Talk:1942 in Wales

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Wales is the best country in the world because of the views and rugby team!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.176.52 (talk • contribs)

Events

Removed this from the article (to here, in case I am wrong)

Aneurin Bevan founds the political journal Tribune

since Tribune was founded in 1937 and Bevan, while an early editor, was not AFAIK a founder. -- Picapica (talk) 06:52, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Underground Caves

@Deb: Could you tell me what an above ground cavern looks like in a quarry? Leitmotiv (talk) 17:43, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

• Maybe like this? Deb (talk) 18:19, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

@Deb: Okay, can you tell me in that picture what that substance is on the roof of the cave? Leitmotiv (talk) 00:54, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

No idea. Why would you expect me to know? Deb (talk) 11:29, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

@Deb: Don't play stupid. A disingenuous argument will look like obstruction instead of improving the article. It appears to be rock of one kind or another is on the ceiling, which in that case, it's underground. Leitmotiv (talk) 17:17, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Don't play stupid. Rock isn't ground. Deb (talk) 17:20, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

@Deb:So we've established that it's rock. Now when you are on the surface standing on that same rock, what are you standing on? Leitmotiv (talk) 17:54, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

You can't stand on a rock face. I don't see what you are trying to achieve here. I see a difference between a cavern created by cutting into a rock and a cavern that is below ground level. I don't know whether the caverns at Croesor were man-made or natural or how far below the ground they may have been, and I don't think you really know either. If you do, please say so. Deb (talk) 18:02, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

You're still being disingenuous. A rock face is a vertical plane. Is the whole cave under this flat plane? No. We're dealing with the third dimension. To answer your question, quarries deal with rock. Below that rock you may find caves. It's clear there is no distinction needed to differentiate this cave from a cave in the sky. Leitmotiv (talk) 18:29, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

@Deb: Well, if that's all you have is a photo of a quarry cave this is clearly underground, I don't see any reason not to revert. You haven't supplied how this cave is above ground or even beside the ground, or perhaps why this cave needs distinction. Are there other caves that are above ground in the article with which the reader can be confused with? There's no need to belittle the reader's intelligence. It's pretty well understood all caves are under the ground. Leitmotiv (talk) 01:27, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

@Deb: Can't believe I missed your statement: you don't know how far "below the ground" the caves may be. So it's settled. They're below the ground? Seems like you are in agreement that they're below ground, therefore it's redundant to say they're underground. Leitmotiv (talk) 04:39, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

For pity's sake, twisting what I said is not going to work. The way I see it, and I believe the way most people see it, is that if you are standing on the ground and you can see a cavern halfway up a rock face, it's not underground. If you are standing on the ground and you go down under the ground and find a cavern, that's underground. Moreover, the source says these particular caverns are underground, and I don't see any reason to remove that important detail. Deb (talk) 06:52, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

@Deb:Stop being so dramatic, they're your words. It must be fun to do mental gymnastics. You seem inclined to assume the reader is stupid, by reminding them every single time that a cave is underground. They get that. What you fail to get, is that if there was a cave in a mountainside, it may be prudent to point that out for contextual reasons. But this article lacks that distinction. You can sleep well at night knowing this cave is under the ground (and not in the sky); I'll let you have your redundant cave locus.

For the record, you're wrong: most people don't agree that a mountainside cave is not under the ground. Do you see the words you typed? While it is true that it's in the mountainside, that doesn't make it not underground. Mental gymnastics indeed. By this logic, if I was on top of said mountain, that would disqualify it from being underground because it's strictly in a mountain. And when I stare at the ceiling of the cave in the quarry, somehow that isn't the underside of the ground. Perhaps adjacent to it, if I follow your previous argument? That's what I get for entertaining someone playing dumb and being disingenuous from the start. We should all expect more from experienced wikipedians, and if we did, we might get different responses than the ones in this thread. Try not to be so obtuse next time in the face of change. Cheerio! Leitmotiv (talk) 07:29, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

When I look at wikipedia readers, I see ordinary people with a normal understanding, not idiots who need to be educated by a self-appointed expert. Deb (talk) 07:38, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Your edits disagree. Leitmotiv (talk) 18:35, 12 October 2019 (UTC)