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FYI created article + changes to template/main MS article

Just an FYI, that I created an article on RIS, and made subsequent changes to the template. I am not feeling bold enough to add RIS in Multiple Sclerosis but welcome those with more medical knowledge to do so. Happy for any suggestions or changes/comments etc. Thank you.Calaka (talk) 00:55, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

That looks like a great little beginning, Calaka. (I made the refs look a little fancier just now.)
If you (or we) could make it about four times as long in the next few days, then you could send it to WP:DYK and get it on the Main Page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:55, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
That sounds like a great idea WhatamIdoing. I have access to the literature thanks to my university access. Any topics/headings you can suggest to add to the page?Calaka (talk) 03:00, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
Findings can be a tough case for article structure. In this case, maybe you would find some of these be appropriate:
  • Follow up (Explicitly specifying "nothing", if nothing is normally done, could actually be informative to readers)
  • Prognosis (e.g., likelihood of developing MS symptoms)
  • Epidemiology (e.g., gender predilection, typical age, prevalence if known?)
  • Research directions (Is anyone trying to figure this out?)
I'd add that if there's something that the reviews/textbooks/good sources talk about a lot, then this probably belongs in the article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:10, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you so much for the pointers. I will do some research tonight and add them in to the article. Maybe you can have a look once I finish and tidy it up to Wiki standards? :) Calaka (talk) 04:33, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
Hey @WhatamIdoing, I have tried expanding RIS and would love to see what you think. I am not a doctor (though I am studying MS) so apologies if I have mixed up the terminology in terms of prognosis, epidemiology etc. Also was wondering if there is an easier way to add the references from the link as I have found adding the names and details manually tedious. Getting an image on the article would be fantastic though I do not know of any sources where there are copyright free images of MRI scans showing RIS. Also happy for any other comments or suggestions you may have. Kind regards.Calaka (talk) 04:14, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
I'll take a look.
Refs are super easy since you're using the visual editor. Click the "Cite" button in the middle of the toolbar, paste in the URL from PubMed in the "automatic" tab, and let the citoid service figure it out for you. ;-) It won't do everything (it's hopeless with PDFs, in particular), but it's excellent with PubMed links and okay with most DOIs. Formatting all but one took me just 10 minutes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:37, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
I did some copyediting. I think you've done really well with expanding this. You cited a few reviews and a few primary sources – which is probably fine for such a rare (and newly described) condition, since you're either using them as footnotes on historical claims, or you've appropriately labeled them as being from single studies. Someday, we'll hopefully be able to replace them all with reviews and textbooks, but this looks like the best available sources at this point. I think you (or someone who knows more about nerves than I do) need to look at Radiologically isolated syndrome#Diagnosis to re-write it in your own words. Copying whole lists can be a copyright violation, and of course nobody wants that. But overall, I think you should be proud of what you've already accomplished here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:14, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for the kind words and the tip! It was right in front of me but I missed it. And yeah unfortunately I knew about needing to use secondary sources etc. but struggled to find much being said in reviews compared to the primary literature. Oh and yeah I tried to do my best to reword the list in my own words but perhaps it should be turned into a table like has been done for the McDonald_criteria#Diagnostic_Criteria, as it would be hard to change the wording so much that it is not a copyvio? Would you suggest I nominate the article to DYK? Calaka (talk) 06:20, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
Hey WhatamIdoing, I decided to be bold and make the nomination. Let me know if its all good. Kind regards.Calaka (talk) 10:51, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

WHO Cancer update

The WHO cancer fact sheet from 2009 has been updated to its newest, 2018 version. This will impact many articles. Best Regards, Barbara   11:55, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

it notes several refs including World Cancer Report 2014--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:20, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
I have updated the "Cancer" article referencing. Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:53, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Quality of Ketogenic diet

This doesn't belong here. Discuss article content at Talk:Ketogenic diet. Discuss allegations of user misbehavior at WP:ANI. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:28, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I stumbled upon Ketogenic diet this morning while trying to figure out what the term 'keto' meant, and I noticed that it's a featured article with what I perceive to be non-encyclopædic tone and content. Some sections are better than others, but overall the article feels promotional and how-to-ish. I lack both the time and the experience in editing medicine-related articles that I would need to improve the article directly or even to start a constructive talk-page discussion that would precede a FAR. Another editor recommended to me that raising the issue with an associated WikiProject would be a good way to get the issue in front of neutral editors who may be better equipped to make a good judgement about its featured status. I'd appreciate any extra eyes on this! —jameslucas ▄▄▄ ▄ ▄▄▄ ▄▄▄ ▄ 13:39, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

jameslucas, thanks for your comments. I think initially the best approach with article concerns is to raise issues on the article talk page. This is considered more polite that tagging the article (which I see you did), unless one's concerns are so serious and obvious that one needs to shout them to every reader (for example, copyright issues). I don't see how you need experience in editing medicine-related articles in order to discuss concerns on a talk page. The article authors are often in a best place to address those concerns, being familiar with the topic and source material. Sadly, the last time I checked, there were no epilepsy specialists at WP:MED, nor many writers capable of writing at Featured Article level. FAR really is reserved for articles where serious issues have been raised and they have not been resolved after a period of time. In terms of the tone and content, this is not significantly different to when it was awarded Featured Article, and the consensus of medical and experts in prose was that it was high quality. It has been reviewed by a world authority on the subject, and copyedited by one of our finest writers. As the main author of Ketogenic diet, I'm open to suggestions for improvement. -- Colin°Talk 14:03, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
I'll say this directly: I'm concerned that this is fringe medicine being promoted with a Wikipedia page and not an example of neutral encyclopædic content. Citations include Redox Biology, a medical journal which I'm not convinced would be accepted by mainstream practitioners, and the Epilepsy Foundation, whose Wikipedia page is mostly about its controversies. My kneejerk reaction is that a large amount of content on this page should rightfully be removed, but in the absence of careful review, I'm limiting my suggestion to the downgrade of this article's class, probably to B. I don't think it's overreaching to say that this is very far from feature-article worthy, and to your point that it's been largely unchanged since it was promoted in 2010, I say that that it should never have been made a feature article. —jameslucas ▄▄▄ ▄ ▄▄▄ ▄▄▄ ▄ 14:50, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Redox Biology is MEDLINE-indexed and the review article being cited is hardly even supporting a strange claim. However it is a concern that our article seems rather positive about this diet's usefulness in a way which seems a bit out-of-kilter in the light of recent secondary literature, which appears a bit more equivocal.[1] This is not, though, fringe science but well established as a mainstream seizure control treatment. Alexbrn (talk) 15:07, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Given all the ruckus above I am rather surprised to see a big picture of a branded MCT product (of which there are zillions of brands) in the article. actual image (and actual size) is here.
Medium-chain triglyceride (MCT) oil emulsion
Hard to reckon why we are featuring this product so prominently, and in an FA. Jytdog (talk) 15:16, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
@JamesLucas: the best place to discuss this is at Talk:Ketogenic diet. I'm going to ping Graham Beards because he spoke very highly of the article. SarahSV (talk) 15:27, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
We do have epilepsy experts collaborating with us. Happy to connect people to them if there is interest. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:31, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
This discussion should continue on the article's Talk Page, not here. Graham Beards (talk) 15:47, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Graham that the discussion should continue elsewhere. However I will answer the specific points raised here.

jameslucas, this isn't fringe medicine but an established treatment for refractory paediatric epilepsy and used by doctors from the finest children's hospitals in the world. I think it is funny that you wonder if the Epilepsy Foundation would accept it. Their Ketogenic Diet page and regular Keto-News page is written and edited by Dr. Eric Kossoff, Medical Director of the Johns Hopkins Hospital Ketogenic Diet Program, one of the world experts on dietary treatment for epilepsy. Have a guess which world expert I got to review the article prior to it receiving an FA. He went through it as thoroughly as if it were a review paper in a journal. I can find only one citation to Redox Biology and it is one of two sources for a very tame fact that "the ketogenic diet has also been suggested as a treatment for cancer". If there is consensus that this is a bad journal, I'm sure an alternative source can be found.

Jytdog, wrt the MCT oil. I took the photo and do not own a pharmacy or have access to the zillion's of brands you claim. At the time, MCT and coconut oil was not a fad, so was not available at the health store or supermarket. In the UK, MCT oil is prescribed for, among other things, "ketogenic diet in management of epilepsy". The only oil listed in the NICE BNF that is available to be prescribed by doctors for this purpose is made by Nutrica Ltd. You can find the product details here. Note it is the same bottle. It is also the only picture of any MCT oil we have on Commons.

Alexbrn, I have been highly critical of an earlier Cochrane review on the KD (you'll find a discussion in the talk page archive). I have only skimmed the update though I see two of the authors are the same and don't inspire me with their lack of qualifications. The fact that the newer version repeats the same nonsense about "Diets have been used in an attempt to control epileptic seizures throughout the centuries, indeed there is a biblical reference to prayer and fasting in epilepsy" demonstrates to me much you need to know about the care that went into this publication. A problem with Cochrane is that is designed round a very rigid protocol, language and the result is more "data" than directly clinically meaningful. It is very easy for those totally unfamiliar with the treatment of refractory childhood epilepsy to come to a wrong conclusion. However, they are not "equivocal". They clearly state that for the target group: children with refractory epilepsy who are not suitable for surgery, "a KD remains a valid option". This is borne out by recommendations/approvals by both UK's drug approval bodies (NICE and SIGN) and for insurance companies in the US. As I noted in my previous complaint, Neal et all 2008 remains the only RCT that directly looked at efficacy. The treatment group of 145 is small but proportional to the patient group: extremely ill children who have drug resistant epilepsy. This trial, published in Lancet Neurology, absolutely concludes "The results from this trial of the ketogenic diet support its use in children with treatment-intractable epilepsy."

I would be interested to know if there are any studies looking at anticonvulsant drugs where the manufacturer says "You know what, getting drug approval is too easy. I like a challenge, and the bean counters worrying about how much we've spent developing this drug can go take a hike. Let's restrict our clinical trial to the most extreme forms of epilepsy. Those are found in children who often don't survive to adulthood and may not all survive to the end of the trial period. Lets make sure they have tried an average of six previous drugs without success. Let's not include any who might be candidates for surgery. Ensure many of the children are so neurologically and behaviourally troubled that compliance issues arise regardless. However, just to be sure, make our pill unpleasant to swallow and give the patients a tummy upset initially..." Context. That's what is entirely missing from the Cochrane report. Fortunately those who write clinical guidelines that actually matter are able to see the bigger picture when making their recommendations. There is absolutely no doubt that if you have a child with epilepsy, who is refractory to several drugs, and who is not a candidate for surgery, that your epilepsy specialist would recommend trying the ketogenic diet. It is more likely to work than anything else.

If there are further questions about the diet or article, please write on the article talk page, and copy any of the above over if necessary. -- Colin°Talk 19:35, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Redox Biology looks like an acceptable journal. For those who believe in magic numbers, the five-year impact factor is about 6.9.[2] That's approximately double the average IF for general medicine and MCB journals – and it's a niche journal, so you'd normally expect the IF to be lower compared to a general journal, not higher. We normally don't worry too much about science journals that can boast an IF of one. I therefore think that we can stop worrying about this one.
Also, I've updated the dab page for "Keto", since most people searching for that term are going to be interested in the fad diet. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:24, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Your excusing your own promotion of a product even while going after Doc James with fiery pitchforks, with zero effort to understand anything or hear whatever reasoning might be there, is just hypocrisy. Whatever. Jytdog (talk) 19:53, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
I am struggling to find a single thing you have said to me that isn't an ad hominem attack. Did you read what I wrote above about the MCT. You don't come out looking good. Rather than "zillions" there is precisely one MCT oil product available in the UK licensed for the ketogenic diet. The one I took a photograph of. There's only one, Jytdog. One.
Would someone sensible at WP:MED please have a quiet word with Jytdog before he finds himself blocked for incivility. -- Colin°Talk 20:07, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
It is not surprising that you find your own editing completely reasonable. But it looks exactly like a paid editor's would - big photo prominently showing the brand name. That is how hypocrisy works - what you do is fine - somebody else's good faith work could not possibly be fine but is evil, misguided, unWikipedian, blah blah blah. Jytdog (talk) 20:18, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

How much longer is this behavior going to be tolerated by this project? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:05, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Mindfulness meditation

Over the past several years the bonanza in research into mindfulness meditation has been mirrored to give us a large amount of content here:

The content is popular: the main Mindfulness article currently averages over 2,300 hits/day. The content is also positive verging on brochure-esque and makes a number of therapeutic claims. In the main article Wikipedia states:

Clinical studies have documented both physical and mental health benefits of mindfulness in different patient categories as well as in healthy adults and children.[3][24][25] Programs based on Kabat-Zinn's and similar models have been widely adopted in schools, prisons, hospitals, veterans' centers, and other environments, and mindfulness programs have been applied for additional outcomes such as for healthy aging, weight management, athletic performance, for children with special needs, and as an intervention during the perinatal period."

Buried in the "Scientific research" there is the caveat that "overall methological quality of meditation research is poor and thus yields unreliable results", but that doesn't stop the claims rolling on including that mindfulness meditiation leads to "a reduced risk of inflammation-related diseases and favourable changes in biomarkers". This last claim is sourced to a Frontiers journal and an alt-med journal. I'm seeing quite a lot of dodgy sourcing.

A recent Systematic review and meta-analysis (PMID 29455695) found "For all psychiatric disorders it has been tested, MBIs were judged to have weak or no empirical support. The conclusion of the study is that the evidence-base for MBIs for CMDs in the acute phase is weak." (quoting the abstract - I can't get the full text). In general I think we have a bit of a walled garden and NPOV problem here.

Thoughts? Alexbrn (talk) 07:42, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

My first thought is that the claim that mindfulness programs "have been widely adopted" and that "programs have been applied" is not a therapeutic claim at all. "We managed to get schools to buy this" or "We convinced some dieters to try this" is sales information, not biomedical information. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:57, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
And that's why it belongs in a sales brochure, not an encyclopedia. --RexxS (talk) 17:33, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
Actually with great respect to editors here and who I generally agree with, and I do agree in part with the comments, I'd add: There's no problem with charting the trajectory of mindfulness into the schools, and as well all the information on mindfulness does not fall under MEDRS, but what I object to, and maybe that is what others meant, is the way in which the content has been added. It becomes advertising because of the subtle and maybe not so subtle promotional quality of the writing which comes out context as well as undue weight. I've seen neutral content that when placed with other perfectly neutral content becomes either pejorative or promotional because of placement. If it were me I'd clean up the article by adjusting weight and context. Since I have edited other articles on meditation techniques the kind of extensive editing I'm talking about might be seen as non- neutral so I'll leave that to someone else. I realize I'm probably being somewhat obscure in my references; I want to remain somewhat removed from this article.(Littleolive oil (talk) 18:13, 19 March 2018 (UTC))
Excellent points all around. I’m old enough to have seen many “”breakthough!” psych treatments come and go. A few have done the hard work and over time generated empirical support, e.g., CBT; exposure therapies; SSRI/SNRI rx (although oversold to some extent); & modern ECT for severe depression. Perhaps mindfulness therapies will get there too, but not at present.   - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) 23:41, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
I'd be happy with a re-write – I'm feeling grumpy, so I'd probably write that it "has been marketed to older people, dieters, athletes, teachers, and new mothers" rather than what's there at the moment – but I'd oppose anyone insisting upon "MEDRS sources" about marketing.
In the category of such sources, though, I remember reading that some sort of meditation/mindfulness kind of thing was done in prisons but found to be harmful (not just useless). So if I had an hour free, I'd probably look for contrarian sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:46, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
This article is specifically about mindfulness and Mindfulness meditation and whatever research has been done on this form of meditation so sources would have to be specific to mindfulness-to save you time. Sorry if I am stating the obvious. And to clarify, I am in no way saying mindfulness is not effective-I have no idea if it is or not- simply that the article must be crafted so that it does not appear to be promotional- not to be confused with positive-and that health related aspects of the article have MEDRS sources. In a quick look it looks as if mindfulness in prisons is useful but I didn't check the quality of the sources. Mindfulness mediation research may be pretty new so research may still be in infancy and all that means in terms of quality.(Littleolive oil (talk) 14:37, 20 March 2018 (UTC))
There is a meta-anlaysis on acceptance and commitment therapy ( that claims "Our findings indicate that ACT is more effective than treatment as usual or placebo and that ACT may be as effective in treating anxiety disorders, depression, addiction, and somatic health problems as established psychological interventions." At the moment there doesn't seem to be a widespread consensus on the efficacy of these more recent psychological treatments. Lucleon (talk) 11:21, 22 March 2018 (UTC)


Chromium passed GA on April 29, 2009. The lead used to say the element is an essential human micronutrient. I reworded this to past tense and added the citation from EFSA from September 18, 2014. Just adding a !vote that nutrition belongs in this WikiProject. I am only a student but Cr6+ is highly toxic. Can anyone here help me fix Mineral (nutrient)? -SusanLesch (talk) 18:58, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Just to make this more difficult, here are two sources from the U.S. who still think chromium is essential. US NAS (National Center for Biotechnology Information, U.S. National Library of Medicine) 2001 and US Office of Dietary Supplements March 2, 2018. The first from 2001 is our national reference. I expect but do not know that the second takes their cues from the first. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:55, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
Moved my comments over to Talk:Chromium#Not_essential. — soupvector (talk) 01:56, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for your help. It uncovered ESPEN, a MEDRS. I can post follow up to Talk:Mineral (nutrient). -SusanLesch (talk) 14:40, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
I commented there as well, but more eyes would be welcome. — soupvector (talk) 22:52, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

List of mystery diseases

List of mystery diseases – This article needs to be defined. The article says it is a list of "disease[s] for which the cause has not yet been identified". Is it a list of diseases that are a complete mystery, like "nodding disease" in the article, or should it include all diseases of undetermined cause, like chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, and even major depression? The article description makes me think it is the latter, but I don't know if there's any need for an article on that topic. Natureium (talk) 19:11, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Agree, and would add that using the term "disease" in the name of this particular article seems unfortunate. Many strive to use "syndrome" for unhealthy conditions that have unknown or multiple causes, and reserve "disease" for unhealthy conditions with a defined cause. While this distinction is very far from absolute, the term "disease" tilts toward "known cause". — soupvector (talk) 23:02, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
I think that's a conversation that will be most productively had on the article's talk page, i.e., where there will be a record for all future editors who are trying to figure that out. (Also, please document the result, whatever it is, in the article's lead, per standard WP:SALLEAD practice.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:08, 24 March 2018 (UTC)


User trying to use a self published book by Ann Hibner Koblitz as a source. They also wrote the article about her and her publishing company Kovalevskaia Fund. Peoples thoughts? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:40, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I think that the user probably saw Ann Hibner Koblitz and Kovalevskaia Fund to be red link and that's why they created their article. Looks like an enthusiast, but nothing really more than that. Raymond3023 (talk) 06:12, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
[3][4][5]agree w/ Doc James--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 09:22, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

The intersection of experimental, alternative, and cutting-edge cancer treatment

This news article:

Gellman, Lindsay (2018-03-22). "The Last Resort: Private clinics in Germany sell cancer patients hope — and mixed results — at exorbitant prices". Longreads. Retrieved 2018-03-24.

might be interesting to some editors here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:12, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Interesting. Especially the last 5 paragraphs. Raymond3023 (talk) 04:51, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
See also here. I wonder whether this clinic is notable enough for an article. Alexbrn (talk) 06:38, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
[6]probably is notable--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 09:25, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

What may also be notable is the phenomenon of private (oncology) clinics doing this — because the Hallwang clinic is far from the only. It also reminds me of a case where a woman had travelled to Germany for SLE treatment for a full bone-marrow transplant, an experimental and highly dangerous procedure. Fortunately for her it went well, but the marketing and atmosphere is remarkably similar to that in the article. I don't know where we could place such an article, but I think focusing too much on the single actor is only marginally useful.

In fact we have no article on Financial toxicity, which has been lifted to the forefront the past few years as a major negative effect of cancer treatment (then often focusing on the US). The current redirect is to Cancer#Economic_effect and only reads:

In 2007, the overall costs of cancer in the US—including treatment and indirect mortality expenses (such as lost productivity in the workplace)—was estimated to be $226.8 billion. In 2009, 32% of Hispanics and 10% of children 17 years old or younger lacked health insurance; "uninsured patients and those from ethnic minorities are substantially more likely to be diagnosed with cancer at a later stage, when treatment can be more extensive and more costly."[1]


  1. ^ "Cancer Facts and Figures 2012". Journalist's Archived from the original on 8 March 2012.

There is a whole lot more we could write about here. RationalWiki has an article on the Hallwang Clinic (which is CC-BY-SA, but does not adhere to our sourcing standards). Carl Fredrik talk 12:28, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

We have articles on the Oasis of Hope Hospital and (indirectly) the Burzynski clinic; it might be good to find a way to group all this stuff together rather than have one article per dodgy clinic - we could end up with quite a lot! Alexbrn (talk) 13:00, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
If for no other reason, writing ledes with "The xx clinic is a private oncology clinic alleged to engage in profiteering off terminal cancer patients, contributing greatly to financial toxicity of terminal cancer". That way we don't need to go into the details on each article, but can direct to a broader article. Carl Fredrik talk 13:20, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
I agree with Alex: I would rather not see articles on individual clinics.
In addition to the financial problem, we should probably expand our content on the "problem" of hope.[7] WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:29, 26 March 2018 (UTC)


I've tried to remove the primary clinical studies (and been reverted) - but more generally the entire article is heavily based based on primary sources. There appears to be a dearth of secondary literature discussing resolvins in a therapeutic context, but there is some discussing it pharmacologically e.g. PMID 29352860. Could use eyes. Alexbrn (talk) 17:03, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Have left some feedback for the user in question. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:31, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
What template is that you used? Alexbrn (talk) 18:46, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
{{Reliable sources please}} but I think handwritten messages are better for this job since they don't look thoughtless (the editor was welcomed to Wikipedia years ago). Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:40, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
  • god that is unreadable. somebody has mistaken WP for a journal or something. Jytdog (talk) 19:47, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
    • When I notice content like that I think it could be a copyvio. QuackGuru (talk) 21:23, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
    • Well, the editor who largely wrote it, Joflaher is active and appears to be creating quite a lot of article content which is similar in nature. Alexbrn (talk) 21:31, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
      • Well some of their contributions are a little overly complicated, a good faith editor. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:07, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
        • Yes, good faith I'm sure but the writing is way too technical. Alexbrn (talk) 16:55, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

My editing on Resolvin viewed it as a biochemistry article in WikiProject Chemicals category rather than a medical or clinical article. Many articles on other bioactive fatty acid metabolites (e.g. see LTB4) are classified as such and focus on the biochemistry, biology, and preclinical aspects of the metabolites. While the Resolvin article is actually classified in the WikiProject Molecular and Cell Biology category, it always focused on Resolvin biochemistry, biology, and pre-clinical studies that allow that Resolvins may someday become relevant to Medicine. Are you judging Resolvin from a overly medical viewpoint? Should the Resolvin article be re-categorized as WikiProject Chemicals? And, is there anything editorially that I can do to maintain Resolvin's biochemical, biological, and preclinical emphases? As always, I follow your judgements. joflaher talk(please sign your post..--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:03, 26 March 2018 (UTC))

Sucrose: a disaccharide of glucose (left) and fructose (right), important molecules in the body.

The Sugar article currently contains the statement "From systematic reviews published in 2016, there is no evidence that sugar intake at normal levels increases the risk of cardiovascular diseases.[1][2]". Both those refs are from a "supplement sponsored by Rippe Health". I'm not sure what that means. Is it a reliable medrs source, or a vanity publication?

Rippe Health is in turn sponsored by producers of sugary foods, among others, like the Corn Refiners Association (sic).[3] The lead author of the second paper is James M. Rippe, the founder and director of Rippe Health.[4][5] The other is written by John Sievenpiper [edit:name made into wikilink] and his postdoc. Dr. Sievenpiper has received media attention for the support he has received from the sugar industry.[6]

There is a better source. A Cochrane review found insufficient evidence to make any recommendations about low-glycemic index diets for cardiovascular health, because all the evidence was poor-quality.[7] But I'd like to know if the supplement should be used as a source at all, as it is also cited on sugar addiction (this paper[8]). The entire Rippe supplement seems to be open access, which is nice, but I can't see a copyleft.

Finally, should I take Ozzie10aaaa's advice and request a GA reassessment for the whole article? I don't think I can bring, or keep, the medical section up to standard by my own efforts.

HLHJ (talk) 18:01, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

The Khan and Sievenpiper source has a very clear and broad COI, but that doesn't disqualify it immidately. The presence of other sources, and the fact that the systematic reviews and meta-analyses are not plagued with COI is a good reason to avoid it. It also doesn't really support the above statement, saying:

In fact, the harmful effect of SSBs is likely driven by a collinearity with an unhealthy lifestyle as SSB drinkers consume more calories, exercise less, smoke more and have a poor dietary pattern.

So I'm not going to say it has to be purged, but it should be given less weight, and maybe one could push the unhealthy lifestyle connection more, with the caveat that this is speculation.
The Rippe and Angeloupoulos source falls below this level of evidence, and is pretty much a narrative review of RCTs, which when we have meta-analysis and systematic reviews of the same topic — should not be included. It mentions systemic reviews in its summary, but the focus is squarely on RCTs. There is quite significant COI here as well, which further weighs it down. It also cites a systemtic review, focusing on a point that is omitted from the sentence above:

his caused these investigators to conclude “the most obvious mechanism by which increased sugars might promote weight gain is by increasing energy consumption to an extent that exceeds energy output and restores energy balance… we observed that isoenergetic replacement of dietary sugars with other macronutrients resulted in no change in weight. This finding strongly suggested that energy balance is a major determinant of the potential for dietary sugars to influence measures of body fatness… the data suggests that the change in body fatness that occurs from modifying intake of sugars results from in alteration in energy balance rather than physiologic or metabolic consequence of monosaccharides or disaccharides.”

So what I can infer here is that they both hypothesize that sugar consumption leads to weight gain, because(?) it causes increased caloric intake. This confounder is side-stepped by the authors focusing on the one systematic review on restricted diets, rather than the "ad libitum" or "at will" diets of the two available systematic reviews.
Point being, I Support removing that sentence, because it is not reasonably supported by the sources. They miss too many points, and the major findings are ignored. They could be used to support other statements in the Sugar-article, but I'm pretty sure there are better sources, with less COI-issues to be found. Carl Fredrik talk 19:25, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Also why was this removed in April/May of 2017:

Studies in animals have suggested that chronic consumption of refined sugars can contribute to metabolic and cardiovascular dysfunction. Some experts have suggested that refined fructose is more damaging than refined glucose in terms of cardiovascular risk.[1] Cardiac performance has been shown to be impaired by switching from a carbohydrate diet including fiber to a high-carbohydrate diet.[2]

Switching from saturated fatty acids to carbohydrates with high glycemic index values shows a statistically-significant increase in the risk of myocardial infarction.[3] Other studies have shown that the risk of developing coronary heart disease is decreased by adopting a diet high in polyunsaturated fatty acids but low in sugar, whereas a low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet brings no reduction. This suggests that consuming a diet with a high glycemic load typical of the "junk food" diet is strongly associated with an increased risk of developing coronary heart disease.[4]

The consumption of added sugars has been positively associated with multiple measures known to increase cardiovascular disease risk amongst adolescents as well as adults.[5]

Studies are suggesting that the impact of refined carbohydrates or high glycemic load carbohydrates are more significant than the impact of saturated fatty acids on cardiovascular disease.[6][7]

A high dietary intake of sugar (in this case, sucrose or disaccharide) can substantially increase the risk of heart and vascular diseases. According to a Swedish study of 4301 people undertaken by Lund University and Malmö University College, sugar was associated with higher levels of bad blood lipids, causing a high level of small and medium low-density lipoprotein (LDL) and reduced high-density lipoprotein (HDL). In contrast, the amount of fat eaten did not affect the level of blood fats. Incidentally quantities of alcohol and protein were linked to an increase in the good HDL blood fat.[8]


  1. ^ Brown, Clive M.; Dulloo, Abdul G.; Montani, Jean-Pierre (2008). "Sugary drinks in the pathogenesis of obesity and cardiovascular diseases". International Journal of Obesity. 32: S28. doi:10.1038/ijo.2008.204. PMID 19079277.
  2. ^ Pôrto, Laura C. J.; Savergnini, Sílvia S. Q.; de Castro, Carlos H.; Mario, Erica G.; Ferreira, Adaliene V. M.; Santos, Sérgio H. S.; Andrade, Sílvia P.; Santos, Robson A. S.; de Almeida, Alvair P.; Botion, Leida M. "Carbohydrate-enriched diet impairs cardiac performance by decreasing the utilization of fatty acid and glucose". Therapeutic Advances in Cardiovascular Disease. 5 (1): 11–22. doi:10.1177/1753944710386282. ISSN 1753-9455. Retrieved 21 March 2018.
  3. ^ Jakobsen, Marianne U.; Claus Dethlefsen; Albert M. Joensen; Jakob Stegger; Anne Tjønneland; Erik B. Schmidt & Kim Overvad (2010). "Intake of carbohydrates compared with intake of saturated fatty acids and risk of myocardial infarction: importance of the glycemic index". American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 91 (6): 1764–8. doi:10.3945/ajcn.2009.29099. PMID 20375186.
  4. ^ Stanley, William C.; Keyur B. Shah & M. Faadiel Essop (2009). "Does Junk Food Lead to Heart Failure? Importance of Dietary Macronutrient Composition in Hypertension". Hypertension. 54 (6): 1209–10. doi:10.1161/HYPERTENSIONAHA.109.128660. PMC 2803034. PMID 19841293.
  5. ^ Welsh, Jean A.; Sharma, Andrea; Cunningham, Solveig A.; Vos, Miriam B. (2011). "Consumption of Added Sugars and Indicators of Cardiovascular Disease Risk Among US Adolescents". Circulation. 123 (3): 249–57. doi:10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.110.972166. PMID 21220734.
  6. ^ Siri-Tarino, Patty W.; Sun, Qi; Hu, Frank B.; Krauss, Ronald M. (2010). "Saturated fat, carbohydrate, and cardiovascular disease". American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 91 (3): 502–9. doi:10.3945/ajcn.2008.26285. PMC 2824150. PMID 20089734.
  7. ^ Hu, Frank B. (2010). "Are refined carbohydrates worse than saturated fat?". American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 91 (6): 1541–2. doi:10.3945/ajcn.2010.29622. PMC 2869506. PMID 20410095.
  8. ^ }} Sonestedt, Emily; Wirfält, Elisabet; Wallström, Peter; Gullberg, Bo; Drake, Isabel; Hlebowicz, Joanna; Nordin Fredrikson, Gunilla; Hedblad, Bo; Nilsson, Jan; Krauss, Ronald M.; Orho-Melander, Marju (2011). "High disaccharide intake associates with atherogenic lipoprotein profile". British Journal of Nutrition. 107: 1062–1069. doi:10.1017/S0007114511003783.
Carl Fredrik talk 19:35, 21 March 2018 (UTC) [edited by HLHJ to put the entire quote in quote format]
Some of the section you quote was removed by Jytdog on grounds, mostly, that the sources were terrible or primary (details in his edit summaries). The section as edited by Jytdog still contained the bit about animal studies, but the section was entirely replaced by Zefr just after Jytdog cleaned up the section. Zefr's version is still current and cites only the Rippe Supplement refs I am worried about (I've told Zefr I was worried and would look into them).
Does anyone know what the European Journal of Nutrition (not to be confused with the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, or other similarly-named journals) means when it describes a publication as being a sponsored supplement? HLHJ (talk) 22:44, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for bringing this. yes we should be careful with regard to James Rippe and his practice, Rippe Health. See this 2014 NYT piece and this WaPo piece from the same time. Jytdog (talk) 23:40, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
not good[8]--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 00:34, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for the references, Jytdog. I've added them to my increasingly lengthy history of notgoodness at User:HLHJ/sandbox/Sugar industry funding and health information. HLHJ (talk) 00:49, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
Is there any generally-recognized database of the conflicts of interests of journals? Not Beall's list of predatory publishers, but a list of journals' funding, grants, reprint orders, etc.? Whether they print paid supplements, and on what terms? Or even just more basic stuff? In this case, I can't find a way to be sure who had editorial control of a sponsored supplement.
More subtle versions of the shill publication Australasian Journal of Bone & Joint Medicine might declare their funding and cite one another like mad. Has anyone heard of other sponsored journal-like things, or how to spot them? HLHJ (talk) 02:58, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
Paging User:DGG... WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:05, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
Found it! Linked from the European Journal of Nutrition homepage (which I had looked for before, but absurdly, hadn't found). It turns out that the entire supplement was under the editorial control of James Rippe.
I am unconvinced that this form of publication funding serves the public good. Also, being the editor of a supplement containing a paper on which one is the lead author seems unusual.
I was curious to know who funded and edited the journal's other supplements; they publish a lot of them (23 of them, in fact, starting abruptly in 2002, after forty-odd years of the journal's existence). The resulting list was long, so I've posted it in my draftspace. In summary; I don't think I, personally, would cite anything from the European Journal of Nutrition. There are just too many conflicts of interest for my taste. I would heavily scrutinize any statement backed up by a paper they had published. They may well have published some respectable research; I didn't actually read the articles, although some of the stuff I skimmed I found worrying (the idea of supporting nutrition trends, for instance, and stuff that I would template as too advertising-like if I found it on Wikipedia).
Does anyone know anything about the history of this publication? It would be nice to be able to add something to the European Journal of Nutrition article. HLHJ (talk) 20:19, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
Eur J Nutrition was by no means the only publisher to issue such sponsored supplements. A number of otherwise very high quality journals did, and they represent a disgraceful cheapening of the medical literature. I do not consider any such publication to be truly peer-reviewed--it has the same status as any other conference papers in a commercially sponsored conference. In many cases these supplements were included only in the issues sent to individual subscribers, not to libraries. Essentially, they were advertisements.
I am amazed and horrified to learn that they are still being published. I do not know how fair it is to stigmatize this particular journal. I know where to ask, and I shall inquire further.
What I am fairly sure about, is that ewe cannot use the material as a RS even in our usual meaning of RS, and certainly not a MEDRS. DGG ( talk ) 03:48, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, DGG. There are "European+Journal+of+Nutrition"+&title=Special:Search&fulltext=1 39 other articles that mention the European Journal of Nutrition, and from a quick scan, some of them are from other sponsored supplements whose conflicts of interest I listed. Some references, like the one in the Vitamin A or Lactulose articles, are obvious because part of the citation mentions that they are from a supplement; you can see it from the search page. I'll replace them with {{citation needed}} and a suitable edit comment, unless there's a better route. But the formatting of the supplements was not very consistent, so if we are going to keep the non-paid-supplement articles from the European Journal of Nutrition, I'll go through and check them individually.
Should non-paid-supplement articles from the European Journal of Nutrition count as WP:RS or WP:MEDRS?
HLHJ (talk) 20:35, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
I needd to revise my comment: On my talk page, you pointed out" this supplement article, cited in Venous stasis, from 2012. It includes a very precise breakdown of what the supplement sponsor is not allowed to do. HLHJ (talk) 20:28, 25 March 2018 (UTC) "
and indeed, this may be a different type than the earlier pseuo-peer-revieweed articles I remember. I will need to check further, but my feeling is that we should not necessarily ban all such references, but they do need a comment. DGG ( talk ) 22:56, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[edit:indent by HLHJ]
Fair. I should say that some Eur. J. Nutr. articles, even at least one in the Rippe supplement, appear not to have major authorial COIs. If they aren't properly peer-reviewed, though, I don't think they should be cited for anything important. The attitude of the EJN editorial board to peer review is a concern to me, based on the limited information I have. The stated policy of the EJN on supplements is available from the EJN homepage as a pop-up from the sidebar link "Aims and Scope":

Supplements: Symposia or workshop articles may be published as supplements in the EJN and are funded by their sponsors at a special rate. The EJN welcomes queries about the publication of supplements.

I think auto-commenting on reference COIs is a good idea in principle, and I'd be very glad of DGG's comments on the suggestions for that below. HLHJ (talk) 19:05, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

General policy on paid supplements

So then I searched for "Suppl", the abbreviation used for supplements in some citations. 7,855 Wikipedia articles contain it. The first one, apart from redirects of abbreviations to articles on journals (e.g. "Atheroscler Suppl"->"Atherosclerosis (journal)"), was Prebiotic (nutrition). It cited a 2007 paper from a supplement called "Supplement: Effects of Probiotics and Prebiotics" in the The Journal of Nutrition, which is published by Oxford University Press. In only the PDF version of the article, there is a footnote:

Published as a supplement to The Journal of Nutrition. The articles included in this supplement are derived from presentations and discussions at the World Dairy Summit 2003 of the International Dairy Federation (IDF) in a joint IDF/FAO symposium entitled ‘‘Effects of Probiotics and Prebiotics on Health Maintenance—Critical Evaluation of the Evidence,’’ held in Bruges, Belgium. The articles in this publication were revised in April 2006 to include additional relevant and timely information, including citations to recent research on the topics discussed. The guest editors for the supplement publication are Michael de Vrese and J. Schrezenmeir.

Guest Editor disclosure: M. de Vrese and J. Schrezenmeir have no conflict of interest in terms of finances or current grants received from the IDF. J. Schrezenmeir is the IDF observer for Codex Alimentarius without financial interest. The editors have received grants or compensation for services, such as lectures, from the following companies that market pro- and prebiotics: Bauer, Danone, Danisco, Ch. Hansen, Merck, Mueller Milch, Morinaga, Nestec, Nutricia, Orafti, Valio, and Yakult.

The Internation Dairy Federation is an industry association. No full form of "FAO" is given; I don't know if they mean the Food and Agriculture Organization. I don't know who funded the supplement.
The Journal of Nutrition is in fact run by the American Society for Nutrition, whose Wikipedia article fails to mention their funding. Their website lists a some familiar large companies in the food industry, which list I have wikified at Talk:American Society for Nutrition#Funding. There is a general lack of Wikipedia content on the sponsorship of medical professional organizations.
This is one paper. I think I need some help. Should there be an edit filter that automatically warns any editor trying to add a supplement reference to check for supplement sponsorship? Or is this too broad? HLHJ (talk) 20:35, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
There should not be an edit filter (which are "expensive" in computer terms). There could, however, be a bot that leaves a friendly note on the article's talk page, so that any interested editor is aware of the question.
BTW, are you aware of the template {{Better source}}? It's very handy for situations in which, for whatever reason, you think that the current source should be replaced by something more solid. Tagging a ref for improvement is often more practical than blanking it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:22, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
I was aware of {{Better source}}, but hadn't thought of it in this context. Thank you, WhatamIdoing, it's a good idea.
That's a good reason for not using an edit filter. I think the basic problem here is that it can take time-consuming digging to uncover COIs. We need metadata that makes COIs jump out at the reader and the editor. I've started by posting to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Academic Journals/Writing guide#Journal conflicts of interest, with a suggestion that Wikipedia articles on journals routinely contain statements about the journal's funding and COIs. I've also posted to Wikidata:Wikidata talk:WikiProject Source MetaData#Conflict-of-interest metadata, asking if the metadata could help, say through parameters to make refs have a COI flag with a link to details. Opinions, wishlists? HLHJ (talk) 18:45, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Post-traumatic arthritis

NAC:Article accepted after edits. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:17, 29 March 2018 (UTC) A review will be appreciated. Should this draft be accepted into article space? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:58, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

  • This is a good topic for an article, but it needs more MEDRS sources and grammar editing. Natureium (talk) 18:21, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
agree(has only one good ref[9])..could also use a diagnosis section--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 18:24, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
I've copy-edited the draft for idiom – the drafter gives the impression that English is not their first language – and tidied up the refs as examples for them. But the sources are almost all dire. There seem to be a lot of good possible sources available, so do we have an expert here who can point GentianB to the best ones, please? Thank you for the point about diagnosis, Ozzie10aaaa, I've left a comment on the draft including that. --RexxS (talk) 22:36, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for your advises. Yes, English is obviously not my first language, so I am really sorry about the mistakes I made. If it is okay to you, I would redo the whole article the following days with the sources you gave me. Thanks for your patience. Since I'm new to Wikipedia, sometimes it is still confusing to me.--GentianB (talk) 23:40, 27 March 2018 (UTC)-
You're most welcome, GentianB. Please don't apologise: everybody makes mistakes and one of the advantages of working on a collaborative project like Wikipedia is that other editors can help and fix problems. Posting here will usually produce help with difficulties you encounter. Let us all know when your draft is ready and we can do another review for you. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 23:47, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
I have to thank you again. I hope to improve the draft and will let you know. Cheers. --GentianB (talk) 23:52, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
In general, if the directions for reviewing AFC submissions are being followed, then this should be accepted already. Yes, it could be improved. But it's in no danger of getting deleted, and therefore the AFC submission should have been accepted and the page moved to the mainspace. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:17, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Good point but I expect Robert was just checking to make sure the article doesn’t already exist under another name or significantly overlap with another article like Osteoarthritis (risk factors) for example.CV9933 (talk) 08:34, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
User:CV9933 - No. I wasn't just checking whether it already exists. I was asking whether the article was up to the standards of this project. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:27, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
@WhatamIdoing: On the other hand, there is little point in moving an article into mainspace when the drafter knows it requires a complete re-write to include good quality sources. Frankly, if the only sources available were the ones used in the article, it should be deleted because it would have no content supported by reliable secondary sources, which - as you know - is a prerequisite for a Wikipedia article. No, it's far better to give drafters the encouragement to find the good sources and use them at this early stage (the draft is only a day old!). Nobody is more critical than I am of overly strict AfC reviewers who decline perfectly notable topics for spurious reasons, but this draft has not been declined, and I believe it would benefit both the drafter and the encyclopedia to give them the chance to do more research on the topic. Others can add to it later once it's been published, but there's value in spending a little more time now in learning how to use MEDRS. --RexxS (talk) 13:27, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
RexxS, I'd say that the main point in moving the article to mainspace is that the research shows that articles get improved faster there. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:41, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
User:WhatamIdoing, User:RexxS - I am aware that this project has higher standards than most of the rest of the English Wikipedia. I would have accepted an article of this quality on a nineteenth-century person. I routinely accept articles on nineteenth-century people. To get to an area a little closer to medicine but not medicine, I routinely accept stubs on animal and plant species. I neither accepted nor declined this article because I know that this project has (and should have) high standards. Thank you for commenting. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:27, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
Robert, WPMED doesn't "own" any articles. We don't get to say whether an article is "good enough" to be in the mainspace. We don't have "higher standards" for anything that relates to AFC. The AFC reviewer rules are that all articles that are unlikely to get deleted should be accepted and moved to the mainspace. You just need to follow those rules, even on medicine-related articles. If you're genuinely unsure whether a subject is notable, then please do come ask. We're pretty good about answering those questions. But otherwise, if you think that the article is likely to survive AFD, you should treat it like any other subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:47, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
Hello. Even if it is definetly not finished, I have done some rework of the draft and I would be pleased if an experienced user could give me some feedback and improvements. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GentianB (talkcontribs) 17:36, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
I think in it's current state it is ready to be published. There are improvements needed, but ongoing work can be done in main space. Natureium (talk) 19:25, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
moved[10]--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:31, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

National Network of Libraries of Medicine

I am giving a talk to a bunch of librarians from the National Network of Libraries of Medicine tomorrow about editing Wikipedia per here.

If you see new editors working on rare diseases and using sources like this Please welcome them. Best Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:27, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

a very good effort--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:17, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
I use the NIH resources in the article on Kallmann syndrome, they are of high quality and very helpful. I try to keep the Wikipedia article as updated as possible but hopefully still accessible to patients. Wikipedia articles can be very helpful to patients and families with rare conditions where there might a lack of good quality information on the internet. A very worthwhile project I think.

Neilsmith38 (talk) 20:31, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

RfC: Should Wikipedia contain video summaries of diseases? And how should they be presented?

The following RfC was moved, Please do not comment here:
Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Osmosis RfC
This was moved out after this page swelled to over 400,000 characters, causing loading issues and blocking discussion about other topics. Carl Fredrik talk 14:13, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should Wikipedia contain video summaries of diseases? And how should they be presented? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:33, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@CFCF:, thanks for the move. But should you have put that at Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Osmosis RfC instead of at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine/Osmosis RfC? Because you put it at the talk page, I cannot ask this question ... on the talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:19, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Feel free to move it again, the links should still work. Carl Fredrik talk 14:20, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Not for me to do. The links at CENT will need to be fixed, so this should get sorted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:21, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, Carl, for moving that to a dedicated sub-page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:02, 30 March 2018 (UTC)


Based on the feedback here and elsewhere:

  • I have informed Osmosis that we are ending this collaboration. As such I imagine they will no longer be uploading these videos to Commons or uploading updates to current videos. We are of course free to remove the front and back bumpers or alter their videos that currently exist as we would any other CC BY SA content. We did not discussion whether or not they would continue to release future videos under an open license.
  • I have removed all their videos from Wikipedia which you can see in my edit history over the last day or two. If I missed one or two others are more than welcome to remove them.
  • They will be removing any mention of collaborating with Wikipedia or Wiki Project Med Foundation from current documents as they are able and will not mention an ongoing collaboration going forwards.
  • They have withdrawn the application for funding from the WMF to support the elective at UCSF and with medical students generally (which also involve support for creating these videos).

Feel free to share this update were you see fit. Best Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:41, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

@Doc James: It is...problematic...that Doc James remains the current sole point of contact with Osmosis, and has taken upon himself the decision to terminate the collaboration with them. Bluntly, I have to ask—how did he assume the authority to estabish and terminate such relationships in the first place? While it is obvious from the ongoing RfC that the community objects strongly to the way that Wikipedia has been used as a marketing medium to build Osmosis' brand, and it is appropriate that we communicate that to Osmosis in no uncertain terms, it is also apparent that Doc James has not effectively assessed or understood the community's views over the last couple of years. Why is Doc James still holding himself out as Wikipedia's representative to Osmosis? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:19, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Who else do you suggest should do this? It is not unreasonable for Doc James to try to sort out this problem, as he knows who to contact. This is Wikipedia. There is nothing stopping anyone else who thinks they can do it better from having a go. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:18, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Folks at Osmosis have read this. If there is a group of people who want to join a teleconference with them to discuss things further I would imagine they would be willing.
They have responded here today. And had made a public statement prior here on 28 March 2018
No one from the Wikipedia side of things has reached out to them on their talk pages here User talk:OsmoseIt or here or via email it appears but me. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:53, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Similarly, I'm glad that Osmosis has withdrawn the request for $100,000 from the Wikimedia Foundation. But did that happen because James told them to, or because he told the WMF he wouldn't support the request, or something like that? If so, it's a concern if things depend on one person to this extent. SarahSV (talk) 20:25, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
I requested that they withdraw the proposal and they did. Our collaborations with the World Health Organization, International League Against Epilepsy, and UCSF mostly depends on one person aswell. All these collaborations would be happy to have more people join them. The collaboration with the National Institutes of Health, NIOSH, and the CDC are also based on a very small number of people. As are our collaborations with Internet-in-a-Box and Kiwix. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:56, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
While I would prefer not to discuss here, TenOfAllTrades — The reason Doc James is the sole point of contact is because he is the only one to have taken time to contact them. I've spoken to them, but have like many here been content to have James manage the discussions. James has consciously reached out to have more people involved multiple times. You're being very very dishonest to frame this as a problem. And to SlimVirgin, most grants depend on single people! Carl Fredrik talk 22:18, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
To accuse TenOfAllTrades of dishonesty in considering something a problem is ad hominem for no compelling reason. The available evidence suggests that "mistaken" or possibly "misguided" would be a more accurate description, if you really find it necessary to be judgmental about apparent intentions. Speak to the actions, and try not to guess the motivation, as it is easy to guess wrong. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:18, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I did so in response to what I felt were unfair and unfounded asperations. You're right that it was probably more a case of being mistaken, but with such an error taking such firm root — I was frustrated. I would like to apologize to TenOfAllTrades. Carl Fredrik talk 09:55, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I disagree with your assessment, CFCF, and I find your unfounded attack on my honesty regrettable. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:27, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
fwiw TenOfAllTrades I agree that we should have a more clear process for accepting and vetting "collaborators" and should probably make that a more formal designation with better controls on use of name etc. Jytdog (talk) 01:07, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm glad this is over. Seeing so many excellent Wikipedians at each others' throats has pained me. Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 04:01, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
This has been a fine example of how a dispute should not be handled (some contributors excapted). Everyone who has made ad hominem attacks should feel free to trout themselves thoroughly. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 06:18, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

The Signpost

The Signpost has now been published after a long delay. There are some articles in it that may be of interest to Wikiproject Medicine contributors. Don't hesitate to contribute to the comments sections. All Wikipedia editors are welcome to submit articles on any topic for consideration by the editorial board for the next issue.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:23, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

thanks for posting--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 00:04, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Chromosome number for Mouse genes are wrong



I have noted that practically every gene I look up on Wikipedia shows a human and mouse gene in the panel on the right. The chromosome number given for the mouse ortholog position is always incorrect. Instead of the correct chromosome location, it always gives the human chromosome location in the place of the mouse chromosome location. I cannot figure out how to change this and is likely in error in the lookup code that populates that chromosome field for the mice.

For an example, look at this gene and view the summary data panel on the right: CRHR1

Eakhiro (talk) 06:54, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Seems like a problem with Module:Infobox gene but I don't know how to fix that. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 08:35, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
From a quick look at the infobox of CRHR1 I can't tell which data item is supposed to be wrong. The CRHR1 gene is said to be on Chromosome 17 (human) and on Chromosome 11 of the mouse. These locations agree with the references. EdJohnston (talk) 16:47, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
Look further below, in the "summary data panel", there it says:
Location (UCSC) | Chr 17: 45.78 – 45.84 Mb | Chr 17: 104.13 – 104.18 Mb
I think this is what user:Eakhiro means; the right-most value is for mouse and says "Chr 17" incorrectly. --Treetear (talk) 20:41, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I am talking about the box on the right of the screen, where at the bottom it list the chromosomes for human and mouse orthologs. user:Treetear is exactly right. I noticed that the mouse gene summaries are now missing from the box. I assume this means that someone is trying to fix this.
Eakhiro (talk) 23:36, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
Hello Eakhiro. I fixed the error[11]. Now, mouse links work well.   Done --Was a bee (talk) 18:08, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, Was a bee! --Treetear (talk) 19:09, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Is Franklinization mainstream?

I am currently writing an article on the electric bath (Franklinization). I can't get a handle on whether or not modern use is considered fringe. I started off with the premise that this was an archaic technique no longer used. However Tribology and Biophysics of Artificial Joints gives a definition of it as if it is a thing. There is also "The Clinical Observation of the Acupuncture Supplemented by Franklinism Treating Insomnia" and some other papers. Can someone suggest how I should treat modern uses in the article? SpinningSpark 21:20, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

With the exception of the Chinese source you cite, every recent article that uses the term deals with it in a purely historical way. Looie496 (talk)
Still a bit unsure, but I've posted the article anyway at Electric bath (electrotherapy). If anyone has anything further to say, please post on the talk page there. SpinningSpark 15:20, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Merger proposal related to Lábrea fever and Hepatitis D

A discussion is taking place that may be of interest to some members of this project at Talk:Hepatitis_D#Merger_proposal. — soupvector (talk) 13:45, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Filipino vaccine investigation

I'm keen to get opinions from contributors to this group about the controversy described by the article 2017–18 Philippine dengue vaccination controversy and the one-line mention it receives in the article section Sanofi Pasteur#Philippine Dengue Vaccination Controversy. I am no a medical expert, but I have been asked by Sanofi Pasteur (on a paid basis via their PR firm, Purple Strategies, so I am mindful of my COI) to look into what should happen here. Naturally, I figured WP:MED should be my first stop.

The full article is not a bad summary of the situation as I've come to understand it: the Philippine government suspended a dengue vaccination program after Sanofi Pasteur said their vaccine poses higher risks for those who have not previously had the virus, and could worsen the disease in some cases; an investigation is pending. It also contains some potential WP:NOTNEWS reports of politicians weighing in; I wonder if others find this tick-tock excessive, or appropriate in the circumstances. It's complicated by the fact the principal writer (here pinged, in case they choose to weigh in) has a less-than-professional command of English.

Also, both articles contain similarly-worded statements that strike me as prejudicial, and WP:SYNTHESIS: Since the announcement by Sanofi, at least 20 children were killed, allegedly after being received a vaccination. The victims' parents blamed the dengue vaccine for the deaths of their children. As the cited source indicates, it is true that a few parents have made the claim; as other sources indicate, no public official has said anything like it. My question, then: should this sentence be included as-is, stricken, or rewritten? I'm prepared to help with article cleanup in both cases, if it will be of help to volunteers—however, I won't directly edit these pages. Best, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 16:30, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

please indicate on article/talk how (w/ references) and what improvement you think the article might need, thank you--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 20:48, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
OK, thanks for the reply and suggestion. I'll do so tomorrow. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 00:57, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
thank you--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 02:22, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
A quick update for today, so Ozzie10aaaa doesn't think I've abandoned this: First, thank you, WhatamIdoing, for modifying the language in both articles—certainly better than before. As I'm researching the topic to come up with proposed edits, I'm finding a lot of confusing and seemingly contradictory media reports, so I'll need some additional time to make sure I have the full picture. More soon. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 21:09, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
I assume that the person who wrote "allegedly after being received a vaccination" is not a native English speaker. There was no need to keep the strange wording. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:33, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
After reading 2017–18 Philippine dengue vaccination controversy, which needs translating into idiomatic English, and reading the references that I could access, I've added a summary to Sanofi Pasteur #Philippine Dengue Vaccination Controversy. At least that section now has some context for the reader. I've done my best to summarise the two sources I chose as neutrally and concisely as I could, but no doubt it can be improved on. The talk pages of the articles are in need of some debate there.
[Update:] I've now tried to correct the unidiomatic English in the main article, as well as attempting to clarify the narrative. I think that WWB Too should take their remaining concerns to the article talk pages now. My advice is to concentrate on (1) suggesting missing sources; (2) criticising inappropriate sources (if any); (3) suggesting better wording if the current wording is an inaccurate or undue summary of sources. Beyond that, I doubt that there's anything more we can do. --RexxS (talk) 22:51, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

RfC notice

Not relevant to this WikiProject. Natureium (talk) 03:29, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[removed for the second time - not relevant to this project] --RexxS (talk) 01:33, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

I restored this notice because mass shootings and gun control policy are recognized public health issues. Geogene (talk) 20:13, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
But not recognised by this WikiProject as in scope. You ought to show the courtesy of letting the members of the project decide what their scope is for themselves, rather than arrogantly deciding on it for them. --RexxS (talk) 20:49, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
It's just a pointer to an RfC. It's not the end of the world if it's here when it shouldn't be or isn't when it should. A bit of assuming good faith would go down well now. Bondegezou (talk) 20:59, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
It was politely removed by a member of this WikiProject, and edit-warred back by the original poster, who hasn't any other contribution to WPMED in my recollection. When "please go away" doesn't work, you'll usually find that "fuck off" gets results. --RexxS (talk) 22:37, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
It's generally frowned upon to remove talk page posts without a compelling reason. @RexxS: should voluntarily strike their aggressive remarks, or there's going to need to be some dispute resolution on this. Geogene (talk) 22:58, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Rubbish. Editors are given huge leeway to manage their own talk pages as they see fit. The same applies to a WikiProject. Are you a member of WPMED? Didn't think so. Considering you've been around a while, you don't even have naïveté as as an excuse for your lack of clue about how talk pages work. At your current rate, your behaviour is indeed going to be under examination at DR. --RexxS (talk) 23:15, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
This is not "your own talk page". Do you not understand that? And as far as I know, you're not the Glorious Leader of Project Medicine, either. Obviously, something about gun policy (which relevant to public health) triggered you. That's nobody else's business, so keep your outbursts to yourself. Geogene (talk) 23:24, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Don't be a prat. This is WPMED's talk page. I've been a member of this WikiProject for over 8 years and you've no association with the project at all. As far as you know, I'm not the Glorious Leader of the NRA either, but you know nothing, do you? Don't try to second-guess my motives. As it happens, the thing that annoyed me was when you re-inserted your notice after another member had politely removed it, noting "wrong wikiproject. You just can't take no for an answer, can you? --RexxS (talk) 01:41, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
You can be a "member" of any Wikiproject you like by posting four tildes on the respective page. Now, if you want to explain your page ownership over at AE (because this falls under Arbitration Enforcement guidelines) AN/I, or wherever else you want, then go ahead. Nobody is making you participate in an RfC, and nobody is making you participate in this thread. Geogene (talk) 01:44, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
You're trying to shoehorn in an issue that has nothing to do with WP:MED. Natureium (talk) 00:23, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
I disagree. The guidelines on RfCs explicitly state they should publicized on relevant WikiProjects. And reliable sources explicitly state that gun control is a public health issue [12], [13], [14], [15], [16]. So I'm following accepted procedure to the letter, I don't see what the problem is, and I view this opposition as disruptive editing. Trying to hide this serves no purpose other than to hinder solving a relevant content dispute. Geogene (talk) 01:26, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Well feel free to disagree somewhere else. The purpose of this talk page is discuss improvements to WP:WikiProject Medicine. The question of "whether Colt AR-15 should mention the Port Arthur massacre" is so far removed from that purpose that your persistence in trying to force your unwelcome notice down the members' throats is very clearly tendentious editing. You will answer for that at ANI if you continue in this vein. --RexxS (talk) 01:33, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
This is not a private club, and it's not your private club. I'm fine with AN/I (or AE), but you don't have to participate if you don't want. And you can stop replying whenever you want. But, again, you don't own this page, and I'm going to post whatever is on topic for it. Geogene (talk) 01:41, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Feel free to post on any subject that is on topic here - there are some clues in the edit notice. All you need to do is realise that "whether Colt AR-15 should mention the Port Arthur massacre" just isn't one of those subjects. --RexxS (talk) 01:45, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Sure. And this is on topic. Weird that you're still arguing this. Go file at AN/I, or go home. Geogene (talk) 01:49, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • I think an RFC notice would be less disruptive than this kerfuffle. No editor WP:OWNs this talk page. — soupvector (talk) 01:51, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Choosing reliable source

Hi all,

The last sentence in the lead section for Mini-Mental State Examination mentions examples of other tools used for evaluating mental status in geriatric patients. One is the Geriatric Mental State Examination (GMS). Several days ago I had cited a source for the GMS that I'm not sure is an acceptable source even after reading through WP:Medrs guidelines. I have an alternate source that I'm not sure is better. N. Jain (talk to me) 23:55, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

That's kind of on the old side. Have you considered a book such as"Geriatric Mental State Examination" (ISBN 9780191006753, page 62)? This mention of the test also compares it against another, which is useful if you want to write something more than a passing mention. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:46, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
I like the source you suggested WhatamIdoing. I agree, my sources were quite dated. I did not think of doing a book search. By "more than a passing mention" are you suggesting perhaps including a section on the GMS within the article on the MMSE, or starting a brand new article on the GMS? If you're suggesting the latter, I'm just not sure there is a sufficient body of information out there on this subject. Also most of the sources relate directly to Copeland et al in some way or another, and I'd like to see some other perspectives as well. I'm open to suggestions from others as well. N. Jain (talk to me) 23:40, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm a m:Mergist at heart, so I'd rather not create an article on GMS unless we had to. I think it's helpful to have a quick compare-and-contrast in articles like this: X is quicker than MMSE, Y is longer than both MMSE and Z but more sensitive; Z is better than X and Y for younger people (or whatever the real comparison is). That way, readers get more context instead of just the names of alternative tests. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:39, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Holiday month for the 3rd most popular medication

April is cannabis month where at WP:420 WikiProject Cannabis organizes a drive to develop Wikimedia content about cannabis.

So far as I understand the world's most popular medical treatments are, in order:

  1. Alcohol
  2. Tobacco
  3. Cannabis (13% of Americans over age 18,[1] true number includes non-reporting and under 18s)
  4. Aspirin (19% of Americans over age 18,[2] plus probably ~0% non-reporting and under 18s)

Of course the US is not representative but this is the data I have. It is less uncertain what all these things treat or how they work, but users report a perception of positive outcomes.

If anyone here has something to contribute to any article in Category:Medicinal use of cannabis then please feel free and report your contribution at the 420 project. These articles get a lot of traffic so anyone with anything to share can get their audience by participating. Blue Rasberry (talk) 23:41, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

I think dronabinol should be listed in this category. But maybe we can try to get some consensus before I or someone else decides to add that category to the article. N. Jain (talk to me) 00:01, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
What are the indications for tobacco use? I've heard of physicians prescribing the other items on your list, but not tobacco (i.e., as a current practice). WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:40, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
What are the indications for alcohol use? Avoiding DTs? Does that count? Natureium (talk) 14:30, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Primarily as a protective agent in methanol or ethylene glycol ingestion (to prevent conversion to toxic aldehyde, etc); historically, ethanol was also used as a tocolytic but that use has been debunked as ineffective. — soupvector (talk) 16:24, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
I remember learning about that, but as a thing of the past. Now we have fomepizole. Natureium (talk) 00:12, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Fomepizole is expensive and not always readily avaliable and therefore ethanol is still used sometimes. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, I checked if it's on our special list of high-cost medications. It's not, but I did learn that we currently have 113 drugs listed as shortage. Yikes. Natureium (talk) 02:40, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Do people drink antifreeze so often that alcohol has become the number one prescribed medical treatment? If not, I think it is rather misleading to give a list of the "world's most popular medical treatments" when they are not actually treating anything. Here in the UK, I would expect the "most popular medical treatments" right now to be: (1) cough medicine; (2) throat lozenges; (3) Beechams hot lemon; and (4) aspirin. But the weather has been lousy lately. --RexxS (talk) 16:54, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Your list also raises the question (perhaps definitively answered somewhere) about what defines a "medical treatment". I'd estimate that there's close to (not exactly) zero scientific evidence for the 4 things (especially the first 3) that you just listed having effectiveness greater than placebo for most indications for which they're used. Such lists are fraught, aren't they? — soupvector (talk) 21:37, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
I once chatted with a physician who told me that he'd prescribed whiskey sours as a muscle relaxant for a patient who refused to take pills, and it's probably more effective than nothing. I still wouldn't count a champagne toast as contributing towards alcohol's popularity as a "medical treatment", though. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:54, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Another use of ethanol is as a diagnosis and treatment for essential tremor. Ethanol can cause symptom resolution for affected patients, albeit episodically. However, as these things go, this is no longer a first-line treatment for ET. N. Jain (talk to me) 22:04, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
@Soupvector: Fraught indeed. But 'placebo' is a recognised treatment, and often surprisingly effective. Perhaps I should have put that at number one? --RexxS (talk) 16:36, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Turns out there's an Alcohol (medicine) page. Not very useful though. Natureium (talk) 00:13, 5 April 2018 (UTC)


Interesting piece here.[17] I'd love to see this extended to secondary articles. I wonder what proportion of material on Wikipedia is sourced to articles just based on a read of the abstract? Alexbrn (talk) 16:58, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

It's an interesting piece, but unfortunately its abstract is inconsistent with the full review  . Moreover, why do folks make up their own metrics and then use a sample size that's smaller than the number of contributors cited on the paper? (maybe they gave out one sample each to work on.) It's also worth noting that that they excluded any study where "no data were reported on inconsistency between abstracts and full reports" – so we have no idea how many studies had no inconsistency, just the figures for those that had. Oh well. --RexxS (talk) 17:58, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Like the rest of MEDRS, this is unnecessarily obstructionist. For example, I just violated this criterion in this edit, because all I needed to cite was a direct link between the "paper factor" being studied in the 1960s and the chemical formula for juvabione before it was given its own name. So I cited an old Science paper and no, I did not bother to read it. Wnt (talk) 12:14, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Apart from your first five words, I agree with you. However, it is a fallacious to argue that when one section among twenty is missing information, it follows that the entire guideline has the same problem. Your efforts would be better directed to proposing a change to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) #Don't just cite the abstract to exclude cases where the information supported is straightforward, like a name, a date, a formula, etc. --RexxS (talk) 16:31, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Like so many things on Wikipedia, and in life in general, most cases could be resolved by the application of a little thought and logic - what is sometimes referred to as common sense - but as we know it is not so common that one can rely on it. There is always a problem with people interpreting things to mean what they want them to mean, and since they know they are right, everyone else must be wrong. I agree with RexxS, but don't consider it an urgent matter. If someone references an abstract, it may be adequate for the purpose, but as it may sometimes not be good enough, how about putting (abstract) into the citation. That way those of us who only have access to the abstract can make use of it when it looks useful, and it serves as a notice to anyone who does have full access that it might be a good idea to check. If they do and it checks out good, then they can amend the citation by deleting (abstract). · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 18:43, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Other than for mundane information, I think citing an article while only having read its abstract is dishonest editing. Having some means of citing an abstract may be a solution, but are abstracts even reliable sources (other than for mundane information)? Alexbrn (talk) 19:51, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for bringing this, Alexbrn. I added this as a citation in MEDRS as all the more reason to not to be sloppy and just go by what the abstract says.Jytdog (talk) 21:13, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
I think it's more complicated than that. In the minority of articles whose abstract and paper disagree (in some material way, for the material you're actually supporting), if you don't "go by what the abstract says", then you will get people complaining that you've mis-interpreted the paper. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:05, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
I cannot believe you are arguing for editing based on the abstract, on the grounds that other people can be lazy and sloppy sometimes. Jytdog (talk) 02:21, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Why are people being characterised as "lazy and sloppy sometimes". Not everyone has access to a university library, and lots of people in good faith want to help wikipedia. We should help them do so honestly, rather than insult them. The title "Don't just cite the abstract" is wrong, in the absolute sense, and for non-controversial facts derived from the abstract, but the body text is right: "it is misleading to give a full citation for a source after reading only its abstract". Another thing I was taught, at uni, you should never do, is cite a paper based on reading the text in another paper that cites it. However, both might be permissible if done truthfully, if you word your citation correctly. You can say "(abstract only)" or "as cited by ...." in your own reference. It might be necessary in some articles if you wish to note a seminal paper, but since it is in Russian, and you can't read it, you cite it second hand. Those of you using templates may have more difficulty than those formatting by hand. Another example, might be if you want to say Dr XYZ published his paper on ABC in 1972, where the only evidence you need is that he did indeed publish the paper, and not even the abstract is necessary. It would be better to word MEDRS to encourage writers to make a truthful citation, and to encourage the reading of the full paper. -- Colin°Talk 07:46, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
I should add, that DGG, many moons ago, also pointed out that there can be differences between the draft at PubMed Central, and the final edited paper on the publisher's website. This may range from formatting differences to the correction of mistakes or misleading words. So how far do you want to go? It is also worth noting that many secondary source articles have abstracts that give very little away "Here we review the literature on ..." or "We perform a systematic review of ..." and there's little to draw from them. The above article was quite concerned about conference abstracts of research in progress or that had not yet been published. Those again aren't our main concern if we mainly want secondary sources. So I'd be more interested in an analysis comparing the abstracts of review papers with their body, but it seems very hard to put a numerical figure on any discrepancy found. Ultimately I'm far more interested in editors citing truthfully, and we should certainly discourage dishonest citation of full papers (or papers by proxy). Btw, Timeline of tuberous sclerosis has lots of "as cited in ...." references, and there's nothing wrong with that. -- Colin°Talk 08:34, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
First off, changes between an accepted manuscript and a final version are normally minor. When it comes to abstracts, the differences can be much more pronounced. Maybe you're right Colin that people aren't being lazy, but citing only the abstract is still bad practice and should be avoided. And at Wnt — I think it's a bad idea if you cited that statement only based on the abstract, but likely you came across the fact elsewhere, and then cited it to that article — so you're not really just citing the abstract, even if what you did isn't best practice.
We go as far as is possible, and helping those willing to engage to access papers is a large part of what this project does. I'd like for there to be more requests for sources on this website, but for some reason(?) those requests seem to have gone down lately. Another related bias is FUTON bias, and it is a major issue we should be trying to tackle, not resign to. Carl Fredrik talk 13:50, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Wrt to your second sentence, and for secondary source papers, you have zero evidence for that assertion. The issue is that if this project makes the guideline stricter than allowed by policy, or keeps avoiding common sense when using this guideline, then people will start to remove bits of it, or challenge its status. There will be things for which citing just an abstract is likely to be OK, and it is better that editors are truthful about that. A heading "Don't just cite the abstract" is likely to discourage them from making an honest citation. A better heading is "Cite what you read", which is a basic scholarly requirement, along with advise on how to cite just the abstract, or cite a paper by proxy. Remember that your experience on Wikipedia is not the same as someone else, who may be working in historical articles or biographical articles, where the medical journals are old and not online, or not in English. I know many WP:MED folk are in constant battle against alternative medicine, and fake claims, etc, but many many article are not a battle, and the facts are rather boring and uncontested. As for open journal bias, no, actually as a Free Content project, and as a project where everything we write should, as much as possible, be verifiable by our readers, then a bias towards freely available papers is totally in keeping with that. Being able to access paywalled journals is not a privilege extended to our readers. -- Colin°Talk 14:46, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Jyt, I'm not arguing for or against editing based on the abstract. Imagine a paper whose structured abstract says "Conclusion: We demonstrated that the sky is pink" and whose body contains the sentence, "The sky can be any number of colors depending upon the weather conditions, including pink, blue, and green" and contains a graph showing that blue is the most common color.
The anti-abstract position says that you should read the paper, cite the paper, and then accurately write that the sky is mostly blue. I'm saying that if you cite this source to support "The sky is usually blue, but can be other colors", then some good-faith, trying-to-be-helpful editor is going to come along, slap a {{failed verification}} tag on your source, and accuse you of violating WP:NOR. (And if it's a primary source, then you will have violated MEDRS's rules about only presenting the formally identified conclusions of the source, too.)
I also think there's too much either-or thinking about this. The best solution in such a situation is usually going to be looking for a different source. When the abstract and the body don't match in material ways, it's probably not a high-quality source.
I do agree with Colin about the misleading heading in MEDRS. We want you to cite (=put information between the ref tags) the abstract, if that's all you read. What we don't want you to do is to rely too much on the abstract. This is a "say where you got it" thing, not a "please cite the whole paper even if you only read the abstract" thing. The section heading is ambiguous. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:12, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
I understood you well the first time; the well-intentioned person who didn't check what the article actually says is being lazy and sloppy.
For biomedical information I don't use primary sources (if the "you" is referring to me).
We do not want people to edit content based on abstracts only, generally speaking. Yes there are obvious-in-the-paper things as others have noted, but those are not interesting nor what we are really talking about here. As the paper cited mentions, when the abstract is misleading it is generally spinning how solid the conclusion actually is. That is the kind of stuff Alexbrn and I and others that deal with from fringey POV pushers all the time.
This is really a basic scholarship thing. People should read multiple MEDRS refs carefully, and should generate content carefully summarizing them; you cannot do that looking at abstracts only.Jytdog (talk) 15:24, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Identifying a potential error in an article, based on the information and resources that you actually have, is not generally what I'd call "lazy and sloppy". WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:33, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Jytdog, there is absolutely no justification for throwing insults around about people's motivation. MEDRS is not a weapon and if you spend all your time fighting people you call "fringey POV pushers" then you're going to develop some pretty bad faith opinions when you actually meet editors who are simply trying to improve the project, and who aren't nearly as privileged as you, or are working in areas that are poorly covered by online material. The paper, on abstracts, that started this discussion is useless to us. And I question how you know your "fringey POV pushers" only read the abstract anyway, or if you can find an example of a secondary source someone cited where they were relying on incorrect/misleading information in the abstract that is clearly correct/not misleading in the full text. Otherwise, this just seems like a bunch of privileged editors making rules to help them win wars, not write articles. -- Colin°Talk 15:59, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
WAID, using the Template:Failed verification - which makes a definitive claim that the content fails verification -- if you haven't looked at the whole ref but the abstract only, is not good. (it also contradicts the instructions which say "use only have checked the source"). It is easily resolvable on the talk page, but everybody would have saved time if the person would have checked the whole source. A better thing to do -- and entirely reasonable -- if a person only has access to the abstract and it seems to not support the content, would be to open a discussion at Talk and say "hey, i don't have access to the whole paper but X is not supported by the abstract of ref ZZ - can anybody verify this and reply here?" But whatever. This is a theoretical discussion -- I have never seen this happen in actual editing. Jytdog (talk) 18:11, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
A weapon is anything used as a weapon, whether it was originally intended as a weapon or not, so WP:MEDRS is a weapon, because it is sometimes used that way. This is not a moral deficiency of WP:MEDRS any more than it is a moral deficiency of the candlestick in the library. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 19:32, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
I don't think you got the point. -- Colin°Talk 21:14, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
I think it is absurd to equate abstract-reading with "laziness". Because Wikipedia isn't some ascetic pursuit of scholarship, but a hobby of finding information backed up by reliable sources. If I manage to find a 360-page review volume about hormones in Virchow's Archive of Pesticides, and I find a line in a table that says that "paper factor" is juvabione, does that make me less lazy than if I find the same line in an abstract? Am I supposed to read the entire irrelevant article in order to be a "scholar"? Under WP:NOR, am I even allowed to use the preceding four figures and GC-MS results in order to decide whether I think the paper factor really is juvabione??? Then why the hell are you expecting or demanding that I read them! Wikipedia has insisted that we rely on other sources to digest facts into simple, citable assertions. Abstracts are where they do much, though not all, of that. And we should cite an abstract whenever we would cite any other page -- when we think the source is reliable and has made a clear statement. It is not even formally our job to evaluate whether we think the statement is true. Wnt (talk) 23:43, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Wnt as I noted above the issue is not about simple facts. I explicitly said that above. It is more about evaluative statements like evidence for whether X is effective to treat Y. I am done commenting here. Jytdog (talk) 23:51, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
I see no obvious boundary between "simple facts" and "evaluative statements". If an abstract says that drug X was no better than placebo, is that a fact or an evaluation? And if it's an evaluation, why would we ignore what the author says in the abstract and pull something rosier out of the conclusions section? And what other editor is going to stand for that? Wnt (talk) 00:21, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Dorsal tegmental nucleus

Looking for anatomy experts here. Does this exist in humans? Is there another name for it? Does it only exist in rats? Natureium (talk) 03:50, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

It would seem to be a bit more widespread. refers to presence in humans, and at least one ref in the article mentions rabbits. cheers · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:47, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
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