Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Assessment/List of aviation shootdowns and accidents during the Iraq War

List of aviation shootdowns and accidents during the Iraq War

Article passed a peer-preview a year ago, contains 150+ references, a good lead, etc. and I believe that it meets all the requirements for A-class. Maybe it needs some work in expanding the introduction. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:17, 22 February 2010 (UTC) Comments

• The quote in the lead from Brig. Gen. Stephen Mundt should be trimmed to remove the number of helicoptors lost in Iraq and Afganistan. Including that number confuses the reader because it is out of date and covers both theaters, not just Iraq (which is the focus of the list). I suggest "In March 2007, Brig. Gen. Stephen Mundt said that he was concerned that helicoptors lost in Iraq and Afganistan were not being replaced fast enough."

Some editors asked for official sources that show the number of shootdowns. I think this gives us an estimate for the situation back in 2007. I'll try to find another source. -- Magioladitis (talk) 08:44, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Any luck finding another source? Or maybe one that speaks to only the Iraq theater? If you can't find a more recent one, I suggest wording something like "By March 2007, U.S. Army officials had said that at least 130 helicoptors had been shot down". Honestly, that may not be any better. I understand the desire to have an official source for some number but if the official source confuses the count used in the article I think it does more harm than good. -SidewinderX (talk) 16:29, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything more recent. Most of the links use out list. -- Magioladitis (talk) 17:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

This one discusses only shootdowns and not accidents, I think. -- Magioladitis (talk) 17:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, until something better comes along, what's there will do. It's not a deal breaker. -SidewinderX (talk) 22:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

 Done A more recent and complete report published and added to the text. -- Magioladitis (talk) 00:40, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

• The V-22 sentence in the lead makes claims that are not supported by the source. Either find a source for the claims, or remove them. IMO, just replace them with the statements from the source, which all support the V-22 as an improvement over existing helicoptors. The sentence, as written, claims that it is no better or even more vulenerable.  Done
• The lead should mention that the list does not include unmanned aircraft of any type. (Or perhaps the article should be moved to List of manned aviation shootdowns and accidents during the Iraq War?)  Done
• "The change of tactics of the US Army resulted in reducing the number of shootdowns." This claim comes from a seemingly off-hand comment in the last line of the source, which doesn't actually say anything about a change in tactics (only "precautions"), and doesn't specify the US Army (on "military"). I suggest that the line is just removed, it doesn't add much IMO.

We have to comment the reduce of the shootdowns in the last years somehow. I 've no idea how. -- Magioladitis (talk) 08:44, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

• • Maybe try and directly paraphrase the article more closely (mention the decline in violence and precuations... I guess tactics is an acceptable subsititute for "precautions" -SidewinderX (talk) 16:29, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

 Done 22:05, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

• It seems like the style here is to link the aircraft in each instance, which I agree with. I noticed a few that weren't wikilinked, scan through again to make sure everything that needs to be wikilinked is wikilinked.  Done
• Maybe wikilink aircraft names in the table at the bottom?  Done
• Scan through again and make sure that tense is being used constantly (seems like present is the choice of the article, fine IMO)  Done

Looks like you're almost there! -SidewinderX (talk) 12:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments! I ll do some today but my iinternet access is a bit limited till April. I ll do most of the stuff in 2 weeks. -- Magioladitis (talk) 07:53, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I did the best I could. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:17, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Magioladitis has put plenty of work into this article... Support! -SidewinderX (talk) 22:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

• Nice work! I do have a couple of issues that should be addressed though:
  • Helicopters, 2008: The IqAF no longer uses the "triangle eight" (if I may coin a phrase?) roundel. The only 'roundel' used now is the national flag. Changing this would probably be a good idea (as in the 2005 Comp Air crash, which shows the correct 'roundel'.)  Done
  • Helicopters, 2006: May 27 AH-1W crash is unreferenced.  Done
  • Helicopters, 2005: Referencing of December 26 AH-64D collision is unclear. August 30 OH-58 crash unreferenced.  Done
  • Helicopters, 2004: September 4 "Kiowa Down" incident unreferenced. August 11 CH-53E crash unreferenced. April 11 AH-64D shootdown unreferenced. April 7 OH-58 shootdown unreferenced. January 13 AH-64 shootdown unreferenced.  Done
  • Helicopters, 2003: October 13 OH-58 crash unreferenced. August 28 CH-47 writeoff unreferenced. Destruction of March 23rd AH-64D writeoff unreferenced.  Done

**Fixed-wing aircraft, 2008: November 28 C-23 accident unreferenced.  Done

• • Fixed-wing aircraft, 2003: April 7 F-15E crash unreferenced.  Done

Fixing these up should be the only work needed. :) - The Bushranger _{Return fire}^{Flank speed} 01:16, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Done all! -- Magioladitis (talk) 07:51, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Support. Nice work. - The Bushranger _{Return fire}^{Flank speed} 17:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose
  • No source is provided for the statement that "At least 278 personnel have been killed in helicopter crashes since the invasion, and 19 have died in fixed-wing crashes."

It's based on the counting from the data given in the lists. -- Magioladitis (talk) 08:15, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

How do you know that the casualty figures reported in all of those news stories turned out to be accurate? The figure could potentially be lower if any of the stories over stated the number of casualties. Nick-D (talk) 10:46, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

• • The mention of Operation Desert Badger in the lead seems out of place given that this article covers operations during the Iraq War

What do you think we have to do about it? -- Magioladitis (talk) 12:00, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Remove it - it's irrelevant to the topic of this article Nick-D (talk) 23:22, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

 Done Removed. -- Magioladitis (talk) 09:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

• • The 'Summary per type' and 'Summary per year' are sourced to the article, and not an external reliable source. As a result, these figures may not include all loses.

There are all double-checked by the links given in the External links section. No link covers the whole period of 7 years. -- Magioladitis (talk) 08:15, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Given that most of those references don't appear to be reliable sources that doesn't really address my concern I'm afraid. Moreover, given that the news stories were generally written at the time of the shootdown or accident, how do you know that none of the aircraft were later assessed as being repairable and repaired (the tables are claimed to be 'losses') or that none of the media releases and news stories miss-identified the aircraft? (which is hardly uncommon). Nick-D (talk) 10:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

• • There's some inconsistency with how military units are named (eg, "2nd Squadron, 6th Cavalry Regiment, 25th Combat Aviation Brigade, 25th Infantry Division" and 2-6 CAV both appear; I'd suggest using the first option as it's clearer to people who aren't familiar with US military abbreviations. 'CAV' and 'Cav' and 'AVN' and 'Avn' both also appear)
    • •  Done Renamed all Avn to Aviation Brigade and Cav to Cavalry Regiment. there were 15-20 of them in total. -- Magioladitis (talk) 10:40, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
      • Are there any more that I should rename/fix? -- Magioladitis (talk) 09:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Why is a book about an incident which occurred in the 1990s listed as being 'further reading' for this article on losses which occurred from 2003 onwards?

Because this books refers to many incidents happened after 2003. -- Magioladitis (talk) 12:00, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

• • Several of the external links don't appear to be reliable sources or add any value beyond what's in the article

Example? -- Magioladitis (talk) 08:15, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

http://www.jjraymond.com/political/articles/helicopters112004.html (seems to be someone's personal blog), http://www.water-revolution.org/iraqheli.html (dead link and not a very likely source judging from the URL, http://www.pom-tom.de/Losses_OIF_dat2006.html (what makes this reliable?), http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0790850820070208 (reliable, but contains nothing that's not already in the article) Nick-D (talk) 10:46, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

• • The entries need to be checked for inaccuracies such as "An AH-1W SuperCobra 165321 from HMLA-369 shot down near Ramadi, killing the two pilots" - SuperCobras are crewed by a pilot and a pilot/gunner. There are a number of other entries claiming that these helicopters and Kiowas have two 'pilots'

    Comment: The crew for these aircraft is two qualified pilots. One pilot occupies the gunner position. In the Kiowa Warrior, the left-seat pilot sits in the copilot/gunner (CPG) position; However, it is the pilot in the right-seat, referred to as the pilot, who fires the weapons.--Born2flie (talk) 22:39, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

  • There are a number of problems with references:
    • Is http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1992.html (and other pages from this website) a reliable source?
    • A page number is needed for ref 155 "MG Thurman Testimony"
      •  Done Magioladitis (talk) 10:47, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
    • Ref 182 ("Operation Iraqi Freedom") is a dead link

Tagged as dead link. I 'll try to find an active one. -- Magioladitis (talk) 11:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

• • • A number of references are missing access dates Nick-D (talk) 06:03, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Which ones? I checked almost all and I found none. -- Magioladitis (talk) 08:15, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Refs 38, 57 (used multiple times), 64, 65, 78, 79, 82, 85, 86, 88, 89, etc. There are quite a lot. Nick-D (talk) 10:46, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Working on them right now. -- Magioladitis (talk) 11:02, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

 Done Added accessdates to all links. Updated 1-2 links. Found 1 dead-link. -- Magioladitis (talk) 12:00, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I think I fixed every issue came up. Anything else is has to be done? -- Magioladitis (talk) 22:00, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The article still contains an unreferenced statement about total casualties, and unreferenced summary tables. The aircraft types are also greatly over-linked. Nick-D (talk) 07:32, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

The aircraft types are not over-linked anymore. -- Magioladitis (talk) 00:39, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Bgwhite completed the delinking. -- Magioladitis (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

@Magioladitis, you did a ton of work on this article, it seems very clean and appears comprehensive, yet it's been sitting on the waiting-for-assessment list for the past eleven years. What can I do to help get this finished? Is there consensus here? Were there any unaddressed criticisms? EVhotrodder (talk) 01:55, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

• I'm not sure whether the Aviation project's A-class process remains active, but this could be nominated via the Military History Wikiproject's very active A-class process. The last two sections of the article need references though - e.g. to establish that the figures do in fact reflect all losses given that Wikipedia isn't a reliable source for itself. Nick-D (talk) 08:42, 24 June 2021 (UTC)