Talk:1st (United Kingdom) Division

Untitled

There may be some merit in combining this article with that entitled 1st Infantry Division (United Kingdom). The MoD [1] and regiments.org [2] both seem to see this division as a single division which had continuous existence from 1809 through WW1 (as an Infantry Division) and WW2 (as an Armoured Division). That way you get all the material together in one place in chronological order. Also it is consistent with articles about other Divisions. Please indicate your views. Dormskirk (talk) 21:52, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, 1st Infantry Division existed during World War II also, fighting in France in 1940, Tunisia in 1943 and Italy in 1944-45. 1st Armoured Division also fought in France in 1940, then in the Western Desert in 1942-43 and also in Italy in 1944. Trying to merge the two articles would be to conflate two formations with an entirely separate existence. The two web sites listed both confuse the issue by using the linkages from 1st Infantry Division from its conversion in the 1960's. HLGallon (talk) 18:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

thanks for this additional information - if the two formations had a separate but simultaneous existance then I agree we should not conflate them Dormskirk (talk) 18:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The 1st Armoured Division was created in 1939. On several occasions during the Second World War the 1st Infantry and 1st Armoured Division fought side by side: first at Dunkirk and then later during the North African and Italian Campaigns. At the end of the war, the 1st Armoured Division was disbanded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eddiespangle (talk • contribs) 20:58, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

"Battle of Tunis"?

Should the link to the Battle of Tunis in the second paragraph of the "Second World War" section instead link to Tunisia Campaign? Assemblany (talk) 02:55, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Nice one. I don't think 1st Armoured were around in 255BC!! Stephen Kirrage ^{talk - contribs} 10:00, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Just to double confirm the new name

http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/update/2014-07-18/1st-armoured-uk-division-formally-renamed/

Phd8511 (talk) 20:04, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Article titles are based on common usage among other things see WP:AT. The official name comes a long way down the list. That the UK is currently using an unusual format for divisional names does not mean that the Wikipedia article title should follow the same naming designation, particularly as the official name is new and is unlikely to appear in many third party sources, because the military histories which mention this division are unlikely to use this new format for the name. The British Army like many other armies has had a tradition for at least 100 years of writing names in a reverse order that they sort well in a card index or whatever: eg cost, great, large; coat, great, small; etc. Nut that does not mean Wikipedia has to name a British Army greatcoat that way.

So I am moving the page back to the normal format for a Wikipedia article tile where the dab extension is placed last and allows the pipe trick to work. -- PBS (talk) 12:41, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

As 1st Division (United Kingdom) currently redirects to 1st Infantry Division (United Kingdom) rather than move this article to 1st Division (United Kingdom) (and cause confusion) I have placed a hatnote on 1st Infantry Division (United Kingdom) to 1st Division (United Kingdom) (disambiguation). But in the long term I think the appropriate article titles needs to be considered. -- PBS (talk) 13:31, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Spare me your beliefs or wiki beliefs. This is the official and correct name. People call it 82nd Airborne Division even though it was just the 82nd Division. If you want to educate people this way, is is totally inaccurate.Phd8511 (talk) 09:50, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

French officer to join as deputy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/12143482/Sacre-Bleu-French-general-to-join-British-Army.html

Phd8511 (talk) 06:45, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

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new GOC

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/62472/data.pdf

Major-General Colin Weir.

Sammartinlai (talk) 09:00, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Additional source. https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/portadown-soldier-promoted-to-lead-top-british-army-division-37246476.html

Sammartinlai (talk) 12:32, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. Dormskirk (talk) 23:16, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Restructure

Cooee Cobbers, I am proposing that the article receives a slight overhaul in its structure to increase its cohesion. The proposal looks something like this:

1. Formation
2. Second World War
3. Postwar
4. Current history (1990–present)
5. Organisation
   1. Current
   2. Future
6. Battle order
   1. Second World War
   2. Afghanistan and Iraq
7. General Officers Commanding

This declutters the history section and allows for the narrative to flow. Though you could combine Organisation and Battle order together (not recommended). IronBattalion (talk) 05:36, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Division's history

There was an RFC to discuss potential restructures to this article and 1st Infantry Division (United Kingdom). However, the RFP ended without any consensus being reached. Rather than the info end-up being buried in the MILHIST archives, I have copied the named sources below, removed some of the editorials, and added at least one more (at the time of this initial edit).

Argument for the 1st (UK) Div having been founded in 1809

• The division:

  Twitter post stating the division celebrated Peninsular Day, when it was founded in 1809. Not just a birthday tweet, the divisional headquarter staff attended a service. (A regional news outlet reported a similar story the year prior)

  Wilson, P (1985) The First Division 1809-1985: A Short Illustrated History, 1st Armoured Division, Viersen

  Wilson, P (1993?) The First Division 1809-1993: An Illustrated History (2nd Edition), 1st Division, Hereford?

• The British Army's website:

  Current version (2022)

  2007 version

  2001 version, oldest available that I was able to locate.

• NATO's Allied Rapid Reaction Corps website:

  [3]

• Imperial War Museum:

  [4]

  [5]

• Army Notes, Royal United Services Institution journal:

  States that the 1st Division was disbanded in the UK in June 1960, the title was transferred to be used within BAOR, and the 5th Division was renamed the 1st Division

• The London Gazette:

  Gregson was appointed Maj-Gen of 1 Infantry Division in 1955

  Gregson relinquishes 1 Division in 1959, Hobbs appointed to command of 1 Division

  Hobbs relinquishes command of 1 Division in June 1960, and Jolly takes command of 1 Division in July

• Various secondary sources:

  Lord and Watson, The Royal Corps of Signals, p. 25

  Watson and Rinaldi, The British Army in Germany: An Organizational History 1947-2004, a self-published source/does not meet WP:RS

  McNish, Messenger, Bray (2000), Iron Division: The History of the 3rd Division 1809-2000, p. 151

  A Royal Engineer association newsletter, page 7

• Colin Mackie:

  List of commanding officers from 1902 to present, does not meet WP:RS in my opinion, although author has been awarded for the lists that he has created, and his work are cited all over the wiki including this article. One notes that despite Mackie being the primary source for the GOC list in this article, it does not appear that the article followed his listings (i.e. He lists all 1st Inf Div, 1st Div, and 1st (UK) Div GOCs together.

Argument for the 1st (UK) Div having been founded in ~1940

• Charles Heyman

  Heyman is a defense analyst and a retired British Army major. His regularly updated guide on the British Army (example) and websites associated with him, state that the current division was formed in 1940. This argument has been made since as far back as at least the 1997/8 edition of his work.

Other

• General consensus is that the 1st Armoured Division was founded in 1937 as the Mobile Division, and renamed in 1940 to the 1st Armoured Division. Per Joslen, the compiler of the official work on the British order of battle during the Second World War, the 1st Armoured Division was disbanded in 1945 prior to the end of the war.
• A new 1st Armoured Division was formed in 1946, when the 6th Armoured Division (United Kingdom) was redesignated as such, while based in Trieste. It was then dispatched to Palestine, and disbanded in 1947. See Lord, Watson, The Royal Corps of Signals, p. 36
• The 1st Infantry Division was renamed the 1st Division in the late 1950s. It was disbanded in England in June 1960.
• The same month, the 5th Division - based in Germany - was renumbered as the 1st Division.
• In the 1970s, the 1st Division became the 1st Armoured Division.
• The 1st Armoured Division was disbanded and reformed in 1992/3. The division was renamed in 2014 to 1st (UK) Div.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 08:46, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Additional sources (as found)

• Armed Forces, I. Allan Limited and the Royal United Services Institute for Defence Studies., 1984, p. 47: "... the Division's newly reinstated emblem of a charging rhinoceros. For many years the Divisional emblem has been a red triangle, originally the emblem of the 1st Division. However, the 1st Division became the 1st Armoured Division in 1978, and it was decided recently that the charging rhino - symbol of the WW2 1st Armoured Division — should be re-adopted. The new emblem now incorporates both symbols".EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:26, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
• "Headquarters 1st Division at Colchester ... is to be disbanded on July 1. The title 1st Division is not, however, to be lost to the Army, as it will be transferred to the present 5th Division in Germany." It then briefly outlines the lack of a need for a second divisional HQ in the UK.
• "The 5th Division-formed under wellington in the Peninsular War-was today redesignated the 1st Division...and now becomes the British Army's senior division." This position was countered by a write-in a few days later: "In fact, no change of title can alter the seniority of a formation of unit. Seniority depends on the length of unbroken service, not on the title." Signed off by M.E.S. Laws. A couple of google searches seem to indicate this may be a Lt-Col who has wrote some books on the Royal Artillery, so potentially able to present the insider view.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 13:45, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

References