Talk:Zionism

Role in Arab-Israeli Conflict

This added section appears simply to be taken from only one source (political activist Norman Finkelstein). Even the quotations from Ben-Gurion and Morris are merely taken from Finkelstein and represent his selections and interpretations of their words.

Modern Zionism

"Following the establishment of the modern state of Israel, Zionism became an ideology that supports the development and protection of the State of Israel as a Jewish state." this isn't an accurate definition of modern Zionism. Some varying definitions: the national ideology of Israel Vox Anyone has others that could be considered? Makeandtoss (talk) 20:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Very interestingly Pappe calls Zionism a state ideology which I personally think is a perfect characterization, that is certainly better and more reflective of reality than the “development and protection of Israel.” Any other sources have mentioned similar definitions? Makeandtoss (talk) 20:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Where did you find this? DMH223344 (talk) 22:37, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm only just starting to flip through the book, but "Zionism: an emotional state" by Penslar and the citations within looks like it could be useful here. DMH223344 (talk) 17:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

It was a podcast so not very relevant, should have been clearer. But is still in my opinion a perfect definition, not sure yet if it is supported by RS or not. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:51, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

"Political ideology" is very well represented in sources. "Development and protection" seems not quite right, the modern idea as I understand it is that Jews are a people or a nation and the State is supposed to be their "home", a sort of Jewish nationalism. Selfstudier (talk) 10:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

That sounds right, and is consistent historically as well. If you have specific sources I would appreciate if you could share. No need for page numbers. DMH223344 (talk) 14:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

There have been different sorts of Zionism over the years, supposedly secular, the version with a religious overlay has a hold these days. Selfstudier (talk) 14:27, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

On sourcing, idk where to start, there is plenty of it around, maybe start with Beyond the Nation-State: The Zionist Political Imagination from Pinsker to Ben-Gurion - Dmitry Shumsky Intro and conclusions. Selfstudier (talk) 14:34, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Saw that you added a vox citation for this. The author is zach beauchamp who also once wrote in vox that there is a bridge for palestinians to travel between the west bank and gaza. I don't think we should cite his work on this topic. DMH223344 (talk) 13:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Settler colonialism

Why is settler colonialism mentioned as a criticism of Zionism rather than how it is defined? It seems even Israeli historian Benny Morris has labelled it as such, and that its early proponents understood it as such. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed the description as a settler colonialist project should not be limited to the criticism section. DMH223344 (talk) 13:35, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Especially because before it went out of date, early Zionists explicitly referred to their ideology as colonial The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 14:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I also agree settler colonialism shouldn't be limited to the criticism section. But remember that "colonial" is not the same thing as "settler colonial"; Zionists referred to themselves as colonial, not settler colonial. Levivich (talk) 14:51, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

They did refer to themselves as settlers though. DMH223344 (talk) 16:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes and that's where confusion comes in. They described themselves as settlers and their venture as colonialism, but that is not an admission that Zionism is settler colonialism. Settler colonialism is a specific theory developed by Patrick Wolfe and others, and popularized in his 2006 paper, it's a term of art. People saying "we are settlers and colonists" 100 years before that aren't talking about Patrick Wolfe's theory; today, people who talk about settler colonialism are talking about Wolfe's theory. What I'm saying is we shouldn't confuse the words for the concept.

In fact, the reality is sort of the reverse: it's not that Zionists thought of themselves as settler-colonialists and Wolfe documented it; it's more the opposite, Wolfe used the term "settler colonialism" to describe Zionism and other similar colonialism (e.g. USA, Europe) and to distinguish it from "regular" or traditional colonialism (the non-settling kind of colonialism). Because settler colonialism is a 21st-century concept, 19th-century uses of the words "settler" and "colonialism," even used together, are not and cannot be a reference to the 21st-century concept.

BTW, to be clear, that doesn't mean Zionism isn't settler colonialism, it just means that Zionists couldn't have described themselves as settler colonialists because the concept had not been invented yet. Can't use 19th-century writing as an admission of a 21st-century concept. Levivich (talk) 17:16, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I see, was not aware of that. Would it then be more technical to simply refer to it as “colonial” in this case? The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:29, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I think so. There was discussion about this recently on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict page, and consensus to refer to Zionism as both "immigration" and "colonization", and Zionists as both "immigrants" and "settlers", because sources seem to use all that language interchangeably. Levivich (talk) 13:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Immigrants? What type of immigrant starts a revolution and creates a political regime supported by its own military forces? Dimadick (talk) 15:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Not quite like that and the British/allied powers helped things along. Selfstudier (talk) 15:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I think Jews who moved to Palestine/Israel were all "settlers" before 1948 and "immigrants" after 1948, but the sources don't agree with me. Levivich (talk) 15:51, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

However, under current terminology settlers who seek to colonize and harbour the intent to displace the local population are settler colonialists, not conventional colonialists, who preeminently seek to extract resources. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I actually disagree with the dependence on Wolfe's theory of settler colonialism especially considering there are other conceptions of settler colonialism. See Englert:

For instance, in explaining the difference between settler and franchise colonies, Wolfe wrote: ‘In contrast to the kind of colonial formation that Cabral or Fanon confronted, settler colonies were not primarily established to extract surplus value from indigenous labour. Rather, they are premised on displacing indigenes from (or replacing them on) the land.’24 A striking issue with this formulation is that Algeria – the colonial formation confronted by Fanon – was a French settler colony. Similarly, Veracini, in his Settler Colonialism: A Theoretical Overview, writes, ‘while the suppression of indigenous and exogenous alterities characterises both colonial and settler colonial formations, the former can be summarised as domination for the purpose of exploitation, the latter as domination for the purpose of transfer.’

Which also explains that there are fundamental aspects of settler vs franchise colonialism that can apply, even if we don't take eg Wolfe's theory exactly. DMH223344 (talk) 15:56, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The diverging colonial approaches seem pretty well understood in the literature, regardless of the precise terminology used. It seems clear that the concept preceded the term, just as the concept of colonialism in general preceded 20th-century colonial studies. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Some sources referring to Zionism as settler-colonialism:

Masalha:

Zionist settler-colonialism is at the heart of the conflict in Palestine; settler-colonialism is a structure not an episode (Wolfe 2006). Zionist settler-colonialism is deeply rooted in European colonialism. Ignoring the existence and rights of indigenous peoples, British colonialists often saw large parts of the earth as terra nullius, ‘nobody’s land’. This (originally Roman legal) expression was used to describe territory which was not subject to the sovereignty of any European state – sovereignty over territory which is terra nullius may be acquired through occupation and/or settler-colonisation.

Cleveland:

Zionism was a settler colonial movement, very much like the movement of other Europeans who moved to the Americas, parts of Africa as well as Australia and New Zealand.

Pappe:

Zionism as a settler colonial movement was able to colonize Palestine almost in its entirety regardless of its demographic minority.

Shlaim:

The Zionist movement was a settler-colonial movement, which had its roots in late nineteenth-century Europe, as a response to the problem of European antisemitism.

DMH223344 (talk) 16:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

You are quoting sources famously known for their critical view of Zionism, they do not represent the mainstream view of the movement. HaOfa (talk) 17:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

You can add Al-Haq and 90 Palestinian and international organisations that "sent a joint submission to the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory examining Zionist settler colonialism and apartheid as the root causes of Israel’s ongoing violations of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people."

Not entirely sure what you mean by "mainstream" (or when) but the settler colonial paradigm is clearly a significant view that cannot be blithely dismissed. Selfstudier (talk) 17:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudier, you seem like an experienced editor, and at this point I suppose it should be clear that advocacy organizations are not reliable sources. I also agree with the above: Ilan Pappe, Nur Masalha, and Avi Shlaim are known for their critical analysis, often presenting fringe views, of Zionism and Israel. Pappe himself was a central figure in Hadash, a far-left party in Israel, and multiple reliable sources label him a controversial figure. I see no reason to change the current lead, which accurately portrays the settler-colonialist view as a critical view. I'm really noticing more and more of these fringe views taking center stage in these articles, and honestly, it's starting to be really concerning. ABHammad (talk) 07:14, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

"Critical analysis" is a set term that doesn't mean what I think you think it does; "critical analysis" means that their efforts are thorough and in-depth, and it's a compliment. Critical analysis is exactly what we would want here. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:38, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

You understood what I meant. ABHammad (talk) 07:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but the reason why "critical analysis" contains the word "critical" is because the obvious truth that only true "critics" tend to provide the most thorough, in-depth and no-holds barred analysis. In the analysis and assessment of an ideology, ideological insiders are hardly going to provide the most fullsome or critical analysis. Who would you have do the analysis here? What's the mainstream, and how do you define it? Iskandar323 (talk) 08:31, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, the "critical" in "critical analysis" is a reference to critical thinking, not criticism. Levivich (talk) 15:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

You are at liberty to add contradictory sourcing, dismissing sourcing that you don't like as fringe is insufficient. If it is fringe, then finding a reliable source saying that should be possible. Selfstudier (talk) 09:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

This is Levivich comment from Nakba talk page:

"FYI see sources/quotes at Talk:Zionism as settler colonialism#Sources, including this one: Pappe 2020 (free): Still, despite a body of scholarship and research that frames the Zionist movement as a settler-colonial project—including the relatively new Settler Colonial Studies, a journal that, at this writing, has already devoted two special issues to Palestine—such a depiction is not accepted in mainstream academia (or the media generally). By and large, Israel/Palestine is still perceived as a conflict between two national movements that are equally responsible for violence—one of them a Western-style democracy that occasionally resorts to excessive power, and the other an Arab society endowed with a violent political culture. Of course there are other views (and maybe even a more recent one from Pappe, idk), but the complications are that: some RS say it's colonialism, some say it's settler-colonialism, some say neither, some say it was one of those things at some points in time and another one at other points in time, some say it's a mixture, etc."

So Pappe thinks it is but at least in 2020 admits it is not "mainstream". It is still a significant view though and is not anyway a criticism as such, it's a description.

Sabbagh-Khoury (2022) says "For now, the settler colonial paradigm is the work of a relatively small group of scholars, but their numbers are increasing rapidly, in part because it is becoming a project of collective study carried out in cooperation with international scholars, not the theoretical occupation of few isolated individuals." Clearly not fringe. Selfstudier (talk) 12:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Your quote explicitly says "small group of scholars" (with the rest all crystal ball) and then you say "clearly not fringe". What's the point in quoting a source if you're ignoring what it says? HaOfa (talk) 08:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

And what is the point in ignoring the rest of the sentence? Selfstudier (talk) 09:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Crystal ball claims, the current situation is what it is, a small group of scholars promoting this view. It totally doesn't matter if there is a cooperation with international scholars (as opposed to Palestinian ones), they could be part of a fringe group as well.

Pappe is a former politician associated with a far-left group who openly identifies as anti-Zionist, while he is entitled to his opinions, his stance doesn't necessarily indicate a mainstream following. There's zero base for this whole thing... HaOfa (talk) 09:08, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

You are aware that the article Zionism as settler colonialism exists? In other words, it is a notable subject. Selfstudier (talk) 09:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Notable, maybe, but again that doesn't change the fact it is a fringe view. There is an article on Modern flat Earth beliefs, does that make it a mainstream view? HaOfa (talk) 09:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

No, it means that it is a notable subject, that is, there is a sufficiency of reliable sources dealing with the topic. I'm still waiting for anyone with an actual source saying that ZaSC is fringe as opposed to merely expressing their own opinion that it is. Selfstudier (talk) 09:14, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

this is unwise, when a theory is fringe, you won't find many sources that would say it is fringe - they would just ignore it. In this way we will just perpetuate fringe views. HaOfa (talk) 09:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Poppycock. Selfstudier (talk) 09:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Wolfe's seminal 2006 paper on this has 7,500+ Google scholar cites. "Fringe"? Lol. Levivich (talk) 13:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Who said we are quoting what the movement says about itself? We are quoting what reliable sources are saying; reliable sources by scholars. Pappe and Shlaim are two of the most prominent historians in the field and can certainly not be dismissed as "fringe". Makeandtoss (talk) 14:26, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Non Jewish Support

I think this section needs more ideological variety, one example is Ho Chi Minh who frequently communicated with Ben-Gurion as shown here; [1] Another example is Civil rights Icon Bayard Rustin; [2], [3]https://www.jns.org/rustin-sowell-and-renewing-black-jewish-relations/

I am sure there are many others but I have to go, and It would be hard to find several at the current moment. Thank you for your patience.

You should also include Ber Borochov and Meir Vilner in the variants section, for the rare Communist Zionism. Emma Lazarus was also a Zionist.

Two more sources for Kurds and Mandeanism; 70.23.5.67 (talk) 12:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

https://escholarship.org/content/qt2ds1052b/qt2ds1052b_noSplash_b0b0087d30def88f05e48b5dc022997b.pdf?t=py0wm5 I meant this 70.23.5.67 (talk) 12:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Not done, unclear, please make edit requests in the form change X to Y, sourced appropriately.Selfstudier (talk) 11:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

source 219 is not a good source

it is said that Napoleon Bonaparte advocated for zionism. and the source is just an article at haaretz with a quote of theodor herzl, which slightly refers to Bonaparte. very weak proof, Napoleon should be deleted from that paragraph. Mouhibay (talk) 10:13, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, thanks for bringing this up. The source points out that Napoleon's plan to resettle Jews in Jerusalem was short-lived and he later changed his mind and preferred integrating Jews in France.

Noting here that I removed the entire paragraph as being unsourced and WP:UNDUE. No doubt there is plenty to be said about non-Jewish support for Zionism, and even support for Zionist ideas (return to Israel) that pre-dates the rise of Zionism in the late 19th century. But this content needs to be sourced to history books about Zionism, and ideally should include the context that much of this support was due to antisemitism (people wanted Jews to go to Israel because they wanted Jews to leave where they were). However, the paragraph was just a bunch of unsourced name-dropping. Levivich (talk) 13:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

thank you very much Mouhibay (talk) 08:24, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Colonial project?

@Selfstudier and האופה: Can the two of you please discuss here what you think this should say?

In particular, User:Selfstudier, can you please offer what you think should be said here as a direct quote from a source you cite? And maybe choose verbiage to acknowledge that the term "colonial project" may be interpreted differently by a general audience today than how it was interpreted by Zionists in late 19th century Europe?

If the original was in a language other than English, we should include the quote in the original language. Languages evolve, and a translation that may have been appropriate in the late 19th century may not be appropriate today. If you could use help with translation, we might be able to arrange that.

I think User:האופה has a point that the term "colonial project" may be inflammatory and therefore constitute POV editing in today's political environment. With luck, we might find a way to include that term as a direct quote from some Zionist from late 19th century Europe in a way that User:האופה and others will find acceptable.

DavidMCEddy (talk) 07:29, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Early Zionists sometimes referred to their project as "colonial" in the sense of establishing agricultural settlements (in Hebrew moshavot) and reviving Jewish life in the ancestral homeland. This quote appears to be used anachronistically in this context, to imply as if the Zionists were adherents of the contemporary sense of colonialism, the control of resources and people by countries, notably imperial powers, in foreign lands. This usage is more political than encyclopedic and totally unnecessary here. HaOfa (talk) 08:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Agricultural land and water sources are resources, so agricultural settlements (or colonies) control resources. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: The text was added by yourself on 5 June, care to comment? The lead is a summary of the body and I assume you are relying on the material in para 4 of the lead. "Similarly, anti-Zionism has many aspects, which include criticism of Zionism as a colonialist,[26] racist,[27] or exceptionalist ideology or as a settler colonialist movement.[28][29][30][31][32] Proponents of Zionism do not necessarily reject the characterization of Zionism as settler-colonial or exceptionalist.[33][34][35]" Selfstudier (talk) 09:42, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Although it is true that Zionists called their settlements "colonies" (moshavot), it is more relevant here that they called their whole enterprise colonization. They used that word in English, and they used it in German. The minutes of the Zionist Congresses used that word hundreds of times, not for individual settlements but for the overall enterprise designed for mass settlement. Zionism only stopped calling itself colonial when the concept of colonialism developed a bad odor in world opinion. It is simply not true that the meaning of the words has changed in the interim (suppose a century from now the Mormons decide to settle all of Mars—we will call it colonization just the same). Of course one can identify differences between colonization by a nation state and colonization by some other group of people, but those differences were recognised back then in just the same way as they are recognised today. That difference is one of the motives behind modern analyses that distinguish "settler colonisalism" from other types. Zero^talk 11:37, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, whatever Zionism is believed to be today, it emerged as an expressly colonial endeavour. Hence, the World Zionist Congress established the Jewish Colonial Trust; the Jewish Colonisation Association was established in the UK; and the like. This shouldn't be in the lead as a criticism, but as a basic description of the movement's early formulation. After 1948, the nature and characterisation of Zionism naturally morphed. Much more recently, the conceptual framework of "settler colonialism" has been applied, but that is a distinct label from the basic colonial characterisation, which early Zionism was open and unabashed about. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:00, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I support inclusion of the word colonization or colonial in the lead; As others have said, Zionism began as an openly colonial project, aligned geopolitically and in many ways ideologically with European colonialism. We should not leave that out of the article because of a modern day aversion to the attitudes of the past. Unbandito (talk) 22:08, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that "colonialism" has multiple meanings. There's the way it is most commonly used today - with all the negative value judgment of the colonial enterprise as in the Colonialism article- "maintaining of control and exploitation of people and of resources by a foreign group of people. Colonizers monopolize political power and hold conquered societies and their people to be inferior to their conquerors". And there's colonialism in the sense of moving to a new place and establishing a settlement there- a colony - as in Colonization of Mars- migration and establishing long term presence, without any negative associations. Zionists thought of themselves in the latter sense, while the proposed edit will likely be understood in the former.Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 16:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Zionists thought of themselves in the latter sense...

this is just not true. See the writing of the leaders of the movement, and the scholarly discussion on these writings. DMH223344 (talk) 18:39, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I am quite family with thew writings of the Zionist leaders, and none of them thought their project was about conquering, controlling and exploiting inferior people. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 19:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Strawman. Not the issue at hand, which is, was it a "colonial project", yes it was. Selfstudier (talk) 19:06, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Not in the sense described in our article on "Colonialism" Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 19:08, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

There is no such link in the material that you reverted in this diff. Selfstudier (talk) 19:11, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The confusion as a result of multiple meanings I described above is obvious, wether or not a link exists. The text I restored has been in the article for years (with minor variations). I don't think there is agreement here to change it to the version you like, Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 19:19, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

What are the multiple meanings of "colonial project"? Selfstudier (talk) 20:24, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

read above Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 20:30, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I did, answer the question, please. Selfstudier (talk) 20:32, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

read it again, I am not going to repeat myself. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 20:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

You just did. Selfstudier (talk) 21:43, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

You've of course omitted the most relevant part of that paragraph which mentions settler colonialism specifically. "While frequently advanced as an imperialist regime, colonialism can also take the form of settler colonialism, whereby colonial settlers invade and occupy territory to permanently replace an existing society with that of the colonizers, possibly towards a genocide of native populations"

Is your point that the early zionists didnt' think they were doing anything negative? DMH223344 (talk) 21:18, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The early Zionists did not "invade" anything - they emigrated to a land with the authorization of its sovereigns, and the only territory they "occupied" was territory they bought or leased. I don't see anything negative in that, Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 21:37, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Though I support both renderings in this article, I would point out that my edits changed the phrasing in the lead from a "colonial project" to "colonization" Unbandito (talk) 00:15, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

For the editors who think that Wikipedia should not describe Zionism as "colonialism," can you name one book about Zionism that does not describe it as colonialism? Levivich (talk) 21:32, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

You could start with המהפכה הציונית (The Zionist Revolution) by David Vital. There are many more. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 21:56, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Is that the same as The Origins of Zionism, written in 1975? Levivich (talk) 22:00, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think so, it was published in 1978, and "The Origins" seems to be part 1 of a trilogy, which this isn't. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:03, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

OK that's very old, and WP:AGEMATTERS. And if Google Books is correct, it was published by the WZO. [4] If there are many more as you say, it should be easy to link to a book written in the 21st century, in English, by an independent publisher. Levivich (talk) 22:08, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi. Check out this review by Dr. Benny Morris (starting from "Colonialism is commonly defined as"). With regards, Oleg Y. (talk) 11:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Benny Morris, in a book review, doesn't agree with Khalidi's The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonialism and Resistance, 1917–2017.

And? Selfstudier (talk) 12:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, now we are getting somewhere. No doubt Benny Morris is real 21st scholarship. But, a few "buts":

1. I know it's a bit pedantic, but that's not a book about Zionism, and neither is Khalidi's book a book about Zionism. That's Morris reviewing Khalidi's book about the conflict. A book review shouldn't be given as much WP:WEIGHT as a book, and a book about the conflict -- for this article -- shouldn't be given as much weight as a book specifically about Zionism (or the history of Zionism).
2. I'm not sure that either Khalidi or Morris have ever written a book about Zionism? They are experts in the conflict, but I wouldn't call either of these "WP:BESTSOURCES" for this article.
3. Nevertheless, even if we "count" this, we have one scholar (Khalidi) saying Zionism was colonialism, and one scholar (Morris) saying it wasn't. Call it a tie. So that begs the question: which, if either, is the mainstream view?

I assume I don't have to prove that there are, say, three books entirely about Zionism that call it "colonialism," although I can post three if anyone wants. (If we open it up to looking at books about the conflict in general, and not just Zionism specifically, then there will be even more books like Khalidi's.) That leaves the question: are there more books/scholars (and I mean 21st century real scholars like Morris and Khalidi) that share Morris's view that it's not Zionism? I'm going to guess without looking that we'd find something by Efraim Karsh agreeing with Morris's view that Zionism was not colonialism. And some would argue about whether Karsh "counts" but let's skip ahead and say Morris and Karsh are two. I could post like six examples that say "colonialism." So are there like six or more examples like Morris or Karsh that say "not colonialism"? What I'm getting at is that I think "colonialism" is the mainstream view and Morris is in the minority. "Prove me wrong"? Levivich (talk) 12:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Why would Karsh, an academic historian and professor (emeritus) of Middle East and Mediterranean Studies at King's College not count? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 12:35, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Extreme bias, still, let's count him, still going to be a minority. Selfstudier (talk) 12:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

And Khalidi or Morris are not biased? C'mon, let's be serious. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 12:41, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Both biased, of course, all sources are biased. Not extreme though. Selfstudier (talk) 12:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I find Khalid to be every bit as extreme as Karsh, just from the other side. That's not a serious argument for exclusion. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 12:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Aside from bias, I don't think Karsh has ever written a book about Zionism (as opposed to a book about the conflict). But I think we'd all agree to "count" Karsh so as not to be distracted by arguing about him, and still, Morris and Karsh would make a minority of two, so the question remains: who else is there among 21st-century scholars who say Zionism was not colonialism? (And note: the number of books about Zionism, meaning BESTSOURCES, that say it's not colonialism is currently 0.) Levivich (talk) 12:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

You are moving the goalposts (slightly, but moving them nonetheless). You first asked for " one book about Zionism that does not describe it as colonialism" and I gave you one, , which you dismissed on a pretext ("not 21st century"). Now you are asking for something else - multiple books that explicitly says it is "not colonialism" - that's not the way academic books on a topic are usually written, as opposed to polemics seeking to prove or disprove a point. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 12:54, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

What was that about moving goalposts? There is no unresolved question here and no real argument against colonization (or colonial project). Selfstudier (talk) 12:57, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I thought I explained it: Levivich first wrote 'can you name one book about Zionism that does not describe it as colonialism'. When that was done, he switched to "who else is there among 21st-century scholars who say Zionism was not colonialism" - Moving_the_goalposts#Logical_fallacy Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 13:02, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll take a book about Zionism -- 21st century independently written/published -- that either doesn't describe it as colonialism or says explicitly it's not colonialism, but to your point, Morris's book review disproves it: there you see him explicitly say not colonialism, so that is in fact how academic works are written. There are so many books/works about Zionism that say it's colonialism that if the mainstream view was that it wasn't colonialism, we'd have no problem coming up with many modern works that say so explicitly. As an example of this, I can show you modern scholarship that explicitly says the mainstream view is not that it's settler-colonialism, but I'm not aware of any that say it's not colonialism at all. Levivich (talk) 12:59, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I said books are usually not written this way, not that you can't find an example or two that do. Morris is well known for his polemical style, and that is a book review - not a book. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 13:05, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I would still count crossing the first goalpost ("doesn't say colonialism") as a score :-) But we're still at zero examples...

You know, 1978 was before the Israeli archives were opened, before the New Historians, anything that old is obsolete when it comes to scholarship on this subject, so that doesn't count. That's why WP:AGEMATTERS. Plus it appears to be out of print, published by the WZO, and in a language I do not know how to read so I can't verify it. Levivich (talk) 13:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Modern Zionism dates to the late 19th century, you think there's some mysteries document hidden in Israel's archives that suddenly exposes the true nature of Zionism as a colonial project that wasn't known before? You will note that the most notable of the New Historians - Morris - is actually one that holds the position that it is not colonialism.

If you keep inventing pretexts (has to be a book, has to be explicitly about Zionism, has to be 21st century, has to be in English, has to be in print, can't be published by WZO[which incidentally is not quite accurate - it was published by Am Oved, an independent publisher, in partnership with WZO]) - then naturally you are going to arrive at the result you want.

But here you go- Sachar's "A History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time ", 3rd edition revised and expanded, published in 2007 Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 13:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

you think there's some mysteries document hidden in Israel's archives that suddenly exposes the true nature of Zionism as a colonial project that wasn't known before? Yes, actually, that's exactly what the New Historians found in the archives, isn't it, and why people now call the Nakba an ethnic cleansing when they didn't before? Also there are other primary source documents that were declassified or published decades later, such as the diaries of leaders like Hertzl and Ben-Gurion, which caused historians to re-evaluate history. That's how it works, of course: documents get declassified, historians revise history. I'm not familiar with Sachar, thanks for that, I'll take a look. Levivich (talk) 13:55, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

More goalpost moving. We were not discussing the Nakba, a 1947-1948 event, but the origins of Zionism.

I can certainly see that released archival documents would shed new light on plans and goals of the 1947-1949 war, and whether or not the depopulation of Arab towns was pre-planned - but what has that got to do with the origins of Zionism 70 years earlier? Teh protocols of the 1st Zionist Congress from 1897 were open to all historians in 1975 Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 14:25, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

That one wasn't goalpost moving, it's using the Nakba as an example of something, other than Zionism, that was re-evaluated when archives were unsealed, and as an example of the broader point, which is that as time goes on, historians learn new things about history, which is why we need to look at recent scholarship and not 50-year-old scholarship. This is true in every historical field (hence, Wikipedia has the WP:AGEMATTERS policy), but it's especially true when it comes to the history of Israel/Zionism, because there has been so much re-evaluation in the subject area over the last 50 years.

As a concrete example of this, here is Ilan Pappe writing in 1998 about "Fifty Years Through the Eyes of “New Historians” in Israel," and the first section of that paper is called "Early Zionism Revisited", where he says In the new historiography, Zionism began as a national awakening in Europe but turned into a colonialist movement when it chose Palestine as its target territory. And I'd say that even that paper is outdated because it's 25 years old. Whatever was revisited by 1998 has been revisited again by 2024: Pappe has written many books and papers since, and so have Morris and Karsh and Khalidi and many other scholars. So we look at current scholarship, frankly the more recent, the better. As a kind of rule of thumb, I go with "21st century," it's an easy place to draw a line. Levivich (talk) 14:47, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't dispute that archival material can shed new light - I am disputing that there's anything in the Israeli archives (or any other archives for that matter) that could shed light on the origins of Zionism, when all the protocols of that movement were previously available. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 16:12, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I looked and Howard Sachar's A History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time (Knopff 2007, 3rd ed.) describes Zionism as colonization, many many times in the book. Let me know if you want quotes. Levivich (talk) 15:02, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

yes, please. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 16:06, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I have the ebook so references are to "chapter, section" rather than page number. Bold and blue links are mine.

Sachar quotes

Chapter 1 Ch. 1, Forerunners of Zionism: "They were: that the salvation of the Jews, as foretold by the Prophets, could take place through natural means, that is, by self-help, and did not require the advent of the Messiah; that the colonization of Palestine should be launched without delay; and that the revival of sacrifices in the Holy Land was permissible ... Moving so far beyond traditional Orthodoxy that some colleagues branded his views heretical, Kalischer urged: the formation of a society of rich Jews to undertake the colonization of Zion; settlement by Jews of all backgrounds on the soil of the Holy Land; the training of young Jews in self-defense; and the establishment of an agricultural school in the Land of Israel where Jews might learn farming and other practical subjects ... Kalischer’s notion of “practical messianism” in fact was appealing enough to win over a small but influential group of contemporaries who joined him in founding a “Society for the Colonization of the Land of Israel.” ... In later essays, Smolenskin made plain that all methods were legitimate in sustaining the national ideal, not excluding the physical colonization of the Land of Israel ..." Ch. 1, European Nationalism and Russian Upheaval: "Rome and Jerusalem was unique in its prefigurations of later and better-known Zionist doctrines ... Predating Herzl, Hess envisaged the self-interested collaboration of other governments in reviving a Jewish protégé nation in the Middle East, and the active help of the “Jewish princes”—Rothschild, Montefiore, and other millionaires—who would fund and organize Jewish colonization in Palestine." Ch. 1, Chovevei Zion: "Indeed, before his death in 1891, he managed to provide the Chovevei Zion with a coherent ideology and an organizational framework, to strengthen the foundations of Palestine colonization, and to achieve a quasi-legalization for the movement in Russia." Chapter 2 Ch. 2, The First Aliyah: "It was rather a group of youthful idealists that decided finally to take the initiative in establishing a creative foothold in Palestine. In January 1882, thirty young men and women gathered in the Kharkov lodgings of a university student, Israel Belkind, to discuss the “plight of the nation.” Most of them had been reared in middle-class families. All either were attending university or, in some instances, had received professional degrees. They were all imbued, too, with a mixture of ardent Jewish nationalism and fiery Russian populism. In their minds, as in those of most of the Russian students of their generation, social reform and national fulfillment were interlinked. Thus, after extended discussion, the group decided that the revival of Jewish life in the Holy Land on a “productive” basis must begin immediately, without awaiting full-scale support from the wider Jewish community. Then and there they formed an emigration society, later to be known as “Bilu”—a Hebrew biblical acrostic of “House of Jacob, let us go.” In ensuing meetings, nineteen of the youths made the commitment to abandon their studies or professions in favor of immediate departure to the Land of Israel; the others would recruit new members to establish a model agricultural colony in Palestine. “We have no capital,” noted Chaim Chissin, a founding member, in his diary, “but we are certain that once we are [in Palestine] we shall be established. On every side we find an enthusiastic display of sympathy for the idea of the colonization of the Land of Israel and we have already received promises of aid from societies and influential persons.” ... Where were the funds that at least would enable them to develop a model colony of their own—their very raison d’être for having traveled to Palestine? ... Afterward he attended a Chovevei Zion conference in Jassy, where he instantly sensed the potential of the emergent Zionist movement. The indefatigable Englishman thereupon departed for Constantinople in the hope of persuading the Ottoman government to grant the Jews a charter for colonizing the Holy Land." Ch. 2, "The Well-Known Benefactor": "With the passage of time, the Zionist colonies became Rothschild’s major philanthropic interest." Ch. 2, The Bridgehead Widens: "More significantly, he appeared to disengage himself from personal control of the settlements by turning over their management to a separate and ostensibly independent body, the Palestine Colonization Association—the PICA." Chapter 3 Ch. 3, From Theorist to Activist: The Zionist Congress: "In the Zionist Organization, Herzl had created his “Society of Jews.” Now he was determined to organize the “Jewish Company,” a bank to be entitled the Jewish Colonial Trust ... The older methods of piecemeal colonization in Palestine, deprived of international legal recognition, no longer were adequate ... This was simultaneously to improve the coalition of the Yishuv—Palestine Jewry—by colonization and industrialization, and to endorse once again all possible diplomatic efforts to acquire a charter of Jewish settlement in the Holy Land." Ch. 3, The Kaiser and the Sultan: "He still did not have the bank, the financial instrument he had regarded as crucial to both negotiations and colonization ... Afterward, presumably, the issue of colonization would be taken up again. Herzl found the idea appealing. With some effort, he finally secured the Zionist Actions Committee’s reluctant approval to deposit letters of credit totaling 3 million francs in Ottoman banks; the sum would be guaranteed by the Jewish Colonial Trust." Ch. 3, The British Connection: "On February 5, 1902, he summoned the Zionist leader back to Constantinople to “furnish information” on current progress. Upon meeting with Ottoman officials in their capital nine days later, Herzl could only fight for time. In a desperate maneuver, he suggested that before any funding of the Public Debt was possible, the sultan should take the initiative in offering the Jews the general concession of a land colonizing company." Ch. 3, Achad HaAm, Easternesr, and the Democratic Faction: "In “Lo Zeh HaDerech,” we have noted (this page), he urged his fellow Chovevei Zion to reconsider their emphasis upon actual physical settlement in Palestine. Yet his purpose was not merely to postpone colonization until juridical and diplomatic guarantees were secured from the Turks, but to ensure that the national spirit of the Jewish people was fully ignited ... Moreover, while Achad HaAm, no less than Herzl, deplored “infiltrationism” as a technique for reviving the Jewish nation, the former’s disciples—Weizmann, Motzkin, and the largest numbers of east European Jews—still preferred gradual and methodical colonization in the revered Holy Land to a paralysis of suspended animation, waiting breathlessly for Herzl’s diplomatic achievement of a charter. Well prior to the Sixth Zionist Congress in August 1903, it became evident that the al-Arish project had reached a dead end." Chapter 4 Ch. 4, Zionism After Herzl: "As a result, the Seventh Zionist Congress, meeting in Basle from July 27 to August 2, 1905, was obliged to give urgent attention to its future stance. In overwhelming numbers, the delegates rejected any colonizing activities outside Palestine, and voted unequivocally in favor of emigration and settlement there, with active encouragement of Jewish agriculture and industry ... Thus it was that Gegenwartsarbeit—“work in the present,” practical Zionism—embracing both colonization in Palestine and cultural activity in the Diaspora, became a meaningful Jewish force." Ch. 4, The Second Aliyah: "At the turn of the century, we recall, both the “old” Yishuv and the “new” Yishuv still depended mainly on outside help—Chalukkah charity for the old, Rothschild or Zionist philanthropy for the new. Although more than 50,000 Jews were living in the Holy Land by then, only 5,000 were to be found in the twenty rural colonies." Ch. 4, The Collective Settlement: "The onset of the Second Aliyah coincided with a growing momentum of Jewish agricultural settlement in Palestine. It was helped in considerable measure by Baron Rothschild’s PICA. New colonies included Sejera, Mescha, Menachemia, and Yavne'el founded in 1901–02, and Beit Gan in 1904 ... With land and loans supplied by PICA, the new colonies eventually showed modest profits." Ch. 4, The Conquest of Hebrew: "The Alliance schools, too, were conducting the major portion of their instruction in the Hebrew language, as were the schools in the Zionist agricultural colonies. Additionally, sixty Zionist schools in the towns and outlying farm colonies, comprising 2,600 pupils, were using Hebrew as their sole medium of instruction. This program was decisively augmented by the iron willpower of the Zionist settlers themselves, and notably the immigrants of the Second Aliyah." Chapter 5 Ch. 5, A Crucial Intermediary: "It was only during his travels in Palestine that Sykes had come to admire the Zionist colonies and to sense their potential rejuvenating influence among the Jewish people." Ch. 5, A Declaration Is Issued: "To sustain the momentum, meanwhile, Talaat invited leading German and Austrian Jews to Constantinople to discuss Jewish land colonization and autonomy in Palestine." Chapter 6 Ch. 6, High and Early Hopes in the Holy Land: "As far back as December 1917 the foreign secretary had approved the departure of a Zionist Commission for Palestine to organize relief work and supervise repair of damage to the Jewish colonies." Ch. 6, The "Constitution" of the Mandate: "This major concession to the Arabs evidently registered only slowly on the Zionists. In their earlier correspondence with the British they had expressed at most a perfunctory interest in the Transjordanian area; their colonies were all to the west." Chapter 7 Ch. 7, The Revival of the Zionist Organization: "Each of its members became responsible for a specific facet of the Zionist reconstructionist effort in the Holy Land. Thus, departments were organized for political affairs, immigration, labor, colonization, education, and health ... The colonization department was responsible for the development of new Jewish agricultural villages." Ch. 7, The Growth of Urban Settlement, the Struggle for Labor Unity: "The Labor Zionist leadership watched this development closely. It was persuaded by then that in the cities, as on the soil, labor’s task was to conquer the Palestine Jewish economy and shape it altogether in its image. In fact, rudimentary workers’ organizations had appeared in the Jewish colonies as far back as the 1880s and 1890s, but the PICA directors had managed to stamp out most of them." Ch. 7, The Creation of the Jewish Agency: "A formula acceptable to both Zionists and non-Zionists was worked out as early as the Zionist Congress of 1925. It set as the goals of a Jewish Agency: continuous increase in the volume of Jewish immigration; redemption of the land as Jewish public property; agricultural colonization based on Jewish labor; revival of the Hebrew language and of Hebrew culture." Chapter 8 Ch. 8, Arabs and Jews Before the Mandate: "While Arab banditry was an endless harassment to the Zionist colonies, it signified no particular nationalist animus." Ch. 8, A Failure of Perception, a Renewal of Violence: "For the Labor Zionists, particularly, the economic benefits of Jewish settlement appeared to be the decisive response to Arab nationalism ... For Ben-Gurion, “only the narrow circles of the Arab ruling strata have egotistical reasons to fear Jewish immigration and the social and economic changes caused by it.” The Arab masses, at least, would understand that Jewish immigration and colonization brought prosperity." Ch. 8, The Revisionist Answer: "What Revisionism demanded, he said, was “the systematic and active participation” of the mandatory in the establishment of the Jewish commonwealth. Mass colonization was not a private enterprise, nor a project for voluntary organization; it was state business requiring the active assistance of the state power. Jabotinsky’s idea, in short, was to recruit Britain as a full-fledged partner in the building of the National Home—as opposed to Weizmann’s policy, which regarded colonization in Palestine as essentially the task of the Jewish people."

These are not the only mentions, but should be enough to demonstrate that Sachar describes Zionists as colonizers, and of course Zionists described themselves the same way. Levivich (talk) 20:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this. Go back and read what I wrote above about the multiple meanings of colonization. When someone writes, e.g " establish a model agricultural colony in Palestine" it is the exact parallel of a colony on Mars. This is also exactly what User:האופה wrote at the top of this thread - 'Early Zionists sometimes referred to their project as "colonial" in the sense of establishing agricultural settlements (in Hebrew moshavot) and reviving Jewish life in the ancestral homeland. This quote appears to be used anachronistically in this context, to imply as if the Zionists were adherents of the contemporary sense of colonialism" Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 20:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

So tell me which do you think is true:

1. You know something about the multiple meanings of colonization that Howard Sachar doesn't know, and Sachar made a mistake when he used the word "colonization" in his book, OR
2. Sachar knows about the multiple meanings of colonization, and decided to use that word anyway

I think it's #2.

And BTW, you should drop the comparison of colonizing Palestine with colonizing Mars, because there are no people who live on Mars. So even if the Zionists thought they were colonizing a barren, empty land, they were wrong. Either way, this article says "colonization" because the sources say "colonization," and it really doesn't matter if editors think that's not the right word to use, because it's the word the sources use. Levivich (talk) 20:32, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

The fact that Mars is barren is exactly the point - it demonstrate you can "colonize" a land, in the sense of building communities there, w/o subjugating a population you believe to be inferior and exploiting it - which is the common, modern connotation of colonization, which was missing from early Zionist use of the term. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 21:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Sure, you can "colonize" a land, in the sense of building communities there, w/o subjugating a population you believe to be inferior and exploiting it ... if there are no people there! Anyway, do you think Sachar doesn't know the modern connotation of "colonization" and made a mistake using the word, or that he knows the modern connotation and used it anyway? Levivich (talk) 21:07, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

No, you can also an "colonize" a land, in the sense of building communities there, w/o subjugating a population you believe to be inferior and exploiting it even if there are people there. Do you think The People's Temple colonized Guyana when they established their colony there?

I think Sachar didn't anticipate that 15 years later, wikipedia editors would try to use his choice of words in order to paint Zionists as subjugators. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 21:28, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

You're absolutely right, Wikipedia should not call Zionists "subjugators." Let's instead use the exact same word Sachar used: "colonization." Levivich (talk) 22:13, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Or, we could just say what the article has said for a long time - "Zionism is a nationalist movement that emerged in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine", without any potentially POV-laden terminology. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

WP:NPOV says Wikipedia articles should say what mainstream scholarship says. So if mainstream scholarship says "colonization" (and it does), then it would be "POV-laden" to not say "colonization." Levivich (talk) 23:03, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Somehow this article existed for years without this characterization, even as a "featured article" without anyone claiming it violates NPOV. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 23:09, 9 June 2024 (UTC)