Talk:Ryanair

Ryanair DAC and Ryanair Holdings

Hey, some days ago a user changed "Ryanair DAC" to "Ryanair Holdings Plc" in the very first sentence of the article.

Now that sentence is wrong by stating "Ryanair Holdings Plc is an Irish ultra low-cost carrier founded in 1984."

It would be correct this way: "Ryanair Holdings Plc is a multinational ultra low-cost airline group. The transition from the airline Ryanair and its subsidiaries to the airline group began in 2019. The oldest airline of the group Ryanair DAC was founded in 1984."

In the infobox it says "Parent company: Ryanair Holdings plc" which is also not correct anymore.

Is it time to seperate the airline and the airline group into 2 different articles? Or just leave it with replacing the first sentence in the article and in the infobox replacing "parent company" with "subsidiaries"? WikiPate (talk) 01:52, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

We could have two infoboxes, one for the group corporation, and one for the Ryanair DAC airline. But it would probably be best to have a separate article for Ryanair DAC, since we have separate articles for the other subsidiaries. cagliost (talk) 02:25, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I adjust the article for being an airline group so it looks like the Easyjet article and to prepare it for being split. If somebody knows how to split it into seperate airline and airline group articles following the WP regulations, go ahead. WikiPate (talk) 15:14, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

On reflection, I don't think it's necessary to create a separate article for Ryanair DAC. The article could distinguish more clearly between the Group and the DAC, but the History section works well as a single article. cagliost (talk) 15:46, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion about this topic has been reopened on WP:AIRLINES if somebody likes to participate. 2A01:599:215:4135:9:DE38:A4E2:F58A (talk) 07:42, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

See my comments at the ongoing discussion, but I feel a split is the most appropriate way forward with this - the DAC is an airline and a separate company with an operational focus on moving people from place to place. The holding company is a separate entity that manages brand strategy and finances across a group of airline subsidiaries. Obviously there will be some overlap in history as the holding company has no reason for existing without the DAC and other subsidiaries, but there is no policy that says two articles cannot have history that overlaps and it would be far clearer to just have a single infobox for each article. Dfadden (talk) 12:04, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@Dfadden: @Cagliost: Apologies for no follow ups on my end about this topic, was on an international trip and tried to minimize my Wikipedia usage! Back to this finally, I agree with Dfadden here, think a split is the best course of action. Maybe keep the group infobox and rename the page to Ryanair Holdings PLC? The DAC infobox can be moved to a new page either called Ryanair DAC or just Ryanair, and it would have only information on the DAC operations (i.e., fleet table would only be Ryanair operated aircraft and none of the other group airlines). Rest of the PLC page would then pretty much stay the same. Thoughts? VenFlyer98 (talk) 08:24, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I disagree, I don't think it is clearer to have the info spread over two articles. The subsidiary Ryanair DAC predates the holding company, so I think it is clearer to have one article. The history section thus covers the founding, and the change in strategy to a group of airlines. A split into two articles would require excessive duplication of info: the articles would largely be identical.

I don't think it is confusing at all to have two infoboxes on one article. On the contrary, I think it is clearer. Many readers will not be aware, for example, that some of the "Ryanair" branded planes they fly are actually operated by Buzz or Ryanair UK. A single article, explaining the distinction between the companies, makes things clear.

Notice it is not obvious which, if either, of the proposed two articles should be called "Ryanair". I think the COMMONNAME Ryanair applies to the Group run by Michael O'Leary, whereas VenFlyer98 thinks it applies to the DAC (which most people have never heard of). I suggest this implies that a single article, with the COMMONNAME "Ryanair", is the solution. For much of the company's history, "Ryanair" meant the DAC, and since the reorganisation, it means the Group. They belong in a single article, called "Ryanair". cagliost (talk) 10:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree. To most of its passengers and most of our readers, "Ryanair" is a single airline. Sure, we can inform them about the corporate structure and the fact that the "airline" actually comprises several separate AOCs, but the COMMONNAME remains that single perceived entity. There would be very little content specific to the DAC, and IMO WP:NOPAGE applies. Rosbif73 (talk) 11:51, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. The example is how we handle Lufthansa. The main article is about the airline, which is what everybody associates the name Lufthansa with, not Lufthansa Group, which is just a subsection of the main article. We should follow the same pattern here, with no need for a Ryanair DAC infobox. Lard Almighty (talk) 12:07, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Lard Almighty: We have two separate but related issues here: whether to split the article, and if not, whether to have two infoboxes. If we don't split the article, what would you think about having two infoboxes? With a single infobox, we end up saying falsehoods, like Ryanair Group has a callsign, or Ryanair DAC has a fleet size of 500+. Two infoboxes avoids this: the two companies have different founding dates, different subsidiaries, etc. The Lufthansa article has this problem: it says the airline has subsidiaries AND a parent Lufthansa Group, which is false. An IP address user raises similar points here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Airlines#Ryanair_Page_Setup. cagliost (talk) 12:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that this article has lost its focus. Just to be clear, I don't think we should split the article (just as we don't split Lufthansa and Lufthansa Group), and I think we should have only one infobox relating to Ryanair, the Irish airline with the callsign RYANAIR and the IATA code FR. That is what most people think of when they hear the name Ryanair. The Ryanair DAC box should simply be headed "Ryanair", with relevant items such as bases, fleet size (just for FR) added from the other infobox. The Ryanair Holdings infobox can then be removed, as that is not what the article is about. I don't think we need a separate article for Ryanair Holdings; we can have sections of the article explaining the various other companies that are part of Ryanair Holdings, and for the group as a whole. Lard Almighty (talk) 12:52, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I would support @Lard Almighty's proposal if there is no consensus for a split - still my preferred option. I echo their comments that the article focus has been lost and having two different infoboxes only further adds the ambiguity of what this article is about. One infobox should be retained (the DAC on covering RYANAIR/FR). I'm not opposed to covering the information about the holding company in a subsection, so long as it does not overwhelm the article and shift the main focus away from the operational airline. Dfadden (talk) 21:41, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Dfadden, the example of Lufthansa is a good one. The infobox should summarize the Ryanair airline that readers know and love, regardless of legal entities or corporate structure. I don't think we need an article or infobox about the corporate entity; it can be discussed in detail in this article. Consigned (talk) 22:32, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Built-in gangway

Ryanair Boeing 737-800 or 737-8AS with registration EI-EBA at Eindhoven Airport

Ryanair uses 737-800 with built in gangways, or air stairs, labelled as 737-8AS. 91.6.188.254 (talk) 02:01, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm a little confused as to why this conversation was started?

Disputed anything you said, and it's well published elsewhere.

Also, 737-8AS is the customer label for the aircraft and has no relation to Air Stairs being installed. T9537 (talk) 19:02, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Current group fleet dispute

Two editors are having a dispute about the order in which the MAX 200 (a derivation of the MAX-8) and the MAX 10 should appear in the list.

One wants to list them in numerical order based on 200, the other based on 8.

Generally, manufacturers number aircraft types in chronological order of first production. One interesting exception is the Boeing 717 which post-dates the every Boeing aircraft except the 787. However, it is listed in numerical order in the list of Boeing aircraft rather than date of first flight.

So the question here is which should we do here? Do we list in chronological order of first flight or in strict numerical order (given that the MAX 200, while a derivative of the MAX 8, is a separate model)? Another option would be to list by order of date that Ryanair ordered each model.Lard Almighty (talk) 07:29, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up. I have commented about the name of the aircraft here: Talk:Boeing_737_MAX#MAX_8-200_official_name

In addition to that, I think it's preposterous to put the Max 10s before the Max 8s (of which the 8-200 is a variant). We should list all the 737s in chronological order. (It doesn't make a difference whether it's by order of first flight, or first Ryanair order.)

@Lard Almighty:, what do you think? cagliost (talk) 09:34, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Of course, if our dispute at Talk:Boeing_737_MAX#MAX_8-200_official_name is resolved as I would prefer, the alphanumeric order will match the chronological order. cagliost (talk) 09:37, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the only airline to refer to it as the MAX 200 (without an 8) is Ryanair in an attempt to pretend that it's not a MAX 8 (same avionics etc., just higher density and extra doors) so it's not "tainted" by the MAX 8's issues. I guess there is an argument for calling it the MAX 200 on this page given that's how the airline refers to it. Lard Almighty (talk) 14:46, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Ryanair don't call it the 200, they call it the 8200. This Guardian article from 2019 details that name change. Here are some articles from their corporate website calling it the 8200: 2020 2021. And a Reuters article from just a few days ago about Ryanair calling it the 8200. cagliost (talk) 15:04, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Another consideration is the need to make clear to the reader this is a 737 MAX, not a Boeing 737-200. On the Boeing 737 MAX article, context makes this clear. But on this article, we need to be explicit. cagliost (talk) 13:22, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

I reverted @VenFlyer98: again and invited them to participate in this discussion. I note I am not the only user to have reverted VenFlyer98; T9537 has done so as well. cagliost (talk) 11:12, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

@Cagliost: First of all, T9537 has never reverted a single one of my edits. They did move the MAX 10 back down, but it was not a revert. On my talk page, you said “me and other editors keep reverting you,” yet you are the only one to ever directly revert me. This shouldn’t even be a cause for discussion: since the “MAX 200” name is being used, it goes under the 10. The tables go in numerical order. The table was like this for a while, as well. Additionally, it has been like this on other pages, see VietJet Air. In a similar case it’s the same reason why for airlines that operate the A321LR, it’s listed above the A321neo despite the LR being a variant of the neo (examples of this can be seen at JetBlue and TAP Air Portugal). Additionally, remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and is not made for aviation enthusiasts (WP:NOT), there is no reason it shouldn’t be in numerical/alphabetical order. VenFlyer98 (talk) 16:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Doesn’t Ryanair operate a few Learjet 45’s?

I’ve seen photo’s and read articles about it and supposedly it operates about four Learjet’s in its fleet. It’s also supposedly transport Maintenance crew and parts and well after a while of reading on the Simple Flying Page the Four aircraft are M-ABEU,M-AGBV,M-ABJA,and M-ABRB with ages around 11-20 years But one thing is that it usually has a Ryanair Callsign(FR) as FR1,FR2,And FR3. I’m not sure if it’s important or not but in my opinion it is.

Source:[1]https://simpleflying.com/ryanair-learjets/#:~:text=Ryanair's%20four%20Learjets,typical%20passenger%20capacity%20of%20nine. Heyymann21 (talk) 02:10, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

They are mentioned:

"The company also owns four Learjet 45 business jets, based at London Stansted Airport and Bergamo Airport but registered in the Isle of Man, which are mainly used for the quick transportation of maintenance personnel and small aircraft parts around the network." Lard Almighty (talk) 10:22, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh I didn’t see that lol sorry. Heyymann21 (talk) 02:07, 6 April 2024 (UTC)