Talk:2014 Marysville Pilchuck High School shooting

Perpetrator rumors

A student, initials J. F., was INAPPROPRIATELY named as the perpetrator of the crime in early editing based purely on tweets made by school students, prior to official identification of the shooter.

Please do NOT identify anyone as the perpetrator of this crime until an official identification is made by police.

66.8.168.10 (talk) 20:24, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

4 non-fatal wounds? No

In reports it's mentioned that there are 3 people who are in a very critical condition with shots to their heads. No one said they were non-fatal injuries.--Chamith (talk) 03:53, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

If they are ultimately fatalities as a result of injuries received in the shooting, the information in the infobox will be updated to reflect that. The infobox reflects the current status as known. Dwpaul ^Talk 03:56, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

By ultimate injuries do you mean death? Because according to the reports they are already fatally injured.--Chamith (talk) 04:03, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

The infobox civilian attack template contains a field called injuries, which contains the information that appears next to the label "non-fatal injuries". The field that precedes it is fatalities (displayed as Deaths). So unless someone has died, we will see them (or the count of them) listed in the infobox as "non-fatal injuries". There is no field in the template for "not yet dead but expected to die of their injuries", and this would not be acceptable anyway because it requires speculation. Dwpaul ^Talk 04:09, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Age

Is the kid age 14 or 15? The article states both, at present. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:18, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Jaylen Fryberg is described as being 14 years old per sources. Of the victims, Nate Hatch is 14 and Andrew Fryberg (Jaylen's cousin) is 15. Dwpaul ^Talk 04:24, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, a number of mainstream news sources identify the perpetrator as 15 years old, and many more mention his instagram posting of about three months ago about getting a rifle from his parents as a birthday present. The evidence seems to lean toward 15 as his age.Riversong (talk) 19:45, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, ABCNews and the Seattle Times are now saying J.Fryberg was 15, while the latest NBCNews.com and CNN reports do not say at all (perhaps because there was confusion on this question). Dwpaul ^Talk 20:31, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Seattle Times?

at the school told The Seattle Times that the "shooter was angry at a girl. Is Seattle times really necessary in that sentence? Feels like reading a news report.-Chamith (talk) 04:52, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Murder and suicide

Murder is a legal finding by a court. Had the perpetrator survived and been prosecuted, one outcome is that he might be found legally insane and hence not guilty of murder. All we know for now is that a homicide occurred, not a murder.

Likewise, there is an alternative claim that the perp was shot in the neck while wrestling with a teacher in the cafeteria rather than committing suicide. Hence, suicide also cannot be asserted at this time. 124.169.154.223 (talk) 05:16, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

@124.169.154.223:, It's obvious that it's a murder and suicide, Why do you keep removing that?.Not everything needs references. --Chamith (talk) 05:22, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I suggest you read the above post. It's not at all "obvious". Perhaps better inform yourself? 124.169.154.223 (talk) 05:27, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

This is so pathetic. All the other articles like Virginia Tech massacre are considered murder in the categories and everywhere else on the Internet, and by humanity. These kids on Wikipedia who come and make these changes are annoying. Cyanidethistles (talk) 05:56, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Suck it up princess. Better yet, suck your thistles. 124.169.154.223 (talk) 10:52, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

A fine argument. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 14:05, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

"Murder" means a homicide adjudicated by proper authority as criminally motivated. I see that US law blogs make the distinction in reporting on-going cases. I notice the British home office constantly revises British homicide stats based on court adjudications; for instance, a finding of self-defense in a homicide will remove it from the murder stats. I also read a paper by a Milwaukee medical examiner on the difference between the number of M.E. findings of homicide and of D.A. office charges/prosecutions for murder. In this case, the "suicide" is increasingly looking like he accidentally killed himself as evidence comes in. Wikipedia should report what reliable sources say the authorities charge or the judicial system decides. --Naaman Brown (talk) 14:14, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Murder and homicide?

How is it possible for something to be called a homicide and not murder, when it's technically the same thing? Also, if this shooting is being "classified" as homicide and not murder (which the news articles don't seem to be indicating on), then shouldn't all mass shootings be referred to as such? Because they're all referred to as murder, even the shootings that are similar in nature to this one. Libertarian12111971 (talk) 05:28, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

They are not the same thing. http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/homicide Dwpaul ^Talk 05:30, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

So how does it explain the fact that every other mass shooting article I see is categorized as murder in all applicable forms? Libertarian12111971 (talk) 05:33, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Until a court of law (or an inquest and/or a coroner, in some jurisdictions) makes a determination that a murder has occurred, death intentionally caused by another is homicide, not murder, since a murder by definition is a homicide without an affirmative defense. Until a case is brought, there is no opportunity to determine what defense may exist. As to other "mass shooting" articles, either there was some determination or the editors of those articles made the same error you have made. See WP:OTHERSTUFF. Dwpaul ^Talk 05:36, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

And when exactly does that determination from a court of law occur? Because every time these mass shootings occur and a suspect is identified, everyone already knows what happened, and there are no actual official determinations afterward. Libertarian12111971 (talk) 05:39, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Do you seriously believe "there are no actual official determinations afterward". Just because the perp is dead it's all over red rover? Of course there will be investigations and findings. 124.169.154.223 (talk) 05:43, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

"Everybody here" doesn't yet know what happened, as challenges to several of your edits have shown, and we are not an investigative body. Wait for an official statement that even identifies Fryberg as the shooter, much less a murderer. Dwpaul ^Talk 05:45, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

FINE! But I'm still not convinced. >:( Libertarian12111971 (talk) 05:46, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

For what it's worth, an event does not need an official court verdict in order to be called a "murder". That makes no sense. Yes, the word "murder" has a legal definition. It also has a common everyday usage (i.e., not the technical legal definition). Wikipedia is concerned with the latter, not the former. And, furthermore, we simply parrot whatever the RS's are calling the event. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 09:32, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Still searching for a reliable source that calls it murder. WWGB (talk) 14:20, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Not to reopen this debate, but the current edition of the Associated Press Stylebook, generally considered a highly respected guide for journalists, makes very clear the distinction between homicide and murder, and indicates the latter term should never be used without the filing of formal charges and/or a judicial finding. Unfortunately, the Stylebook is a paid publication, so I cannot link directly to it, but here is a brief summary of some of its recommendations on terms used in crime stories which repeats the same advice. So any of our reliable sources which follow accepted journalistic practices will not refer to the deaths as a result of this incident as murders until there is some legal finding, and thus we should not either. Dwpaul ^Talk 00:11, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

We can always change it to murder later if that's what the RSs use. Until then, we can leave it as homicide. It doesn't really make much of a difference in this case, as the guy isn't going to stand trial for it. Titanium Dragon (talk) 00:14, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Murder categories

What is the point of removing them, when is it legally established? No other article has ever removed the categories. It is just a waste of everyone's time. When it is legally established the person who removed them should put them back in. Don't expect others to fix your edits. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 14:00, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Legally established? By whom? WWGB (talk) 14:12, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Idk, in the page history the person who removed the categories said it needs to be legally established or something? WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 14:25, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Not worthy of an article?

I am not sure this is worthy of an article.

School shootings are extremely common. It does get some news coverage but not really lasting coverage. How about the school shootings of 1998? Remember them? No.

Instead, there could be mention of the shooting in the article about the school or the city of Marysville.

EatingGlassIsBad (talk) 15:54, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually there are articles on ones in 1998, Kip Kinkel and Westside Middle School massacre for example and you can't really compare the nonstop coverage of today to 1998. Either way, this article couldn't be redirected because there is too much information. The 2013 Arapahoe High School shooting had an article for like nine days until it got redirected (here is the final version of that article [1]). There wasn't as much information to gather there though. I wouldn't care about this article being redirected but it is too big. WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 16:30, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

To much information? How much of it is encyclopedic? What it may boil down to is that in 2014, there was a shooting at the school, which resulted in 2 deaths (including the alleged shooter) and 4 injuries. End of story. This could be incorporated into the city's article. EatingGlassIsBad (talk) 17:21, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

If the event isn't notable anyone can nominate it for speedy deletion. But I don't think this article will be deleted because it has a high notability at the moment. Eventually, like all the other stories the interest will fade away--Chamith (talk) 16:40, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Indeed.WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 16:42, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Although the number of deaths is not a criteria for keeping an article, the fact that a second person has died (3, including the suspect), I tend to lean towards keeping the article. EatingGlassIsBad (talk) 15:19, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Possible article

Why not leave it as.... On October 24, 2014, a freshman student, Jaylen Fryberg, shot five other students, killing one, at Marysville Pilchuck High School before killing himself.[7]

Why is this so important (in the current article).... He fired at least eight shots,[5] shooting several students in a "calm, methodical way".[6] He then fired several more bullets outside of the school and reloaded at least once.[5][2][7][8] During the shooting, Fryberg was described by a witness as having "a blank stare" and "staring at the victims as he shot them".[9] He also appeared to be targeting only one table, where about ten students were seated.[3]

Washington Senator John McCoy said in a released statement, "I do know the family. We're all related in one shape or form. We live and work and play together."[16] Washington Governor Jay Inslee also said in a Twitter post regarding the shooting, "Like all of WA, Trudi and I have everyone at #MPHS in our hearts and prayers. Please take care of each other."[8]

EatingGlassIsBad (talk) 17:25, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

This isn't really a normal school shooting

Seeing as how the victims weren't random and were his cousins/friends, this incident could have easily happened at a friend's house or something. That wouldn't get as much coverage though because it didn't happen in a school. He probably did it at the school because he knew it would attract attention (or just because that is the place where his targets would be gathered). WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 16:19, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm just trying to discuss the incident in the context of being related to the school. It may have only happened at the school out of convenience and possible publicity. Anytime there is something labeled as a "school shooting" it is seen as worse than any other incident but this probably could have happened anywhere else. Just look at this for example[2], five people shot here as well and no national coverage.WikiOriginal-9 (talk) 16:41, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of the reasons why the shooter chose the school, the fact the shooting was at a school is highly significant because a) in the case of the vast majority of American families, they have no choice (in practical and economic terms) but to send their school-aged children to school for hours of every weekday, and b) we have always felt, or at least wanted to feel, that schools were "safe zones" where such things could not and would not happen to our children. So the fact the victims were known to the shooter and he could, perhaps, just as easily shot them at a family reunion is pretty meaningless. A shooting or other violent incident at a school will always be a notable event. Dwpaul ^Talk 18:14, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

We can always revisit the notability of the article later if it turns out not to actually be something of importance. Also, this is by far the most common type of shooting at a school, someone taking revenge on another student at school. Such things happen periodically, but sometimes they end up notable and sometimes they aren't. You just don't hear about the non-notable ones. Titanium Dragon (talk) 00:08, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Identification of victims

Is there any reason why we are identifying the wounded victims by name, yet not identifying the deceased female victim? I found that rather odd, and I am wondering if there is some legitimate reason behind it. Please advise. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 00:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes. "Authorities have not publicly identified the shooter or the student he killed." [3]. A few sources have identified the dead girl by name and are attributing the information to other students, but most are following accepted journalistic standards and withholding the victim's name until there is an official statement. However, multiple mainstream reliable sources have been reporting Fryberg's name. Dwpaul ^Talk 01:33, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. So, the authorities are "officially" releasing the names of the wounded, but not the names of the deceased. Is that the situation? (That seems odd, but I guess they have their reasons.) Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:03, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

That was the situation, but it is moot now, since the Seattle Times has named the deceased victim and another editor has added the name here. Dwpaul ^Talk 04:06, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 15:45, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Firearm source

Since the source of the firearm does eventually come up in articles like this, once it noted by investigators, I believe we should look out for that. A 40 cal beretta is by and large a "cop gun" in the US and there are apparently reservation reserve police in the family. Many states exempt law enforcement from the some of the access to minors laws, as well as many other laws applicable to US civil firearms owners.108.18.69.135 (talk) 05:14, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

If it is notable, we can make note of it once we find out. 206.125.92.246 (talk) 05:27, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Everett Herald editorial

This editorial published in the Everett, Washington Herald on Saturday 10/25/14 contains detailed background information on J. Fryberg and his family (much of which doesn't belong in this article, but some of which may eventually be useful for expansion). Dwpaul ^Talk 15:49, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Bomb threat

So I just found out that there was a bomb threat at Marysville Pilchuck High School. But it was a false alarm and nothing happened. Yet law enforcement swept the area. Should we mention this in the article? I don't see anything directly related to the shooting incident that's why I decided to ask on talk page first.

Source: Washington state school, scene of 2014 shooting, cleared after bomb threat

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