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Cleanup in the Tekken aisle required

Alright, the Tekken characters are a mess so I'll be brief. Put up a whole slew of them for merge proposals:

• Azazel (Tekken)
• Combot
• Doctor Boskonovitch
• Devil (Tekken)
• Feng Wei
• Jinpachi Mishima
• Leo (Tekken)
• NANCY-MI847J
• Raven (Tekken)
• Unknown (Tekken)
• Zafina

The one shot bosses are pointed at their respective game articles (Azazel, Combot, NANCY, Jinpachi, Unknown). Devil is pointed at Kazuya Mishima. The others are pointed at List of minor Tekken characters. The rest of the articles could probably be worked on, salvaged, and improved with some reception and possible development points, and the Tekken 6 characters possibly too (I'm pretty sure Bob has a lot of reception to work with, given I've already seen comparisons between SF4's Rufus and him, thus why I didn't drop a merge tag on his page as well).--Kung Fu Man (talk) 23:38, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Adding to this, a proposal to merge Yoshimitsu (Soul Calibur) and Yoshimitsu (Tekken). It's never stated that these are the same guys or not, but they share the same moves and info to an insane degree. Combining them would probably help towards making one good article out of two crappy ones.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 23:45, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Be careful with the Yoshimitsu idea. Undoubtably, they are the same character. However, unless there is a reliable source stating they are the same, that statement cannot be made. It has been put on some forums that the SC Yoshimitsu is an alternate dimension version of Tekken's (again unreliable sources). If the two are to be combined, perhaps the article would be more appropriate as "Yoshimitsu (Namco character)"? Jappalang (talk) 01:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The two Yoshimitsus are different characters bearing the same name. The one from the Soul series is the first Yoshimitsu, a survivor of a ninja clan called "Manji," and the founder/leader of a group of thieves known as "Manjitō." The Yoshimitsu from the Tekken series is the current leader of the Manjitō. You'll note that they both have lost an arm, but it's not the same arm, depending on the character. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

One is just an alternate version of the other. You'll notice comic book articles of the same vein will list alternate versions of the characters in the same article as the primary character (i.e. Eddie Brock has descriptions of the "Ultimate" version of the character despite being drastically different). By themselves the articles don't carry enough punch for notability. All the combined article does is discuss two extremely similar characters owned by the same company, not say they're the same man absolutely. That can be expanded upon by improving the article.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually what you suggested is what I had in mind from the getgo, going to point the merge directs to Yoshimitsu (Namco) since the article does exist as a redirect at the moment. The merge tags should now reflect that (didn't even realize until now a merge tag existed for just this case).--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Then again, if none of the articles has substantial real-world information, just merge them into the List of (whichever appropriate game). Jappalang (talk) 01:57, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Most of them really do need to be merged. Just hoping this will kickstart someone to really begin improving them.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Adding two to this:

• Forrest Law to be merged into Marshall Law (Tekken)
• Anna Williams (Tekken) combined with Nina Williams to form Nina and Anna Williams

The first seems a given since Forrest is basically a replacement for his father and only in one game excluding Tag. The Williams...are more because they end up intertwined. You effectively can't mention one sister without the other, though at the same time if enough can be proven that Anna is better off with her own article (reception + development), then a merger wouldn't be worth the effort.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

(tongue-in-cheek) Of course, you could combine the sisters into the Williams sisters (Tekken). The Tekken tag is required to disambiguate from the Williams sisters (Tennis). Jappalang (talk) 12:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Alright, updates:

• The Yoshimitsu articles are now combined.
• Some reorganizing on Heihachi Mishima's article has been done.
• NANCY has been redirected to Tekken 6. It's just a bonus stage.

Expanded somewhat. Removed a lot of the rubbish in Template:Soul characters, which involved characxters already on the minor page or those that just belonged in the strategy game's char list instead. Every character listed there as "Bonus" is poised for a merger with the minor character list.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 01:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

World of Warcraft

I've been cleaning up this article for a while now, and it's getting to the point where I can't really see the wood for the trees. I could really do with the help of some fresh pairs of eyes to run over the article, particularly in the lead, development and legacy sections so that I can finish cleaning it up and prepare it for a Good Article renomination. many thanks! Gazimoff_{(mentor/review)} 17:53, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Got some sourcing suggestions on the talk page. I'll put some eyes on the article itself in a few days. Protonk (talk)

I think calling for a peer review would be better. In any case, I ran through the article like I would for a peer review, and present the following as my opinions and suggestions. I capped it so anyone interested in reading it can just "show" and read. Jappalang (talk) 09:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Impromptu review of World of Warcraft, Jappalang (talk) 09:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Lead

• I doubt the infobox requires separate version entries for US and EU, considering they are the same and only a day apart?
• The lead is not comprehensive in terms of the structure of the article. Gameplay and development are not mentioned at all.

Gameplay

• Personally I found it at the moment to be a big chunk of difficult-to-read text.
• I would like it to bring out the foremost aspect of WoC first, i.e. you can play as a character (human, orc, fantastic creature), going around killing creatures for treasure, and fight each other. Right now, that sentence is buried somewhere (the third sentence, worded quite obscurely and placed after two distracting sentences). Details of play would then be gradually brought in.
• The talk of realms can be moved to the Setting section.
• Despite the efforst to prune the article of game-guide materials, it is still over-detailed in some sections. There are concepts that can be explained in a few words or one sentence (e.g. items requires maintenance)
• Another example: I think talk on mailboxes are unnecessary, the concept that matters should be players can win prizes, send messages, and participate in auctions.
• I suggest thinking in this manner when setting out to write the Gameplay section:
  • What do players play as?
  • What can they do?
  • Where can they go?
  • Combat and spell mechanics
• Basically break it up into Characters, Combat and magic, and Setting subsections.
• Talk on experience points should not be in Setting. (Characters would be a better place or Combat and magic)
• I believe Gameplay still requires pruning (text can be roughly halved).

Development

• I think details of payments for each package is a bit too much. "Players have to pay subscription fees to continue playing on Blizzard servers after the free packaged playing time is over" could pretty much cover the first two paragraphs. China's subscription model is more distinct and can stand on its own paragraph (but still can do with cutting out redundant words).

Post-launch development

• Is all the talk on the launcher necessary? Many games use launchers, many games do not.
• "The game's hardware requirements increased as more patches and content are introduced. Later versions of the game required RAM double of the original requirements and no longer worked on older OSes." can replace the third paragraph

Corrupted Blood plague incident

• "The Corrupted Blood plague incident was one of the first events to affect entire servers."

  Does that imply that death of a player does not register across a server, i.e. on other players' screen, the player's character can still be seen hale and healthy? The concept of WoW should be everybody playing in the same world, so their actions sort of affects everybody and the world. "Event" is a very tricky word to use here. Furthermore, does that not imply that there are many other "first" incidences that plagued entire severs (of which it seems none are mentioned)?

Audio

• I think this section is best integrated into the main development as it is barely notable on its own. It is just a "so-and-so made the music for this game", and the composers are barely notable (if at all) themselves.
• Personal bias of mine perhaps, but the track listing is unnecessary. The music was not notable, nor are there any substantial information on its composition.

Reception

• Character death feels out of place in this section. The wordings do not bring an explicit feeling that players and reviewers treat it as an influential part of the game. The two passive sentences that convey a sense of reception are outweighed by the preceding three sentences of explanation on the concept. Development or Gameplay are more appropriate sections for the concept to be explained.
• Overwhelming amount of passive sentences and unknown subjects. "It was felt", "was described" by whom?
• Unnecessary details as well. Why explain the game concepts and mechanisms in this section?
• Common mistake: including every little plus and minus from every game reviewer. Just take the major pluses and minuses and expand on them, throwing in a few other opinions that would be minor but are interesting.

Legacy

• It feels more like a section of every little trivia squeezed in with the true legacy items. There are paragraphs that can be summarized into one or two sentences. Several can be outright deleted. Look at them from the perspective of a reader twenty years in the furture. Compress the events into a few sentences. Group similar news pieces to form present a general idea.

References

• No all-capital titles per WP:MOS
• Ref for Exploiting Games Online is malformed
• HTML is not required to be specified for websites
• What makes the following sites reliable?
  • mmogchart.com
  • games-fusion.net (could the press release be not found on reliable sites?)
  • http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=2856223138&sid=1&pageNo=14#271 (it is the official forum, but is Crodo a reliable source: Blizzard employee or such?)
  • What makes Matt Leyendecker or Actiontrip a reliable source?
  • gamerprice.com
  • virtuallyblind.com
  • boingboing.net
  • kotaku.com
  • twitchguru.com redirects to tomsgames.com

Copyright issues

• Who holds the copyright to the Leeroy Jenkins video, i.e. did Blizzard make screenshots and videos of WoW public domain?
• Did NBC release the Jeopardy video into public domain?

General

• The article needs further copyediting; its sentences do not flow smoothly on reading (many are singular-sentences jumping from topic to topic), although that can be rectified after the content has been taken care of.

Those are my thoughts and suggestions on reading this version. Jappalang (talk) 09:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Debate over translation of Final Fantasy Legend's Japanese name

Resolved

Got a minor debate going, could use some input from folks related to the project. User:74.242.122.25 is arguing for the Japanese text to be "Warrior(s) of the Demon Realm Tower"; I on the other hand am wanting to stick with "Warrior in the Tower of the Spirit World ~ Sa·Ga", the name used in a citable format on the soundtrack as shown by several sources including VGM World and Amazon.com, both of which I cited. His argument is that a translation does not need citations due to WP:MOS-JP. So input is needed to determine which should stick in a nutshell.

The discussion on the talk page.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 18:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for starting this discussion. I was about to recommend this instead of trying to resolve it on the talk page. The translation I provided is literal, as outlined by the kanji readings on the talk page. What Kung Fu Man wants to do is reference a machine translation used to describe the game's soundtrack, as cited only by a handful of webstores. This translation is unfortunately inaccurate. I'm trying to explain that facts / literal data need to come before references, as just because something is referenced does not mean it is indeed factual. In this case, the title used by these webstores is neither a common name or the name of the official product itself. 74.242.122.25 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

To just add a little to this, the title is used also by non-store citable source RPGFan and directory site World Art. No sites are shown to be using in any context the title as stated by 74.242.122.25 upon searching.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 18:32, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

It might be an idea to show the popular translation against the literal one. Both are valid and have their place in the article. How about the following structure?

The Final Fantasy Legend (Warrior in the Tower of the Spirit World), also known as Makai Toushi Sa·Ga in Japan (魔界塔士 サ・ガ^?, lit. "Warrior(s) of the Demon Realm Tower"), is first game in a three-part SaGa series on the Game Boy.

Hope this helps, Gazimoff_{(mentor/review)} 19:07, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not wild about that as an alternative. If you notice with the talk page discussion, there's conflicting viewpoints on just what the title is in English from supposed Japanese speakers: "SaGa of the Demon Tower", "SaGa: The Celestial Tower", "Warrior(s) of the Demon Realm Tower" and "The Tower Warrior of Hell". None of which are used as translations by citable sources of the game's Japanese title. I'd rather use a translation that groups we cite have agreed on rather than a random passerby's translation attempt.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Unless there's an official translation for that subtitle... well, good luck with that. The title is a bit of a pun, so I could see a bunch of possible translations/interpretations. I'll see if I can find something from Square Japan (perhaps on a BGM CD or something?)... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually you just missed a whole chunk of discussion directly below what you wrote on that subject...--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I've seen it, but I thought it would be nice to keep looking, as I'm not exactly sold on that translation...

Well, feel free to ignore the following...

The pun of the title is that "塔士"/"tōshi" isn't a "real" word in Japanese. It's a play on "闘士"/"tōshi" (which would mean something like "fighter"), with the "tō" character meaning "fight" being replaced with another "tō" character meaning "tower." So the imaginary word would be about "people who fight in towers," I guess? ^^;

Anyway, I found this. That's an official guide published by DigiCube, a now defunct subsidiary of Square, so I would think it's "official enough": "塔士" -> "tower gladiator".

There's still the "魔界"/"makai" part of the title though... I haven't seen an official translation for that one (I'll let you know if something comes up). It's been translated in other works as a bunch of things ("hell," "underworld," "demon realm,"...). There's a lot of possible interpretations/translations for that one, really... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 22:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Be careful with Amazon's list (I will get to its reliability later). It is not an official translation. The original song listings can be seen at NTT Publishing. Amazon's Editorial Reviews are not totally reliable sources. What Amazon does for this section is to go around the Internet finding reviews or information on the product from other sites. In many cases, the snippets in the Editorial Reviews are from sites that are considered unreliable per Wikipedia standards. In this case, they may have taken their translation from VGM World, so the issue now is to prove that VGM World is a reliable source in terms of English/Japanese translation (maybe through its parent site, CocoeBiz?).

Lastly, note that "Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors." as per WP:NONENG, which is policy not guideline. Jappalang (talk) 03:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

As an add-on, I fail to see anywhere in WP:MOS-JP stating that translations are not to be sourced for. Jappalang (talk) 05:39, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Cocoebiz hosts the official English sites of various Japanese composers, including that of Kenji Ito, who composed part of the album linked. Kariteh (talk) 08:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

In that case, Cocoebiz and its subsidiary VGM World would be reliable primary sources for the subject in concern. Jappalang (talk) 08:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm in favor of Gazimoff's suggestion to use a referenced translation beside a literal one. I've seen other articles do this, as well. Considering, games often use different titles across each localisation, it's important to outline the original source in a fashion as literal as possible to avoid any misconception that it does compare to the new, localised title. Although, I can't concede that the data provided about this soundtrack is official enough to be considered a common name in the first place, since the common name of the localised version is simply "The Final Fantasy Legend." 74.242.104.211 (talk) 17:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sticking with the original setup. We have source confirmed to be primary and reliable and policy that outweighs a guideline. There's no reason to continue this matter. Thanks for the help folks.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Or we could not deal with this Japanese crap by just having the english title. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

If we were in the market to make terrible, incomplete articles, you'd have an amazing idea. However, since we're covering a Japanese subject, ignoring anything remotely Japanese is, well, pretty dumb. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

GTA soundtracks

A while back I nominated Grand Theft Auto: Vice City soundtrack (which is basically a word-for-word reconstruction of everything you'll ever hear on any radio station in GTA:VC), for merging into Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Official Soundtrack Box Set, which is an actual album release of the game's soundtrack. Not much discussion ensued. Can I temp anyone to venture a comment or two? Thanks, Miremare 20:47, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The merge template seems to be the other way around (the box set to be merged into the main soundtrack article), which I agree with. If possible I would clean up the main soundtrack article first, though, as it is messy enough without pasting another article's content in. But overall I would go ahead with the merge one way or another. Ham Pastrami (talk) 11:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ooops, you're right, I got that the wrong way around. I suppose the question is whether the target article, Grand Theft Auto: Vice City soundtrack, should remain about the "in-universe" soundtrack as it were (which I think is of questionable use, notability, and sourcability), or change to being about the game's various actual OST album releases? It's probably a change that would likely get reverted, so looking for concensus before doing it... Miremare 19:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a reason there can't be a page called Music of Grand Theft Auto:Vice City that covers the OSTs with a lot of info weaved in about in game use, as ita use, after all, isn't typical of most video games. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 20:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

IMDb but reliable?

Is there an equivalent site to IMDb that lists a person's work in film/video games/books but is not user contributed and therefore has a chance at passing as a reliable source? I'm thinking of ways to reference the career section for Chris Metzen, but most interviews don't focus on what his work is, but who he is and how he does his work. An alternative would be to directly cite the game manuals (although I don't have all the games to cite all the manuals): would that be suitable? -- Sabre (talk) 09:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Citing the game manuals is probably OK. Does he have a CV or anything like that on his website that lists what he's worked on? —Giggy 09:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, he doesn't have a website in the traditional sense. The Sons of the Storm is only used to publish his (and the work of a couple of other Blizzard artists) art work and post news independent of Blizzard itself. Hopefully if he becomes a more established author he may start a new site, but at the moment, there's no "official" web-based way of showing his work. -- Sabre (talk) 09:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Citing credits is preferable, as they at least have some oversight, compared to a primary source making unverified claims. An in-game credits roll should also be sufficient (and usually more accurate than manuals) if that makes it any easier. Ham Pastrami (talk) 11:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

What about Allgame? Unfortunately the entry for Metzen is empty, but he's listed on credit pages like this one. Someoneanother 12:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, excellent. Combining Allgame with the game's credits/manual should work out well for referencing. -- Sabre (talk) 14:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I've added allgame to our sources list. --MASEM 14:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Fable 2 cleanup

Above article was tagged for cleanup - would someone like to check it

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fable_II&oldid=228425930

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fable_II&oldid=228427420

and make suggestions on the talk page in terms of further work etc... Thanks.87.102.86.73 (talk) 17:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

There's no point. It'll get lots of updates when its released. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.77.187.125 (talk) 17:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Sonic: The Fated Hour

Sonic: The Fated Hour is about a fangame that has been in the making for going on 10 years now. This article has been deleted four times (see the second incarnation's AfD discussion here and re-created four times. It apparently was also salted after the third time, but even the salt was also lifted from the page. On top of that, it was also recreated by the same person every time.

Should this be deleted and possibly salted again? (I'm asking here because of the obvious lapses in judgment I've been having lately in nominating articles for deletion.) MuZemike (talk) 19:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't see any evidence of notability, no coverage in reliable, secondary sources as far as I can tell. The condition of recreating an article that is deleted is if it is covered by reliable secondary sources. Speedy it as recreation of non-notable deleted material, salt it, and get the user to read WP:NOTE and WP:OR carefully. And WP:NOTADVERTISING and WP:COI, because the thing's written like a promotion and a fansite, not an encyclopedia article. This stuff in my view comes pretty close to Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not for things made up one day too. Fairfieldfencer has already transwikied it anyway, as you can see here.-- Sabre (talk) 19:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I should also note that the creator of this article has had some past significant issues regarding vandalism, incivility, edit warring, and launching of personal attacks towards individual users (in particular, to those who have nominated the article for AfD in the part), and he/she has wonton disregard towards Wikipedia policies and guidelines, despite the numerous warnings and one block given.

If we're going to move forward with this, then we need to exercise some caution as well as keeping this user on a proverbial short leash in light of the circumstances. MuZemike (talk) 21:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done Article tagged. Here we go. MuZemike (talk) 22:13, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done Article speedily deleted. That was quick! (less than 20 minutes from tagging the article) I have also requested admin to salt the article. MuZemike (talk) 22:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Article's been deleted by an admin under criterion G4. If the game is indeed imminant to release, then the user's more than welcome to recreate it afterwards provided its got coverage in secondary sources. -- Sabre (talk) 22:18, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Request for input at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Midwest_Gaming_Classic

I'd appreciate project members' input over at the AFD for this article. My neutrality (COI) is being called in to question for being able to vote or not at the AFD because I'm also a co-organizer of the event. (I intrepet COI and the language of the entire page refering to editing of material in the actual article itself, and controvercial edits that could be made in the article). Regardless, I'd appreciate other project members weighing in their viewpoints (regardless if you're for or against the article continuing to exist). --Marty Goldberg (talk) 20:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

need help with images for 4X to get to featured status

 Done

I'd appreciate if someone could help me out by uploading two images. You'd be helping out with a featured article candidate in a significant way. The two images I need:

• I need someone to upload this image of FreeCol. (which is a free image from an open source game)
• I need someone to upload this image of Sins of a Solar Empire, preferably at a smaller/lower resolution so that I can meet the wikipedia's guidelines. (leave the fair use rationale to me)

  Done for the SoaSE image. I will add it below the GalCiv diplomacy image in the 4X article for you to decide the specifics. Jappalang (talk) 22:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

You'd be doing me a huge favor. The reason I'd rather someone else upload it is a long story, but needless to say it would be relatively easy for someone else. I'll start offering cookies if I have to :) Randomran (talk) 22:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

You mean, uploading at Wikimedia Commons? Kariteh (talk) 22:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• (Thanks a lot, Jappalang!) Yep, that's all I really need. Just a quick upload of the FreeCol image to wikimedia commons. Randomran (talk) 23:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Done. Image:FreeCol colony screen.jpg Kariteh (talk) 23:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• And big thanks to you too! Randomran (talk) 23:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks guys. Assuming no more issues are raised about the images in this article, we should be safe for now. We'll see what the other reviewers say. Randomran (talk) 01:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Links to copyvio

I'm seeing a lot of edits by Sfan00 IMG who is removing links to sites with the comment "Remove Link - Don't link sites that link to copyvio!!" (look at his edit history). Are we really liable for what other sites link to? From what I've seen, some of the links he removes link to other sites, but don't actually have the games for download themselves. I can see not directly linking to warez sites, but are we supposed to police what sites we link to link to? Isn't this kind of a slippery slope? Is there a policy on this? — Frecklefσσt | Talk 12:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:EL - X201 (talk) 12:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Check out his THOUSANDS of edits that do exactly the same thing. And decide for yourself if he's acting in good faith or not. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 12:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Well good faith or no, he seems to have a general dislike for any site that has any involvement with copyrighted material, even if it just links to it. Some of the links he's removing though are actually useful in their respective articles. Sorting out which ones need to stick and attempt to talk it out with him, and if he doesn't budge take it here again with the list or a higher authority. From the looks of things, he's pretty steadfast in his stance.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 13:02, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

There's no question that he is removing 100's of valuable links, but I'm going to have to let someone else fight this battle. I'm not in the mood to fight a zealot right now. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 14:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Personally I believe that this level of worrying about copyrights on external links is unnecessary. I've noticed this user removing links to Amiga Magazine Rack, which provides a useful method of verifying articles that are in publications that are no longer available and quite rare to find in some cases. While technically the website is violating copyrights, due to the age of the material it's not exactly impeding profits of the company that owns the copyright. Another issue I've noticed is that citations the user has edited are sometimes broken and nolonger show up correctly. Bill ^{(talk|contribs)} 14:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I would take this to ANI for an opinion. Chrislk02 ^{Chris Kreider} 14:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I have started a thread at Wp:ANI asking for input on this. Link to discussion can be found here. Chrislk02 ^{Chris Kreider} 14:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedias statements on linking to copyrighted works supports his actions. Chrislk02 ^{Chris Kreider} 14:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't seem to cover though sites that in turn link to copyright violating sites in their link pages, just if the site linked to itself is in violation. Also some degree of fair use should exist for sites that cover subjects like old Amiga articles if it can be shown that the target site in no way impedes on the holder's ability to make profit off of the subject no?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 15:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It may support some of his removals, but I think what he's doing is, as I said on ANI, akin to burning the house down to kill the termites. He consistently removes proper links along with the bad. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 15:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

What are the proper links? As far as I can tell from the complaints brought to him on his or her talk page, most are dealing with youtube links (most definitely copy violations, in which supposedly authorized videos are not backed up by information stating so) or unreliable sites in any case. Furthermore, when the case seems reasonable per User talk:Sfan00 IMG#Geofact template and User talk:Sfan00 IMG#Please stop, the user seems amenable to reason. Perhaps a bit of talking to Sfan00 IMG after checking that the site is not copyright violation site could solve more issues than going straight to ANI? Jappalang (talk) 17:06, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Just a note that policy entitles him to remove links to such sites (a similar issue involving him as User:ShakespeareFan00 came up previously and is the reason why links to Home of the Underdogs are not to be used except in its own article, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 37#Underdogs links under attack). If the information was in magazines that a site was hosting scans of (copy violation)... the information should have been sourced to the magazine (cite journal without url) rather than to the site (cite web). Publications are not required to be online. Jappalang (talk) 17:06, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

NB - SOME of the material on HotU is legal, i.e shareware releases, freeware or open source, so there are links to it outside of it's subject article. I did check this manually to esnure they got reinsated if needed at the time of the sweep, as IIRC the inital removal was anything HotU as opposed to actual abandonware...Sfan00 IMG (talk) 17:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed - and in places the Amiga Magazine Rack removals were merly of the URl, not the additonal information on issues number. LMK if there are nay that need reinstating as it's inveitable that a sweep may have some false positives.. I am currently reviewing the last batch of removals..Sfan00 IMG (talk) 17:15, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Really? Is that what you did here? Twice, with the last one being one of your "manual edits" where you simply kept reverting the entire paragraph along with the reference, without replacing the reference with the aforementioned right in front of you magazine name, date, and page number? --Marty Goldberg (talk) 17:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Apologies, this would appear to be a case of 'wrong version' syndrome, Thanks for letting me know! Now fixed.. Links removed also renistated on reflection. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 00:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

I've been marking some sources in articles as unreliable but my edits have been reverted. I would like to know whether MobyGames really is reliable or not? Thanks. Weirdo with a Beardo (talk) 13:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Moby isn't, but from your history it looks like you remove a lot of sources in one swoop, so the reverting editor may not even notice that Moby is one of them. Try removing only the Moby link, or better yet, replace it with an accepted reliable source. If the content in question is controversial, and has only an unreliable source, the whole passage should be deleted or taken to the talk page -- removing only the source leaves the offending passage in the article with no verification whatsoever. Ham Pastrami (talk) 13:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I thought we were OK for citing sites like Moby/GameFAQs/etc. for release dates? That's what I reverted (that and the addition of a stack of {{fact}}s). —Giggy 14:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

GameFAQs still seems fine according to the valid sources list. MobyGames is really a source that shouldn't be excluded entirely per se, since it does list published reviews in the context of the titles and box art. Mass replacing references with citation tags however is pretty rude: you should at the very least a) see if the citation is needed in the first place, b) try to find an alternative, and c) if none available, then remove but bring up the matter on the talk page as longer pages tend to be a royal pain in the ass to wade through when you have those things peppered through them.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 14:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I would not go with GameFAQs even though it has been put back in the list (reasoning being that even if it shares a database with GameSpot, we can link to GameSpot rather than GameFAQs). I, too, would not recommend MobyGames as a reliable source. Jappalang (talk) 17:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• On that note, my recent post at Talk:Marvel vs. Capcom 2: New Age of Heroes raises questions about IGN's notability as per arcade release date times, as anyone who has been a fan of the Marvel series knows the date Wikipedia and IGN lists are obviously wrong. JuJube (talk) 13:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

  Being a reliable source does not mean that they do not make mistakes. Jappalang (talk) 17:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

TFA update

This is a heads up to all editors who have articles they hope to get to the main page- In addition to the flux going on with the rules for the point system, there is now a box on the talk page of the TFA nomination page for people to put there articles into, in order to hash out the point values for an article gets before it is nominated. A side effect of this, however, is that articles that could have multiple good days to run jostle around in order to not overlap with others, so if you have an article you want to be on the main page in the next 60 days, best to get it in there before the day gets blocked by a high-scoring article. --PresN (talk) 16:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Astro Empires

Hi guys, just wanted to ask for some help. A couple of times in the past the article for the MMOG game Astro_empires[1] has been deleted because it was considered non-notable. I was the original creator of the article back in early 2007 and then someone else restarted it later that year. Now the game, I feel at least meets notability as it has been featured in Portugal's (Its a Portuguese game) most read newspaper [2] (Online version, was in printed paper) as well as continued growth to over 30,000 players.

There is currently a discussion on having the article deleted again here and I would appreciate it if you guys could lend your two cent to the arguments. Thanks very much Butch-cassidy (talk) 16:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

PSP articles

Okay, there are a bunch of value packs for the PSP and I thought I should make an article for the God of War PSP value pack. What do you guys think? Will it be notable enough? King Rock (Gears of War) 18:24, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

These should be mentioned in the game articles themselves, and/or possibly listed if not already on the hardware unit. Bundles themselves are rarely notable to warrant a completely separate article. --MASEM 18:31, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok. King Rock (Gears of War) 18:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Pretty much agree with Masem here, but only to add that the information on special variant consoles to promote a game should probably go in the console article for preference. An example of this is Xbox 360 and Halo 3. Hope this helps, Gazimoff 18:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Gameplay Screenshots deleted at Shadowgrounds

Just a heads up, I've just had two screenshots deleted from the Shadowgrounds article. The deletion is discussed at Wikipedia:Images_and_media_for_deletion/2008_July_23#Image:Shadowgrounds2.jpg. There were two screenshots, I had only argued for one to be kept, but they both went. They were sourced and included a fair use rationale.

You'll see that the main argument is from pd_THOR, stating that as the Shadowgrounds article has no reliable sources, any claim made of the screenshot's use in depicting the graphics engine/camera angle/gameplay/HUD etc. is rendered void because there were no reliable sources in the article telling you why graphics are important.

The closing argument suggests that in addition to this, readers need hand holding. So you'd probably need more detailed captions than those I provided, because they can't figure out that a gameplay screenshot is meant to demonstrate gameplay. I don't know if they're trying to delete more screenshots, but if you provide sources and rationales, they do have to jump through a few more hoops.

It's probably worth reuploading one gameplay screenshot for obvious reasons, but I can't be bothered right now, and it's probably best to wait until it's no so watched and people forget. - hahnchen 23:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I think what they meant is that the images are not representing anything distinct that a casual reader cannot imagine from reading a textual description alone. Note that I have not viewed the images in question. This is just an experience I gathered from plowing through FACs and having my uploaded screenshots criticized and removed. Jappalang (talk) 00:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

GCOTW revival?

The skeleton closet topic got me thinking: Anyone interested in reviving the Wikipedia:Gaming Collaboration of the week? I used to enjoy the process of focusing on one stub as a WikiProject and improving it. JACOPLANE • 2008-07-24 21:52

Sign me up. (And we have this same discussion monthly, or so it feels, so this time we really need to just get it up and running if a few people agree.) —Giggy 23:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Allright, let's say that if five other people pledge to contribute in this thread, I'll get the process started again. So please indicate your willingness to work on the weekly collaboration below! For the new members of this project, this is what the GCOTW did from 2004 to 2007: Wikipedia:Gaming Collaboration of the week/History. JACOPLANE • 2008-07-25 00:01

I'll do it *if* we focus on our essential articles. Especially when it comes to general gaming information about gameplay and genre. I know there are some great game articles that need work, but I figure they can be written with a few good sources (reviews/previews) and a passionate editor or two. I'd much rather focus on some of our truly essential content that is sorely lacking. Randomran (talk) 00:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I will try to contribute, once I finish my commitments to certain other articles. Gazimoff_{(mentor/review)} 00:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if I can do it every week, but I'd be willing to help out when I can. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 00:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Some points. First off, I second Random's suggestion that the GCOTW undertake core and essential articles; I can whip up a video game FA in a few days single-handedly, but I would be utterly daunted by improving some of the genre articles; it's these big scope articles which desperately need the attention of many editors at once. I've got a fairly big todo I want to plow through, but if the collab needs source hunting I might be able to help. Also: correct me if I'm wrong, but the main reason the who thing fell apart was because Thumper left; we need a coordinator who is going to stick around and apply him/herself to the collab to keep it moving. Finally: if we were to take "big" projects like genres, it would be best to have a multi-week or month-long collaboration. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 00:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

GCotM please. GCotW is too short. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Of the month seems a little unfocused to me; while of the week might legitimately be too short, I think of the month would be too long. --Izno (talk) 02:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

When it's by week, people rush it, and they quit quickly. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I suppose a two week project would be out of line. Evaunit♥666♥ 02:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I suppose a comment without a thick layer of rude sarcasm is too. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. But why does it have to be just a week or just a month if people don't like one or the other? I think two weeks sounds good based on the arguments.Evaunit♥666♥ 03:16, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

The biggest problem is the title - would we call it "Gaming Collaboration of the Bi-Month"? - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:21, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Gaming Collaboration of the Weeks. Nifboy (talk) 03:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

That's the sort of cooperation a project like that will need. The name doesn't matter as much as long as people are involved. Evaunit♥666♥ 03:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• cough*fortnight*cough* --MASEM 04:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with Dave/Random that doing essential articles would be a good idea. And Fortnight sounds fine. —Giggy 04:53, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the core topics bit as well, although I wouldn't want it to be 100% exclusive to them. We just need to keep an eye open for the thing that was mentioned by most people when the COTW went bump, in that there were articles nominated that they didn't feel any passion for. - X201 (talk) 09:04, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Yep, I'm up for it. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 09:11, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for it. Although I wonder if we can reduce the buereaucracy involved. I know that can cause these things to lose interest after awhile. --.:Alex:. 09:12, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I suggested this a while ago, but had an idea of a two-pronged approach. We would have two articles up for GCOT(indiscriminate time period): the first would be a core article (restricted to top or high priority articles) with the intent of getting those to better than GA status (with one person committed to seeing the article through FA), and a second being any other article that needs a reasonable push from Stub/Start/C class up to B class/GA quality. In the first case, most of these articles don't have an author invested yet they are core, so it makes sense to get a large group effort on them. The second case, there must be someone who nominated the the article that is willing to do most of the footwork with the suggestions of the GCOT(itp). In this fashion, there would be two possible ways a user could contribute. --MASEM 10:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Alright then, give me a couple of days to get this started. Am I right that the consensus is for a "collaboration of the fortnight"? I'll try to get this done tomorrow, otherwise by Wednesday. JACOPLANE • 2008-07-27 21:13

Almost forgot about this discussion. I'm excited that others are willing to pitch in on our essential articles about gameplay and genres. Also, "Collaboration of the Moment" might be neutral enough. (Not that there aren't already a million suggestions for the name.) Randomran (talk) 07:05, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Main page heads up for BioShock

Looks like VG got another random front page hit for BioShock, scheduled for August 2nd. Not as worried about this as with Guitar Hero, but I could appreciate a few watchlist eyes for the usual shenanigans. (I hope this doesn't wreck the chance for Myst being an anniversary FA). --MASEM 23:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

No worries, I'll add it to my watchlist and keep an eye on things. Thanks for letting us know! Gazimoff 23:56, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Myst would be September 24... We're still outside of one month, so no deductions. :) I love how people complain about too much pop culture on the front page (see the Elder Scrolls snafu) and yet when we're not asking for anything we still get put up front :P I will keep an eye out. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 00:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Watchlisted. Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 01:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

On a completely unrelated tangent... Why are none (or few) of the dates in the Bioshock article "wikified"? I had thought that it was general policy to wikilink all full dates so that users with different date viewing preferences can view them as desired. --Slordak (talk) 20:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

A little over a week ago, Tony1 stopped by the talk page and pleaded his case on removing wiki-fied dates before taking them out of the article himself. Wikilinking dates has apparently switched from manditory to optional, so it's more of a style choice now if you feel like there's "too much blue" on the page. So far, only the dates in the infobox have been restored (per infobox MOS guidelines), but if you want to do something about it you can read his points and judge for yourself. Nall (talk) 20:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Lightning

I have started this page just to give further info as it is released and then move it to the mainspace when it's done. Help would be appriciated. Gears of War 2 03:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I would advise that unless you have further information on the character, such as why she is drawn and such, any particular notable inspiration for her design or personality, history of her conception, etc, please refrain from creating an individual character article for her. Right now, with only one source that is used for sourcing a "designed by" statement, the article would become a prime target for speedy deletion. It would be wiser to integrate the information into the game's development or character section. Jappalang (talk) 03:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

It's been moved here. Gears of War 2 20:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Unreliable sources II

I have a question about reliability of some sources. I've read all the guides about reliability, neutrality, verifiability and concepts of majority and minorities (to be ignored by wiki standards), and understand the fact that pools aren't reliable most of the times (as it is in the guides) because they might be easy to corrupt (ie one guy votes 4, 5 times, etc). Ok, the point is, Blizzard made a pool a while ago in Battle Net, and asked fan sites (Diablofans, DiabloII.net) to do the same about certain aspects of Diablo III. All the 3 pools were acessible only to long-time registered fans close to the game developement, and they could vote only once, with names taken and open for everyone to see. Is this the case pools can be considered reliable? Could i cite the pools, using the term "fans close to the game developement" ? Atriel (talk) 06:14, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Is this a high profile poll? If it is important (notable), the results will likely be reported by a reliable source, and you can cite and use that report's information. Jappalang (talk) 06:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like a contradiction in terms. How can readers of a fansite be "close to the game development"? What does that mean? Ham Pastrami (talk) 11:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

By close to the game developement i mean the fans that actively discuss in battlenet and diablofan forums, used to read and comment the old dev blog, actually spend (lots of) time discussing and trying to know everything about the game as it is being created instead of just waiting... Answering above, it is high profile; Even though the battle net forums were hacked (or deleted) some time ago and they claim that the data was lost, the pool on Diablofans is there and i've found links to the pool in some articles, like this: http://blizzplanet.com/news/2492/ Atriel (talk) 17:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, I failed to read that there were 3 fan-site polls (besides the Blizzard one)... Anyway, from what it states from your source (uncertain on its reliability), it is more of the fans starting on their own initiative to make the polls, rather than Blizzard asking them to. In this case, since the source made the appeal, there could be a conflict of interest in their reliability regarding this. Furthermore, as already said, do not cite the polls (especially from fan-sites), cite reliable sources that reported on them. Jappalang (talk) 22:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

There is a note on the poll on the "more liberal use of colour", comparing it to other similar situations in which fans have made their opinions felt, on page 31 of Edge (magazine), Issue 192 (September 2008). There's also a 2 page preview on the following two pages. I'll see if I can work this into the article for you. Hope this helps, Gazimoff 23:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The request was in the first page of Diablofans and DiabloII.net for quite a while, Blizzard asking for feedback from the community. Also (another matter), I've also found some reliable sources pointing to the first pool in Battle.net and its thread about art direction, but these two threads went poof when "hackers invaded battlenet" a while ago... These threads and the first official pool can still be seen in Google cache (from whom i retrieved the data), but the links in the news sites to those threads are now broken... Atriel (talk) 04:32, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

'Making Of' DVDs and development sections

An interesting question, but a potential minefield and something I think a fair few people are familiar with. A lot of "Special" or "Collectors Edition" versions of videogames are now being released on a fairly regular basis. As well as including things like soundtrack CDs and so on, a lot of these also include "Making Of" DVDs that could be a potential goldmine for the development section of their article on WP. The question I have is, can they be included as a citable source? As they're a primary source, are there any restrictions or concerns that I should bear in mind if citing from one? My gut feeling is that they should be treated like a director's commentary from a film DVD - citable but don't rely heavily from them. If anyone's had experience from this area in the past, especially in the GA or FA arena, it'd be most appreciated. Many thanks, Gazimoff 06:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

They are primary (or at best secondary) sources. As such, they cannot be used to estalish notability as a Wikipedia article, but can be used with care for citing information in an article per WP:SPS. Technical specifications, process, and inspirations are fine, but subjective claims about their or other company's products are out. Jappalang (talk) 06:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I think Developer commentary like "Making of" videos, DVD commentaries, developer blogs, and companion books are inherently the most reliable sources you can find for a subject. In things like development, audio, and character sections, they're invaluable, but their purpose can't really extend beyond that as far as games are concerned (reception, legacy, yadda yadda). Last Exit to Springfield (GA) is pretty small, but it manages to cite the DVD audio commentary 14 times while establishing notability with an even amount of outside sources. As long as the third party info meets or exceeds first party, I'd say it's fair game. Nall (talk) 23:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree with above. Once you've got your game's notability established, using primary sources in 'making of'-type DVDs and such is almost always the best way to get the bulk of a development section, with the caveats that you don't use it for anything outside the bounds of WP:SPS. (Both Myst and Riven rely pretty heavily on developer documentaries). Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 23:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Great, thanks to everyone. I guess I'll be going through my Burning Crusade making of DVD this weekend :) Gazimoff 23:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Wii Remote Infobox Pricing

I note that Wii Remote has pricing in the infobox and in the body of the text. This seems to go against most other articles, where prices are saved for just console articles, and even then, are only included in a SKU section. Just wondering if Wii Remote should indeed include pricing, and if so, where. Thanks! Fin©™ 11:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

It shouldn't have prices listed. Prices vary for everything for different countries. Wikipedia isn't a price guide, nor is it a comparision guide when it comes to prices. RobJ1981 (talk) 11:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:NOPRICES item 4 - X201 (talk) 11:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly what I thought. Thanks! Fin©™ 15:24, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Prices on the Virtual Console lists

So why are the prices listed on the all the pages listed at List of Virtual Console games? They fall under Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_directory- item 4. The prices of downloadable games certainly aren't notable at this time. This issue has been brought up several times (here, as well as the talk pages for the lists), and usually is forgotten or just dropped due to people getting frustrated with the situation (the previous discussions resulted in many people yelling at each other about prices being listed/not listed, edit wars, etc). The only progress that was ever made: a column was removed, because each type of game was the same price. I strongly still feel all the prices should be removed, due to the link I listed above. I would just be bold and remove the information, but I know it would be reverted pretty quick. Also, the same thing should apply to the other download service out now: Xbox Live Arcade. I looked at Playstation Network a bit, and didn't see any mass listings of prices, so I think that's the only one that we don't need to worry about. Can we make a decision on this, and make sure it stands? RobJ1981 (talk) 11:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I fully agree. They shouldn't be there. End of story. The fact that Falcon9x5's removal of prices on the Wii Remote article were reverted within 10 minutes shows the problem that will occur on every article that has a price on it. I know edits to revert vandalism don't count towards the 3 revert rule, how do we stand on reverts to enforce a WP policy? It will probably need a lot of people to enforce the removal of prices. But that is no reason why we should not do it. - X201 (talk) 12:19, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Additional - Having a Suggested Retail Price field in Template:Infobox Video game system is basically asking people to fall foul of WP:NOPRICES. - X201 (talk) 12:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what to do. Let's edit war for three months and have countless hours of discussion. Like last time. Why ask this question if you already know the answer? Dramatics? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SashaNein (talk • contribs)

Listing of the standard prices for various systems is wholly reasonable - i.e. the standard price of NES games is 500 Wii Points. Given that, noting deviations from this price is also reasonable, as thats significant. The easiest way to do that is with a table field, in which case we may as well list all the prices given that we have a field for it. Phil Sandifer (talk) 12:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Regular video games (that aren't downloads) have a standard price, as do many other items you can find for a Wikipedia article (book, CD, etc), but we certainly aren't going to list all those. The prices of games (like all other items for sale) differ depending on country, but we certainly aren't going to list that Resident Evil 5 is whatever price for America, while it's different in Europe. I don't see how a download service must violate the link I posted. The fact of the matter is the link I listed proves pricing (with a few exceptions, none of which downloads fall under) shouldn't be listed. There is nothing set in stone saying "prices will be listed forever" on the article. If I remember right, several of the people pushing for the pricing to be listed thought it was "useful" to see the prices, because they simply didn't want to visit the official Nintendo site to find the information. Laziness is not a reason to keep something. Perhaps these issues with pricing should be brought up to admins, or placed on a noticeboard for outside opinions. RobJ1981 (talk) 12:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

We had this discussion quite recently, and from I can remember, the consensus was that prices for each type of game would be listed (preferably in the lead. Like NES games are 500 Wii Points ect.) but not for individual games unless they are notably different in price (like Sin and Punishment, which is the most expensive because had to translate the game). --.:Alex:. 13:02, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

EDIT: I see the prices are in the section header. That's great! What's the point of having "NES games (500 Wii Points)" then listing every single one at "500 points"? --.:Alex:. 13:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

More specifically, yes, its ok to have a single statement that covers the ranges of typical prices (sourcing it); when the price of a game is significantly notable, it should be stated in the context of the game with sourcing of why that price is notable. Just being the highest priced game on the service is not sufficient, but if there's reasons why it was priced that high, then it can be included. Most games on these download services do not have such reasoning behind them, and thus the reason to exclude prices. --MASEM 13:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

At least with the Virtual Console, though, deviations from the prices are rare enough that it seems a genuinely interesting fact when they exist. Also, I don't find the RE5 comparison useful, because unlike retail market games, VC games do not decline in price over time. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

If they are rare enough to garner coverage in other media (more than just a passing comment that it costs XXXX points), then that can be included in the game's article. However, across all systems (Wii, 360, PSN) I've only ever seen a couple of games or DLC's price get more than a passing mention, most just accept that that is what it is and move on. --MASEM 15:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Voice talents' video game role credits deletion problem.

Somebody really needs to stop adding Devil May Cry 4 voice role for Kari Wahlgren. Kari Wahlgren only voiced the one for Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, not Devil May Cry 4. Stop adding that again and again and again when I'm trying to correct that link by deleting that. Stop it already! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patient Ascher (talk • contribs) 17:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Requests for assessment

I have moved the Requests for assessment from a section on Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Assessment to Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Requests for assessment, which is then transcluded back. The idea is that the rest of Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Assessment is vital project stuff and we shouldn't encourage so much traffic. Now it still looks the same, but your watchlist should only reflect changes to the Project's Assessment scheme itself, and the requests on a separate page. This didn't seem controversial to me, but I thought I should mention it here anyways. Cheers! ~ JohnnyMrNinja 18:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Though, upon reflection, perhaps it should be Assessment requests so the abbreviation won't be "RfA". ~ JohnnyMrNinja 18:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

How about Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Assessment/Requests? And yes, I'd agree with assesment requests rather than requests for assesment. Hope this helps. Gazimoff 19:58, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Partner peer review for Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe now open

The peer review for Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe, an article within the scope of the Military history WikiProject, is now open. The Military history WikiProject is currently partnering with our project to share peer reviews, so all editors are cordially invited to participate, and any input there would be very appreciated! Thanks! Kirill ^(prof) 20:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Guitar Hero series up on FTC

The Guitar Hero series is now a Featured Topic Candidate. --MASEM 03:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

System requirements scrollbox

The infobox for Assassin's Creed uses some HTML/CSS to get a scrollable box for the system requirements. I think this is a great solution that doesn't require the use of external tables and such. Would it be possible and agreeable to make this a standard feature of the infobox? Ham Pastrami (talk) 21:58, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd be okay with this, although I might prefer a toggle-able arrow (minimize/maximize). But this is decent, and it doesn't add a ton of kb to the article or anything silly like that. Randomran (talk) 22:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The only problem with this is that you cannot see all the information when printing. I have tried to approach people about making auto-hidden tables expand when printing but collapse during initial viewing but yet to get a confirmed solution for this. --MASEM 22:19, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Urgh, that's a case of when you need to put {{VG Requirements}} in. Seriously, that's a five-inch gap on my screen, and that throws presentation right out of the window, down a cliff and onto very hard and sharp rocks. That length of requirements should not be in the infobox. -- Sabre (talk) 10:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

The scrollbox was apparently removed. The version I was referring to is here:[3] Ham Pastrami (talk) 15:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

An exciting announcement and a disturbing one

Okay starting with the good:Every article listed at Unassessed video game articles has been acessed. But, a few months ago, the talkpage crashed and would not let anyone on the page. Just now, the mainpage of the project crashed and in un-excessible as of now.What the hell is goin on? Gears of War 2 23:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, the page is back up now. When the TP crashed, we thought it was of because the page was so long so we puched the archive time. But now that the project page crashed, should we asume that foul play is the case? Gears of War 2 23:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Gears, can you provide us with a link to the page in question? I'll try to take a look. Many thanks,Gazimoff 23:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The project page is the page I'm talking about. If you missed it then damn. But I swear, both the talkpage and the project page have crashed. Gears of War 2 23:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by "crashed"? What was it doing? — KieferSkunk (talk) — 05:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I have the same question. --SkyWalker (talk) 14:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing he ran into locked pages during db maintenance. Ham Pastrami (talk) 15:40, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

What I meant is that all the top buttons dissapeared(top buttons meaning "discussion" "edit this page" etc.), and everything on the page dissapeared except this: Gears of War 2 16:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedian for hire (no cash involved, of course)

Okay, so I know a lot of you all haven't seen me around too much except occasionally, and that's because I've been on an off-and-on wikibreak, mostly because I'm simply out of stuff that I want to do. I've been working on some lists like List of Sega Mega-CD games, but the repetitiveness involved just causes burnout, and I want to write an article again. But I don't know what to write. So instead, I want to do this:

I'm willing to work with someone to help them with an article, preferably something that is GA or FA-bound, but it really doesn't matter. I can copyedit well as a native English speaker and I'm a decent article writer, having written a GA, contributed to another, and written a FL. I'm not great at finding sources, but I do get by and can find some things here and there. Literally, I'm a bored Wikipedian who can't find something to keep going on, so I'm looking for job offers. Just post below what you might have for me to do, and I'll do whatever I think I'll like best. I don't need things like a barnstar for helping or anything, I just want to work on something, since I'm in between projects right now. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 05:15, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you seen WP:BOUNTY ? - X201 (talk) 07:59, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I have. I've also seen WP:RB (in fact I've even got something posted there). But I'm not really interested in the tasks I've seen there, which is why I've come to the community to ask if they need a hand. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 14:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I've worked a lot on the 4X article and have nominated it for featured status. If you have the stomach for it, pop over to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/4X. Any comment would be helpful to improve this article, even if you don't support FA status in its current state. Randomran (talk) 15:51, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll see if I can make a stop over there and take a look and see what I can do to leave some comments. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 17:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Also...

* List of characters from Sonic the Hedgehog (games) has been pretty heated for a while. I think they might need dispute resolution for the dispute resolution of the dispute resolution.

Yeah, and as a member of Wikiproject Sega, I should be more involved with this, but I don't do too much fiction work anymore. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 17:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

* There are a bunch of non-notable game mods that I've done some heavy google searches on. Some of them are borderline and need references. Some of them should be cleaned up or merged, and I think some of them should be deleted. I'm going through them a few at a time, but if you wanted to take a crack at it, I could use the help. Randomran (talk) 15:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't know about this, since I'm not really an expert on game mods, but I'll see what I can do. Red Phoenix ^{flame of life...protector of all...} 17:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

No problem. It's all voluntary, so take your pick, or find other fun things to do :) Randomran (talk) 17:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Nicktoons Unite!

Patrolling recent changes I found some anonymous edits made to Nicktoons Unite! article. As they were unexplained changes of content, I reverted them (with the proper edit summary). The same IP kept making changes (diffs [4], [5], [6], [7]). It may be sneaking vandalism, but I'm not familiar with the subject, so I couldn't say. I'm posting this notice in WikiProjects Nickelodeon, Video games and SpongeBob SquarePants so maybe somebody familiar with the subject can determine whether this is vandalism or not. --PeterCantropus (talk) 07:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is vandalism. User should be warned about doing so. MuZemike (talk) 16:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Copyeditors Unite!

(grin at previous section heading)

At Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Midtown Madness, a final copyedit to help get this over the line has been requested by Tony. If any of the VG "word-nerds" (:-)) are willing to help out here, it'd be much appreciated! (And of course, I'd be happy to do any reviewing (since my copyediting sucks) in exchange... heck, I'm happy to do it anyway!) Cheers. —Giggy 10:14, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

If we (the notorious grammar failures) are "word-nerds", I really wanna know what that makes Tony :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 15:51, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I never said he meant you ;-) (thanks heaps) —Giggy 15:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, still, as a whole I don't think Sandy and the FA-Gang consider us WP:VG busy-bodies exactly the most prose-astute :) 'Cept maybe Ash and Ando... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 15:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, David. I just try to read the text closely to find redundancies and inconsistencies. I'm not as good at it with my own work though—just look at all the work SSBM had to go through at FAC. Ashnard _Talk ^Contribs 16:28, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Xen Gamers and Arcadia

I found Xen Gamers via N-Europe [8] which they state Xen Gamers translated said article from an Japanese magazine named "Arcadia". While I doubt anyone here has that mag, does anyone know if XG was reliable? « ₣M₣ » 00:57, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Single game characters

OK, without bringing any extra baggage into this (I ask others to do the same), are characters from single games of a large series worth listing in a general character list? Is that appropriate for well managed articles and does it allow it to be complete without stepping over WP:NOT#IINFO? TTN (talk) 01:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Depends a lot on the nature of the list. An index of every character in a series with large casts full of minor characters that are nonetheless important can be useful; I'm thinking of fighting games or Suikoden here, for example. Alternately, a list of characters for a small, tightly-linked series should include one-game characters; .hack//sign and Xenosaga and Golden Sun and the FFVII blob come to mind.

When the series has a clear delineation between recurring main characters (playable characters and villains) and minor characters (everyone else), an index is of little use. I'm thinking of the Mario series in particular, in this case. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Basically what he said. It really depends on the character's importance in whatever title they appeared in rather than how many times they appeared. Fighting games tend to do that plenty: one-shot bosses can tend to be useless to even bother to list, but the rest of the cast is a different matter, and you'll tend to find with longer running series those characters referenced in later titles even though they themselves don't appear.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Simple English Wikipedia

Just posting here that if anyone's got the spare time, energy, and interest, they should consider coming over to the Simple English Wikipedia, to help expand what we have for articles and add on some more. If so, take a visit here. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:38, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I am seriously considering it. Looks like the Pokémon articles are in need of expansion. Artichoker[talk] 02:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

One of the best things about the Wiki is that because the gaming side is so under-developed, you'll almost definitely be able to find an article that may have otherwise been GA'd/FA'd here, and personally, I prefer building an article from the ground up, so I know exactly how it is, and what may or may not be wrong with it. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:42, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Yup. In anycase, I started editing the RB article. Artichoker[talk] 03:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds fun. I'll look into it as well.Evaunit♥666♥ 05:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Music credits being added to Designer

User Liontamer has been adding music credits to the Designer field of many infoboxes (including non-notable composers).[9] I'm not opposed to discussion of the game's music and notable credits within the article body, but this seems to be stretching the purpose of the infobox to include a special emphasis on music. Please discuss. Ham Pastrami (talk) 01:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Depends on the composer to my mind. I think, for instance, that Kondo is of sufficient importance to go in the infobox. I am more skeptical in most cases, however. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

It is my opinion that outright credits should be nuked completely from all Wikipedia gaming articles. Credits should only be given to the notable people in the production, typically those who have a track record of good things, and this should be done solely in the lead section. After that, the occasional credit should only go in where it is absolutely necessary to comprehending the article. Voice actors should not be credited unless it is in an article such as "List of <game> characters" or such. There are many better places if a person wants to obtain the credits list, and these should be linked to from the External Links section, if at all. Ong elvin (talk) 01:51, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

What? Why on Earth would we dump real-world information from an encyclopedia? Phil Sandifer (talk) 02:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Ong elvin is being perfectly sensible. Add notable people to the prose section of the article. The big problem with the infobox is that people see a category and decide that it must be filled-in without bothering to concider if the sound designer on Super Mario Bandicoot Battle Racers is really notable? - X201 (talk) 08:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey everyone: I'm a big video game music fan, and got into the habit of adding composers from seeing them credited in feature video game articles such as Final Fantasy VI. It was my understanding based on that that music designers were thus considered an important enough part of the creative process to merit infobox inclusion. In terms of adding NN composers, those happened to be only when they collaborated with a notable composer that I added. It didn't seem proper to only add 1 composer out of a team of, say, 4 just because the other 3 aren't as known. Regardless, the addition of any composers aren't meant to be a focus on music specifically at the expense or exclusion of other designers. It's simply that the music is my singular area of expertise. If I knew of other designers such as lead designers, character designers, scenario writers, etc., I would provide those as well, but I didn't believe I was obligated to know or provide that info. If anything, I was hoping other people would see the need to research and provide that information to compliment what I added so that other game articles mirrored the best articles. In any case, I'll continue to do what I can to add more, but will focus on the most notable/integral composers where the game and/or game soundtrack has been notably well-received and will try to avoid situations of adding NN/red-link names so that I don't run into this situation again. Hopefully that's satisfactory, but will watch to see what the response is. - Liontamer (talk) 02:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Putting music composers into the Game designer field is akin to listing types of sharks in a marsupial category. The job of composers on a games project is not to design games, but to compose tunes. Classifying them as designers is absolutely wrong. Jappalang (talk) 03:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

It still seems appropriate to allow the field into infoboxes - perhaps we should add an optional "composer" field for cases where the composer is notable. There are some other areas where this would make sense as well - I would, for instance, have no problem with Yoshitaka Amano being infobox level in the Final Fantasy games he worked on. He may not have been the overall game designer, but his particular creative vision and contribution is highly notable and significant, and it seems worthwhile to credit that at the infobox level. Perhaps a flexible "other creators" field could be added to the infobox to handle cases where there are creators worth crediting who did not handle the overall design of the game. Phil Sandifer (talk) 03:11, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

It is inappropriate. If there is a desire to add other sections of the development team, then create the relevant fields with appropriate links. A neurological surgeon would be insulted if an anaesthesiologist is listed as a neurological surgeon. It is not a wise idea to misrepresent professions to the readers. Jappalang (talk) 03:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

That's why I'm saying that we should have a flexible field that allows us to add particularly notable other creators to the infobox when necessary - there's no reason why Kondo or Amano would be classified as designers. But on the other hand, their contributions to the games they work on are significant enough, to my mind, to be in the infoboxes. Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the roles that an individual plays in creating a game is better expressed in prose. If you make an exception for music composers, then it stands to reason that all sorts of other staff, like artists, programmers, producers, etc. would also be deserving of mention, and perhaps more so. This is going to result in clutter as the infobox turns into a mini-credits list. Game designers may or may not be especially notable staffers -- if anything should be done to equalize the roles that these people have in creating games, I would vote to remove the Designer field. Ham Pastrami (talk) 03:42, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Except for a few exceptions (DragonQuest comes to mind), most games are associated with the designers of the game (Itagaki, Romero, Spector, etc). Game designers are more prominent when it comes to the production of the game. That said, I have no objection to removing the game designer field, or adding other staff member fields as long as the field correlates to the given profession. Jappalang (talk) 03:53, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree - designer should be the main field, in all infoboxes. On the other hand, there are a handful of other instances where someone else on the production team is also significantly notable and iconic. Kondo on Super Mario Bros, or Amano on Final Fantasy, for instance. In these cases I have no problems with an optional item in the infobox to cover them, separate from the main "designer" item. Phil Sandifer (talk) 04:03, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree, a "Notable staff" field would be a great addition to deal with situations like this. Let's try to make it happen. - Liontamer (talk) 04:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I also agree, especially for music video games like Dance Dance Revolution, where the sound designer is the biggest role in the game next to the director. Masem did a wonderful job overhauling the infoboxen last time I'd love to see the creator slot be made something dynamic... and repeatable as needed. --AeronPrometheus (talk) 06:20, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Worth repeating (and playing the devil's advocate), those are the rare exceptions. DragonQuest was more known for featuring Akira Toriyama's distinctive character designs. However, the majority of games are associated with their designers or companies. Does the infobox need more fields to be filled up with non-notable staff members despite everyone's best efforts to exclude? With only one game designer field, we can effectively exclude non-game designers on principle. However, if there are fields for other staff members, what are the chances of there being edit wars over who gets into these fields, or an infobox 6 ft long? Jappalang (talk) 12:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm for removing the whole field. Who decides whether one of the staff members is "notable" or not? Hironobu Sakaguchi was credited on all Final Fantasy games from I to XI, but his importance gradually diminished with each installment... but at which point did he become "not important"? I think there's too much POV involved in deciding who's notable enough to be listed in that infobox field. The article's lead and development/history section do a better job at describing the designers' roles IMO (Final Fantasy XI#Development explains Sakaguchi's role in that game for instance). Kariteh (talk) 08:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Several articles use it, though, so removing it completely isn't feasible. Gary King (talk) 08:45, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict but I'll post it anyway) It's also very POV to consider the mere supervisors of Chrono Trigger "designers" but not the story planner of the game (who really was the story writer in this case). Kariteh (talk) 08:45, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Story writer are generally in a class of their own. They generally do not take up roles in dictating the way a game should be played. One might argue that for JRPGs, the story is the game, but the counterargument is that the story could be told with any other game engine (i.e. the gameplay did not depend on the story; it was the experience that depended on it). Jappalang (talk) 12:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

And, again, there are cases where a story designer is clearly significant. I'm shocked that The Dig doesn't mention Orson Scott Card in its infobox. This is, to my knowledge, the only video game that he has worked on, and he's a double Hugo and Nebula-award winning sci-fi author. That is infobox level significance. We really need to revise the infobox so that, when there are clear cases of a significant and notable creator in a role other than designer, these can be included. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I would really like to see a "Composer(s):" and "Writer(s):" field in the infoboxes. Neither of these are categorically game designers, and they should not be included in the "Designer(s):" field. Many composers have started in video games before moving to TV and film (Michael Giacchino, Jesper Kyd) or simply have a lot of work as only composers in the industry (Jeremy Soule). Likewise, writers of video games are often professional authors these days, such as 7th Guest's Matthew J. Costello and Half-Life's Marc Laidlaw. I'm all for adding these two entries, which would provide a reasonable level of real-world information in the infobox for the actual individuals who worked on the game beyond the technical side of it. Story and music have become increasingly important in making games, it seems a bit off not to include them in the infobox. Yes, they should be covered in the prose, but I see no harm in adding two optional entries to the infobox. Arguments that it will make the infobox too long seem trivial to me: we're only talking two lines on most articles, although it should be limited to notable writers and composers, as it is for designers. Otherwise, we're going to have musicians and writers put into the designer fields, and that is misleading for the reader. -- Sabre (talk) 09:37, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

What about character designers? Also, role-playing games usually require much more than two lines in the infobox, see Final Fantasy XI or other articles of that kind. Besides, it's often unclear whether the producers or executive producers of a game are "notable" or not. Kariteh (talk) 09:51, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Character designers still fall under game designers. If characters are notable to have their own articles, then they have their own infobox with access to "created by" and "designed by" fields. As far as FFXI goes, thats a good example of overpopulating it. I personally prefer only the key lead designers in the field, those who oversee everything, as if you list those of oversee particular areas as in FFXI it gets stupid. ie, Chris Taylor for Supreme Commander, Tim Willits for Doom 3, Robin Walker and John Cook for Team Fortress 2, Chris Metzen and James Phinney for StarCraft. Its a matter of reading the credits and picking out the central one or two people who sub-designers (ie for art, characters, etc) would report to, usually listed as "lead designer(s)" or "project lead", so on and so forth, who generally reside near the top of the credits list. -- Sabre (talk) 11:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

POV and cherry-picking. Kariteh (talk) 12:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

From Game designer, "A video or computer game designer develops the layout, concept and gameplay of a video or computer game. This may include playfield design, specification writing, and entry of numeric properties that balance and tune the gameplay." Character designers are not game designers. The chief import of a game designer is the game (gameplay). Character designers are classified with the arts (graphics) department. Jappalang (talk) 12:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Neither of you addressed the producers and executive producers issue. Sometimes they are involved in the game's development, sometimes their role is more distant or even just nominal... Where do we draw the line? Kariteh (talk) 13:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, if all you're going to say is "POV and cherry-picking", don't bother saying anything. The whole damn thing is someone's opinion in someway: some people will want to include this information, others don't. As far as producers go, deal with it on a case by case basis. If sources can show they are heavily involved in a game's development, then include them. If sources don't show that or show they're sitting behind a desk getting fat on the revenues, don't include them. Development, preview and interview sources often point to key people in a project, giving indications to the roles of producers in the process. -- Sabre (talk) 13:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that is dependent on the editor. Companies do harp publicity on a game due to its association with a big-name designer. The producer (or director) might have participated in the design, assumed a supervisory role, or just twiddled his thumbs. Like S@bre said, one would have to use his or her judgement. If there are sufficient sources proving that the big-name did nothing, then he can be left out of the designer field. Jappalang (talk) 22:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Let me through out another option: remove the names of any developers or other creative people from the infobox. This is not meant to be a harsh change, but the fact that the infobox should be only listing at-a-glance technical elements that are common across all games. VGs are not like movies where there's always a director and the like, so trying to always classify the key creative elements within the infobox across all games will be difficult. Mind you, in this case, I would strongly suggest that key names be added to the Lead and Development sections so they are still given their appropriate due. --MASEM 15:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

There's a case to be made for it, but I'm really loathe to take out major pieces of real-world information like that. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:06, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I think Masem and Ong are missing an important element here: the lead is not for throwing random information in which never appears again. The lead should summarize the entire article, so if the designers are talked about in the development section they can be mentioned in the lead, but chucking stuff out of the infobox on a whim that "this doesn't work for every game" is in a word, "stoopid". Why are we having this discussion? Because one user added the wrong person to one field? Than add another one! Good god, I would think an award-winning composer belongs in the infobox more than the fucking inputs, screen resolution and system requirements. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 15:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I would pretty well support removing aspect ratio, controls, ESRB ratings (yuck!), system requirements, and media. But that's another story. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

David Fuchs raises an interesting point here. We may well have too much technical stuff in our infobox, at the expense of information that is of interest to people who have not and may never play these games - the very people we should be writing for (herein referred to as "outsiders" for convenience). Going quickly through the infobox fields from the perspective of someone who have not and may never play a game:

• width - what's this field for anyway?
• title - Knowing what the title is is generally useful.
• image - Box art's always good, no argument here.
• caption - Caption for box art, generally useful if it says something other than "North American box art".
• aspect ratio - Unlikely to be any use to someone outside of the video games community
• resolution - Likewise, unlikely to be any use to someone outside of the video games community
• developer - Necessary for comprehensive coverage
• publisher - Generally necessary for comprehensive coverage
• distributor - Generally necessary for comprehensive coverage if distributors differ from developer and publisher
• designer - Useful to provide real-world information on key individuals.
• license - Not widely used, but useful when subjects are freeware or shareware
• series - Useful to link to an overall series article
• engine - Not too useful for outsiders, but helpful if engine is notable.
• version - Mostly irrelevant to outsiders, they aren't going to care much about a couple of meaningless numbers
• released - Useful to show release date, necessary for comprehensive coverage.
• genre - Helpful in a quick scan to show what type of game it is
• modes - Only two possible inputs here, helpful for an at-a-glance look, but should be in lead anyway.
• ratings - Potentially useful for at-a-glance look, as it suggests to a reader what sort of content could be in the game.
• platforms - Necesssary for comprehensive coverage.
• media - Limited choices, generally dictated as to the above field. Outsiders aren't going to care much.
• requirements - Also of very limited interest to outsiders, although readers can draw conclusions from the technology in the game, but only if they understand any of it
• input - Defined by the platform in use, very limited (generally either keyboard and mouse, gamepad, steering wheel or joystick. Of very limited interest to outsiders.

We have plenty of fields there that are more stacked to the gamer's view of things, as opposed to a general view of things, and in the general view of people who have not and may never play these games, information on real people who work on these products is likely to be more valuable than a load of techno-mumbo-jumbo they may not understand. Why do you think that {{Infobox Film}}, {{Infobox Television}}, {{Infobox Book}} are filled with more information regarding who put work into it than what technicalities are in the product? Some technical information should be included, yes, but not at the expense of removing the human element. I'm going to have a go at modifying the infobox in my sandbox to add two fields: one for composer, and another for writer - the two key roles in most modern games that aren't usually filled with designers. If you think the infobox will be made too long, you've got plenty of fields of little real interest to outsiders to choose from that we can lose in place of adding the new ones! -- Sabre (talk) 16:21, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we should start a new section on a general revision of the infobox. For instance, I'd love to argue for screenshots being preferable to box art as images go. :) Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps infobox discussion would be fine, but my point is the infobox is not supposed to have every flippin' field filled out; it's ugly, for one, and it's rather pointless, for another. For Riven, there is a caption for the box art, as well as information on the game designer because it is notable and is discussed in the article. Whenever I get around to improving Uru: Ages Beyond Myst, I'll leave the game engine in the infobox because it was a significant departure from the technology of previous Myst games. Halo 3 has the resolution because there was significant coverage that it only ran at 640p rather than true 720p HD rez. There are a few, such as version, which I don't feel are that important, but doesn't it make sense to leave as many possibly useful fields in the infobox or add those that could be useful (such as composers, general designers, et al.) for certain games? After all, the infobox is for all video games, and it should be able to be customized for any and all games as well. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 16:27, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but there's got to be some measure of norming - are there more than, say, 50 games for which we'll want resolutions listed in the infobox for? It might be better to just have a few "custom" fields at the bottom for the really exceptional stuff. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:30, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Masem. It's enough that we have a Developer field (note that other media don't have the benefit of this). Individual personalities can be called out in the prose, if they are similarly noted by the press. ALL of the information in the infobox is real-world. It's not like we are dumping this info in favor of a list of power-ups. So I don't see how that is a concern. The fact that the infobox is for all games suggests to me that the fields it contains should apply to at least the large majority of games. Otherwise we are customizing the infobox to support one-off features for a small handful of games. That is bloat. I also have to play the reality check card here -- no game staffer has the same iconic status as other media personalities. Will Wright does not compare to Steven Spielberg. John Carmack does not compare to Brad Pitt. Nobuo Uematsu does not compare to John Williams. Game credits are primarily for the gratification of VG fans, not for the benefit of the general encyclopedia-reading public. All we need is to attribute authorship, and the Developer field does a perfectly adequate job of that. Ham Pastrami (talk) 10:25, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course you can't compare Will Wright and John Carmack to Brad Pitt and Steven Spielberg, they're completely different. Carmack is closer to a scientist than an actor. Credits provided in the infobox aren't for "gratification" if these people are independently notable, in which case it does benefits the encyclopedia-reading public to have links to these people in the infobox. We need to look at the VG industry as a whole, some of these people have been highly influencial in that and the general computer industry. Their celebrity status is irrelevant. Others are notable authors in their own right, or are established soundtrack composers. As pointed out by David Fuchs, some of these people are award-winning individuals. If anything, the amount of technical crud in the infobox is far more for the "gratification of VG fans" than a couple of notable designers who have been influencial on the industry, a professional author with work outside of video games and an award-winning composer with work outside of video games, simply because there's a good chance that the "general encyclopedia-reading public" isn't going to understand any of it - just because someone knows where the "on" button is on their computer doesn't mean that they know what a 256 MG Ram is, what a native resolution of 640p means, or what significance version 1.043 is, but our infobox happily assumes they do. Now, I'm not proposing we remove those fields, but the addition of two extra fields, one for composer and another for writer, which like the designer field should only be used when their occupants are notable, is not going to hurt, its not going to degrade the infobox, its not going to be adding mindless trivia with no context, and its not going to make the infobox too long. If you see non-notable people in the designer field in articles, remove them. -- Sabre (talk) 11:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposal

A rough outline of what I have in mind, adapted from the current Supreme Commander infobox. Two extra fields, one for composer, one for writer. Supreme Commander was used since it was the closest game I had to hand that had a notable lead designer and a notable composer. Note that in practice, the writers field would not be used in the Supreme Commander article, as these two guys aren't notable and as such are little more than trivia. They're only filled in to show you what it looks like. Only Chris Taylor, one of the top 30 influencial people in the industry according to GameSpy (and I dare say other publications as well), and Jeremy Soule, a BAFTA award-winning composer with extensive work within the video games industry would be displayed.

I must emphasise this: any implementation of composer and writer fields, as well as current implementation of the designer field, should really be enforced to keep entries in these fields confined to notable people. Such enforcement seems like a reasonable compromise to me: between removing the technical stuff and removing the people stuff. -- Sabre (talk) 11:25, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Looks good. I hope you do not mind my adding an artist field for the character designers and other artists. This field is more likely to be used for the Japanese games (DragonQuest, and Lost Odyssey come to mind). Jappalang (talk) 22:04, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Anyone else in support or opposing these suggestions? It would be best to bash out all concerns before offering them on Template talk:Infobox VG for implementation. Jappalang (talk) 13:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Since there's been no further comments, I assume there's no major revisions or opposition, and the concept of requiring some significant notability for the fields' entries is respectable by those who have misgivings about the "people" fields. I'll move this to Template talk:Infobox VG tommorrow, request implementation and update the documentation and Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Templates to reflect the above concept. -- Sabre (talk) 10:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

May I ask why the fields read 'Designed by', 'written by', et al, instead of the current Designer(s), Composer(s), whatnot? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 12:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It just struck me as slightly better presentation than a sea of "something(s)". -- Sabre (talk) 12:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

eh, it just seems to me just as bad, except with more redundancies. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 12:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Fine, changed back to how it is currently. -- Sabre (talk) 14:26, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

a thought occurred to me- does any template wizard know if it can be made to say "developer" usually and "developers" if there's a br/ in the text field? (aka if there's more than one) --PresN (talk) 21:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Not possible without StringFunctions, which are not installed on Wikimedia wikis. --Izno (talk) 00:50, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Take note that the new fields are now in place to be used. Jappalang (talk) 01:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Awesome work, Sabre! - Liontamer (talk) 14:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah! Now if someone would just remove all the OCReMix spam links you add to VG music articles! ZeaLitY [ DREAM - REFLECT ] 05:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

*Sigh* Do exact titles and roles still need to be indicated in parentheses or not? Kariteh (talk) 22:13, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Not like that, no, that's how the fields shouldn't be used. I'd personally do it like this: The designer field should only contain Motomu Toriyama, and if they insist on it and can prove that he's been active in the game's development, Yoshinori Kitase. A quick note in small brackets should say he's the producer. The writer field isn't needed, because the same guy's already in the designer field. Third one, is Tetsuya Nomura the main art design person? If not, he probably shouldn't be there. The other guy doesn't have an article, so his notability is even more doubtful and shouldn't be there either. The composer field simply needs to ditch the brackets. The only ones of those that should have brackets in my mind should be the designers, to differenciate the lead designer from the producer, if the producer is necessary. -- Sabre (talk) 22:31, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

By the way, there are cases where there are two designers with equal importance on the game development, but only one of them is notable as far as blue links are concerned. This article in particular. Is it okay to list the two designers? Kariteh (talk) 22:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

That's fine in my view, otherwise you may be giving undue weight to what one guy did on a game when others helped him in the same thing. In the same vein it would be wrong of me to remove James Phinney from StarCraft, as otherwise it would imply Chris Metzen, the notable designer, created the game and its universe by himself. -- Sabre (talk) 22:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

More on Blue Dragon

Okay, Blue Dragon just went through a huge GA review and I am not very good at fixing the problems listed. I need some serious help. Please, someone with a bit more experience help me out with some of the more difficult fixes. Help would really be appriciated. King Rock (Gears of War) 18:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

For a start I suggest you mark your fixes as {{done}} on the GA review, anyone coming along and trying to help out is going to get lost immediately. From a quick glance it's the plot which is going to be problematic, the text itself needs work and citations are going to be difficult to get without playing through the game and making notes of conversations. That said, there is an IGN guide here which may come in handy, and perhaps transcripts can be found to take quotes from? I'll take a peck at a few of these issues, but the plot section is going to be the sticking point. Someoneanother 22:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

UGH, the first thing I came to fix was already done in the article, I'm sitting this one out till they're marked. Someoneanother 22:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, my bad; I have gone back and marked the ones which have been done. Note that there may not still be an exact mapping between the comments and the current version, though, because, for example, "the first paragraph" may have become the second paragraph in a section. --Slordak (talk) 19:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll take a look at it when I get a minute. Someoneanother 00:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Smash Bros. characters shouldn't be linked together via template?

Alright, the old character template here Template:Super Smash Bros. fighters was supposedly merged with this one here Template:Super Smash Bros. series. Yet apparently there was a discussion to not keep any of the characters listed because beyond the game "they aren't linked to each other".

Now the last I checked crossover fighters were generally regarded as being "in their own continuity" in the case of series, and SSBM does show there is some semblance of continuity maintained albeit in bits in the Subspace Emissary hubub. So first off, where did this discussion take place exactly? And has anyone really considered the fact a template that lists only three games that are going to end up mentioned in the respective articles isn't much of a template to begin with?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 01:56, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Merge this with above discussion? Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 02:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

TTN's refering to something completely different actually.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:15, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Last time I try serious discussion at 2AM, then... Haipa Doragon (talk • contributions) 02:40, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

There used to be links to the playable characters section in the SSB article on the template, but that got taken off a while back over complaints about linking sections in Navboxes (or something like that, I'm actually not too sure, and I don't even know if that's still the case). See here. ^TH1RT3EN _{talk ♦ contribs} 02:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Very odd case then. I've never seen a similar complaint brought up elsewhere yet.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:15, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Well honestly, I don't see a need for either templates. The Smash Bros. fighters aren't really related to each other, apart from the Super Smash Bros. series so the template is unnecessary, and the other template listing the games is simply redundant of what is already probably mentioned in the respective articles. Artichoker[talk] 02:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I recall there being a few complaints brought up about the SSB fighters template, but it generally boiled down to, we didn't want to put the nav template on forty-plus articles (and list sections like Roy (Fire Emblem) links to) and it didn't make sense to have a nav template link to articles that didn't themselves have the same nav template on them. Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is a somewhat more extreme example of why this is probably not a good idea. Nifboy (talk) 15:35, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

To me, the issue is simpler than all of this - none of these characters have Smash Bros as their main franchise, and thus this is not a useful organizational template. Especially because WP:CLN already says that this would be an inappropriate use of a series box - it should just be a category. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:37, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Japanese / English titles

Hi! I was just wondering, what are the guidelines on language differences of video game titles? I looked Mobile Suit Gundam: Target in Sight up but on Wikipedia it is under Mobile Suit Gundam: Crossfire. My guess is, it's an original Japanese title, so that should be its article name... On the other hand, this is the English language Wikipedia, so that could be the norm too. Any thoughts? --Soetermans | is listening | what he'd do now? 15:38, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Whatever it is most known as in English. Failing that, whatever the article was originally at (The "stop moving it" principle). Redirects are both cheap and your friends. I think Crossfire is the US title, and quite frankly I'd sooner eat my hat than try and have that discussion again. Nifboy (talk) 15:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Its basically the first released english region title, ie crossfire in North America, unless the popularity of the second english region is clearly more notable then the first. Salavat (talk) 16:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up! --Soetermans | is listening | what he'd do now? 01:40, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Secret of Evermore's infobox is eating the table of contents

Hellup :( For some reason the table of contents has been absorbed by the infobox, I can't see anything that would cause this. Would someone take a look? Someoneanother 16:48, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I've taken a look, but I can't see a problem myself. Have you tried a different browser/computer? If you're still getting the same problem, could you post a screenshot of the problem? Many thanks, Gazimoff 16:54, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I did a manual fix. The problem seems to be Template:Vgratings is messed up, and is devouring the table of contents because of the headers in the template itself.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 16:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Seems the issue resolved itself anyway. Someone protected the template (I don't really understand why given it wasn't being edited but I digress) and ended up undoing a change that caused the glitch in it in the first place, so this is resolved completely now.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 17:08, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

My hero :) TY Someoneanother 17:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC) And yourself Gazimoff. Someoneanother 17:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, that explains it. There's been some work protecting heavily used templates after a recent spate of issues. Gazimoff 17:35, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

TTN, a public word before you start diving in

After seeing this on a quick glance I have to say this, there's no way in hell every Soul Calibur character and every Darkstalker character fails notability. Merging all of that into one pile is beyond detrimental for starters, we still haven't even gotten the messes cleaned up from every other similar event. The Darkstalkers characters all have design evolution and similar up to high heaven from the three All About books related to the games, have been readily discussed in many formats and have promotional material that can be cited for each. The Soul Calibur characters, half of them tops can be made into good articles with work: here you say every single article should be merged because you (and I quote) "can't imagine any of these characters actually establishing any sort of notability", which is really funny because I found plenty to discuss reception for Ivy in 30 minuites and I still haven't worked it all into that article.

All of these articles that can be salvaged need improvement, citation, and actual research done to set up notability. You seem more interested on the other hand to sweep the characters into lists and make them as little informative as possible, and frankly I'm really tired of that approach. This isn't the Sonic characters. This is another Template:Pokémon directory or List of characters in The King of Fighters series or so on fiasco waiting to happen where it all gets dumped into the toilet so people have to sort it out afterwards and it informs nobody about anything.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to be using merge tags, so its not like I'm going to be merging them randomly. Anyways, while your efforts to improve articles like these have been good, most of the information really doesn't establish notability. Maybe its just me, but (using the above as one example) trivial things like obscure video game awards, an even more trivial nomination for an award, comments from bloggers (while the articles themselves can be used in cases, when was it decided that their opinions matter?), and the like really don't cut it in making a character stand out from thousands of others. Another is Poison (Final Fight), where if the OOU information is trimmed and neatened up, it would fit nicely elsewhere. Maybe I just have overly high standards, though. TTN (talk) 23:26, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

TTN, and to all others (including me) who go through the cruft: 9 times out of ten the article deserves to be merged or burned by fire, but just as much as it's important to be objective (and being an outsider to the series helps with that), we should also remember that sometimes those who are familiar with the series will know how to find sources or know how the element/character is notable far better than the person who does a quick search and read-through. Just an interjection. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 00:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll be the first to admit I don't really care for articles on characters known primarily for fanservice. I have a rather cynical view on the subject matter, though (Bloodrayne in Playboy, lol. Way to trump up a mediocre game with sex sells). Nifboy (talk) 00:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

It is no longer Rayne alone who made it into Playboy. A nameless templar from Hellgate: London was even its centerfold once. Furthermore, Ivy (SoulCalibur), Rachel (Ninja Gaiden), Kasumi (Dead or Alive), and two more video vixens were mentioned in a recent article on video games. I am uncertain if the article is of a tone suitable for encylopaedic content though. Jappalang (talk) 00:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

TTN, My apologies then, after the KoF fiasco I'm a bit gun shy about mass merges. But I do think you place the bar too high: a character that isn't as popular as Mario isn't going to have the same level of content to discuss them, so the alternative ends up to prove the character is discussed in proper context by enough noteworthy sources (there's other stuff I'm working in that particular article like EGM, just have to find the article issue #s...plus having to find stuff to cite for other parts of the articles content and chop down that big ass plot section). I'm just interested in giving people a solid discussion of a character or subject that informs them fully, and lists tend to chop some of that out.

Though I do agree with Nifboy, writing an article and realizing the most reception the character has is over fanservice kinda sucks...--Kung Fu Man (talk) 01:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not looking for the cultural impact of Mario, but I am looking for something similar to Master Chief (Halo) (the same context, not actual size). It separates itself from the series and actually asserts it is something. Most of these fighting game characters outside of Ryu and some other primary SFII characters really are just centered in the games. One list for a series to give an overview of the characters should be fine while letting the single games cover all of the plot. Going back to Poison (Final Fight), trim the real world information, cut the design and gameplay sections (I don't know how those can be called anything other than cruft), and then place the RWI and basic plot information into a list section. There is a nice concise entry with real world information to establish notability for a list (or a series article in the case of Final Fight). TTN (talk) 19:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Um, TTN? Master Chief is a mascot, and one for Microsoft's console to boot. Of course he's going to land up with more than almost any other character and covered more: Microsoft pimps like no other. Comparing any character from either series to him and expecting the same level of coverage or you shove it on a list is pretty outright...well, ludicrous. It doesn't pay EGM or such to talk about one of those characters as much as it does Master Chief, that's common sense. Also since you keep circling the wagon, a merge proposal was already suggested for Poison's article back when it wasn't good and said proposal failed. Additionally the article itself made it to GA easily thanks in a huge part to User:Jonny2x4's help. What you call "cruft" is cited, and handled a heck of a lot more neatly than similar video game FA's. So my only concern with it is to get it copyedited, tidied up, and set up for FA if I can, then move on to other articles. Really, please start looking around at some of these articles that are FAs and GA and can maintain it.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

As I said, the point was context, not the size of the information. The article contains information that separates it from the series, which is what actually establishes notability. The merge proposal was a one way merge tag and two posts on the wrong talk page, so that's not really relevant. Reaching GA status isn't exactly always a true affirmation of quality. How does the fact that you cited a few screen shots and pieces of art make the section any less crufty? A quick little blurb on appearance is acceptable, but three paragraphs giving every little piece of clothing and trivial information like measurements is just unnecessary. Quickly describing how the character fights (fighting style and weapon) is one thing, but going over specific techniques and moves is just game guide material. Maybe some others can comment on that. TTN (talk) 20:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I doubt this will do any good given the track record, I'll be quick to point out the details in design that the Master Chief article you cited (going so far as to cite what he looks like outside of armor). That's important enough to discuss to someone looking for information on a character. Additionally his measurement to note are also cited (and for female characters, three sizes are usually readily presented and a good means to compare two characters visually. Crap like weight isn't however, which you'll note I didn't put in). Also to counter your point about the gameplay, I draw a comparison to Link (Legend of Zelda), which discusses the character in the context of his plot, which fits as Link is a plot-based character. Poison however is a fighting game character: thus the point is better suited to discuss gameplay without digging into gameguide material, as the real world point of the character is to introduce her high heel into the opponent's jawline, not go through various storyline points.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Other than the unnecessary specific height and weight details, that's a fine amount of detail (especially given the context of it). Now, if it detailed every facet of the armor within three paragraphs instead of just describing it as heavy, that would be too much. Am I missing some sort of extraneous details somewhere? I don't know about other people, but I never count Link as a FA. It's just a relic from our past standards that has managed to slip under the radar (only a couple people commented on the 2007 FAR). It really isn't good to compare anything to it. Anyways, the fact that she uses a whip and handcuffs as weapons and jumps around acrobatically is fine. However, naming specific attacks with no context, commenting on how she steals weapons, commenting on immobilizing enemies, and going into detail about a super move is just too much. TTN (talk) 21:34, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

This is pointless. Either way I'm continuing on and getting it to FA and I'll just step over you when I need to since reasoning is failing. You might have the best intentions in mind, but you really end up too convinced your approach is the only right one. Well so be it. If you're certain about Link I'd suggest shoving it for FAR and see how that goes. In the meanwhile I'm just going to apologize for wasting everyone's time and just keep working. Ciao.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I wish you wouldn't do this. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Care to be a bit more specific? TTN (talk) 21:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Notability merges on fictional articles are controversial at present. Personally, as someone who actually uses Wikipedia as a resource for academic scholarship in this area, slashing down our depth of information is a serious problem. Phil Sandifer (talk) 22:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

There are always Wikias to provide this information. I was both pleasently delighted and pleased to learn the level of detail on The Abridged Series over at the Yugioh Wikia, after a long and very persistent campaign to keep it offof here. hbdragon88 (talk) 02:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

There are sometimes Wikias. Phil Sandifer (talk) 02:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

In all honesty, the wikias are pretty bad and have little if no quality control. Case in point one Capcom wikia which covers various Final Fight characters...yet the whole bundle of information even posted there is completely fabricated and fan fiction. They're outright terrible to refer people to and you're just sweeping an issue under the rug by doing it in the long run.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree, the Wikia's are absolutely atrocious. Indepenent wiki's on the series are usually much, much better. --.:Alex:. 19:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Working on the Soul Calibur character articles, could use some resources

I'm trying to organize and hammer Amy (Soul Calibur), Charade (Soul Calibur), Ivy (Soul Calibur), Necrid, Talim and Tira into good character articles (and yeah they're at various stages, there's been an anon being a pain about some bits and I've spread myself a little thin to counteract a merge proposal/TTN's ambition.

But as it stands I could use some resources not readily in my grasp, namely magazine-based reception material, design notes (Ivy doesn't need either as much, but the others do), and notes on their gameplay, including bits from player's guides that I can cite for aspects of it (such as something describing Necrid's Void cannon, or the enemy-only forms Charade ends up taking, like the legs version in SCII's Weapon Master mode).

Can anyone lend a hand with resources they might have on hand?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Input on recreated article

I just noticed a new article, Glider (bot), which isn't too different from an article deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Glider (MMORPG bot). It's not an exact recreation—it seems to cover some of the same material, but focuses more on the lawsuit and is better referenced. Just throwing it out there for a wider opinion. Pagrashtak 13:15, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it should be merged into World of Warcraft. --.:Alex:. 14:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

If they can build it up from that into a full article and maintain that quality, all well and good, as the prose there isn't that bad and as said its reasonably well referenced. However, if that's all the real-world information to say on the subject, I'd merge it with World of Warcraft, there's enough there to add an extra section to World of Warcraft's development section. -- Sabre (talk) 14:37, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

There's actually quite a bit of coverage about this program on sites like Wired, CNET, Ars Technica, etc. I think this article shouldn't be deleted. JACOPLANE • 2008-08-4 16:55

I added a load of sources to the talk page. Take your pick from those. They range from semi-reliable to pretty durn reliable. Protonk (talk) 04:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Request for some more opinions in a survey

Would some more people be able to give there opinions on whether or not Kirby Super Star Ultra should have its own article. Right now it seems that only one person wants to keep the articles merged, and I want to see what the greater population of the Video Game Wikiproject think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kirby_Super_Star#Survay_for_seprating_the_articles --Drkirby (talk) 17:45, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

How can I upgrade Dance Praise to B-class?

I think the header says it all. I was just wondering what steps had to be taken to upgrade this article to B-class. Thanks! LetsGo67 (talk) 23:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

There are no specific steps, you just have to improve the overall state of the article. Suggestions: get rid of excessive sectioning, especially the one-line sections. Collapse them into readable paragraphs of flowing prose. Try to reduce the article's dependence on primary sources. Remove or rephrase ad-like claims. Remove original research or find sources to verify it. Remove or integrate trivia. Add some real-world information about the series' development and/or reception. Ham Pastrami (talk) 00:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

More interview > reliable source? 'fun'

I posted at the reliable sources board about this but everyone's enjoying their weekend (why didn't I think of that?) and nobody's responding. I'm building an article about the casual game Chocolatier, and want to use at least one (preferably two) blog-posted interviews for the development section. [10] [11] The problem I've got is that the more 'reliable' interviews (3 of) are good for nothing more than a sentence each, whereas these blogs actually discuss the development in a way you'd expect serious journalists to. Seeing as the article could easily be a GA with the exception of these, I'm annoyed. Is using these sources going to cause a problem or no? Someoneanother 18:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

An interview is an interview. If the person being interviewed was in any way being misrepresented, something probably would have been done. The only real question is, "Is this blog so unreliable that they might have made up this interview completely?" If people still contest it, I'm sure it'd be possible for a representative of the game to say if the interview is reliable or not. But seriously, an interview is an interview. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 18:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Blogs are unreliable sources and should not be used on Wikipedia. There is no way to tell whether the blogger really interviewed the developer or not. Weirdo with a Beardo (talk) 19:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

In all honesty that is an incredibly ignorant thing to say. Magazines and sites such as IGN will not cover some subjects as it does not pay for them to do so, while a reliable blog will. In many cases, a blogs end up being the only coverage for some material, and should not be completely disregarded.

As it stands, Gamer-Girl.org is referenced in one book according to Google Books, and this is the editor of the website doing the interview. It looks fine to me to use as a resource for the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kung Fu Man (talk • contribs)

Being cited by one reliable source is not a sure gauge to proving the site's reliability. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 50#Help my edits are being reverted. Weirdo with a Beardo (talk) 20:06, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Unless the interview is saying something spectacularly controversial, I think it's fair game, simply due to the nature of the beast; the only way for the interview to be "wrong" in some sense is for it to have been faked, which the only motive I can think of for doing so is as part of a smear campaign, which I doubt is the case here. In the case of Gamer-girl, other developers have linked back to interviews done there. Nifboy (talk) 20:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no way to know whether it's been faked or not, because it is an unreliable source. Even interviews with actual photos of the developer and interviewer are removed on sight when the source is considered unreliable (there is no way to tell whether the photos have been photoshopped or not, after all). Weirdo with a Beardo (talk) 20:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it is a reliable source for interviews, because the subjects of other interviews at the site have linked to that site saying "Hey, here's an interview I did", per my links above. Nifboy (talk) 20:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

As someone who's conducted paid video game interviews for years (and still continue to do so), I have to say that a blog is not inherently unreliable - plenty of reliable people in the industry have their own blogs to put up their own content as well. What the issue is, is if the person that runs the blog is unknown and whether the interview can satisfy everyone's validation requirements. I.E. can it be verified that it did take place, that no content was changed against the subject's wishes, etc. etc. With that in mind, I'm almost wondering if some sort of "Fact Checking Task Force" might be useful under the video games project. There's so many of us here that are routinely running off to check on references, look for references, check on their validity, etc. etc. it might be nice to organize it all as a task force that a)Checks the validity of proposed references, and b)Routinely goes through articles that fall under the project to provide references/citations for tagged passages, or removes the section if none can be found. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 20:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

(Everyone's time is appreciated). Let's make this simpler, forget the Pretty Sassy blog, Gamer Girl contains the details I need. It's been quoted in a single source as pointed out by Nifboy, two interviewees have linked back to their interviews and have made no disapproving noises. Moonpod (developers of Mr. Robot are interviewed (no link back that I can see), but they link to their review on the site. Tanya interviewed Michael McCoy, an industry veteran, who also happens to be a member of staff at her University. None of this smacks of a site which cannot be trusted to print interviews, which is all I'm asking of them. Someoneanother 00:05, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Post it. I've authored a few featured articles, and many of them drew from at least one unreliable source, whether a self-published interview on a developer's website, a fan site that delved deeper than any trade publication would on something notable, or even poorly-translated Japanese press releases. I even contacted one of the developers for The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest to clarify some points of an article when writing that one. In each case I understood the information to be totally reliable, even if it went against Wikipedia policy to post it. At best, not including these would lead to citation neededs that might even prevent FA status. At worst, the information itself would not be included because of the lack of citations, and thus the article would, in spirit or in actuality, fail the comprehensiveness requirement of a Featured Article.

For instance, Chrono Trigger had a beta version. It's notable: the beta cartridge sells for $300+ on Ebay, was mentioned in a magazine once, and contains a lot of insight into the development of the game. Did IGN cover it? No. Neither did any other journals, professional websites, or press. So I cited a fan site. And if you follow the link, you will see graphically exactly what is described in the article. Perhaps I flouted the rules, but doing so enhanced the article's comprehensiveness and informed the reader more than if I would have just left off the information. Few Wikipedians are authoritatively, usually "right" about issues. Editors only familiar with biographies or biology have sometimes picked apart video game articles in FAC without understanding certain convention (like the natural Gameplay > Plot > Reception flow, etc.). Do what accomplishes Wikipedia's goals. You have precedent and policy. ZeaLitY [ DREAM - REFLECT ] 05:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly the sort of process and insight I'm talking about though, that may be valuable as task force under the video games project. People with experience that other editors can turn to (i.e. ask for help or propose a task to) that are willing to do this kind of legwork looking for, evaluating, and providing references. The same sort of thing that's loosely done in individual articles or by specific request on this talk page right now. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 06:43, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you Zeality, with that in mind I'll proceed. Someoneanother 22:46, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
  • For the record I've been in contact with Big Splash, Stephen Lewis has confirmed that the interview with Tanya Short is A-OK. It's just as well, I was knackered without it. Someoneanother 13:24, 5 August 2008 (UTC)