Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle Ages/Archive 23

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Celtic Christianity listed at Requested moves

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What to do about OMACL links?

As some of the articles involved in this discussion (WP:VPIL#What to do about OMACL links?) involve the topic of this Wikiproject, I'd appreciate any help or input y'all might have. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 18:17, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Scandinavian Scotland listed at Requested moves

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Amali dynasty listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Amali dynasty to be moved to Amal dynasty. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 05:01, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

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Princesse lointaine article

Today I came across this article, Princesse lointaine. It has no sources and claims to represent a "stock character" of medieval romances. I wrote my PhD on medieval romance and study them for a living, and I have never once heard of this term. I've heard of "amour de loin" which is apparently connected. Google scholar searches show only results from around 1900, while a search a Regesta Imperii has one hit that is missing any page numbers. Most hits on google books refer to a play by that name.

Can anyone findout who actually coined the term? It does not strike me as notable, and I am inclined to nominate the article for deletion unless someone can show that there really are people using it.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:27, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

@Ermenrich: 1895, it seems; as much a stock character as Anne of Geierstein. A single character. Suggest, per WP:ATD, merging into the Chivalric romance article. ——SerialNumber54129 15:35, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Professor Google to the rescue! "The Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, originally published by Oxford University Press 2006. princesse lointaine an ideal but unattainable woman. The expression is French, literally ‘distant princess’, and comes from the title of a play by Edmond Rostand (1868–1918), based on a theme of the poetry of the 12th-century troubadour Jaufré Rudel." "princesse lointaine." The Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. . Encyclopedia.com. 8 Dec. 2018 <https://www.encyclopedia.com>.
It is certainly notable, but not well explained. Johnbod (talk) 15:36, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Does the Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable give any indication of who actually uses the term? It is certainly not used very widely by medievalists, not even, evidently, by those speaking French if we can trust the results at Regesta Imperii just from titles. I've certainly never heard of it before. The article needs a major overhaul to make it clear that it has nothing, directly, to do with "courtly love", I should say. Perhaps it would be worth starting an Amour de loin article, which is a term actually used by medievalists and also largely based around Jaufré Rudel, and redirecting "princesse lointaine"?--Ermenrich (talk) 15:43, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Yes; suggest immediate redirect to Amour de loin per WP:ATD. ——SerialNumber54129 15:53, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
No, it isn't a term that's really anything to do with medieval literature, except by indirect origin. I can't help what you do or don't know, but never having heard of something is a very dubious starting point for an AFD without the further research you obviously aren't prepared to do (or you wouldn't keep asking here). I've certainly come across the term plenty of times, in all different contexts, as a google books search (once clear of Rostand) indicates. No, an immediate redirect to Amour de loin would be a bad idea, even if that article existed. Johnbod (talk)
I find your response, if not necessarily uncivil, certainly unfriendly. How do you know what I'm prepared to do? I posted this here literally this morning, and I did do research based on the information in the article, which claimed it was a stock character of medieval romance. My (admittedly brief) searches indicated that this not how it's used, and showed very little use of the term at all except to refer to a play, with most use (understandably) coming around 1900. You've shown that it's mentioned in another encyclopedia, which shows that someone uses it, but the question is: who? I knew that Wikipedia didn't just invent it itself, as the article includes a long unattributed block quotation. I have not formally nominated the article for deletion, I have asked the members of Project:Middle Ages for their opinion on it. So far, I still have not seen any evidence that there is more information on this concept than a dictionary article, and as we all know, Wikipedia is not a dictionary. I therefore ask you, in the spirit of the collaborative encyclopedia we're building, to just interact with me without impuning my motives. Or don't-I'm not going to unilaterally delete the article-, but please don't insinuate I'm lazy. If you think it's notable beyond a dictionary article, why? It's an honest question. I can only speak from the perspective of a medievalist, where this turn-of-the-last-century term would be better handled either at Courtly love or at a new article on Amour de loin.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:07, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
As far as I can remember Runciman wrote that Melisende of Tripoli was mentioned as La Princesse Lointane by troubadours. Borsoka (talk) 17:25, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Borsoka! Do you remember where? I've found one other medievalist use (in French). 21st century searches on google books find perhaps 3-4 generalized uses not referring to Rostand's play in studies of Victorian lit.--Ermenrich (talk) 17:30, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
Yes, Runciman mentions her in the second volume of his A History of the Crusades ([1]). Borsoka (talk) 01:03, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

So we've established some usage of this term (I'd like to see the context for Runciman - I believe the person he describes as a "princesse lointaine" is the famous distant princess of Jaufré Rudel and thus an indirect reference to Rostand's play). The article as it stands remains terrible, and perhaps largely outside the purview of this wikiproject. Nevertheless, it's worth asking: 1) is the fact that this term exists enough to warrent an article here? 2) what would that article consist of? My own feeling to 1) is no, there isn't really anything to say about it besides a dictionary definition. As to 2, a bare definition would seem to me to be all that could be included in the article, should it be kept. There aren't reliable secondary that discuss it specifically, as far as I can tell. They just use it as a word and often mislable it as a "medieval stock character", just as the article originally did.

I'd think it could be redirected to Rostand, actually, or else courtly love. Those are just my thoughts on the matter, but I'd like to see what anyone else thinks.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:50, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

As I understand it, Melisende of Tripoli is certainly the PL figure in Rostand's play, with Rudel as the main protagonist, but really it was her mother Hodierna of Jerusalem in Rudel's work and life. As I keep telling you, the term as it is generally used has nothing to do with medieval romances, except as a conceptual frame of reference, and yes, it is "outside the purview of this wikiproject", so you should just stop worrying about it. Johnbod (talk) 15:24, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Norse colonization of North America listed at Requested moves

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RfC: Origin of the Romanians

There is currently a Request-for-Comment open about restructuring the Origin of the Romanians article. Any comments or suggestions for improving the article would be greatly appreciated. Borsoka (talk) 11:50, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Æthelred of Wessex listed at Requested moves

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Raška (region) listed at Requested moves

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Richard, 1st Earl of Cornwall listed at Requested moves

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Northumbrian dialect (Old English) listed at Requested moves

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Origin of the Albanians listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Origin of the Albanians to be moved to Proto-Albanians. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 20:15, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

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Pannonian Avars and Avar Khaganate

I've started a discussion over at Avar Khaganate about whether it shouldn't be merged to Pannonian Avars (much like Hunnic Empire was merged to Huns a few years ago). At the moment the Khaganate article handles the history of the Avars, whereas the Pannonian article seems to just discuss their origins. Anyone interested please join the discussion at Avar Khaganate.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:19, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

I have formally requested that these two articles be merged. Interested parties should vote/discuss here so that we can gain a consensus.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:17, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

She listed at Requested moves

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Royal and noble ranks listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Royal and noble ranks to be moved to Imperial, royal and noble ranks. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 20:30, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

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