Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Cleanup

Request for Cleanup: Syrian Malabar Nasrani

When I found that the article: Syrian Malabar Nasrani is with a partisan view on the early socio-ethnic and cultural attributes of Syrian Christians in Kerala, I tried to introduce some space for neglected side. But the result is an edit-war. My view is that St.Thomas (or his disciple) could have probably evangelized both local people and Jewish people in the 1st century. I have introduced many reliable sources suggesting my view. Since it is not a scientific theory, the traditional beliefs of the concerned community could be given sufficient space until it is proved wrong. "All are Jews" view is nether acceptable nor proved. I request your good self to clean up the article. User:Ashleypt --10:43, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

It is User:Ashleypt who is introducing pov to the page Syrian Malabar Nasrani and started an edit war. Several editors have reverted his edits yet he insists on adding those pov. He does not sign his talk and edits pages without logging into his account. Robin klein (talk) 09:07, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

• The above contentions are not the matter of dispute. The content of the article is partisan and parochial in nature and theme. I made some edits and reversions while not logged-in, but due to ignorance of Wikipedia Policy. After getting proper guidance, I have corrected those flaws. User:Ashleypt --Ashleypt (talk) 10:43, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

POV edits by Ashleypt on the page Syrian Malabar Nasrani

I have to say that User:Ashleypt is not accurate when he says that there is only one editor with whom he is involved in a dispute. There are other users as well who have reverted his POV edits. Please see the history of the article [[1]] Other editors involved include User:SpacemanSpiff and a user without an account 117.201.250.33

Ashleypt has been deleting references and adding his own ideas and now incorrectly stating that there is only one editor with whom he is involved in a dispute. He has further stated there is no proof yet about Nasrani descent. However I should state that the latest in research concerning Kerala Malabar Nasrani heritage proves Jewish origin as long hypothesized. For latest research on Nasrani heritage and Jewish descent. Please refer to research by Dr Mini Kariappa, of Department of Anatomy, Jubilee Mission Medical College, Thrissur. Dr Mini Kariappa has done DNA analysis of syrian malabar nasranis and found evidence of Jewish descent amongst the Nasranis. She presented her reserach on september 5th 2011. There was a link of her interview in the malayalam language that was published in a malayalam language newspaper in Kerala. Here is the link http://www.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/MMOnline.dll/portal/ep/malayalamContentView.do?contentId=10033956&programId=1073753770&channelId=-1073751706&BV_ID=@@@&tabId=11

Ashleypt is trying to promote a casteist idea of nationalist supremacy that aspires to assume a 'supposed' superiority of the supposed elite 'Brahmin' hierarchical casteist society by trying to state that the Nasranis are brahmins. I should remind you that the Malabar Nasranis were persecuted in the Portuguese analogue of the Spanish inquisition known as the Portuguese Inquisition with the Portuguese burning hundreds of Syriac documents. Kindly see to it that Wikipedia does not become a platform where people propagate age old casteist ideas. Ashleypt does not give any support for stating the legends of brahmin descent saying that these are long held ideas. Denying and even brushing aside the latest DNA results. The latest DNA result shows the admixture of Jewish diaspora and local keralite society within the Malabar Nasranis. Which has always been stated in the article. In fact he distorts the admixture with local people as admixture with Brahmin, which is incorrect and at the root of the problem. Again to repeat. The article has always maintained that the Syrian Malabar Nasranis are an admixture of local South Indian Malabar people and the Jewish people just as latest DNA results support. However Ashleypt is in the attempt to remove the mention of local admixture and make it seem as brahmin. Ashleypt is not concerned or interested about the admixture of Jewish diaspora with the local keralite society within the Malabar Nasranis. Instead his real interest is the supposed 'Brahmin superiority'. Ashleypt is introducing pov to the page Syrian Malabar Nasrani and started an edit war. Several editors have reverted his edits yet he insists on adding those pov. He does not sign his talk and edits pages without logging into his account. thanks Robin klein (talk) 13:42, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

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• User:Robin klein's source - http://www.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/MMOnline.dll/portal/ep/malayalamContentView.do?contentId=10033956&programId=1073753770&channelId=-1073751706&BV_ID=@@@&tabId=11 - is not a reliable one as it's a thesis submitted by Dr.Mini who was not an expert in that field (Trained in Genetic Profiling just before this research). Also original research can't be considered as trusted source.
• I have never mentioned brahmin in my edits in the article Syrian Malabar Nasrani. Please verify the claims of User:Robin klein from article's log file.
• Other users: How I can mention an IP Address(Anonymous User)-(who could be User:Robin klein himself) - and invite him for discussion. From the history of page, I could see User:SpacemanSpiff hasn't edited/reverted the document yet. I still believe User:Robin klein is the only one in this dispute. If somebody comes in the future course, I would surely mention that time.

--Ashleypt (talk) 15:07, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

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Please, Mr Ashleypt the anonymous IP 117.201.250.33 is not mine. Besides that User:SpacemanSpiff indeed reverted POV edits by Ashleypt on 22nd September 2011. Please check the log of the article Syrian Malabar Nasrani timed 16:22 of 22nd September 2011. Also why would you say Dr. Mini Kariappa's research is not valid. She is a researcher at the Department of Anatomy, Jubilee Mission Medical College, Thrissur, Kerala, India and her research gives evidence of Jewish heritage among the Malabar Nasranis. All research is original by some scientist or the other. What makes them credible is the presentation and publication of the study of the research in a scientific conference and publication of the study in a peer reviewed research journal. Dr. Mini Kariappa has presented her work to the syrian malabar Nasrani community in the presence of clergy on the 5th of September 2011 as reported in the sunday issue (11th September 2011) of The Malayalam Manorama newspaper of kerala, India. She would soon be presenting and publishing the details of her works. Robin klein (talk) 15:47, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

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• Mr. Robin Klein stated "DNA result shows the admixture of Jewish diaspora and local keralite society within the Malabar Nasranis. Which has always been stated in the article."

Yes modified version of the article(or the official version of church) is the same as Mr.Robin klein correctly stated, but the previous version of the article did not mention this fact. It just stated "Syrian Christians are the descendants of Jewish diaspora in Kerala who were evangelized by St. Thomas in the Malabar Coast in the earliest days of Christianity." The statement could be true for Knanaya Christians, a sub set of the Syrian Christian community, but will be a misguiding statement for the bigger community. So I just modified it as : "The Syrian Malabar Nasranis are the descendants of the local people and Jewish diaspora in Kerala who were evangelized by St. Thomas in the Malabar Coast in the earliest days of Christianity." I think the change is complying with the above stated view of User:Robin klein also. (Some structural errors in the sentence have been corrected today.)

• Following is an online journal of Mr. Menancherry whose books are the major references of the earlier version of the article: [2]. So Mr. Menacherry's views are not supporting the previous version of article but the modified one.

• Following is a link to a brief version of the thesis submitted by Dr.Mini Kariappa on [3] In the introduction of the thesis itself Dr.Mini states "Both the Jewish and local converts were in the beginning known as ST.Thomas Christians or Nazarines." "They show high level of genetic admixture with local people and North-West Indian population" So the thesis of Dr.Mini further more confirms the traditional beliefs of St. Thomas Christians.

I humbly request Mr.Robin klein to convey what his exact ideological contention is, since the idea of admixture of Jewish and local genes is better explained in the modified version of the article. --Ashleypt (talk) 10:59, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

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• • Mr Ashleypt it was always mentioned in the article that syrian christians are descendants of local people and jewish diaspora. If you check the history log you would find the introductory passage "The Syrian Malabar Nasranis are the descendants of the natives and those of the Jewish diaspora in Kerala". It was removed in the endless pov edit wars. Please check the history log. It was mentioned in this manner for a long time up until early 2010. As I said it was removed in numerous edit wars. However there still is a passage well below in the text that survived numerous edit wars. "The present Christian community of Kerala consists of people from many ethnic groups including different trading diaspora of Jews and Christian settlers of successive centuries like Knanaya people". This passage is still there.

• • Besides, Dr. Mini Kariappa does not ever use the word 'Brahmin or 'Aryan' in her manuscript. Yet you do so in the text that you added to the wikipedia. The contention is not about local people. It is the interpretation of "local people" as necessarily 'brahmin' and 'Aryan' which is the problem.

• • Anyway I am happy that you now cite Dr. Mini Kariappa. It seems you have started to view her work as credible, which you were questioning only a few days ago. However, I should remind you that she never mentions the word 'Brahmin' or 'Aryan'. Would she still remain credible for you?? I hope she would. thanks Robin klein (talk) 11:06, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

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• So my major point of contention has been amicably resolved. Those who have removed the term "native" is the major culprit for all the mess-up.

• Dr. Mini Kariappa's detailed-report is still to be available for me. But from the reference in MalayalaManorama, it is clear that, she compared the Genetic Profile of Syrian Christians with that of many brahmin sects in India and found resemblance thereof.Kindly note a quote from Prof. George Menachery in nazrani.net ([4]) "When she shared her findings with me in 2005, I included a sentence about her finding that the Chitpavan Brahmins, the Tulu Brahmins, the Namboothiris and the Nazranies or Syrian Christians all have the same DNA factors i.e. those of the Jews". This underlines our traditional belief that brahmins were also there among the 1st generation Christians of Kerala. My point is "Proud in our tradition unless proved wrong". We are very well aware that the Old Testament is full of such traditions but historians consider many of it as valuable references even though it's veracity can't be proved above suspicion.

• Dr. Mini Kariappa is not an expert in genetic profiling. If you read 1st page of the report, you could clarify it yourself. Also the research failed to find any information on the timeline of admixture as stated in the report itself, which could have been of much more importance. But it's true that at 1st I did undervalue the research without giving proper heed, may be due to some confusing presentation in Malayala Manorama or "Enemy's Friend" mentality. I wish, if Syro-Malabar Church could sponsor the research or merge it with their project to ensure better coverage and participation.

• Please don't misunderstand my sentence. I'm quoting it here: "multilingual and multi-cultural society was existent in Musiris in which the elite Dravidians, clergy-class Aryan-Brahmins, Migrated/Converted Jains as well as some migrated Jews and Arabs lived a harmonious life under the rule of Cheran Kings". I haven't given any undue importance to Aryan-Brahmins, but just believe all the society including brahmins were blessed by the arrival of St. Thomas in Kerala. It had some social effects which we can't deny even in this age.

--Ashleypt (talk) 13:23, 26 September 2011 (UTC) --Ashleypt (talk) 13:09, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

• • Dear Mr Ashleypt there is a passage where you have mentioned ....."a multilingual and multi-cultural society was existent in Musiris in which the elite Dravidians, clergy-class Aryan-Brahmins......", so there is implication of "converted Brahmins". Besides what do you mean by elite Dravidians. Are you saying that non elite dravidians were not allowed to join amongst the midst of 'Aryan-Brahmin'??

• • You said it is traditional belief that brahmins were converted. You also state that Dr Mini's research confirms the belief. No it does not. The work of Dr. Mini Kariappa only states that the admixture of Jewish genetic heritage could be traced amongst several ethnic communities. It only implies the extent to which the Jewish diaspora had admixture with the local people. Anything more than that is indeed personal biased interpretation. You also said that it is traditional belief regarding brahmin conversion and so there is nothing wrong to mention it. No sir that is not so. Let me remind you. The traditional belief of the church was that the earth is the center of the solar system. They persecuted the great scientist Galileo for questioning that 'Traditional' belief. However even the church apologized for the persecution of the scientist and the erroneous assumption of the sun revolving around the earth. It is important to cite latest research and replace traditional beliefs. I am glad that is also what the church has done at least in the recent past. Going by the example of the church that you have been stating so often, It is time to discard the traditional belief of casteist superiority and Brahmin conversion.

• • What do you mean by ELITE Dravidian??

• • The definition of Mapilla given by Herman Gundert "a title used to denote Semitic immigrants from West Asia" is most widely accepted around the world. Please do not forget that Herman Gundert was a scholar of the Malayalam language and wrote the first Malayalam Dictionary. There are several other definitions proposed for the term Mapilla by innumerable writers but the are not linguists who painstakingly engaged in research to write a dictionary. Please do not undermine the works of Herman Gundert. thanks Robin klein (talk) 13:57, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

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• Meaning of "elite" in Cambridge Dictionary- "the richest, most powerful, best educated or best trained group in a society". In Sanga Age, it was Indus Valley people who dominated in Chera, Chola and Pandya Kingdoms. There is no question of non-elite dravidians as I have used that adjective for entire Indus Valley people who were kind enough to welcome all the later groups seeking greener pastures. I thing no more explanation is required for it.

• I'm again quoting Prof. Menacherry: ""When she shared her findings with me in 2005, I included a sentence about her finding that the Chitpavan Brahmins, the Tulu Brahmins, the Namboothiris and the Nazranies or Syrian Christians all have the same DNA factors i.e. those of the Jews"." Kindly visit the website which I have referred to. Prof. Menacherry was presiding the meeting and and he has put such a comment in the website supporting the traditional beliefs. So it's not my personal biased interpretation.

Till now, we believed photons the fastest in universe. It was proved by none else, but Einstein. Now CERN claims Neutrinos are faster than photons. In such conditions, how we could believe any research in the 1st shot? I admit there is some confusion over the genetic lineage of Syrian Christians, and needs more research. So is the case with the definition of term "Mappila". That's why I prefer the merging of different projects on this subject. Let the truth come out. Till then, it's quite genuine to believe that our ancestors didn't lie. Such issues are there with many other castes/races like Nair, Namboothiri or aryan, dravidian etc. But they all stick to their traditions and proud in it even though many of their beliefs are not supported by other people. History is always like that and will remain uncertain against Einstein's belief: "God will not play dice with universe"

Dear Robin Klein,

Please note the view of mediator in Dispute Resolution Board: "For there to be a true scientific consensus Dr. Kariappa's research would have to be verified by other research teams and published in a scientific review or in a respected textbook. Until then it is probably best to say something like 'a study by Dr. Mini Kariappa found evidence of Jewish descent amongst the Nasranis', and not make the claim any stronger than this, as it could yet be refuted by subsequent research."

--Ashleypt (talk) 13:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Aleister Crowley

Hi.Can you tell me that Aleister Crowley article why belong to the WikiProject Christianity? Aleister Crowley was the most considerable Satanist of the 20. century.Nmate (talk • contribs) —Preceding comment was added at 11:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The Listing of "Creation Myths"

Just a curiosity. Why are there so many "Creation Myths" attached to the "Christianity Project" wikipage? I could understand the "Literal" versus "Gap Therory" etc, but what do all the other Creation stories have to do with Christianity.

If one wants so demonstrate some universiality, as in the flood stories that move through cross culturally, then that might well be a sub-link on the Christian Creation page.

--Bibleguyjeff (talk) 23:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)Bibleguyjeff