and ask their followers to attack them even today, that’s why you have so many terrorist attacks against Kurds in “mixed areas” of Iraq. Being secular and moderate does not make them “Christians”. There is no single biography that confirms that Ahmed Barzani converted to Christianity or was a Christian, so please remove that statement because it is not true. As I said he was a very moderate cleric, that is why had many followers and his enemies used that (accusing him of being not following the strict rules of Islam) to attack him. If he indeed converted to Christianity I am sure a western authors like Quil Lawrence or other authors would have mentioned that. Again check out Invisible Nation: How the Kurds' Quest for Statehood Is Shaping Iraq and the Middle East. Page 16 As I have mentioned before, I am willing to provide you with email address of credible journalists (working on Kurdish issues in the U.S.) and Iraqi Kurdistan government officials so you could confirm first hand that he did not convert to Christianity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.75.168.26 (talk) 11:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

-and you are wrong, you stated that "Shaykh Ahmad told his followers to eat pork" Barzan region is known to have many wild pigs, and when Barzan was under constant attacks, the residence were forced to flee to the mountains, where there was nothing to eat. So in order to save them from starving to death, he ( and many Muslim scholars) allowed eating pork, when there is no other option. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.75.168.26 (talk) 11:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC) 11:38, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

HERE IS ANOTHER Source, it is called 'The Kurds: a concise handbook' by Mehrdad R. Izady, page 158 “Sufi rituals in Kurdistan, led by Sufi masters, or Shaykhs, contain so many clearly non-Islamic rituals and practices that an objective observer would not consider them Islamic in the Orthodox sense” the book goes on to say “These members (murids) then participate in many rituals, including Sufi dances, chants, and prayers. When necessary they’ll go into combat for their Shaykhs. Shaykh Ubaydullah, Shaykh Sa’id, Shaykh Ahmad Barzani, and Shaykh Mahmud Barzanji, among others, were Sufi masters who asked for and received armed support from their murids in the political adventures”

It clearly states that Sheikh Ahmed Barzani was “Sufi” master. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.75.168.26 (talk) 11:38, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

How many moderate imams have you heard of that encourage destruction of copies of the Qu'ran? After the sentence is mentioned, the book itself calls his attitude as unbelief. It does not state that it's was solely the rival Naqshabandi Sheikh's opinion, but unbelief in general. As for why it is not mentioned in "The Invisible Nation", i cannot possibly know. Furthermore, i would also like to remind you that there is no biography or autobiography of Ahmed Barzani in the first place. As for this source, i would reject it as well. It does not provide a brief bio of Sheikh Ahmed Barzani like the two sources i provided. The source is not about Ahmed Barzani, and just mentions him with other Sufi Sheikhs as such. This could be because he was initially a Naqshabandi Sufi, but it does not provide any evidence that he remained as such. Indeed,the two sources i provided states otherwise. I will not be free from tomorrow onwards. So, please reply me as soon as possible. I'll be waiting. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 14:44, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, one more thing. I've noticed that you have been complaining to Tony. Don't nag the poor fellow so that you can get things done your way. He can read whatever is going on here. Simply harassing him with incessant messages is not going to help. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 14:49, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

---

• That's not true, here is a detailed bio of Ahmed Barzani from Kurdish Media

http://www.kurdmedia.com/article.aspx?id=15082

And it does not mention a thing about him converting to Christianity or being Christian

• You are accusing me of harassing Tony, when I am simply giving him the accurate information that he needs. You are harassing wikipedia by publishing false information based only on one report by CIA centries ago, when I provided you with farvious sources such as books and other credible publications, none of which by the way mention that he was Christian or converted to Christianity

Either back up your allegations with proof, or keep them to yourself. Well, in this case, i would definitely trust the CIA more than i would trust you. It is far more credible than you are or any of the sources you provided. As for harassment, you are probably not doing so with the intent to harass, but it's turning out that way. You are doing so with the hope of influencing his opinion on this subject, but in the process, are being extremely annoying. Also, most of the sources you provided do not mention that he was a Muslim either and the one that does, is not about him. Also, just because it does not mention conversion does not mean that he did not do so. To claim so is flawed logic. Therefore, it cannot in any way take precedence over the two sources i provided that are about him. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 16:34, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I have checked the Kurdish media source you provided, and it's all right. So, here's what i will do. I will mention that his religious faith is disputed, and will also mention his religious eccentricities. Plus, i will state that the "Kurdish Minority Problem" source which is quoted by the CIA link states that he converted to Christianity. This will be fair. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 16:52, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I have provided many sources that prove he did not convert to Christianity, or mention he was Christian. I have also said that I am willing to provide you with Kurdish officials, intellectuals, journalists’ email addresses to ask for yourself. But choose not to do anything and stick to your incredible source (by the way the second sources does not mention anything about him being Christian, and your claim is false), While I provided at least six sources, three of them are books.

Anyway, now let’s let other editors to evaluate the sources we provided and decide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.75.168.26 (talk) 16:54, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I never claimed that the second source i provided mentioned his conversion to Christianity. You should read things carefully before going ahead and making accusations. Anyway, in light of the contradictory sources we have provided, it would be both wise and encyclopedic to mention three of the sources (i.e, The Kurdish Minority report, A modern history of the Kurds, and the Kurdish media article) and state that his religious beliefs are disputed. So, i will go ahead and make the changes, as i will be inactive when the consensus is reached. In the event that it goes in your favor which i seriously doubt, you can always feel free to make your changes. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 17:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

The CIA document does not provide an author and it does not reference the claim. All it says is, "The first of the major Barzani revolts took place in 1931, when Sheikh Ahmed, announcing his conversion to Christianity succeeded in defeating a number of Kurdish tribes as well as regular Iraqi troops..." There is no record of such an announcement. It is a single source that could have come from anywhere or just bad intelligence at the time. Nevertheless, if his religious background is disputed then he shouldn't be called anything and if necessary it be noted that information about his religion is in dispute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.75.13.70 (talk) 14:02, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Semiprotected

So much for assuming good faith. Semiprotected for a month. IP: if you want to make changes, discuss, don't edit-war. (For the record, it's multiple IPs, so blocks likely won't do a lot of good.) Tony Fox (arf!) 00:54, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

This discussion is going nowhere

We're not getting anywhere with the back-and-forth. I'm going to start an RFC and hopefully draw some more attention. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I totally agree. Please do so. Moreover, send him a message letting him know that. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 16:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

RFC: Evaluation of sources to determine the subject's religion

Two editors have differing sources and interpretation of those sources regarding the religious beliefs of the article subject; the main bone of contention is whether Ahmed Barzani converted to Christianity, as some sources indicate. The references presented by both editors appear to be split as to this case. The questions to be answered by this RFC are: validity of the references provided, and how best to approach the subject's religious beliefs. Copious discussion can be found above on the talk page. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Anyone who is interested can refer the section entitled "Sources". Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 16:13, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Tony, you can remove the tag. I accept a compromise on this one. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 16:53, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I think I'm going to let this run for a while and see what other editors have to say. It's better to have more opinions on a contentious issue - that way, we have a better consensus to work with in the article. I do appreciate your accepting a compromise position, though - hopefully some other folks will drop in and affirm that being the best route to take here. Tony Fox (arf!) 17:52, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Sure, Tony. I'm OK with that. Joyson Noel ^{Holla at me} 17:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

No response, no complaints, we'll just go with what we've got and call it close enough, I suppose. Tony Fox (arf!) 03:46, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

• Ok, so I'm looking at the two sources here, the first source outright says he converted to Christianity whereas the second source doesn't really says anything about his religion besides he grew up tolerant of other religions. Abstrakt (talk) 00:32, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

♦The CIA document does not provide an author and it does not reference the claim. All it says is, "The first of the major Barzani revolts took place in 1931, when Sheikh Ahmed, announcing his conversion to Christianity succeeded in defeating a number of Kurdish tribes as well as regular Iraqi troops..." There is no record of such an announcement. It is a single source that could have come from anywhere or just bad intelligence at the time. The other sources specifically mention that he was of the Naqshbandi order and that he was a religious leader. Multiple sources vs one source, could mean that the one source was wrong since that source cannot be verified (as of now) but Barzani's family can be contacted for such information. Nevertheless, if his religious background is disputed then he shouldn't be called anything and if necessary it be noted that information about his religion is in dispute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.75.13.70 (talk) 14:09, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

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