Talk:Afro-pessimism (United States)

Improved References

Hey there, saw your post on WP:AFRO and thought I'd help where I can. I've listened to a lot of lectures by Wilderson, but haven't done a lot of reading on the topic. So, I've improved the references as best I was able using the {{cite book}} and {{cite journal}} citation templates. I couldn't find all the information about the World Policy Journal I wanted, so there's a few more things I'll eventually try to add to the Rieff citation. If you have any links to online versions of any of the materials, even if they are behind paywalls, let me know and we can revamp the citations. -Furicorn (talk) 22:08, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Also, I think we should have a red link to Jared Sexton somewhere in the article (I'm ok if it's not in the references), because I think it makes sense for him to eventually have a short bio. -Furicorn (talk) 22:14, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Cool thanks Furicorn! I'll add the red link back in. Hexatekin (talk) 00:30, 7 September 2017 (UTC) Lol I stand corrected. How to I put an interwiki link in a reference? Can't easily find the documentation! =)

Ok, I added the link back in using the author-link parameter -Furicorn (talk) 06:12, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Infobox

I would like to put an infobox on here but it seems as if there are no infoboxes for philosophical or critical concepts. What is available are infoboxes for philosophers, artists, etc., which obviously doesn't work here. Anyone know of an appropriate infobox, or want to make one? *hint hint* Hexatekin (talk) 05:27, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

@Hexatekin: Hey, I threw on some navigation templates - {{Critical theory}}, {{continental philosophy}}, and {{Philosophy topics}}. I am ok with their removal if anyone thinks any of those are inappropriate. There is also a list of additional philosophy templates at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Philosophy/Templates. As far as infoboxes, I also couldn't find any but maybe a sidebar will do? Maybe {{sociology}} or {{Psychology sidebar}}? Wikipedia:WikiProject_Socialism has three sidebars that also may be worth considering. -Furicorn (talk) 17:28, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Possible alternative citation for Botes "The Hopeless Continent?"

I was looking for sources of Botes' monograph "The Hopeless Continent?: 2007/2008 Local and International Media Representations of Africa", and while it doesn't appear to be available in any library according to worldcat, the work appears to be based on their MA thesis, which is publicly available here. Does anyone know if the thesis is an acceptable substitute for the monograph? Alternatively, does anyone know a good link where someone could find a copy or access the monograph (even a paywall link)?-Furicorn (talk) 07:01, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Remove (United States) from the title

Other philosophies and theories don't have parentheses with location that a theory may comment on and it doesn't make sense to include it here. Afro-pessimism speaks widely to conditions affecting Black people in a pan-African tradition. We should not have 2 separate articles, a merge of these articles should be a priority with this page, see:

• Afro-pessimism (Africa)
• Afro-pessimism (United States)

Hexatekin (talk) 04:03, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@Hexatekin: The best approach would probably be to begin a merge discussion. For what it's worth, they do seem to me to be separate topics as they're essentially different coinages of the same term in different contexts with different meanings. I'm less convinced that Afro-pessimism (Africa) is an independently notable topic, though. The two sources cited certainly use the term but I'm not sure that they discuss it in sufficient depth. Pinging Brigade Piron, who created that article, in case they haven't seen this. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 18:52, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Also pinging User:Fifelfoo in case they have thoughts on this. Hexatekin (talk) 23:10, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Arms & Hearts. I created Afro-pessimism (Africa) precisely because it was distinct from the earlier title. It anything to do with "conditions affected Black people in a pan-African tradition" but a particular political diagnosis of the situation in Sub-Saharan Africa in the 1980s and 1990s - potentially even a racist one according to its critics - which has no particular connection to colonialism, slavery, or the situation of African-Americans. Hexatekin, do you have any sources to suggest that there is any connection? There is no particular reason that ideas with the same title need to have any commonality, witness Orangism (Belgium), Orangism (Dutch Republic) and Orangism (Northern Ireland). —Brigade Piron (talk) 07:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

This is all reasonable enough, but doesn't address the fact that this article is about a pan-African (or at least broader than just U.S.) topic, but its new title doesn't reflect that. Just from looking at the blurb for Wilderson's Afropessimism for example, we find: Why does race seem to color almost every feature of our moral and political universe? ... And why is anti-Black violence such a predominant feature not only in the United States but around the world? Given it's also probably the primary topic, I think we should move this back to the base name. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 18:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I support the idea of moving this article back to the base name. The idea contained by Afro-pessimism (Africa) does have a more clear geographic specificity, while the idea in this article is more global in nature, in Wilderson's writings, and in contemporary usage. Hexatekin (talk) 08:56, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Gidday. I was summoned by pinging. I don't see why a French mistranslated economic useage is of greater significance than a generalised thesis about the largest English Language economic entity in the world for modern historiography or modern political science terms. The distinction seems to be "Afro-pessimism" as a thesis in US studies; and, "Afro-pessimism" as a passing reference in french econometric imperialism. Both articles are about *scholarly terms* not about external reality. (No matter how much anyone may want external reality to be ordered by the scholarly terms of their choice.) Given that these are issues in scholarly debate a better distinction might be *MERGE* Afro-pessimism is a set of scholarly terms around White Settler Societies World Systems Metropoles Organisation of African Identity. The Major usage is in US studies as a historical and sociological term. The Minor use is in France's third world war on Africa. Etc. I hope you get the point I'm making here: both articles are *category errors* in topicality. The differentiation isn't external reality (United States / Africa) but scholarly discourse (US Studies / French Imperialism). Fifelfoo (talk) 06:45, 24 November 2023 (UTC)