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Wikipedia talk:Notability (academics)

Miscellany for deletion This miscellaneous page was nominated for deletion on 7 February 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.
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This discussion was begun at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Nicholas J. Hopper, where the early history of the discussion can be found.


See Wikipedia:Notability (academics)/Precedents for a collection of related AfD debates and related information from the early and pre- history of this guideline (2005-2006) and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Academics_and_educators/archive, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting/Academics_and_educators/archive 2 for lists of all sorted deletions regarding academics since 2007.


Criteria #5Edit

Greetings. I've come across some confusion regarding this criteria in recent weeks, and it has to do with the part, "...an equivalent position in countries where named chairs are uncommon." I remember seeing in some AfD's (sorry can't think of an example right off the top of my head), the successful "keep" argument that in some countries simply being named a full professor satisfies that clause. I'm pretty sure the academic of those AfD's was from Great Britain. I think it would be quite useful if this criteria could either contain, or point to, a list of such countries. And while we're at it, the same might be done for Criteria #6, as there are countries where the vice-regent is considered the top academic post. Thanks. Onel5969 TT me 11:44, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

I am not aware of any case where just having a full professorship has been held to satisfy #5, not even Harvard. Xxanthippe (talk) 12:11, 17 August 2019 (UTC).
not even Harvard – Yale, eat your heart out. EEng 21:25, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
Typical Yale professors have actually done something that makes them notable, e.g. my advisor and friend for 30+ years, Michael J. Fischer. Jehochman Talk 23:21, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
Elis are so defensive! EEng 21:03, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
I have no horse in this race, but I kind of think Les Valiant has at least as good a record as Fischer. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:19, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
It is worth considering that 'professor' denotes different levels in different countries. Richard Nevell (talk) 12:20, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Xxanthippe - You're absolutely correct in the U.S., but as Richard Nevell, in other countries the standard is different. However, the article linked above doesn't seem to quite equate a British/European professorship with holding an endowed chair or "named professorship" in the U.S. Onel5969 TT me 16:01, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
I've certainly seen this argument made. I'm not sure how successful it has been. But if a British university specifically denotes a professorship as a "personal chair", I'd be comfortable equating it with a US-style endowed chair. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:29, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Lead copyeditsEdit

Hi all. I proposed some copyedits to the lead of this guideline with the hope of making it more clear and concise without changing the meaning. The hope was to trim the legalese (e.g. "in the sense of the above definition...", "for the purposes of this guideline...") and repetition (e.g. the fact that people could be considered notable by alternate SNGs was mentioned three times), as well as streamline awkward verb constructs and repetitive bits (e.g. "academics hold or have held..."). My edit is here resulting in this version (although for whatever reason the diff view shows up more clearly on Tryptofish's revert back to the original version). Tryptofish reverted with the concern that precise wording in this guideline has been contentious in the past, and should therefore be discussed. Does anyone have an issue with any of the edits made? I'm happy to discuss the rationale of particular changes. Thanks! Ajpolino (talk) 21:04, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for taking it to talk! For convenience, I'll show the two versions here, side-by-side:
Status quo

This guideline, sometimes referred to as the professor test, is meant to reflect consensus about the notability of academics as measured by their academic achievements.

For the purposes of this guideline, an academic is someone engaged in scholarly research or higher education, and academic notability refers to being known for such engagement.

  • Most academics are or have been faculty members (such as professors of various ranks) at colleges or universities. Also, many academics hold or have held academic or research positions in various academic research institutes (such as NIH, CNRS, etc.). However, academics, in the sense of the above definition, may also work outside academia (e.g., in industry, financial sector, government, as a clinical physician, as a practicing lawyer, etc.) and their primary job does not need to be academic in nature if they are known for their academic achievements. Conversely, if they are notable for their primary job, they do not need to be notable academics to warrant an article.

  • School teachers at the secondary education level, sometimes also called professors, are not presumed to be academics. They may only be considered academics for the purposes of this guideline if they are engaged in substantial scholarly research and are known for such research. If not, they are evaluated by the usual rules for notability in their profession.

  • See professor for more information about academic ranks and their meanings. Note that academic ranks are different in different countries.

This guideline is independent from the other subject-specific notability guidelines, such as WP:BIO, WP:MUSIC, WP:AUTH etc. and is explicitly listed as an alternative to the general notability guideline.[1] It is possible for an academic not to be notable under the provisions of this guideline but to be notable in some other way under one of the other subject-specific notability guidelines. Conversely, failure to meet either the general notability guideline or other subject-specific notability guidelines is irrelevant if an academic is notable under this guideline.
Ajpolino's revision

This guideline reflects consensus about the notability of academics as measured by their academic achievements. An academic is someone engaged in scholarly research or higher education; academic notability refers to being known for such engagement.

  • Most academics have been faculty members (such as professors) at colleges or universities. Also, many academics have held research positions at academic research institutes (such as NIH, CNRS, etc.). However, academics may also work outside academia and their primary job does not need to be academic if they are known for their academic achievements. Conversely, if they are notable for their primary job, they do not need to be notable academics to warrant an article.

  • School teachers at the secondary education level are not presumed to be academics unless they are known for engaging in substantial scholarly research. Otherwise, they are evaluated by Wikipedia:Notability (people).

  • See professor for more information about academic ranks and their meanings. Note that academic ranks are different in different countries.

This guideline is independent from the other subject-specific notability guidelines, such as WP:BIO, WP:MUSIC, WP:AUTH etc. and is explicitly listed as an alternative to the general notability guideline.[2]

Footnotes

References

  1. ^ From Wikipedia:Notability, emphasis added: "A topic is presumed to merit an article if (1) It meets either the general notability guideline below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right," which includes this document, "and (2) It is not excluded under the What Wikipedia is not policy."
  2. ^ From Wikipedia:Notability, emphasis added: "A topic is presumed to merit an article if (1) It meets either the general notability guideline below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right," which includes this document, "and (2) It is not excluded under the What Wikipedia is not policy."
I'll list here the things that should probably not be taken out:
  1. The additional part in the bullet point about school teachers, because it does provide further clarity.
  2. The stuff relative to GNG in the last paragraph, which is the language that was argued over and agreed upon in the past.
Maybe other editors will want to preserve more. Broadly speaking, I do like tightening up some of the language. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:40, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Thank you for laying it out side-by-side; that's immensely helpful. It's not clear to me what clarity is added by the secondary school teachers bit. Both versions seem to get across the idea "Secondary school teachers are not generally academics, unless they are. If they're not, see WP:NBIO." And I now see the concern with the last paragraph. I still think the first and last sentence convey the same information (i.e. meeting NPROF is sufficient to confer notability), but since misunderstanding of that at AfD is a constant struggle, I understand the desire for repetition. The middle sentence (an academic can be notable by another notability criterion) seems obvious and is already stated in the first bullet point. I don't see that as a point of contention at AfDs, and think the guideline is clearer without it. What if we replaced that paragraph with something like "Meeting this guideline is sufficient to establish notability, independent of the general notability guideline or other subject notability guidelines." I think(?) that's what we're trying to emphasize here. Ajpolino (talk) 22:07, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
I know it's not actually one of the proposed changes, but I'm a little uncomfortable with the restriction that secondary teachers can only be academically notable for research. There are two things wrong with that: (1) someone can be a secondary teacher at some point in their life and a professor at a different point; being a secondary teacher should not impinge on their notability as a professor, and (2) not all of our academic notability criteria touch on research, and I think we should allow school teachers to be considered for other criteria if they meet them. In particular, if a school teacher receives a major national or international-level award for their teaching accomplishments then I think they should be eligible for #C2 notability. On the other hand, I think we are in agreement that being principal of a secondary school does not pass #C6; such people can be notable, but not through this guideline. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:08, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
@David Eppstein: Good point. My understanding is all we want to say is that a secondary school cannot qualify as the "major insitution" for #C5 or #C6. Perhaps that would be best clarified in a note later in the guideline instead of in an even lengthier bullet in the lead. Ajpolino (talk) 02:42, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't think the parts about secondary school teachers preclude being notable for also having done work at the university level: if someone passes PROF on the basis of their university work, then their work at secondary schools does not undo that. As for them becoming notable for non-research achievements, I would think that would be adequately covered by GNG. I also think we need to be careful about not opening the door to "I wrote this article about my favorite high school teacher." --Tryptofish (talk) 19:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
I am worried about what seems to be an implicit assumption in some of the material above that WP:Prof is a alternative to WP:GNG. My view is that WP:Prof is a clarification of WP:GNG for the case of scholars and researchers. If a scholar has say, several thousand citations to their work reported in a citation database like Google scholar then there is a case for a pass of WP:GNG on the grounds that the scholar's work has been noted by a large number of independent reliable sources. It is the lack of account for this distinction that led to the scandal of the rejection of the draft Donna Strickland BLP. Xxanthippe (talk) 01:27, 30 August 2019 (UTC).
As far as I have understood it, it is a clear alternative to GNG to counterbalance the typical reliance on popculture reporting on the person with a focus on the inpact of the work of an individual which makes the person notable in a non wiki sense but we do not have enaugh sources about the person himself which would make the individual wiki-notable in a GNG sense. Agathoclea (talk) 15:13, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
There is not an "implicit assumption...that WP:Prof is a alternative to WP:GNG." That is made explicit in the lede of WP:N: "A topic is presumed to merit an article if...[i]t meets either the general notability guideline below, or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right." This is precisely why I wrote what I did above about this being a foolish idea - this should clarify our notability guideline, not expand or circumvent it. But if anyone wants to try to change WP:N then the discussion needs to occur on its Talk page. ElKevbo (talk) 15:21, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
I too think that this discussion is not the place to reexamine the relationship between GNG and SNGs. Also, how about getting back to the original topic of this discussion: whether or not to make the revisions that are shown above? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:15, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
I think the part at the end about "It is possible for an academic not to be notable under the provisions of this guideline but to be notable in some other way..." is important and should not be removed without significant additional discussion. The other simplifications, before this paragraph look like non-controversial tightening of wording to me and I have no objection to any of them. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:31, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Hmm, like I said my intention certainly wasn't to change the meaning, so I see how this was a problem. How would we feel about this for the last paragraph:

This guideline is independent from other subject-specific notability guidelines and is explicitly listed as an alternative to the general notability guideline. Failure to meet the general notability guideline or other subject-specific notability guidelines is irrelevant if an academic is notable under this guideline.

It's not the clearest wording ever, but it emphasizes the point that I think is most often misunderstood at AfDs (i.e. that meeting NPROF is sufficient). I think removing that middle sentence helps focus the reader on the actual important part. Thoughts? Ajpolino (talk) 20:44, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
But why do you want to omit the other point, that meeting NPROF is not necessary even for people whose notability is as academics but is in some other way than the ways listed here? Steven Salaita for instance, who does meet this guideline but who is more notable for the controversy over his unhiring? —David Eppstein (talk) 21:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
Two reasons: (1) It's already stated in the first bullet point as well as the footnote quoting WP:N in that paragraph, and (2) it seems like common sense? I know removing a sentence doesn't automatically add buckets of clarity to a paragraph, but in this case I think the extra words distract from the oft-missed point of that paragraph. Ajpolino (talk) 22:19, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Hi all, since it has been about a week and the conversation seems to have died out, I re-introduced only the uncontroversial changes. I've left the bullet point on secondary school teachers and the last paragraph untouched barring further discussion. Any thoughts on those remaining items would be appreciated, but if folks are tired of looking, I'll just leave them be. Thanks for your comments so far! Happy editing! Ajpolino (talk) 17:03, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:12, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Recent study: "Who Counts as a Notable Sociologist on Wikipedia?"Edit

  • Adams, Julia; Brückner, Hannah; Naslund, Cambria (January 2019). "Who Counts as a Notable Sociologist on Wikipedia? Gender, Race, and the 'Professor Test'". Socius: Sociological Research for a Dynamic World. 5: 1–14. doi:10.1177/2378023118823946. ISSN 2378-0231.

We show that the observed differences (in academic rank, length of career, and notability measured with both H-index and departmental reputation) between men and women sociologists and whites and nonwhites, respectively, explain only about half of the differences in the likelihood of being represented on Wikipedia.
— abstract

Recent study of potential interest to this group. Draft summary here. (not watching, please {{ping}} as needed) czar 10:15, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Very interesting! Thanks, Czar and Aaronshaw, for finding this, reviewing it, and bringing it to attention here. —David Eppstein (talk) 14:59, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
It's a nice piece of work. I like the "bottom-up" approach - basically simulating how much of the real population should be on WP if the stated rules were ideally applied. Taking an extra look into deletion discussions is also a good touch. I was little concerned with their assumption that citation index would make for a good comparison metric (after all, "half the deletion discussions mentioned the H-index, hence it's a good metric" could just as well be interpreted as "half the deletion discussions did not mention the H-index, hence it clearly lacks explanatory power"), but the odds ratios (Table R3) seem to bear that out. - "No original research" clearly not in favour with the authors, as per end of Discussion... --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 18:10, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
For the record, the above link was to the initial draft of the review - the final version is here, where we also quoted a part of the paper that specifically talks about this policy page. There has also been some discussion on the talk page there. Regards, HaeB (talk) 18:29, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Here's my take on this study: Take a look at Table 2. It gives us 363 white men with wiki-articles and 180 people of other demographics with wiki-articles. In all, 543 articles (67% white male). Now let's take a look at what proportion we would get if we wrote 543 articles based solely on who has the highest h-index. No demographic considerations - h-index only. That would give us the 233 white men and 70 others in decile 10. Then we'd have to add 240 people from decile 9, which is 61% white male, so we'd get 147 white men and 93 other people. Then we end up with 233 + 147 = 380 white men and 163 other people. So this new h-index only method would have given us 380 articles on white male sociologists out of 543 total articles on sociologists. So instead of the actual ratio of 67% white men, going totally fairly by h-index would have given us 70% articles on white male sociologists. (I would be grateful if anyone would check this math.)

I think this suggests no bias against female sociologists on the part of Wikipedia. But the numbers reflect a society where men are (especially historically) more likely to reach the most prominent positions – become "notable" in Wikipedia terminology. The h-index is only an imperfect proxy of this prominence so it wouldn't be surprising for white men to have some 'residual' prominence even after h-index has been controlled for. That still doesn't indicate bias on the part of Wikipedia. The gender ratio in Category:Roman Republican consuls is very unequal indeed but does not reflect gender bias on the part of Wikipedia. I'm not convinced the gender ratio in Category:American sociologists reflects bias on the part of Wikipedia either. The article does not persuasively show this. Haukur (talk) 20:38, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

I tend to agree. I got lost when the maths started up, but it seemed to me that, like many such studies, it was struggling to accomodate properly the changes over recent decades in the target population (which let's remember was OF COURSE only American sociologists, as the title didn't feel needed specifying). Johnbod (talk) 20:45, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Proposed edits to General Notes sectionEdit

Hi all. I'm proposing some edits to the General Notes section. The rationale:

  • The first bullet point currently covers two distinct ideas: (1) Claims must be backed up by reliable sources. (2) Non-independent sources can be used for uncontroversial details of the biography. I've split it into two bullets.
  • Copyediting for clarity (the plan was not to change the meaning of the text).

I don't understand the intended meaning of the last two sentences. I took a guess at one "sets the bar fairly low, which is intentional", but I don't understand what was intended by "Academics live in the public arena, trying to influence others with their ideas." Any thoughts or recollections from those who have been around longer than me? Proposed changes below (NOTE: One change was reverted per David Eppstein's comment below. See that thread for clarification):

Status quo

  • An article's assertion that the subject passes this guideline is not sufficient. Every topic on Wikipedia must have sources that comply with Wikipedia:Verifiability. For instance, major awards listed must be confirmed, claims of impact in the field need to be substantiated by independent statements, reviews, citation metrics, library holdings, etc. (see below for specific notes), and so on. However, once the facts establishing the passage of one or more of the notability criteria above have been verified through independent sources, or through the reliable sources listed explicitly for this purpose in the specific criteria notes, non-independent sources, such as official institutional and professional sources, are widely accepted as reliable sourcing for routine, uncontroversial details.

  • The criteria above are sometimes summed up in an "Average Professor Test": When judged against the average impact of a researcher in a given field, does this researcher stand out as clearly more notable or more accomplished than others in the field?

  • Note that as this is a guideline and not a rule, exceptions may well exist. Some academics may not meet any of these criteria, but may still be notable for their academic work. It is important to note that it is very difficult to make clear requirements in terms of numbers of publications or their quality: the criteria, in practice, vary greatly by field. Also, this guideline sets the bar fairly low, which is natural: to a degree, academics live in the public arena, trying to influence others with their ideas. It is natural that successful ones should be considered notable.
Proposed revision

  • An article's assertion that the subject passes this guideline is not sufficient. Every topic on Wikipedia must have sources that comply with Wikipedia:Verifiability. Major awards must be confirmed, claims of impact must be substantiated by independent statements, reviews, citation metrics, or library holdings, and so on.
  • Once the passage of one or more notability criteria has been verified through independent sources, or through the reliable sources listed explicitly for this purpose in the specific criteria notes, non-independent sources, such as official institutional and professional sources, are widely accepted as reliable sourcing for routine, uncontroversial details.

  • The criteria above are sometimes summed up as an "Average Professor Test": When judged against the average impact of a researcher in a given field, does this researcher stand out as clearly more notable or more accomplished?

  • Note that this is a guideline and not a rule; exceptions may exist. Some academics may not meet any of these criteria, but may still be notable for their academic work. It is very difficult to make clear requirements in terms of number/quality of publications. The criteria, in practice, vary greatly by field. Also, this guideline sets the bar fairly low, which is intentional. Academics live in the public arena, trying to influence others with their ideas. It is natural that successful ones should be considered notable.

Any input would be much appreciated! Thanks all! Ajpolino (talk) 19:12, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Why did you take out "or through the reliable sources listed explicitly for this purpose in the specific criteria notes" as a way of confirming a pass of these notability criteria?? This is far from a noncontroversial change. It heads right back into the big debates we have had over these issues in the past. For instance, if a university declares on their official web site that one of their professors has a certain endowed chair, and we agree that this chair meets criterion C5, why should we demand that someone independent of the university publish the same fact? If the IEEE announces that someone is an IEEE Fellow (an example explicitly given in this guideline as a pass of C3), why do we need a local newspaper to copy their press release in order to believe it? If this is an oversight, please fix it. If it is an intentional change to the guidelines, I oppose making these changes.David Eppstein (talk) 19:20, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
@David Eppstein:   Facepalm Ah, my mistake. I had citation metrics in mind when I changed "have been verified through independent sources, or through the reliable sources listed explicitly for this purpose in the specific crtieria notes..." to "has been verified through independent sources (see reliable sources explicitly for this purpose in the specific crtieria notes)". Since you're the only one to comment so far I'll revert that part of the proposed changes. Sorry to edit the proposal along the way! Hopefully my comment here makes clear to others what you were opposing and why it was a problem. Thanks for taking a look. Ajpolino (talk) 20:24, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Ok, thanks! The rest of your changes look uncontroversial to me, and somewhat of an improvement. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:29, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
What about adding to The criteria, in practice, vary greatly by field the phrase and are determined by precedent and consensus? Xxanthippe (talk) 22:27, 18 September 2019 (UTC).
That sounds good to me! The degree of variation from field to field does seem to be something frequently misunderstood at AfD. Ajpolino (talk) 01:11, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Removing the first clause of "to a degree, academics live in the public arena, trying to influence others with their ideas..." doesn't seem sensible. Most academics don't "live in the public arena" to any meaningful degree. I think I'd be happy to drop this whole bit though, including the vague "Also, this guideline sets the bar fairly low, which is intentional." Johnbod (talk) 23:01, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  • 100% agree with what David Eppstein and Johnbod said here. (We know from the history of the guideline and its archives that the bar was intentionally set high and stating otherwise has always seemed odd to me.) SusunW (talk) 23:20, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I'd also support removing that whole bit (i.e. "Also, this guideline sets the bar fairly low... successful ones should be considered notable"). Does anyone know the intended meaning of those sentences? I tried not to remove something I didn't understand... Also my understanding is that this bar could be considered low in that topics that may not meet GNG can still be notable under this guideline. But that "low" bar is intentional. The previous wording is that the bar is set low, "which is natural". But I'm not sure what meaning is intended by "natural"... Ajpolino (talk) 01:11, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
I’m happy with the changes after David’s suggestion and with Xx’s clarification. I’d suggest waiting on J’s change because if the bar is thought to be too high in practice, removing the note saying that it shouldn’t be seems a step in the wrong direction. (Phone edit apologies for abbreviated names etc.) -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 02:48, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
  Done Implemented proposed changes with Xxanthippe's proposed addition and with the last few sentences back to the way they were. Thanks all for your comments. Happy editing! Ajpolino (talk) 16:01, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

We should dump criterion 9Edit

This says: "#The person is in a field of literature (e.g., writer or poet) or the fine arts (e.g., musician, composer, artist), and meets the standards for notability in that art, such as WP:CREATIVE or WP:MUSIC." And if they are an elected national politician, or have competed in the Olympics.... We don't need to say this, it's just meaningless redundancy, and just bulks out what already seems a long and complicated list, and seems like over-reach. It should go. I'm pretty sure this has been said numerous times before. Johnbod (talk) 03:44, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

I tentatively agree with this, but on the other hand, if you are an inexperienced editor trying to figure out whether some professor you want to write about is notable, it may be informative. signed, Rosguill talk 04:22, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
Well, ok, but it also gives the incorrect impression that anyone who is an academic has to meet NPROF. As others say below, the lead covers this more fully. Johnbod (talk) 16:25, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
I agree with removal of the criterion. I never see this cited in AfDs. Instead in AfDs for articles on people that fail NPROF but meet CREATIVE (e.g. some notable artists have "visiting professor" status at universities), folks tend to say "Keep per NCREATIVE". The lead of this guideline already states "It is possible for an academic not to be notable under the provisions of this guideline but to be notable in some other way under one of the other subject-specific notability guidelines." I think that's sufficient. Ajpolino (talk) 16:02, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
Agreed. This falls outside of the scope of this guideline and those other guidelines are already linked in the box at the top listing all of the other notability guidelines. It might be helpful to specifically note this but I don't know where to do that or where to draw the line on what merits this kind of helpful note and what doesn't. ElKevbo (talk) 16:11, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
cr. #9 is definitely unncessary since you have this statement in the lede: "It is possible for an academic not to be notable under the provisions of this guideline but to be notable in some other way under the general notability guideline or one of the other subject-specific notability guidelines. Conversely, failure to meet either the general notability guideline or other subject-specific notability guidelines is irrelevant if an academic is notable under this guideline." --Masem (t) 16:21, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Mark Alan HershkovitzEdit

Hi, guys! I found that the Simple English, Spanish and Chinese Wikipedias have an article on simple:Mark A. Hershkovitz, an American botanist who named various species of plants. I would like confirmation if this would be notable on the basis of his academic credentials or his status on naming plants. I find it odd that he's an American but doesn't yet have an ENwiki article.

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 09:47, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Naming species is definitely not notable by itself (it's what all taxonomists do, and not all taxonomists should be notable). But his citations on Google scholar are unusually high for what is usually a low-citation field (he has four publications with over 100 citations each). It's probably enough to get by on criterion C1, at least for me. Of course, you'd need published and reliable sources about him, not just well-cited publications, in order to have the material for an encyclopedia article. I suggest you not start with the :simple: article that you link; its English is too low-quality and its sources too lacking. The Spanish article looks a little better, although the minor honor that it mentions doesn't look like enough for #C2. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:56, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
David Eppstein, I don't see those highly-cited articles in GScholar. I do see a few highly cited ones when I search for "Mark Alan Hershkovitz", but they seem to be from different persons. Perhaps you have a better way of searching, can you provide some titles (or links), so I can look those up? Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 10:04, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
Try "M A Hershkovitz". Phil Bridger (talk) 10:17, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
Thanks Phil, I used the full first names, but this works better and confirms what David wrote above. I agree that this person meets PROF#C2. --Randykitty (talk) 10:49, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
  Done Mark A. Hershkovitz (ported simple EN article). I read David's comment after the fact, but the prose was so small that it just seemed like a list anyway. I found a document on the National Library of Medicine that goes a bit into his career, so I cited that. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:01, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

John Charles Polanyi PrizesEdit

Is getting a John Charles Polanyi Prize for young researchers enough to meet PROF? I stumbled upon this award in this article, where it appears to be the only claim to fame. --Randykitty (talk) 11:50, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

No: "the Government of the Province of Ontario has established a fund to provide annually up to five prizes to outstanding researchers in the early stages of their career who are continuing to post-doctoral studies or have recently started a faculty appointment at an Ontario university. In 2019, the prizes have a value of $20,000 each and are available in the areas broadly defined as Physics, Chemistry, Physiology or Medicine, Literature, and Economic Science." Not very close. Johnbod (talk) 14:16, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
I agree. Too junior and too local. (The criterion asks for national or international so provincial is not enough.) —David Eppstein (talk) 16:42, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
This might be a point we should hash out in greater depth. I mean, Ontario is a big province. It has about 40% of the country's population, a proportion that's like the largest five states of the US combined. The fact that it's an award for junior work seems to count more against it than its being "local", for that definition of "local". XOR'easter (talk) 17:12, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
Not nearly enough by itself to pass WP:Prof. Xxanthippe (talk) 22:50, 29 September 2019 (UTC).
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