Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/1st Army Group (Kingdom of Yugoslavia)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Kges1901 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 23:20, 13 November 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

1st Army Group (Kingdom of Yugoslavia) edit

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (talk)

This is the overarching article for the Yugoslav army group that tried to defend northern Yugoslavia during the April 1941 Axis invasion of Yugoslavia. It is part of a ten-article Good Topic that will hopefully become Featured soon. Have at it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:09, 27 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5 edit

to the German-led Axis invasion of the Yugoslavia in April 1941 unnecessary article before Yugoslavia.
Germans seized bridges over the Drava river --> "Germans seized bridges over the Drava River"
the Royal Yugoslav Army Air Force (Serbo-Croatian Latin: Vazduhoplovstvo vojske Kraljevine Jugoslavije, VVKJ) Second Serbo-Croatian link in the body.
The template isn't letting me unlink this, I have asked at the template talk page. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:12, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
intact bridge over the Mura river at Gornja Radgona --> "intact bridge over the Mura River at Gornja Radgona"
Serbian/Serbs is overlinked.
withdrawing to a line south of the Sava river --> "withdrawing to a line south of the Sava River"
from the Drava to behind the Bednja river to conform --> "from the Drava to behind the Bednja River to conform"
air reconnaissance assets were based.[54][33] Re-order the refs.
Done down to here. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:12, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
across the Rječina river from Sušak, but the order was soon --> "across the Rječina River from Sušak, but the order was soon"
to the deteriorating situation in the flanking 4th Army.[60][42] Re-order the refs.
through the Dravinja river, Zidani Most bridge and the right bank of the Krka river --> "through the Dravinja River, Zidani Most bridge and the right bank of the Krka River"
towards Maribor, and crossed the Pesnica river in inflatable boats --> "towards Maribor, and crossed the Pesnica River in inflatable boats"
Standardise the usage of directions like I see "north-eastern" and "northwestern".
Triglavski fell back to the southern bank of the Krka river --> "Triglavski fell back to the southern bank of the Krka River"
counterattack v. counter-attack
on Yugoslav airfields in the 7th Army area, including Ljubljana Link Ljubljana and unlink the second Ljubljana in the body.
Done down to here. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:42, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't note a have a citation.
I'm working on this being WP:BLUE. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:42, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Some time later, other elements of LI Infantry Corps attacked Merge "Some time".
No, that's not right. When some is being used as an adjective regarding time, like long time or short time, they are separate. Sometime means an indefinite or unspecified time, ie he will wash the car sometime. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:45, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
endangered units on the right wing of the 7th Army --> "endangered units on the right-wing of the 7th Army"
This is also not right. It should only be hyphenated when acting as a compound adjective, ie right-wing politics. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:54, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
but construction of a bridge near Maribor --> "but the construction of a bridge near Maribor"
divebombers supported the breakout of the 14th Panzer Division Split divebombers.
the 27th ID numbered about 2,000 effectives when the German attack began --> "the 27th ID numbered about 2,000 effective when the German attack began"
No, effectives is the right word here, meaning effective troops. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:01, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Held up by freezing weather and snow storms Merge "snow storms".

I think I'd reviewed anything I've got. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:28, 28 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for your review, CPA-5. I believe I've addressed all your points? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:01, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think you did. Great job as always, keep them going PM. Always fascinating how you wrote an article. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 17:36, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass edit

"File:Junkers Ju 87B dropping bombs.jpg" - the link to the source is dead.
Updated links with Wayback Machine. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:52, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"File:Damaged bridge over the Drava, April 1941.jpg" and "File:German patrol returning from Yugoslavia.jpg" - could the page number be included in the source details in each case?
Actually they both have the pages in the description or other info parameters. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:52, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 19:59, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the image review, Gog! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:52, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All images are appropriately licenced. Gog the Mild (talk) 09:46, 30 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source review edit

Why are you hampering visually impaired readers by using refbegin and refend?
Footnotes consistently formatted
Add an ampersand to your refs to match the formatting in the footnotes for multi-author works.
Add language to Geografski
Barefield is a master's thesis as is everything through the School of Advanced Military Studies. So not RS.
Otherwise all refs are from reputable authors and publishers--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:36, 16 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:03, 16 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Good to go.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:04, 19 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Zawed edit

Lead: "Revolts of Croat soldiers": would "Revolts by..." read better?
Background: "Generals better suited to the trench warfare of World War I...": I'm not sure how generals could be better suited here? Is it mindset, training, experience etc...?
Formation and composition: I wonder if it would be helpful to identify the various divisions eg. 27th ID at this point, perhaps by way of a OoB infobox?
I've struggled with this idea for a while, but decided against it because I'm trying to keep this as a higher-level summary. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:50, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Mobilisation and deployment plan: How was the 1st Cavalry Division to be deployed?
Zákány bridgehead: "some commanders began to discharge some or all of their troops, and most troops began to retreat"; suggesting rephrasing to avoid repetition of "troops"; perhaps the first instance could be personnel?
Barcs bridgehead and the Bjelovar rebellion: in the second paragraph, there is quite a few instances of the term "rebels" in the final few sentences, I wonder if this could be varied a little?

That's it for me. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 07:56, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Zawed. All but one done. I'll think again about an ORBAT box. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:50, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Understand your position RE the OoB box. Happy to support. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 08:26, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by AustralianRupert edit

Support: G'day, PM, I have largely been avoiding this topic area for awhile now, but as this has been sitting here for some time, I figured I should help out. This looks pretty good to me, but I caveat that I don't know enough about the topic area to critically analyse the sources or information presented. Regardless, the content of the article seems comprehensive to me as a lay person and I have the following suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 10:12, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

along the Yugoslav-Hungarian border: endash?
had low firepower --> "had limited firepower"?
headquarters of 1st Army Group --> "headquarters of the 1st Army Group"?
with artillery and anti-aircraft artillery --> "with field and anti-aircraft artillery"?
deployment plan for 1st Army Group --> "the 1st Army Group"?
had broadcast the following message: ~~had~~
poor response to mobilisation of both men --> "mobilisation orders for both men"?
Germans that the Yugoslavs would not be resisting stubbornly at the border --> "Germans that resistance at the Yugoslav border was weak"?
on 10 April, on the following day: probably don't need "on the following day" here
but were hindered --> "but was"?
LI Infantry Corps were tasked --> as there are so many different formations being talked about here, it might help the reader to add the nationality in front of this designation (and others) every now and then
Despite this, German forces along the front of the 7th Army --> "Despite this, German forces along the 7th Army front"
along the line Maribor—Ptuj and further --> endash rather than an emdash
suggest maybe combining the separate subheaders in the 10-11 April section to become "4th Army sector and the fall Varazdin" - as the sections are quite small
one anti-aircraft battery --> link battery
are there any consolidated casualty figures that might be added to the fate section?
Sadly, there are no Yugoslav casualty figures for the April War, the aftermath was so chaotic all records were lost or destroyed. There are no casualty figures for this specific formation, but I could include the total German casualties from the invasion (which were insignificant). Let me know what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:24, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that would be a good addition, I believe. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:19, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
in the notes U.S. Army and lieutenant general are probably overlinked
"New York, New York" --> "New York City, New York"?
ISBN or OCLC for the Geografski institut JNA?
Not that I've been able to find. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:24, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if Note A shouldn't in fact just be included in the main text
At this stage, I think I'll leave it consistent with the Army articles. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:24, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. AustralianRupert (talk) 09:19, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate you having a look, AR, it is never easy reviewing in an area you don't know, but you'll have to take it on trust that my Serbo-Croat is good enough to reliably translate Terzić (a former Yugoslav general, who wrote the enormous two-volume history of the April War, which is by far and away the best source available, although it does have its own biases). The main source in English is the US Army military history publication, although it is a bit old, and frankly, a lot of those immediate post-war US campaign summaries were created with the help of captured German generals, so I use them with care. I'm pretty sure I've implemented all your suggestions except where noted, including a query. Here are my edits. Thanks again, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:24, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, your changes look good. In terms of languages -- best I have ever achieved was a few words of broken Pashto and Dari; I've forgotten most of it now. I think I might have accidentally asked someone for roasted shoe in Arabic once, too, when in a "chow line". Come to think of it, I got pretty sick after that meal -- so maybe it was someone's shoe (or worse). Anyway, thanks for your efforts with the article. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:19, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Great stuff. My Turkish is similar to your Pashto and Dari, all I can remember twenty years later is hoşgeldiniz (welcome). Added the casualty info. Thanks again, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:43, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Pendright edit

Lede:

... facilitated by [fifth column] elements of the Croat nationalist Ustaše. Revolts by Croat soldiers broke out in all three divisions of the 4th Army in the first few days, causing significant disruption to mobilisation and deployment. The 1st Army Group was also weakened by [fifth column] activities ...

The 2nd fifth column is linked, but it's not the 1st time mentioned.

Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:53, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

... until the night of 7/8 April, ...

Unclear?

In what way? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:53, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

<>I should have said it is unclear to me, because it is not a phrase or term that has crossed my path until now. So, please set me straight. Pendright (talk) 00:37, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The time from the evening of the 7th to the morning of the 8th. Because it is clearer than "the night of 7 April". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:35, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

... the staffs of 1st Army Group, 4th Army and 7th Army on 11 April, the 1st Army Group effectively ...

Consider the definite article "the" before 1st Army Group

Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:53, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

... but were quickly brushed aside by German armour as it drove towards Sarajevo.

What is your concern? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:53, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

<>Oops, ny apology! Pendright (talk) 00:37, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

... reliance on draught animals for transport,...

I wonder if the meaning of draught animals will be understood by most readers?

Linked to working animal

Fifth column activity was also ...

Unllink Fifth column.

But this is the first mention in the body. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:53, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

<>I stand crrected! Pendright (talk) 00:37, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Formation - Mobilisation:

However, on the same day as the coup, Hitler issued Führer Directive 25 which called for Yugoslavia to be treated as a hostile state, and on 3 April, Führer Directive 26 was issued, detailing the plan of attack and command structure for the German-led Axis invasion, which was to commence on 6 April.

... which called for > "that" called for ...

<>Not addressed! Pendright (talk) 00:55, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

... treated as a hostile state, and on 3 April,

Because of the length of the sentence, consider replacing the comma with a semiclon and deleting and.

<>I withdraw the comment, but suggest that you reread the sentence for its clarity of flow. Pendright (talk) 00:55, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pause here - back soon! Pendright (talk) 05:35, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

4th Army sector:

... seized the intact bridge over ...

seized the bridge, in tact, over

Mura bridgehead:

With the deteriorating situation on the right flank of the 42nd ID, 4th Army headquarters ordered it and Detachment Ormozki to withdraw from the Drava to behind the Bednja River to conform to the line being held by the 27th ID on its immediate ...

Add the definite article "the" before the 4th Army...
Reducing the number of times (4) the word "to" is used might improve the reading quality.

Barcs bridgehead and the Bjelovar ...:

At this point, the entire divisional sector was defended by the divisional cavalry squadron which had been transported there in requisitioned cars due to the lack of horses.

A comma is needed after squardron.

Headquarters 4th Army reported the presence of the rebelling units ...

Consider this: The headquarters of the 4th Atmy...

7th Army sector:

... but were forced to withdraw due to German pressure.

Add the definite article "the" before German pressure.

After having been grounded for most of the day by poor weather, in the afternoon, Yugoslav bombers flew ...

Replace the comma following afternoon with "the".

XXXXIX Mountain Corps ...

Place the definite article "the" before XXXXIX

Over the next three days, LI Infantry Corps held the lead elements of its two divisions back to some extent while the

Add the definite article "the" before

LI Infantry Corps.

Set off "to some extent" with commas.

Fall of Zagreb:

Held up by freezing weather and snowstorms, on 10 April LI Infantry Corps was approaching Zagreb ...

Remove the comma after snowstoms and place it after April - this completes the inroductory phrase.
Add the definite aticle "the" before the name LI.

Barcs:

Units of the infantry regiment which

Change which to "that".

7th sector:

When it received this information, [the] 2nd Army headquarters ordered [the] LI Infantry Corps to form ...

[the]

About 06:00 on 11 April, [the] LI Infantry Corps

[the]

Finished - Pendright (talk) 00:21, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for your review, Pendright. You often pick up my infelicitous punctuation and grammar errors. Just one thing I am querying. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:48, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect that each of us just bring different skills to the table. All comments have been addressed; I'm happy to support this nomination. All the best! Pendright (talk) 20:13, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.