Talk:32 mm cabinetmaking system

Page name and contents are in conflict

I'm new at this and not quite sure how I should be approaching/doing it. System 32 is the name of Hetich's 32mm system. While this page includes information that applies to all 32mm systems, some of the information provided is specific to System 32 and does not apply to the other mentioned/referenced 32mm Systems. LR32 is a hole drilling jig that can be used to make 32mm system cabinets, it is not the the name of any published 32mm system.

System 32 is a 32mm system which is a subset of frameless cabinetry. Currently Cabinet making points to the rather broad Cabinetry which includes a Types of cabinetry topic which links to frameless construction... which in turn is a furniture-stub and Woodworking-stub, most confusing. Keeping the translated page makes sense, but the current contents of this page belongs on a page with a more appropriate title. I don't know if it should be an expansion of the frameless stub, a new stub, or? Dalrun (talk) 23:40, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

• Welcome to Wikipedia! I can help you get used to the process and rules around here, and specifically with this topic. First, each new topic, such as yours, on a talk page, should have a heading (preceded and followed by two equal signs, if editing in text mode). I've added one for you, but feel free to change it. You can do this most easily on a talk page by clicking the "New section" button.
  • Second, Wikipedia has rules for adding, changing, and removing content. All content must be verifiable, and when it's likely to be challenged or when there are differing viewpoints, that verification must be documented with a reference (citation) of a reliable source. For example:
    • It's possible that your statement of System 32 being only the name of Hetich's system, most all of the citations in the article say it is the generic name. Also, one of those citations of C. Carroll adams content states that LR32 is also a generic name for the system (even though it is currently used as a brand by Festool, going back to when he was first reading about the development of the System 32 standard.
  • Links to other Wikipedia articles are encouraged. For example, based on your comment about frameless cabinetry, I've added a link to the appropriate Wikipedia article, and also linked that article to this one.
  • Might you be able to find additional references for the other frameless systems, such as System 25? One of the sources above (Carroll) states that System 32 was developed as an international standard, but is currently unable to locate the original standards development documents he was involved in during the 1940s. I suspect that the original standard included both System 32 and System 25, but I have been unable to find documentation of that belief.
  • I do disagree with your belief that the content of this article should have a different title or be placed elsewhere. In particular, IKEA's use of the system makes it so prominent as to deserve an article. If documentation of it being just one of several parts of one standard (including holes on 32 mm and 25 mm centers, for example), then I would support changing its name to that standard). PetesGuide (talk) (K6WEB) 17:34, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

The original article is about System 32. A key aspect that differentiates System (Varianta) 32 from all other 32mm systems (except Sys32+, an extension of System 32) is "Distance of the holes for the top and bottom is half the plate thickness" (added since you did the translation). Of the listed advantages of System 32, only the last (rows a multiple of 32mm apart) applies to all 32mm systems (its a rule, not an advantage). I would be surprised if any of the books in your Bibliography even mentions System 32... Jim Christ uses "32-mm system" (e.g. pg 53), Danny Proulx has a chapter named 32mm System Design (pg 36) and first uses "32mm system" on page 5... which includes a mention of Hettich's System 32 being the first 32mm system.

Do a search on any of your sources (excepting Hetich's) and try and find any generic mention of "System 32". I also suggest you try finding any reference (excepting C. Carrol's) of a 32mm system called LR32... In a sense it really doesn't matter, any searching or reading will result in the realization that "32mm system" has been, by far, the most common generic name for at least the last 20 years. Woodweb has had a lot of 32mm discussions over the years, try searching the Woodweb Knowledgebase... Three out of four "System 32" posts that I found were mine, the fourth was actually a reference to Blum's Process 32 (name mix-up). It sounds like you want this to be a generic page in which case the title, and some of the content, is absolutely incorrect... The only System 25 I know of is a metal shelving system (if you'd read about the history of the 32mm system, you would know that a 25mm cabinetmaking system was not a possibility). The only 32mm standards are based on hardware (e.g. hinge plate and drawer slide) hole spacing; rows of holes 32mm apart, the first row 37mm from the front and all others (typically 1 or 2) some multiple of 32mm behind the first. Dave Lers AKA Dalrun (talk) 01:07, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

This is good information, and I didn't realize you were the author of one of the sources I researched and used. Cool. Let me dig into the sources you posted, and then we can discuss this more. I'm also going to dig into the trademark database, to see what it has on the topic. I'm leaning towards starting sections for each branded version of the system, developing that for a bit, and then seeing what name that corpus might lead us to.PetesGuide (talk) (K6WEB) 19:28, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

The corpus already exists in your Bibliography, References and External links (the point of my previous post). While most may not be easily accessible, e.g. 32mm Cabinets, Fine Woodworking Nov/Dec '87 ("cabinetmaking process known as the 32mm system", pg 57), I can supply at least a handful more if it would help. Logic alone would suggest not using a system specific name to describe a family of systems. That you would even question what I have taken for granted for almost 30 years just blows my mind, but after looking at the Festool forum I can see where you are coming from. What do I need to do to convince you that the Festool forum is a lousy source? While there are many useful bits of information, like most forums, most of it is imprecise and incomplete.

Would it help if it was a Festool source: The 32mm System and the Festool Hole Guide (32mm system: 13, System 32: 0)? It is an interesting source in that it says "FYI, the ~41.5mm dimension shown here is not a standard even with 19mm thick stock". It just so happens that it is a System 32 specific standard (half panel thickness start hole, 9.5 + 32 = 41.5). That standard is described in your Program Overview: System 32 External link. That standard separates System 32 from all other 32mm systems.

It is a very important distinction because System 32 can only be used to make half overlay 32mm system cabinetry (VS the more common full overlay). C. Carrol recognizes this distinction: Re: LR 32: 16 up and out or 32 up and out? "The current end stops do have a 9.5mm setting. That is half of 19mm, a very common European plywood thickness. In Euro frameless cabinet design a popular door is a half-overlap. inset 9.5mm.". C. Carrol's imprecise and incomplete posts, though not uncommon on forums, are unfortunate; 19mm is also a very common US plywood thickness (.748"), the "half-overlap" is actually 8mm and the reveal is 11mm (when using 3mm gaps, 8 + 3 + 8 = 19).

It's incredibly unfortunate that someone who knows what half overlay 32mm system cabinets are (few do) would use the term System 32 generically. The problem is compounded when he uses it to describe full overlay cabinets Re: Lr 32 system "Under System 32 all cabinet sides were multiples of 32mm." Who knows if he's talking about the '93 Process 32, True 32, or what. The only 32mm system cabinet that can be built with sides that are a multiple of 32mm tall is full overlay. System 32 panels are a multiple of 32mm plus panel thickness tall and can only be used to build half overlay (or inset) 32mm system cabinetry. Dalrun (talk) 20:47, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

@Dalrun: I've only skimmed part of your response, but wanted to ping you so you didn't think I'd dropped this. Working on something else that needs my full attention; will look at this completely later this coming week. If you haven't already addressed this in your comments, can you find any references that support or refute Carrol's viewpoint that LR32 was a generic name from the earliest days of the system's development? I'm going to read everything you point me to, but also want to dive deeper on that point.PetesGuide (talk) (K6WEB) 00:23, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

As I said in my first post LR32 "is not the the name of any published 32mm system". The Festool manual calls it a hole drilling system (no mention of any cabinetmaking system). The mention of "Lochreihen" in your source is in reference to what the LR in the jig name stands for (not C. Carrol's claims). Your source also says "the cabinet system is commonly referred to as the 32 mm system.". C. Carrol makes a lot of unsupported claims (e.g. 50's standards), some are just plain wrong (e.g. his Blum comments). While I can prove "32mm system" without a shadow of doubt (I shouldn't have to), I cannot prove the system existed prior to the 80's. Hettich claims earlier than '71, but the hardware doesn't seem to have existed until the 80's and Hettich didn't trademark "Hettich System 32" until '84 (System 32) Dalrun (talk) 15:37, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Sorry about the delay in following up; I had a bunch of other things I had to do first. (Note: my comments in this post are being written as I go through the whole thread from the top, and while I'm editing, so as to capture my intent in the edits.)

• Reading https://www.hettich.com/fileadmin/content/mediathek/TA_2011_02_en_CA.pdf, I don't get the impression that Hittich is claiming "System 32" as their name, but describe it as the "international standard".
• However, Hittich USA does have a trademark on the name: http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4805:ggw81.2.4
• Ahh! I'm probably going to link to https://davelers.com/32mm/Systems/ on a future edit and incorporate some of the info there, once I make a pass or two at restructuring the article. Cool stuff there. Not sure why I didn't find it before.
• OK, after reading this whole thread again, I now agree with your statements and desire for a generic name. I'm going to change the name to "32 mm cabinetmaking system". Note the space before the mm, as per BPIM and Wikipedia styles. PetesGuide (talk) (K6WEB) 19:00, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Improvements needed after page move

@Dalrun:, I've restructured the content after moving the page, for better flow and to make appropriate locations for the other changes you're suggesting. Based on the current state, what else do you think needs to be done? Here's my starting list:

• A good description of the various concepts and terms needed to understand the systems, including "plate thickness", "balanced" vs. "unbalanced", "half overlay" vs. "overlay", "half-overlap", etc.
• Among all of the variants you describe or know of, is there one group that can be considered the original or true native version, or deserves to be? I'd guess at only those that use multiples of 32 mm for other than just the vertical hole layout, right? What else is implied by that; full overlay? PetesGuide (talk) (K6WEB) 19:21, 4 July 2018 (UTC)