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Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)

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Notification of Discussion - Canadian judgesEdit

All -- there is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Canadian Wikipedians' notice board about the application of Wikipedia:Notability (people) (specifically WP:JUDGE) and its possible application to trial judges in Canada. You are invited to participate. I am involved in the discussion.--Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 12:33, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

PriestsEdit

I have lately come across a lot of short articles on Anglican priests indicating that they were Dean of some diocese or other. Examples would be John Hay (priest), who was "Dean of Raphoe from 2003 to 2013", and Peter Wall (priest), who is Dean of Niagara, who I nominated for deletion. I am struggling to find a basis for notability for priests at the deanery level, and it seems like a lot of these are being made. bd2412 T 00:55, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

  • The guidance at Common Outcomes is at WP:CLERGY. The bishops of major denominations, including Catholic and Anglican Communion bishops, are typically found to be notable. Parish priests and local pastors need to show good third-party coverage. As for your examples, John Hay has one good reference, falling short of WP:BASIC. Peter Wall looks like a borderline CSD#A7 to me. • Gene93k (talk) 01:46, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I agree with your assessment, but note that a large number of articles of this sort are now being created, so something will need to be done at a higher level to address this problem. bd2412 T 02:19, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Proposal to make a slight change to WP:ARTISTEdit

  • WP:ARTIST says that an artist is notable if "The person's work (or works) has: (a) become a significant monument, (b) been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) won significant critical attention, or (d) been represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums."
I'd like to propose a slight clarification of this, to change "several notable galleries or museums" to "two or more notable galleries or museums". This is the way the word "several" has been interpreted at AfD, and is also better than the dictionary definition over at the OED:"More than two but not many." --- ThatMontrealIP (talk) 18:48, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Agree, makes it simpler and straightforward Atlantic306 (talk) 19:46, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
  • This seems reasonable. signed, Rosguill talk 23:46, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't necessarily think this is wrong but I would caution from the GNG that we have resisted the idea of quantifying how many sources are appropriate for the GNG, because that can be gamed. If this is added, I would add a footnote caveat that the number is meant as a guiding principle, and there are IAR-type exemptions to that depending the galleries/museum. EG an artist that gets their work into the Louvre may be notable from that alone. --Masem (t) 00:25, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
  • WP:ARTIST says that an artist is "likely to be notable" in such a case. As such, I would just ask: if someone has their work in two notable galleries (or museums) does that mean, in a large majority of cases, that they will have been the subject of in-depth coverage in reliable independent sources? If so, a change may make sense to specify. We shouldn't be keeping anything based just on that criterion, though, if it doesn't translate to coverage of the artist, of course, but I take that as presumed here. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 00:31, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
I'll try and stay out of this as much as possible, as I initiated the discussion, but I think the inclusion in museum collections, with or without SIGCOV, tends to reinforce point a) of WP:ARTIST: "The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors.", as the selection for permanent collections is considered to be very serious business within the art world. For one, you may have to take care of whatever you selected to add to the collection... for the next several centuries! SIGCOV does usually come with people on that level, but not always. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 00:41, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I share Masem's concern that too strict a quantification may be too easily gamed. Two museums at the level of the Smithsonian or MoMA would certainly be enough for me to argue for a keep. But there are a lot of lesser but notable museums that I would not find so convincing. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:08, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
  • "lesser but notable museums" How would you determine which museum was greater or lesser? Bus stop (talk) 03:24, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose I think it's a fine idea but I don't think it's clear enough on which museums qualify, book reviews are mush simpler because you can put them up on WP:GNG grounds. SportingFlyer T·C 04:15, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

WP:NMODELEdit

The criteria don't mention modeling work at all as contributing to notability. There's an AfD for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daniella van Graas where we're discussing whether seven fashion magazine covers and being for a period the 'face' of a major skincare brand raises a model to notability; it seems like it should at least be approaching notability. I'm wondering if we need to add something to the criteria here that specifically covers models? Pinging RebeccaGreenTrillfendiLubbad85 --valereee (talk) 15:34, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

@Valereee: The community just got rid of a Subject-specific Notability Guideline (SNG) for pornstars. I don't think it's feasible to create a presumption of notability for models. The community, generally, has turned against SNGs and support for such has been viewed as ILIKEIT. There's more traction in getting an active WikiProject to create an internal guideline (like WP:MILPEOPLE) and then bring it here. Chris Troutman (talk) 15:43, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

I think she is notable. We will need to work harder to find sources. I agree that modeling adds to her notability just as her covers, and movie work do. Lubbad85 () 17:19, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

  • The last thing we need is more SNGs judging importance as if importance has anything to do with notability. If the best available on this person is a link to the most passing of mentions in an unrelated news story, and two links to some website of dubious reliability, then there is nothing to write and article with, and it should be deleted. It doesn't matter if she walked on the moon, cured cancer, and killed Hitler. If you can't scrape together even a single decent source, then she ain't notable. GMGtalk 17:26, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

What it comes down to is appearance does not = notability. People don't seem to understand that. If I appeared as an extra in Iron Man 3, that doesn't make me notable. Notability comes from:

  1. "Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material.
  2. "Reliable" means that sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability

A model can walk in a Prada show, that doesn't make her notable just because Prada is a prestigious brand. If a fashion magazine or newspaper details that... then yes it becomes notable. This is an example. Because then they give more information about other work they did and their background. It's not just "model walked for Prada" and a picture of it. That's unacceptable. This is an encyclopedia. Trillfendi (talk) 18:22, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

GreenMeansGo the problem I'm having -- and maybe it's caused by the fact we do have SNG at WP:NMODEL, just not for models -- is that the guidelines say "1.Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions." Which seems to indicate that even if no one is talking about these roles, they're still enough. And the fact this set of guidelines specifically calls out models would mean that we'd interpret that guideline to mean (in the case of a model) 'important modeling assignments' which would seem to include things like fashion mag covers and being the face of major skincare brands. I do agree that importance is not notability; what I'm wondering is whether appearing on the cover of a magazine that is considered a reliable source is significant coverage equivalent to a long text-based profile inside. It's coverage in a reliable source. It's just not text. --valereee (talk) 18:53, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Let's say you have a model on a dozen different covers of big-name magazines. Even if that were to connote notability, with what material would we write the bio? The presumption of notability is not a politically-driven ILIKEIT campaign. The idea is that with particular accomplishments (like a Medal of Honor or Nobel Prize), there will be significant coverage about that person's life upon which we could write. Who, exactly, is writing about these models? The Daniella van Graas article relies heavily upon FashionModelDirectory.com which just establishes she exists and did covers. With no real coverage about her as a person, why would we write a bio about her? This is why there's no inherent notability in modeling. If Daniella were able to suit up for a game of Major League Baseball, there would be an industry of sports writers to give us source material. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:03, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Exactly what I’ve been saying for months on the AfD, but people want to break bad at me for pointing it out every time. This article is an abomination. This is exactly what we don’t need on this website. I wouldn’t care if she has a 90ft billboard in Times Square. Notability comes from what we can verify reliably. “Idolcelebs” is all people could come up with?! This is why I keep proposing deletion on articles almost daily! Appearing as one of Vincent Chase’s flings on Entourage is NOT enough for an article, people. Operative word is article, not blurb, not resume, and not trivia page. There is supposed to be a quality standard on this website but people want to continuously make exceptions for pretty women. It’s absolutely stupid. Trillfendi (talk) 15:23, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
*: (The only reason why I would make exceptions sometimes for things like the more popular circulations of a magazine such as Vogue (American, British, French, etc.) is that they write articles about the subjects (i.e. significant coverage) while others just put a random model on the cover and don’t even so much as put their name.) Trillfendi (talk) 15:23, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
They problem valereee is that these SNGs are only an approximation of whether a subject is likely to meet GNG. That's why everything is covered with WP:BASIC as an overarching caveat. If someone meets one of these criteria, or for that matter, if they meet every criteria, but they still fail GNG, then the criteria are wrong. GNG in turn is a measure of whether an article can be written. By this, I mean an actual article of the type that wouldn't stand out like a sore thumb in any traditional encyclopedia. (Note: That article doesn't have to be written, but it has to be capable of being written.)
It's important not to get so caught up in sets of special rules that we lose sight of the purpose of the rules. If you want to update the special rules, then you need to show that the criteria you're suggesting is likely to mean the subject meets GNG. Keeping in mind that notability is a measure or write-ability, and not of importance. The consequence of that is that we're inevitably going to have important people who are not notable, and notable people who are not important. GMGtalk 19:07, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
GreenMeansGo and Chris troutman, and I do agree with you both. I'm just...kind of feeling undecided here. I feel there's something in our approach that is missing something important in these cases, but I'm not figuring out what it is that's missing. To continue Chris' sports analogy, I almost feel like it might be like barely-notable sports figures: if they played 1 game at the professional level of sport X, they're notable, even if no one ever wrote anything about them of significance in a reliable source. --valereee (talk) 19:22, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Yes, NSPORTS is a mess. But just because people read NSPORTS and throw throw everything else out the window as they proceed to make 10,000 10-word perma-stubs, doesn't mean the answer is to lower everything else to the same standard of non-notability. GMGtalk 19:26, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
GreenMeansGo, lol, very true. --valereee (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
  • WP:ENT, WP:MODEL, WP:NACTOR? They're the same guideline! Doesn't anyone notice this?! I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! At least for models at AfD, a lot of uncertainty could be settled by coming to consensus on what counts as notable "other productions". No need to create a new SNG. Just an explanatory footnote would do. This might also help sort through model articles that rely on marginal "15 models you HAVE to see!" clickbait masquerading as significant coverage. Bakazaka (talk) 20:02, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
To chime in here, the Daniella van Graas is not "an abomination." The impending WP:Snowball keep will prove that claim wrong.
The question of sources and estimable work is a perennial problem. Apparently User:Trillfendi knows nothing about modeling. van Graas was a Ford model (a high levvel accolade), the Aveeno spokesmodel and face for years – replaced by Jennifer Aniston. She has a substantial work record in films and television and was for a shot time a parrt of the cast of the longest running ameican soap opera.
Finding multiple WP:RS was complicated by national boundaries and language barriers – had to find Dutch articles.
This is part of a larger campaign whereby Trillfendi is trying to forum shop.
In any event, readers use that information. WP:Not paper. 7&6=thirteen () 19:07, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
I didn’t even bring it here—valereee created this on April 26, and pinged me, Lubbad85, and Rebecca Green, for a broader topic of the model notability issue. So how am I “forum shopping” by responding to her request? Are you illiterate? Or just plain dumb? Trillfendi (talk) 19:38, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
And how do I “know nothing modeling” yet I’ve created well over 70 model articles. Manifestly I know more than you or anyone here about it. Being signed to Ford Models does not equal automatic notability. It’s idiotic. Do you want me to go to their board right now and list the hundred of un-notable models currently represented by them and who don’t have Wikipedia pages? BEING SIGNED TO A MODELING AGENCY DOESN’T CREATE NOTABILITY IF YOU HAVEN’T DONE NOTABLE WORK THAT CAN BE PROVEN WITHOUT SEARCHING THE DEEP WEB. You expect people to be impressed that she was the model of a drug store lotion brand. And when the astronomically more famous Jennifer Aniston takes her place she became a footnote? Raise your banal standards. Being on a soap opera that thousands of entry level actors go on isn’t special. Trillfendi (talk) 19:48, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Your inclusionism sounds similar to ILIKEIT. Realize that you would have to gain consensus for "accolades" the rest of us have never heard of and don't care about. Instead, provide sources to make a GNG case. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:11, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Nope. I disagree. Sometimes professional recognition is enough. What about professors? 7&6=thirteen () 19:14, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Struck the forum shopping remark. I was wrong. Although it is a fact you went here.
WP:Civil. Won't name call back. Apparently your judgment is consistently questionable in many ways? 7&6=thirteen () 19:44, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
Dramatic irony, really rich, coming from the one blatantly lying. Trillfendi (talk) 20:27, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Since you think having once had a comp card (if you even know what that is) from Ford Models is unmitigated notability just based on the Ford Models name: Abigail Olin, Adriana Cernanova, Allegra Doherty, Allie Redmond, Alyssa Arnesen, Amanda Batcher, Amanda Mondale, Amber Wignall, Anastacia Lupu, Anisa Dagher, Angelina Jesson, Anna Fischer, Anna Rachford, Arina Lush, Ashley Augenbergs, Aryn Terry Charlotte Rose, Chloe Kramer, Clair Wuestenberg, Dalia Savic, Dalila Babakhanova, Elise Agee, Elizabeth Sawatzky, Ella Rattigan, Gaby Diana, Grace Fly, Hannah Claverie, Hilal Ata, Hiltje de Kroon, Hope Fly, Jana Julius, Jeske van der Pal, Johanna Schapfeld, Julia Courtes, Juliana Schurig, Juliet Ingleby, Kate Li, Kiran Kandola, Laras Sekar, Lieke van Houten, Lila Cardona, Luiza Scandelari, Mia Gruenwald, Natalie Brown, Oliwia Lis, Pamela Ramos, Raquel Pascual Vila, Rebekka Eriksen, Rona Mahal, Rose Costa, Sara Soric, Selena de Carvalho, Selma Hadziosmanovic, Tanya Kizko, Thairine Garcia, Tsheca White, Vasilisa Pavlova, and Veridiana could use your "assistance" in article creation. And that’s barely scratching the surface of one board.... Good luck trying to make something out of a picture, blurb, gossip, people search website, one sentence, asinine forum or blog from a teenage girl’s room, or Instagram posts. Trillfendi (talk) 04:03, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

There unequivocally needs to be a fundamental change in what notability is considered for a model (no matter if it's a fashion model, model-turned-actress, glamour model, etc.) otherwise the same re-litigation is going to end up happening every 3 months. There are people who think alleged appearance equals notability (then anybody could say they walked for Dior and get an article. Which sadly seems to be the real issue in this category. Countless articles with 2 sources--models.com for the agency and FMD for wild, unverified statements.) and there are people who think a model's article should be more than a terribly sourced CV. And there's a third squadron of people who think nothing is enough to prove notability even if the preeminent Vogue says "this model is a top model" and does have actually notable appearances that get attention (Balmain, Alexander Wang, and Prada campaigns tend to do that). I created Keke Lindgard because she walked in the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show and that event gets a lot of press for months but at the bare minimum she had a regional source and a reputable fashion source that gave facts and didn't ask stupid, useless questions. The problem is every year there are dozens of "look who's walking in the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show!" and "is Jane Dane coming back this year?" articles from Vogue, Allure, Harper's Bazaar, InStyle, etc that rarely offer much substance. If someone proposed it for deletion I wouldn't budge but at least she has a career to stand on for refunding if that happened. Suelyn Medeiros, Esther Baxter, and Celine Farach incontestably need to be deleted. Like, today. "Sexy video model takes Instagram pictures"? "What's your favorite color?" Ludicrous. That is what is unacceptable. That's the stuff that needs to be eradicated on sight. Hilda Clark could definitely be redirected elsewhere. Trillfendi (talk) 17:01, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
There will always be editors who disagree, for good reasons and bad, and if those editors disappear, more will take their place. So in my opinion it's more useful to focus on the process and guidelines. What would you say to removing the "or other productions" from WP:ENT? That would, in theory, remove the argument that show X or Y or magazine cover Z is sufficient for notability. Bakazaka (talk) 19:16, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Addendum given the structure of the opening question in this discussion: A WP:ENT footnote clarifying that magazine covers are not "significant coverage" would close a potential loophole. Bakazaka (talk) 19:25, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
  • No need for SNG, but some milestones probably imply presumed notability. A model making more than 10 million dollars a year, a model who has had many covers on major publications, a model who has been in many campaigns.... All of these are strong indications that the subject probably has SIGCOV. However, given the rather copious (and frivolous) sourcing out there on models were really don't need a SNG with presumed notability. Find the sources - they shouldn't be hard to find (at least for models from the past two decades). Thresholds for model notability should be described in WikiProject space or an essay. If there is an issue with sourcing for historic models (e.g. from the early 90s back in time - where digital archive access is more spotty) - that probably merits more attention. Icewhiz (talk) 06:36, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Comment I agree with Icewhiz. Getting onto the roster of the Ford Agency as a regular is somewhat akin to being drafted, signed and playing regularly for the New York Yankees. It'a an elite and exclusive honor. but getting to gauge levels of success is still an issue, and numbers of contracts, covers, etc. are part; obviously WP:RS are too. 7&6=thirteen () 17:37, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Of the Top 50 models right now, half of them are signed to either DNA Models or The Society Management (Elite) with Next Management almost making a triumvirate of domination. Ford only has 4. That analogy is dated. Trillfendi (talk) 22:57, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Calibrating these rules of thumb takes effort - going over AfDs (of a large bunch of models). Collecting stats and BEFOREing sources for multiple articles. WP:SOLDIER and WP:AIRCRASH carry some (non-binding policy wise) weight at AfD since AfD participants think they are a fairly decent rule of thumb. I'd suggest that instead of discussing here - that people interested in modelling AfDs start doing the legwork. Shamlessly plugging this in here - User:Levivich/Footy AfDs - Levivich and myself are running a side project, trying to gauge NFOOTY's accuracy (which is a SNG coupled with the essay FPL) - this takes leg work. Icewhiz (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
Scroll up and you'll see another approach: discuss until a well-formed RfC question emerges, then use the RfC process. Bakazaka (talk) 19:16, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Just popping in to say it’s interesting how people "cared" about models’ notability for 2 weeks then went back to their neck of the woods. Countless articles still need to be created whether from scratch or those sitting in drafts. Fran Summers still doesn’t have an article for Christ’s sake. Now if you all claim to know modeling so well you’d know who she is and why she needs an article by now. But that means back to square 1. Those who know jack shit nothing about fashion shouldn’t even have an opinion in this space. If there continues to be the ignorant advocacy of models having articles based on existence of a picture, a name, and a sentence then there will never be aNY notability. We shouldn’t need to WP:BATHWATER this entire category. Nobody, nobody is entitled to an article by their job alone. Trillfendi (talk) 04:57, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Spending time writing thousands of words about old articles that don't matter might be less productive than spending time writing good new articles? Interesting. Bakazaka (talk) 08:09, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
Did I not say there are countless articles that need to be created? Trillfendi (talk) 15:30, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

While we’re on the subject (for the people who only paid attention model-related notability for the length of a We Bare Bears episode)—if Birgit Kos "doesn’t meet NMODEL" by benighted editors’ conveniently ever changing goal post definitions despite consummate, exemplary sources including but not limited to 3 different Vogues calling her a supermodel and many sources detailing her work excellently, then this whole category is indeed irremediable. No further comment. Trillfendi (talk) 04:27, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

RfC about independent sources for academic biographiesEdit

An RfC has been opened at Wikipedia talk:Notability (academics)#RfC about independent sources for academic notability to decide the following question:

Current wording: Academics/professors meeting any one of the following conditions, as substantiated through reliable sources, are notable.
Proposed wording: Academics/professors meeting one or more of the following conditions, as substantiated using multiple published, reliable, secondary sources which are independent of the subject and each other, are notable.

Shall the wording in the section Wikipedia:Notability (academics)#Criteria be changed to the proposed wording above?

Editors are welcome to join the discussion. -- Netoholic @ 20:15, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

  • This proposal has been roundly rejected by consensus. Xxanthippe (talk) 05:04, 16 May 2019 (UTC).

ANYBIO#1 - "significant award or honor"Edit

The WP:SOLDIER essay does set a bar for "significant award/honor", however do we have such a guideline or discussion in regards to civilian awards? At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zdzisław Zakrzewski, @Piotrus: is asserting that Order of Polonia Restituta (an award handed out 681,949 times between 1944 and 1992[1]) is sufficient for ANYBIO#1. I would suggest that whatever consensus we have for "significant" (or if we form such a consensus), it should be placed as a footnote here.Icewhiz (talk) 11:17, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for starting this discussion. I checked the archives for this page, but I couldn't find any significant discussion of what it means to have 'a significant award or honor' (except a consensus that university scholarships do not suffice). I don't see anything in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Common outcomes neither. It would be good to have some guidelines here. We can all agree that winning a Nobel or Oscar is sufficient (but of course such winners also pass on other counts). Where do we draw the line between notable and non-notable awards? I think we could create an essay/list, with "Best in the field" such as "best awards in Physics, Cinematography, Sociology" and "Best by country" such as "Top American/British/Russian" awards. On its talk we could discuss individual awards, and whether they suffice or not. On a related note, it would be good to consider how this measures up to inclusion criteria for the very inclusive criteria for sportspeople, as in - if we only include the top awards here (Nobel, or such, with few to dozen awardees each year, how does it measure to Wikipedia:Notability (sports) where people can be notable for not even winning but just 'playing'. hmmm?). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:00, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
I will note that MilHist did have a discussion for WP:SOLDIER(1) (defining " highest award for valour" + prior discussion limiting this to "highest" (or multiple 2nd highest)) - in Notability of recipients of decorations (2011) - which is nicely footnoted over there (SOLDIER, while an essay, is followed widely). Icewhiz (talk) 09:29, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
@Piotrus: in regards to NSPORTS, I cordially invite you to User:Levivich/Footy AfDs where we are critically examining NFOOTY's yardstick (this has already resulted in striking USL Second Division from WP:FPL - however we are trying to build an assessment of where the presume notability threshold should lie there). Icewhiz (talk) 09:32, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
Well, it's not exactly neutral or independent research as you have an agenda of removing leagues from the SNG and invite editors who share your views to assist you Atlantic306 (talk) 18:37, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
@Necrothesp: - in regards to your comments in diff - "Note that for the UK we consider the CBE or above to be high enough for automatic notability per ANYBIO. That's about 100 or so people every year who are considered notable enough due to their state honours" - is this codified anywhere or was discussed anywhere? I think it worthwhile footnoting here.Icewhiz (talk) 15:50, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
COMMENT: I would caution that while CBE may be the standard "in Britain" that really needs to be examined when being applied to other places, which were formerly part of "the realm" in the Global South, where receiving an OBE or even MBE is less common. SusunW (talk) 16:19, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware this hasn't been codified anywhere apart from in individual deletion discussions over the years, but my recollection is in agreement with Necrothesp's. The thing to look at in all cases where such multi-rank orders exist is not the order itself but the level of the honour that someone has received within the order. This certainly applies to those orders with which I am familiar, the Order of the British Empire, the Légion d'honneur and the Order Odrodzenia Polski. People get into the lower levels of these orders, such as the MBE (which my father was) or OBE, without being notable, but the higher levels are strong evidence of notability. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:30, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
That's exactly right. Of course not every member of the Order of Polonia Restituta is notable, but recipients of the higher grades are. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:13, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Re CBE - here's a bio that was recently kept due to having CBE award: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rami Ranger (3rd nomination). But we have to be careful generalizing by saying that an award that is given to few dozen people is sufficient. There are some very minor awards which are given to very few people too. We also have to consider who gives it out.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:35, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Piotrus - apropo our discussion elsewhere, note that Ranger donated over a million quid to the conservative party.... Just saying. I think he should've been kept (despite the atrocious state of the article) - however not due to the CBE - but since when I do a quick WP:BEFORE on him I do see hundreds of news items in the UK and India (seems he's a very major business figure [2] also somewhat involved in politics) - including full length parties on him. Icewhiz (talk) 09:42, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment: Based on prior AfD discussions in a range of topics, an award with 681,949 recipients would not be considered as meeting ANYBIO#1. Too indiscriminate to lead to presumed notability. In any case, ANYBIO is still subordinate to WP:BASIC, which requires significant secondary coverage of the subject, not just being in a listing of recipients. --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:43, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment we need more information than is presented in the article (and here) to make a determination, as it is highly likely that the higher orders of the award may well constitute a "significant award/honour" but the lower orders are unlikely to, in the same way as an MBE generally doesn't, but a CBE may, and a KBE will almost definitely. How many of each level have been awarded? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:25, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
    • An MBE or OBE generally doesn't, but a CBE or KBE (or CB, CMG, CVO, etc) almost certainly does. For a (I hope) fairly informed opinion on notability of honours in certain countries, I would point you to User:Necrothesp/Notability criteria for recipients of honours. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:38, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
      • I don't want to go off-topic here discussing British awards, I was just using them as an example of different levels of an order to show that "significance" kicks in as you approach the higher end of the scale. What I think we need is more information about how many have been awarded at the higher levels if we are to be able to come to a useful consensus on at what level the Order of Polonia Restituta is a significant award/honour. Rarity tends to ensure significant coverage. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:28, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
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