Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft

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Latest comment: 23 days ago by Nigel Ish in topic Use of David Irving as a source
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DC-10 Twin article edit

A new article, McDonnell Douglas DC-10 Twin was created on Jan. 30, 2024. I checked my copy of the Douglas Jetliners book and it does not mention the DC-10 Twin anywhere. So I had to remove that source and tag the text. If you have other sources try to help where you can. Thanks, -Fnlayson (talk) 03:47, 6 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

From the article, it looks like a design study that was dropped without being built - similar to the 3 engine 747 by Boeing that also never flew. Perhaps include it in the history/development section of the main DC-10 article. Not really noteworthy enough for its own article.  Stepho  talk  04:11, 6 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Yes, that sounds like a good plan. I have no real preference here. -Fnlayson (talk) 04:23, 6 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Definitely merge across. It wasn't even a single study, just something that fell out of a few proposals down the line. So it should be merged across in bits, wherever appropriate, and not even as a coherent section. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:02, 6 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

I just merged the Twin article a few minutes ago. This article was a stub with the same coverage as the section in the main McDonnell Douglas DC-10]] article. Thanks -Fnlayson (talk) 01:58, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Turkish enthusiasm edit

There has been a rash of Turkish fan/nationalist editing in the last couple of days, especially at Fifth-generation fighter. Nothing wrong with that as such, but they are frequently breaching Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Eyes welcome. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 07:50, 23 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

And now edit warring at Fifth-generation fighter. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 13:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Infobox in jet fighter generation articles edit

There is a discussion at Talk:Fifth-generation_fighter#Infobox_type about including Template:Infobox aircraft type in generic articles on the various jet fighter generations. All comments much appreciated. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:39, 24 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

More input still needed to resolve the issue. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 12:18, 29 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

German aircraft nomenclature edit

A user (User:Troy von Tempest) is mass editing articles on German 1930s–40s aircraft to eliminate the space between model number and variant letter - claiming "German aircraft nomenclature dictated no space in between aircraft model number and variants" - e.g. [1]. They reinstate their preferred verion when reverted and raised a Teahouse discussion (Wikipedia:Teahouse#Henschel_Hs_129_and_others) to defend their edits. That discussion didn't come to a conclusion (which is unsurprising as the Teahouse isn't the place for that sort of discussion), but other editors did point out what appeared to be official RLM documents - i.e. aircraft manuals etc - which used the opposite way of presenting the designation. I'm starting a discussion here to try to obtain some sort of consensus.Nigel Ish (talk) 13:30, 25 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

As stated in Teahouse discussion many books (user is referring to multiple books having no spaces) simplit omit the spaces because authors/editors don't know or don't care. Or simply for layout reasons. Primary sources like Luftwaffe manuals always show these spaces. --Denniss (talk) 13:39, 25 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Aircraft registrations are having italics removed by the same user, it has been my understanding for many years that aircraft registrations are classed as an aircraft's unique name and are treated the same as ships and aircraft names, MOS:NAMESANDTITLES supports this. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 19:18, 25 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
On the model-variant format, people in wartime generally had better things to worry about than spaces within designations. Many contemporary documents show a general disregard for consistency, with different offices or even typists each doing their own thing. It is common enough for modern works, e.g. William Green in Warplanes of the Third Reich, to omit spaces, while others such as Dan Sharp in his Secret Projects series include them. Both are common enough. For a general encyclopedia which follows mainstream practice, it is thus a subjective editorial issue.
On the registrations typography, it is unusual for published works to italicise them. Names yes, registrations no. I never do, here or anywhere else. If Wikipedia has a consensus to do so then perhaps it should be challenged.
Sorry to be a bit of a wet blanket. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:32, 25 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thank you Steelpillow, what I can say is regarding modern works, most of my books use the model-variant format that seems to upset Denniss so much. I just ask why there is no consistency on Wikipedia regarding that. If Denniss really feels this strongly about it, which apparently he/she does, why doesn't he/she go and edit out all the errors on all the other pages, instead of just the ones I edit? How do he/she explain that often, within the same article, often within a line or two, both formats are in place? Why does Denniss not do something about those? He/she only seems motivated to do something when I'm concerned Troy von Tempest (talk) 23:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Regarding italics for radio codes, if you are of the opinion that they should always have italics, why don't you go and edit the hundreds of examples in Wikipedia that do not have italics. I suggest that the majority of articles do not use italics, so where is the consistency here? Troy von Tempest (talk) 23:29, 25 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Denniss has reversed all my edits in the Dornier Do 217 article, yet has left many examples in the article that are, according to him/her, incorrect. Why is it ok for an editor to claim I'm mistaken, reverse all my edits, yet "overlook" the many examples of "incorrect" nomenclature that still exist within this article? How can he/she allow this to be? Where is the consistency here? Within the same article! Why didn't he/she correct these other "mistakes" months or years ago? Or when he/she reversed my edits? In all good faith, how is it possible for him/her to not care what other contributors have done in this and other article, for years, yet pounce immediately I do it? Surely it's all or nothing? Otherwise it appears to me that he/she is only bothering to impose his/her opinion when I am the subject. Everyone else gets a free pass Troy von Tempest (talk) 23:48, 25 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
The wider behaviour of another editor is not relevant to article talk pages. Suffice to say that you should always WP:assume good faith; the WP:BRD (Be Bold - Revert - Discuss) advice offers ways through the issue, and the user's talk page is a good place to make polite contact. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
Inconsistency within articles and comparison with other articles is a result of editors 'doing their own thing'. We have policies and guidelines but it's human nature not to follow them. I could spend a working week (40 manhours) ensuring all German WWII aircraft articles have spaces in their designations only to be followed by another editor proclaiming that the spaces are 100% incorrect and removing them. This cycle is similar to painting the Forth Bridge.
There are approximately 21,000 aircraft type articles, not even a team of editors working together can align them all. The only hope is that there is an unwritten rule that long established conventions are respected by editors for the sake of article and project stability. It seems clear that these aircraft articles had spaces in the designations and were stable, to determine how many were using spaces and how many were not would involve a long winded survey by many editors, very possibly coming to the conclusion that the majority were using spaces (i.e. what was suspected anyway). The existence of the official flight manuals is being ignored, imagine a reader posting on this or an article's talk page to ask why an article disagrees with an official source, in many cases where this happens I refer them to the editor who added the disagreement. Consensus is the guideline being ignored here.
Not so long ago all the Breguet article titles were changed to Bréguet by one editor on the strength of one vintage postcard. It's odd that none of the French articles including the founder don't follow this format. Of the 18 different language articles listed in the company article Wikidata entry only the English Wikipedia uses the diacritic format.
'Most of my books' is not compelling evidence to change an established convention but is better than one postcard I suppose. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 11:44, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think it is essential for an Encyclopedia to use the correct official form of designation and I feel the flight manuals referred to earlier are proof positive that there should be a space between the model number and variant. I suspect many books omitting it is due to American bias as their aircraft are always in the form P-51A etc. I do not think it would be a large task utilising AWB to ensure all mentions in articles of German aircraft conform to the correct format. A few years back I ran AWB to ensure that there was a space between the manufacturer and model number and to correct Me to Bf when appropriate plus wrong capitalisation HS, BF etc. Happy to work on this if consensus is achieved that it should be done Lyndaship (talk) 15:51, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Use of David Irving as a source edit

I've started a discussion on the use of David Irving's The Rise and Fall of the Luftwaffe in the Dornier Do 19 and Junkers Ju 89 articles at WP:RSN - here.Nigel Ish (talk) 18:30, 4 March 2024 (UTC)Reply