Talk:A Tout le Monde

Untitled

Going over the lyrics at the official Site (hyperlink given on page) I came across the demo version of A Tout le Monde. Going over the chorus of the original song, the lyrics are (obviously) different. Normally this 'discovery' shouldn't be ona a Discussion page, but the last line, "...ce la vie" (That's life), which hints that it's not a suicide, and he accepts that he must die, even though he'd really like to stay with his family. Perhaps we could insert that in, if no one has any objections. --Garaiavu 13:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

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Accent

In French, it is improper and a grammatical error to put an accent on capitals. Capitalized words NEVER take their accent in the initial (the capitalized letter) even when said letter bears an accent in lowercase. Therefore "rectified" is the wrong word to use it. A tout le monde is correct, À tout le monde is incorrect. There was never anything to correct, just someone who is not very proficient in French thought there was an error and in seeking to 'rectify' it created a major spelling error. Someone needs to add this in wiki-lingo to the text. Thanks!

I'm sorry to contradicted, but this is completely wrong. Capital letter has always been capitalized until we had to deal with limited character set of first printing machine and then computers (the height of a line is also a problem).

Correct French definitely use capital letter with accent, but, as we are not (always)stupid, we tolerate unaccentuated if you can't do otherwise. --Madlozoz (talk) 12:59, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Whether it's correct French or not, I'll always rue that change and the lack of support for my attempt to rename the article accordingly. If there's no accent on any printed material, then it shouldn't be there. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:09, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, Yes

the lyrics r perfectly alright ....i ve carefully noticed my self/../., HAIL MEGADEATH

I completely agree, maybe we can learn something from this song. There is obviously a moral thats taking place in the interveiw.

187- I always thought it was "So as you read this note my friends". Isnt that what it says in the United Abominations book?

No

The answer is no, the correct lyrics for that part are "So as you read this know my friends" as read in the Youthanasia and the United Abominations booklets. --Victor787 10 July 2007

Kimveer Gill

I read the whole of Gill's profile/journal and nowhere does it mention the song helped him set his mind for the attack. It only says it was a song he was listening to the day of the attacks. Unless someone can source that I think it should be deleted. Lg1223 22:16, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Page Title

Should the title of this page be À Tout le Monde? That is both correct French grammar and follows Wikipedia naming conventions, as per Titles and sections. As it is, the title is "Have All The World". --82.46.190.172 02:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I think this page should be titled 'A Tout le Monde' (without the accent grave). It might be bad French, I don't know, but neither the back of the CD, the inside of the CD booklet, the cover of the single or the official Megadeth website have that accent, so that's just what the song is called. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.214.193.92 (talk) 14:27, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Whilst I can live with the article title staying as it is (too much hassle to start changing things again, since there's already been a merge in the past), I nonetheless strongly agree that all instances within the article pertaining to the original Youthanasia version should be without the accent, since all of the album's printed material (front/back cover and liner notes) do not include it in any way. As far as I can tell, Wikipedia's naming conventions don't mention anything about proactively correcting titles as they were printed, and even if it did I would strongly disagree with that. If I get no further feedback back on this within a few weeks, I'm going ahead and changing it myself (whilst leaving the remake unchanged, since they did indeed include the accent for that). Don't agree? Well, just take a look at the front cover of the single—no accent in sight! Mac Dreamstate (talk) 10:51, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

And that's what I've done, since nobody disagreed with it on here. Let it be so. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:27, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Video banned by MTV twice.

I think it's worthy of mention that both the original video for this song and it's Set Me Free remake are banned from MTV because they percieve the song to be about suicide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.109.30 (talk) 12:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Propsed Merge

I support the proposed merge of À Tout le Monde (Set Me Free) and À Tout le Monde. TheWeakWilled (T * G) 01:10, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Me too --Pratstercs (talk) 00:48, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I third that motion, I don't know how to do it though. --Ajgajg1134 00:29, 31 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajgajg1134 (talk • contribs)

Definetly it must be the Remake in the same page with the original one - Annonymus (October 25th, 2010)

a tout le monde

it is not about killing your self it is about the deth of your hart when you leave someone behinde —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.97.8.152 (talk) 20:14, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

À Tout le Monde

Even in France, the capital A on some font sets doesn't always show the accent, but this is still covered by WP:FRMOS. In any event, some of the full font reliable printed sources in English do spell the title correctly:

• Subgenres of the Beast: A Heavy Metal Guide - Page 352 1312984503 Yrjänä Kegan "Motörhead ... Machine Head -Megadeth – À Tout le Monde"
• Born This Way - Page 71 1105052346 Jordan Huffman - 2011 "“À Tout le Monde,” Megadeth From the 1994 album Youthanasia"

In ictu oculi (talk) 18:31, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

But surely those sources should be trumped by the actual material itself, namely the cover art, which does not have the accent. Furthermore, MOS:FR states to "Use English title when well-known". Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:36, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

To this edit I say—cover art, 1995, right there in the infobox. No accent. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:40, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

No, we rarely follow cover art and again, even in France, the capital A on some font sets doesn't always show the accent, see French orthography, but this is still covered by WP:FRMOS. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:42, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Explain to me why "we rarely follow cover art"—where is that stated on WP? Also, why go against accuracy when even WP:FR states to "use the most common form of the name or expression used in English"? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:44, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

• I can't recall which of the guideline pages specifically applies WP:MOSTM to music articles. But look around. You'll see for example that more generally all sorts of stuff happens on Japanese album cover artwork, our album articles' titles don't usually follow that either. It's a MOS issue, en.wp MOS. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:46, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Having read through WP:MOSTM, which does not even cover music articles (and I have read through the MOS's on those as well), I see nothing that pertains to the use of accents. A trademark is not the same as the title of a music work, and WP:MOSTM mainly focuses on case and special characters—not accents as it relates to French. Either way, I'll seek other opinions on this, possibly in the form of an RfC. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:55, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

User:Mac Dreamstate you can use WP:RM template for a 7-day move discussion. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:58, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Much thanks for the pointer. I'll give that a try. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:00, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 01 January 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. No support, request (rightly) withdrawn. Andrewa (talk) 11:14, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

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À Tout le Monde → A Tout le Monde – Should be moved for accuracy, as it is well-documented that no accent appears on the original cover art in any form. – Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:29, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:23, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

• @Mac Dreamstate and In ictu oculi: Doesn't appear to be accurate, printed sources have the accent - see Sean Albiez & ‎David Pattie 2011, David Buckley 2015 etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:22, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - with English books spelling it in line with WP:FRMOS no need to misspell what is a French phrase when the singer is singing "À tout le monde / À tout mes amis / Je vous aime / Je dois partir" just because of the usual limitations of cap fonts - see French orthography and WP:FRMOS. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:55, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
• Comment – I maintain that the original source material, namely the front cover, should be adhered to rigorously. This is a different issue than the use of special symbols or case, which obviously go against basic MOS; I have yet to see a WP guideline or policy, whether in WP:MOSALBUM, WP:MOSTM or WP:FRMOS, which states that typos in music-related titles should be corrected, regardless of whether secondary sources have done so, and regardless of the language used. Two examples as it relates to the use of English: the typo in "Cemetry Gates" from The Queen Is Dead is maintained in that article, as is "In Conspirasy with Satan" from Bathory. External sources may decide to correct them on the artists' behalf, but then accuracy is lost. Likewise the graphic artist for Megadeth decided not to use (or simply forgot) the French grave accent in all original printed material displaying the title, so I believe that is what should be reproduced exactly as intended—unless there is a WP policy clearly stating that "Typos or linguistic irregularities—whether English or foreign—in printed material must be corrected on an artist's behalf." To use another example, the album Degüello makes use of the "ü" character, per the front cover; but if the character was not present, there would be no reason to add it. The same should apply here, in that the graphic artist may indeed have used 'poor' French, which has since been 'corrected' by external sources, but why must WP enforce some loosely-written guidelines ("The following rules do not claim to be the last word") to correct a minor detail that was indelibly established in print? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 12:13, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose – It is a common typographical convention in French to omit accents from capital letters. This is not evidence that the accent is not there, just that it's not shown. Dicklyon (talk) 18:00, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Comment – Yes, it is not shown. So why must *we* show it, when the graphic artist chose not to? For all we know, they may have intended it that way or simply forgotten. WP rules should not be grounds for enforcing a correction on something that does not violate MOS (such as special symbols or all caps), on an English-language article, no less. To use a more far-out example, the Montreal article does not include the accent—what's the story there, and how does it differ in this case? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:09, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't think we have much interest in what the graphic artist chose to do. We go by reliable secondary sources. Montreal is widely Anglicized in English-language sources, but this French phrase and song title is not. Dicklyon (talk) 07:05, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment – it appears they do use the accent on the 2007 album version. I presume I can show that here as fair use for discussion, at least temporarily. It's File:Megadeth_Set_Me_Free.jpg Dicklyon (talk) 07:03, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

That is true, although I maintain that an original work (and its printed material) should take precedence over a remix. What still stands, in proverbial 'stone', is that there is no accent on the original single cover art, nor the album. My gripe now appears to be with WP's primary sources policy, or some other area of MOS, therefore I withdraw the move request. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 12:09, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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