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Maurice Ravel

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Ravel is the latest in a series of articles on French composers I have worked on with FA in mind, following Gabriel Fauré, Francis Poulenc, Jules Massenet and Camille Saint-Saëns. I have incorporated existing material and written new parts. As always, comments on content, style, prose and pretty much anything will be gratefully received. Tim riley talk 17:36, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Comments from SchroCat edit

I've made a few tweaks here and there, all per the MoS, and nothing that affects the readable text.

Not too much leaps out on a first sweep except a couple of minor points:

Lead

  • I'm not sure about "Born to a music-loving family, Ravel attended France's premier music college, the Paris Conservatoire; was not well regarded by its conservative establishment, whose biased treatment of him caused a scandal." There seems to be a word missing or something…
    • A very recent mangling by yours truly while trying to split an overlong sentence. Shall amend. Tim riley talk 13:11, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Last years

  • "Clovis Vincent, a well known Paris neurosurgeon": shouldn't that be hyphenated?
    • When I come to power hyphens will be made illegal as cruel and unusual punishment. I think you're right, and I'll act on that thought. Tim riley talk 13:11, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Late additions

  • The Epitonic.com link in External Links is dead.
    • I'll check if it has reincarnated and blitz if not.
  • I suspect someone will ask about Alt text on the images...
    • And quite rightly too. I'm usually scrupulous about this, and can't think why I overlooked it this time. It shall be attended to.

More to follow on a proper read through. - SchroCat (talk) 13:02, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Smashing stuff so far, bless you! Looking forward to more, at your leisure. Tim riley talk 13:11, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And now done. Tim riley talk 13:28, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Annoyingly thin pickings on this, and this is more nit-picking than anything else:

  • Was he always known as Maurice, rather than Joseph?
    • He was. It seems to be, or have been, a particularly frequent practice in France to give double- or even triple-barrelled baptismal names but to use the final part as the actual name for all practical purposes. My last patient in this chair was Charles-Camille Saint-Saëns, son of Jacques-Joseph-Victor Saint-Saëns (known as "Victor") and Françoise-Clémence Saint-Saëns (known as "Clémence"). Hyphens may be cheaper in France if bought in bulk. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Early years

  • "formal general schooling": does the "general" add anything?
    • I meant as opposed to musical schooling, but the adjective can go if you think it should. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done to the end of "Scandal and success". More anon – SchroCat (talk) 16:13, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

War

Last years

  • "In October 1932, Ravel": you've not used the post-date comma previously...

Music

  • "famously the boléro and pavane": worth a link to bolero, which you haven't done so far?

Operas

  • "E. T. A. Hoffmann" you include the full stops here, but don't with other initials

Done to the end of "Other vocal works", in this highly enjoyable and informative piece. – SchroCat (talk) 22:04, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Orchestral works

  • "In the 1930s Ravel" – "he" can safely be used here

Recordings

  • "Ravel recognised the potential of recording to bring his music to a wider public. Throughout the 1920s there was a steady stream of recordings of his works, some of which featured the composer as pianist or conductor." This could be one flowing and logical sentence if you replace the full stop with an "and"?

Footnotes

  • FN8: "and the critics Michel Calvocoressi.[46]" Was there another name to add, or should critic be single?
  • (FN13: A man after my own heart!)
  • FN21: The American post-date comma slips in again
    • both done. (And after my heart, too. All this and crème brûlée!) – Tim riley talk 11:01, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me. Another fine piece, and please drop me a note when you go to FAC. – SchroCat (talk) 07:10, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, SchroCat, for this. Your keen eye has saved me from several gaffes and has much improved the article. Tim riley talk 11:01, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dr. Blofeld edit

Slow progress here as I'm sidetracked by learning BWV 998!

Don't think I know it. I'll dig it out on the excellent Naxos music-streaming library. Tim riley talk 14:59, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Tim riley: Watch the first 12 minutes here. You'll be a better man for having listened to the full work!♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:01, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Done, and very glad of it. Thank you, Doctor, and good luck with getting it under your fingers. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link jazz seems as baroque is linked?
    • No objection to linking jazz, but I thought it was a term everybody would know. Content to link, though, if you prefer. Tim riley talk 14:58, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His piano music such as Gaspard de la nuit (1908) is exceptionally difficult to play" -you might elaborate a little on why that is "with technical demanding passages" or whatever.
    • Partly technical but also partly disguising the technical difficulty and maintaining the mood. For instance in Gaspard de la nuit the pianist has to play repeated staccatos at precisely the same volume and frequency. There are plenty of individual examples, but I'm struggling to find some catch-all description other than hideously difficult. Ravel actually admitted that in Gaspard he had among other things set out to write a piano piece even harder to play than Balakirev's Islamey, which was until then seen as the ne plus ultra of pianistic difficulty. I could add something about "making unprecedent technical demands of pianists", but I think I'd rather leave this to the main text, though I'm not adamant on the point. Tim riley talk 14:58, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've added a footnote quoting Steven Osborne on the difficulties of Gaspard. I think you might find his whole article (linked) worth reading. Tim riley talk 11:07, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Early years
  • "He was close to, and took after, his father, whom he eventually followed into the engineering profession." -seems a lot of commas here, can you find a better way to reword?
    • Good point. I had trouble with this (do you find the same, that reviewers can always spot the bits one struggled with?) and will revisit.
  • "Ravel was much struck by the new Russian works conducted by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov.[18] This music had a lasting impact" -much struck/lasting impact is really the same thing and repetitive. You might reword here I think.
    • That's the great value of PR! This very sensible point was obvious to you but I'd never have spotted it in a year. Shall tweak. Tim riley talk 14:58, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Paris Conservatoire
  • "a Violin Sonata" -if it's not a definite subject should it be capitalised?
Scandal
  • (orchestrated 1910 ) -is the gap intentional after 1910?
    • It was to leave room for WWI. No, sorry, who could possibly want to! A typo, and it shall be repaired. Tim riley talk 15:27, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Société des Concerts Français -no link, or did you link it earlier somewhere?
    • I don't much want to add a red link to an article that is highly unlikely ever to exist. The Sociéte seems to have been an umbrella organisation for French musicians performing in Britain. I know Saint-Saëns performed in London under its banner, but that's about the sum of my knowledge, and there's nothing online that I can see, or in the books I have been consulting, that deals with founder, duration, artists etc. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
1910
  • Link Albert Carré?
    • Good. Thank you! (Never crossed my mind he'd have an article.) Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and took him immense trouble " - perhaps "an immense effort which took several years to complete"?


War and 1920s
  • I see his short stature is mentioned again. Do we know his actual height seems as you've made a thing of it?
    • I've mentioned it in a footnote. I could put it in the main text if that would help. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tzigane ( 1924 -we have another gap :-)
  • Montfort-l'Amaury -always useful for the reader to know what department it is in (Yvelines).
Comment. As I'm keen on both classical music and jazz I must say that I find it most interesting composers of his era who bridge eras and how he used elements of jazz in with classical. I must check out some of his works. I love the quote "Whatever sauce you put around the melody is a matter of taste. What is important is the melodic line." -I'm sure many jazz musicians would too! Very true! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:46, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Last years
  • "a well-known Paris neurosurgeon" -Parisian?
    • Don't know if he was Parisian, but he practised in Paris. cf a Mancunian surgeon and a Manchester surgeon; if I were in that line of business here I'd be a London surgeon but a Liverpudlian surgeon. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes, that hadn't occurred to me!♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:16, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Operas
  • "Ravel completed two operas, and worked on three others. The three were Olympia, La cloche engloutie and Jeanne d'Arc. The first was to be based on E. T. A. Hoffmann's The Sandman; he made sketches for it in 1898–89, but did not progress far. La cloche engloutie after Gerhart Hauptmann's The Sunken Bell occupied him intermittently from 1906 to 1912, " -a bit confusing here, why no mention of the two competed ones and then I'm not sure what you're referring to with The Sandman, the firs tof the completed ones or "Olympia", the first of the others he worked on? Can you reword to avoid this? It becomes clearer what you've done as I read on with a paragraph to each of the completed ones but tweaking "The first" to "Olympia" might make this less confusing initially.
    • I'll clarify. This is another passage I wrestled with, and you have again homed in unerringly. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The critic David Murray writes" -was this independently or in a given publication?
    • It's in the references for anyone who might want to know. I'm not sure we need single that book out for mention in the text over so many of the others I have referred to. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Orchestral
  • "During his lifetime it was above all as a master of orchestration that Ravel was famous." -Perhaps "renowned for" would work better than famous here.
Piano
  • "Some pianists continue to attract criticism for over-interpreting Ravel's piano writing." -such as? Some examples and elaboration might be useful here. Perhaps a footnote with some examples and reviews?
    • I'll add a footnote. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • And now done. Excellent idea: there's some good stuff in that thar footnote. – Tim riley talk 11:01, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • There could be something more descriptive about his actual compositions in these sections I think. What keys did he favour, what style, speed etc. How were dynamics used to create tension in certain pieces. In his classical-jazz pieces, did he use exotic scales and chromaticism, whole tone etc? How did he fuse together elements of jazz? Some examples and influences would be useful I think. Something which illustrates more of a musical understanding. Perhaps User:Smerus could help with that?♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:49, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Writing for the non-specialist reader, as we are bidden to, I try to keep these technicalities down to a minimum. I hesitated over the modal/major/minor sentence for instance, and I don't think the general reader would thank us for any more jargon. Ravel did indeed use exotic scales in the form of modes (mentioned), and dabbled in whole tone (which is a technicality too far for a Life-and-Works article I think). Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Honours
  • "At 2015 the maison-musée" -is "at" intentional here? I usually use "As of 2015" but you might disagree.
    • I do. "As of" is an Americanism that I abominate. (Perfectly fine in AmEng pieces, of course.) Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

An enjoyable read!♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:50, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your input, Doctor. Some very useful points there. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ssven2 edit

Lead
  • "Born to a music-loving family, Ravel attended France's premier music college, the Paris Conservatoire; he was not well regarded by its conservative establishment, whose biased treatment of him caused a scandal." — This can be rephrased as "Born to a music-loving family, Ravel attended France's premier music college, the Paris Conservatoire. He was however not well regarded by its conservative establishment, whose biased treatment of him caused a scandal."
    • Hmmm. "However" is a woolly word, almost (but not quite) always better avoided. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After leaving the conservatoire Ravel found his own way as a composer,..." — Shouldn't there be a comma after "conservatoire"?
  • "piano music" — Perhaps "works with the piano".
    • Four words instead of two to say the same thing, I'd say. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ravel was among the first composers to recognise the potential of recording to bring their music to a wider public." — a small elaboration stating whose music would be good there.
    • Not in the lead, I think, but worth a footnote in the main text, which I'll add. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Early years
  • "Ravel senior" — Better to standardise it as Joseph.
    • I'll ponder. Not sure that standardisation is necessarily an advantage here, but will review. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Paris Conservatoire
  • "One of his few distinctions as a student was the first prize in the piano competition in 1891." — Does the reference for this sentence or any other reference state the name of the competition?
    • It was the annual competition for the students of that piano class. There was no trophy or named award.Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for these suggestions. I'll add a footnote on other composers who took to recording in the early years of the gramophone. Tim riley talk 09:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Now added. Please see what you think. Tim riley talk 11:01, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome. It was a pleasure to read the article. You have excelled yourself with this one, Sir. Never knew who Ravel was before seeing the article. :) Knew Debussy though from the first Twilight saga film, Twilight (2008), where Pattinson and Stewart do a little waltz to one of Debussy's works. The mention of Debussy prompted me to make the suggestions here. Personally, I am more of a Johann Strauss II admirer (his "Blue Danube" always gets me floored whenever I hear it) and also love Beethoven and Mozart. May I ask whom do you admire most out of all classical musicians? — Ssven2 Speak 2 me 12:18, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Don't mention Debussy! His article is not nearly as good as it ought to be, and I think I must in conscience add him to my to-do list. My own loves? The usual suspects, you know: Mozart, Bach and Beethoven, and, as my FAC track record shows, English and French composers of the 19th and 20th centuries. Tim riley talk 11:01, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As I thought. Hope to see this as an FA soon. Please do add Debussy to your to-do list. Also Mozart, Bach, Beethoven and Lizst's articles in addition to Debussy need copyediting and citations. Will do all I can to help you in your endeavours, Sir. Oh, and Enthiran's issues raised by SandyGeorgia have finally been resolved. I will nominate it for FAC after Easter. Do let me know if you would like to make any further comments there. — Ssven2 Speak 2 me 14:54, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jerome Kohl edit

  • I have just tagged a phrase that jumped off the page at me because it seems to be using the word "modernism" to vaguely describe some style of music different from "impressionism". The link there is to the main Modernism article, rather than to Modernism (music), but that makes very little difference since neither of those two articles clarifies the issue. The general modernism article not only describes impressionist painting as an early phase of modernism, but also speaks in one breath of composers as diverse as Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, Bartók, and Messiaen as "modernists", whereas the musical modernism article follows Dahlhaus in attaching the word mainly to German composers from 1880 to about 1930. None of this seems to be what is meant (by the cited source, Orenstein?). It is also plain from both of those articles that modernism is more a philosophical attitude than anything else; if Orenstein is using it as a style descriptor, then it would be a good idea to identify better just what he is talking about. I find when people start using the word as a style descriptor, it usally sounds as if they have one particular composer in mind or even one particular composition, but prefer keeping this information to themselves. The familiar "we all know what we are talking about" sort of consensus turns out to be nothing of the sort, since in fact readers assume very different things, and any plausibility in the discussion proves to depend entirely on the structure rather than on any substance. It does raise all sorts of suspicions concerning the soundess of their arguments, but at least by concealing the evidence they make it more difficult to attack their position.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 21:57, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I absolutely agree. The phrase was a legacy of a 2008 expansion by a now-vanished editor. There were good things in it, jumbled up rather, but also some OR and unreferenced material. When upgrading an article with FAC in mind I try to keep everything that's already there that meets the FA standards, but I ought to have blitzed this, and now have. I've added a bit about jazz themes within a conventional structure. Thank you most kindly for this. Tim riley talk 09:38, 6 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Syek88 edit

Thank you, Tim, for pointing me to this article. It has been a great pleasure to read. I have hitherto only been a casual listener, and occasional recreational pianist, of Ravel's music. I learnt a lot. I found the most effective aspect of the article was its structure: the reader who is interested in biographical details goes to the first half; the reader who is interested in musical matters goes to the second. Please do not interpret my comments as anything other than the most minor suggestions. I am sorry for not breaking my comments into sections as the other peer reviewers have done. I read the article three times in different orders. Syek88 (talk) 08:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • The article refers twice to 'orchestral transcription' and twice to 'transcription'. Only on one occasion do I think it is accurate: when 'Lucien Garban and Manuel Rosenthal helped in transcription' of an orchestral score. On the other three occasions, I think it is an inaccurate substitute for 'orchestration' or 'arrangement'. I have always thought that when a composer sets a piano work to an orchestral score, they are doing more than transcribing: they are orchestrating or arranging. (For this reason I think 'orchestral transcription' is oxymoronic and in my searches of academic databases the term is not widely used, although it certainly does appear on occasion.) The Oxford Companion to Music defines 'transcription' as follows: A term often used interchangeably with arrangement. It is however possible to make a distinction between transcribing, as copying a composition while changing layout or notation (for example, from parts to full score), and arranging, as changing the medium (for example, from piano quartet to full orchestra, as in Schoenberg's arrangement of Brahms's op. 25). In a similar vein, Orenstein, on pages 86 and 136, refers to Ravel's "orchestration" of Pictures at an Exhibition (which should be Pictures from an Exhibition, but I digress).
    • You're right. Ravel himself made the distinction (to Rosenthal, I think) between "instrumentation" and "orchestration". I'll amend as you suggest. (I'm not getting involved in the question of the preposition in Mussorgsky's title, as I don't speak Russian; the WP article is "at" rather than "from", and I'm content to follow that.) – Tim riley talk 17:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead of the article states that "His piano music such as Gaspard de la nuit (1908) is exceptionally difficult to play". The section on piano music states "Most of Ravel's piano music is extremely difficult to play". I think the latter is accurate and the former is an over-statement, because it does not contain the word "most". There is a substantial minority of piano works among Ravel's output that are quite achievable for an amateur, both technically and musically: the Haydn minuet, the Sonatine, many of the Valses Nobles. I think some of them are even ABRSM-graded. I can play some of them, and I am the type of pianist who brings local property prices down. [Also, "exceptionally" might be an over-statement. Ravel's music might have been, for the most part, extremely difficult, but was it exceptionally so?]
    • I'll add a "some of" at the top. I think I'll defend "exceptionally". Ravel deliberately set out in Gaspard to write something even harder to play than Balakirev's Islamey, which was at that time seen as the pianistic Everest. – Tim riley talk 17:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • When I read the sentence "Both Ravel's parents were Roman Catholics, although Marie was also something of a free-thinker", it left me with the (no doubt unintentional) impression that being a free thinker would ordinarily be unusual for a Roman Catholic. It stems from the word "although".
    • I meant just what you suggest, but perhaps a neutral semicolon might be more ecumenical. I'll amend. – Tim riley talk 17:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I suggest hyphenating "triple forte outbursts". It was initially not clear to me whether "triple forte outbursts" means fortississimo outbursts or three consecutive forte outbursts and a hyphen would solve the problem. I agree with not using the overly technical "fortississimo".
    • Yes. (I hate hyphens, with a Florentine fourteenth-century frenzy. See Plain Words: "If you take hyphens seriously you will surely go mad.") – Tim riley talk 17:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 24th footnote (which is there to list examples of "over-interpretation") states "In 2014 The Times criticised Khatia Buniatishvili's Gaspard for exaggerated tempi". I don't think this is an example of "over-interpretation" and the Times critic doesn't suggest as such. The critic instead says it is an example of her "[living] by extremes". My own impression of this pianist is that there is not much method or interpretation to her key-banging. The Pogorelich and Long criticisms are more on point and suffice for the footnote's purpose.
    • Good. A most persuasive touch on the tiller. Will do. – Tim riley talk 17:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • If there were one piece of information that I felt was missing from the article, it is the reason why Ravel rejected French honours.
    • It will stay missing, alas. Nobody knows. The theory one sees most (and I think is probably correct) is that he had the hump with French officialdom after the Prix de Rome affair, but Ravel, private as always, didn't tell anyone his reasons, as far as is known. But perhaps I should add a bit to say that nobody knows why Ravel so chose. I'll ponder. – Tim riley talk 17:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a punctuation gremlin at the end of "some of which featured the composer as pianist or conductor".
  • In the sentence "This was his largest-scale orchestra work …", I think "orchestral work" would be better.
  • There is a missing word, probably "it", from "and French composers such as Milhaud incorporated elements of in their work".
  • Pedro de Feitas-Branco should be Pedro de Freitas-Branco.
    • And again! (Can I have been writing this bit late at night?) – Tim riley talk 17:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is marvellously helpful stuff, and just the sort of perceptive comment one comes to PR for. Thank you very much. – Tim riley talk 17:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A few comments from BB edit

Being late in a line of distinguished reviewers leaves me only a few points to fuss over:

  • Is "He is often associated with impressionism ..." a sufficient indicator, in the first line of the lead, of the kind of music Ravel wrote? Compare, say Jules Massenet (yours), Gustav Mahler (mine), Richard Wagner (someone else's).
  • Just a small question about the description of Ravel père as an "industrialist", which generally suggests a captain of industry rather than a smallish enrepreneur.
  • There have been previous arguments about this, but I think you should link Roman Catholic thus.
  • Orenstein's comment on Ravel's student career doesn't make a lot of sense. Having highlighted Ravel's repeated academic failures, he then says that his student career was one of "immense growth". What I suppose he means is that Ravel grew as a musician in this period, despite his poor academic record – but then you say "one of his few distinctions.." etc. In view of the lack of clarity, perhaps it would be better to paraphrase Orenstein rather than quote him.
  • "the young man's musically and politically progressive outlook". First we've heard of the latter – any information as to where this came from, and what form it took?
  • "He was in general a slow and painstaking worker, and this method of composition enabled him to increase the number of pieces published and performed." This seems illogical; he worked slowly, which enabled him to produce more?
  • Why is Satie's comment (1920s, first para) viewed as a "personal attack"? What was Satie implying?
  • Some of the French titles, e.g. L'enfant et les sortilèges and Chansons madécasses could do with translation, to help us poor monolingualists
  • "working on two piano concertos at once" – are the last two words necessary? Or, at least, make it "concurrently"?
  • Does one "lapse into coma" or "lapse into a coma"?
  • Unless I've missed something, I don't think the redoubtable Sackville-West and Shawe-Taylor are properly introduced on the first mention, in the "Orchestral works" section. And there are links to be made.
  • "Most famously" is an expression best avoided, unless the description is incontrovertible.
  • Is there any known reason to explain Ravel's aversion to receiving honours from his own country, while accepting them from elsewhere?

All in all, despite these quibbles, exemplary stuff. Brianboulton (talk) 20:36, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All very much to the point, and all attended to. Thank you for this, Brian. Tim riley talk 08:55, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Closing PR edit

Many thanks to everyone who contributed to the review. Off to FAC much fortified by the suggestions. Tim riley talk 16:11, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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