Talk:7th Armoured Division (United Kingdom)

Flash

Could someone please add an image of the Division's flash - the gerboa. If it's good enough for the Afrika Korps to have their's...GrahamBould 09:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Victorrfr GrahamBould 07:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I have inserted a section on the derivation of the flash and nickname. It is clear from Leakey's book cited in the article that the shoulder flashes were originally red, and became black in 1943. This can be seen in the photographs in his book, even though they are in black and white. The image shown in the article is what Leakey described as like a kangaroo, so clearly post-1943, but it is red, not black. Can anyone explain this? Did the colour change again?Exbrum (talk) 15:36, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Dissolution

At one point, I believe the 7th was dissolved and then rebuilt with equipment from the Tiger Convoy just prior to Operation Battleaxe. Does anyone have any details on why/when the unit was dissolved? Oberiko 22:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe the division was dissolved, rather it had very little equipment for a time, until the Tiger convoy arrived. Buckshot06 01:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to throw some information on this and i know this is why out of date, the Division was not dissolved, it was brought back into reserve and 2nd Armour went into the line as the 7th had taken allot of tank losses due to brakedowns during compass. They were back in action as a Brigade group for Brevity and was competly rebuilt just after this operation--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 11:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge

It's pretty obvious it should be merged GrahamBould 12:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Buckshot06 01:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

1945

This article seems to give the impression that the desert rats disapeared after the war. I am sure this is not true. http://www.army.mod.uk/7bde/history.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.194.152.131 (talk) 10:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

The division did, it was disbanded. The current "desert rats" are a brigade within the new 1st armoured division and only carry on there history and honours but are not the division.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 11:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Blood soaked

How did J.A.L. "Blood" Caunter get left off the list of commanders? (OK, he was acting GOC, but...) Trekphiler 05:05, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

A Mess!

This article is currently a mess!

Large ammounts of text copied and pasted from websites, few citations for anything and some of the ones which have been added have been done so incorrectly so they do not display properly.

As for the text, it is chocked full or errors - both of historical and gramatical!

We need a plan of action here...--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 20:59, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

tank strength

Lt Col. Joslen states the division final establishment was basic organisation VII, which would mean a total strength of 278 tanks and from the looks of Joslen's info no Light or OP tanks. Both the Guards and 11th, who served with the 7th in Normandy, are both placed on establishment VIII i.e. 343 tanks including lights and OPs. From various works detailing the battles the 7th fought we know they were equipped with light tanks and OPs. SO does anyone have a source that gives their final, on-paper or actual, tank strength?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:27, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

gulf war

A book called the "in the eye of the storm commanding the desert rats in the gulf war" by major General Patrick Cordingley talks about Desert Rats during the Gulf war, which hasn't been included in the main wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dgamma3 (talk • contribs) 09:48, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi, you should find the information you need under the article to do with the 1st Armoured Division. 7th Armour was eventually disbanded and one of the brigades within the 1st Armour carries on the traditions and nickname. Regards --EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 12:00, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

File:Desert Rats.svg Nominated for Deletion

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Order of battle?

Where is it?? What were the regiments in this division?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.206.182 (talk) 12:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

It was moved to its own seperate page, it would appear the link was never put in this article or it was removed at some point. I have inserted a link into the top of the history section.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:58, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Defeated at Bocage in an encounter with Michael Wittmann's Tiger I

Just came accross this conversation which is mostly about Michael Wittmann (of whom I have never heard before that).

http://www.militarian.com/threads/one-german-tiger-versus-50-soviet-t-34.9312/#post-50865

Since it is mentioned there that the armoured column he destroyed was that of the "Desert Rats" (of whom I had heard and held in high regard) I came here to see what the wiki article has to say about this. Not much. If this is true, and it does seem so, I think it is only fair that this info be included in the article. It may not show the "Rats" in a very good light but nevertheless is part of their history and IMO must be included in the article.

Any comments, thoughts, objections?

There's also a documentary about Wittman on youtube (though the documentary does not specifically say that the British tanks destroyed were of the 7th Armoured): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYcZxk4c6eE — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aenchevich (talk • contribs) 15:17, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

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Hannover District

Per Watson and Rinaldi, p. 11, the division "merged with Hannover District during 1947. It was effectively disbanded in this process, but seems to have lingered until an official disbanding in early 1948." He also notes that the 22nd Armoured Brigade became the 7th Armoured Brigade in January 1947. On p. 15: "7th Armoured Division reformed beginning Mar 1949"

• Watson, Graham; Rinaldi, Richard A. (2005) [2008]. McArthur, Robert (ed.). The British Army in Germany: An Organizational History 1947–2004. Stroud: Tiger Lily Publications LLC (self-published) for ORBAT.com. ISBN 0-9720296-9-9.

I have not been able to verify the merge with Hannover District via any other published source. With it being a self-published work, I do not see it meeting WP:RS and passing through the review process. I don't think it's wrong, as I have seen this referenced on forums and blogs etc. Also, a published work cited in this article also does verify that the division was reformed from Hannover District. Forty, IIRC as I do not have his work in front of me at the moment, alludes to Pip Roberts being the last commander before the division was temporarily disbanded. Although, The Times reports Roberts switching places with Philip Balfour and him becoming 7th Arm Div GOC. The Tank, the RTR's journal, does verify the HQ being deactivated around March 1948. It does seem there is a bit more to the story of the final months of the division (Balfour charged with demobbing and merging the 7th Arm District into Hannover District maybe?), but there does not appear to be any sources that outline what went on.

The reformation part is also in the air a little. The above stated March 1949. The Times and The Gazette do not have any information on when Miller became the GOC, and I have found very little information on him or Hannover District. The Tank does state he was the first commander back and that seems to stem from the April 1948 issue. Not sure if I have the wrong issue or the above has the wrong date, who knows. I have requested to see if anyone on the Resource Exchange has the relevant issue, but so far nothing.

So, if anyone has anything concrete to add to clear all this up and explain why, it would be greatly appreciated!EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 20:19, 20 May 2023 (UTC)