Talk:Abu Qatada al-Filistini

Expanding article

I have started to redo this piece and bring it up to a standard befitting such a champion of al-Qaeda and Londonistan. LDH 12:51, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Patience, folks. More coming.LDH 16:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Removed an unsourced, unverifiable, and apparently untrue, sentence

I removed this unsourced sentence:

• Abu Qatada is frequently cited – always with approval – in the 2004 al-Qaeda policy paper called Management of Savagery.

This looks like original research, since googling for 'Abu Qatada' 'Management of Savagery' comes up with nothing that says that he's mentioned in the paper. It also appears to be a lie, in that I downloaded a pdf copy of Management of Savagery (see the wiki page for links to it), converted it to text and tried grepping for 'Qatada' and 'Omar' and 'Mahmoud' and 'Othman' and found absolutely nothing. If this article is going to be a target for disinformation, I reckon that's a cue for me to come back to this article at a later date and ruthlessly excise anything that isn't properly sourced with page numbers and whatnot.--Aim Here 22:27, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Looks like you may have messed up. There are actually numerous references to "Shaykh `Umar Mahmud Abū `Umar". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.38.190 (talk) 01:07, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

More unsourced stuff

I slapped a 'fact' tag on this passage, but I've a sneaking suspicion it might be false, in that I've only found a mere blog posting claiming that he was the editor while someone else issued a fatwa declaring the Algerian people to be 'kufr' [1]. Anyone got any reliable sources that back up the rather sensationalist wording of the article, or even the less exciting version in the blog?

• While free in the UK Abu Qatada was the editor-in-chief of GIA's Al-Ansar magazine, and contributed fatwas to that magazine authorizing the indiscriminate mass murder of random Algerians. (Mustafa Setmariam Nasar was an editor and contributor at the same time, when he too was in England with political refugee status.)

Aim Here 10:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Legal status

I am not happy with the recent addition of the Court of Appeal case on the potential deportation of Qatada; it looks much like a copy/paste job from the BBC website. Any objections to removal? Let me know Ben stephenson (talk) 21:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Palestinian

An IP has edited "...is a Palestinian Islamist militant".

There is actually a Wiki article Definitions of Palestinian and on the basis of that I suppose it's accurate from a strictly ethnic point of view. However I have misgivings given that a majority of UN nations accept that there is a State of Palestine and calling him Palestinian suggests he is a citizen of that state. But he is not, he is Jordanian and what is at issue presently is whether he can be safely deported to his native Jordan.

I also frankly suspect a "he's a Palestinean, so let's call him a Palestinian" agenda here. I don't know what Wikipedia crieria are, but common sense suggests that the tag is only really appropiate if Mr. Qatada identifies himself publicly as a Palestinian (and indeed whether his fellow Palestineans endorse that identification) and he has not. Opening paragraph guidance in that case is that ethnicity should not be mentioned. Moreover I can find no recent identifications of him in the media as Palestinean, indeed just the one CBS caption for a file photo dating from 2001.

I'm therefore reverting the edits and ask the IP to bring the issue here. 81.178.38.169 (talk) 19:18, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Chicago IP is persisting with Palestinean origin in lede. I'm leaving it since Sky News has recently led with "Palestinean" covering Qatada's release on bail. JabbarWales (talk) 04:32, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Chicago IP is persistently blanking, soapboxing etc. I've reverted but we are out of here now. Done our bit :). JabbarWales (talk) 08:55, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

It's now "a Palestinian Islamist militant of Jordanian citizenship" :). I would have preferred "a Jordanian Islamist militant of Palestinean origin" if we must reach some compromise that includes "Palestinean", but I'm not going to sully myself with the edit. It's an essentially racist remark, rather like saying (à propos of strictly nothing concerning the possible origin of the IP) "Melanie Phillips is a Jewish Daily Mail journalist of British nationality". However I am aware that around 62,218,761 people in the UK are of the opion that our Abu is the nastiest piece of shit ever to wash up on our shores and I have to say I can see where they are coming from there, so I think I'll just let it go and let one our of teenage would-be editors cut their teeth on it ... I'm pleasantly surprised, incidentally, how disciplined the community has been here. Just the single one inch generative organ so far :).

Finished here too. 81.178.38.169 (talk) 17:14, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Should we describe him as Palestinian without a ref to support that? Does being born in what is now Palestinian territory qualify him as Palestinian? Jim Michael (talk) 14:54, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Link 13

This links to a profile of Abu Hamza who is a different person.Streona (talk) 10:08, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Streona. Yes, I was puzzled by that at first when I was reviewing the article, but in fact it does mention Qatada, indirectly supporting the article's assertion:"Diyab presented Abu Hamza as an example of an Islamist who had relinquished violence, citing Abu Hamza's call in 1997 not to obey the fatwa issued by another London fundamentalist, the Palestinian-Jordanian Abu Qatada who had called upon Muslims to kill the wives and children of Egyptian police and army officers as part of the struggle in Arab countries."

The Middle East Media Research Institute is a questionable Reliable Source (RS) I should say (partisan, willing to wager that J's Chicago IP above is them :)) and I did consider scrapping the citation and providing another, but in fact I couldn't find one, other than sources (including his SIAC hearings) referencing fatwas he issued advocating the killing of women and children but not mentioning the specific context: I suspect Algeria rather than Egypt.

In the end I left it. Much of that section worries me. When I was trying to source the various assertions, especially the sermons in Atta's Hamburg flat, I got the queasy feeling that many of them were in fact relying on the Wiki article! 81.178.38.169 (talk) 12:58, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Background and imprisonment (bold edit 15 February 2012) etc.

Really nice edit by User:CN3777. Appreciated. In places perhaps verging on personal reflection but I did like it. Many thanks. Didn't have the time or the skill myself. 81.178.38.169 (talk) 17:53, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

The edits by User:Iloveandrea of 29 Feb seem to have a political bias. This is shown by the deletion of my citation to the Daily Mail with the comment "(No. There is no way the Mail can be regarded as a credible source on anything to to with terrorism, Muslims, immigrants, etc.)". I am no fan of the paper myself, but it may be from here (and only here) that the words used in the text come - I searched to find it. Removing the citation because the editor thinks a commonly read newspaper cannot be trusted on a topic, is political bias and probably libellous. I shall put the citation back, if Iloveandrea can find a better citation then maybe it could be replaced. There was also a change made by this editor with the comment " (So long, Migration Toss! you far-Right, anti-immigrant collection of nutjobs! I've replaced the citation with something worth more than nothing.) ". This is going much too far.Myrvin (talk) 20:28, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Also the citation from the Times was a word-for-word quotation beginning "Britain ignored warnings ", but had not been given quotation marks. A change was soon made to change the word 'hid' to 'apparently been hiding', which were not in the Times article. You cannot warp words from a citation to suit your own bias. Myrvin (talk) 20:44, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the following:

Qatada became a potent figure in the Islamic intellectual community in London in the 1990s and became a leading member of the group, Al-Muhajiroun, led by the militant clerics Omar Bakri Muhammad and Anjem Choudary. He was imam at a mosque in north London and built up a strong following by preaching across the capital.[citation needed]

I cannot find these assertions anywhere, and he is not mentioned in the Al-Muhajiroun article. Myrvin (talk) 21:47, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Egyptian police

I have removed: "In 1997, Abu Qatada called upon Muslims to kill the wives and children of Egyptian police and army officers.[citation needed]". I can only find this assertion on a Jewish-American site[2]. Looks rather biased, and it was reported nowhere else before 2006. Myrvin (talk) 10:07, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I will look into this. He certainly has made some kind of fatwa of this sort but it wasn't clear to me that it was directed against the Egyptian police. David Osborne 2 (talk) 16:23, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I have deleted "He became famous after 1994 when he supported the fatwa of an Algerian cleric that the killing of women and children by the militants in the Algeria was justified." because it is not supported by the reference provided. We need a RS for this fatwa and I can't find one. 216.166.10.188 (talk) 01:22, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Sentence removal

I have removed the sentence "Abu Qatada has always distanced himself from links to Al Qaeda and insisted he has never met with Osama Bin Laden" as the source provided says nothing of the kind.

The whole article misses the essence of the man though. What you non-scholars need to be aware of regarding Qatada is that he is a neo-kharijite. The main focus for them is that they are interested in killing Muslims whom they deem apostates - that is their primary goal, a matter not well documented in Western academic circles. The base ideology of these people is that of the kharijites, those who excommunicate whole Muslim societies for simple reason of the absence of total Shari'ah rule in their lands, and due to them being ruled by those they see as corrupt and tyrannical, and due to the presence of what they see major sins in the society as a whole. This ideology is based entirely on the notion of 'purification' and is the starting point of terrorism carried out by Muslims in the name of Islam. This terrorism is directed first and foremost towards Muslim societies and is not something that emerged primarily in response to non-Muslims or in non-Muslim lands. For example, Qatada on May 19, 1999 "We do not desire to fight America unless it attacks us, and begins the fight first. This is different to the fight against the apostate regimes in our lands, those against whom jihad is an individual obligation upon every single Muslim" (italics mine).

This trait is not unique to Abu Qatada, rather it is a trait of all contemporary neo-kharijites.

Yes, he is a menace to Western society, but your article makes no mention at all of any of his beliefs or sermons. It does not study or describe the man, rather the situation he finds himself in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.129.50.161 (talk) 01:37, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I have restored the sentence because it is indeed referenced in the Daily Mail piece (yellow infobox at end), and in any case the assertion multiply sourced. The Talk page is not a place for the discussion of an article's subject, but rather for improving the subject's coverage. If you think his beliefs are inadequately covered in the article, you are at liberty to edit the article accordingly. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 09:57, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Shaykh 'Abdul-Malik ar-Ramadani al-Jaza'iri

An IP editor keeps removing a sentence:

"Abu Qatada's writings and speeches have been critically assessed by a contemporary Salafi Muslim scholar from Algeria, Shaykh 'Abdul-Malik ar-Ramadani al-Jaza'iri, in the book Takhlis al-'Ibad min Wahshiyyat Ab'il-Qataad aladhi yu'du ila Qatli'n-Nisa wa Awlad [or "Liberating the Servants from the Barbarism of the Father of Thorns Who Propagates the Killing of Women and Children"] (Jeddah: Maktabah Asalah al-Athariyyah, 2001 CE/1422 AH)."

The citation for that sentence is as follows:

Shaykh 'Abdul-Malik ar-Ramadani al-Jaza'iri (2007). "The Savage Barbarism of Aboo Qataadah" (pdf). Retrieved 14 February 2009. lecture given at Masjid Ibn Taymeeyah (Brixton Mosque, London) on 21 August 2005 CE. The lecture based on Shaykh AbdulMaalik's book Takhlhees al-'Ibaad min Washiyyati...

The IP editor claims that salafiminhaj.com is not a reliable source. But it is surely a reliable source for the sentence.

I think it would be better if the URL were changed to http://www.salafimanhaj.com/?p=151. Whilst the URL given in the citation is the correct URL for the pdf file, if you use the http://www.salafimanhaj.com/pdf/SalafiManhajQataadah.pdf URL you merely get to a front page of the website.-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:28, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

What a load of bullshit. How can salafiminhaj.com be reliable for a bio of living person? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.42.119.75 (talk) 13:39, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

All that the citation is for is a statement that bu Qatada's writings and speeches have been critically assessed by Shaykh 'Abdul-Malik ar-Ramadani. Why is the cite not a reliable source for this statement?-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:48, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Who the heck is ramadani? Some unknown bloke who happens to hate terrorist Abu qatada. And what? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.42.119.75 (talk) 14:03, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Spanish source

Currently, the most heavily cited source is in Spanish (http://estaticos.elmundo.es/documentos/2003/09/garzon_binladen/auto_1.pdf). The reference says to search for "Qatada", but this is not possible, as the pdf is not searchable. The document is also 100 pages long, so difficult to search manually. Thus, in accordance with WP:NONENG, quotations or at least page numbers should be provided for each of the references.

The following sentence discusses alleged associates: "He is known to have associated with Osama bin Laden, Abu Dahdah,[27] Mohammed Haydar Zammar, Mohammed Omran, Mustafa Setmariam Nasar,[28] Khalid al-Fawwaz[29] and Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi and his sermons were at one point greatly valued by many in the Al-Qaeda camp.[21]" This appears to have several citations, but [27], [28], and [29] simply provide pseudonyms, and [21] is the Spanish document above. The article claims that Abu Qatada denies contact with Osama Bin Laden, so the asserted association appears to be poorly cited and potentially libelous. Thus, until proper citations are produced, this sentence should be deleted, as per WP:BLP. 86.164.31.123 (talk) 18:22, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Try finding another copy. This perhaps: http://www.ambito.com/diario/aw_documentos/archivosdoc/2003/id_doc_2280.doc. The document is actually about 693 pages. The one linked in the article is truncated to page 100. Search the document using this string: "QUTADA". "QATADA" produces no hits. There are many instances of Abu Qatada. Searching for "Qutada" produces 193 hits. The first in on page 3 2.-OMAR MAHMUD OTHMAN (a) ABU QUTADA, 3.- ANWAR ADNAN AHMAD SALAH (a) ABU SALEH Try translating it in sections with google. Jim1138 (talk) 20:10, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

This looks like a Spanish court indictment and is not an appropriate source to demonstrate that Qutada associated with those people. -Darouet (talk) 18:12, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Primary sources used for inclusion of controversial content on a WP:BLP

This article suffered from multiple instances of using primary sources to source controversial content. I've removed a number of those instances and will check that the article is free of them. Primary sources (see WP:PRIMARY) are not appropriate sources (see WP:RS) for a content in the biography of a living person (see WP:BLP). I have made a posting at the at the BLP noticeboard that you can view or comment at here: WP:BLPN#Abu_Qatada. -Darouet (talk) 20:38, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Good call. Such primary sources should not be used in BLPs. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:05, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

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