Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Battle of Manzikert/1

Battle of Manzikert edit

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • GAN review not found

Result: Kept Most of the issues presented here (lead cites, consistently formatted references and Llywrch's comment) go well past what is expected of a Good Article. That leaves the referencing. There is no requirement for a reference per paragraph, instead we require references for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons. There were a few citation needed tags on the article, which generally implies they are challenged so I fixed them up. Otherwise this meets our definition of a Good Article. AIRcorn (talk) 07:23, 20 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

1. The lede of the article has a number of references, which should be avoided. A lede should summarise the article, and references there are unnecessary.

2. The article lacks references.

2.1. The second paragraph in the "Background" chapter has the non-sequitur issue.

2.2. The first three paragraphs in the "Prelude" chapter is not referenced, and the text is sandwiched between the two images.

2.3 The second paragraph in the "Battle" chapter is not referenced.

2.4 The third paragraph in the "Captivity of Romanos Diogenes" chapter is not referenced.

2.5 The first two, fifth and sixth paragraphs in the "Aftermath" chapter are not referenced.

3. There is a problem with the references. The footnotes aren't uniformed. While some just use the author's name, title and page number, other use author's name, book title, publisher, place of publishing, etc. Sometimes, only a link is used. --Governor Sheng (talk) 15:10, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

While I feel point #1 is not significant, points 2 & 3 are. I have started addressing point #3, & will give the citation format a complete overhaul in the next few days when I have the time. -- llywrch (talk) 19:56, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I forgot I made the following criticism about this article back in 2015:

I'm a little surprised that this article was considered GA quality. (I looked for the discussion that promoted this article, but it wasn't linked to this page.) While it is well-written, & I believe it explains its subject for the most part accurately, its sources are problematic. First, it appears to rely on the work of J.J. Norwich, although a decent historian, is more of a popularizer than standard references like Ostrogorsky & Vasiliev -- although mentioning Runciman helps. Another thing this article needs is a discussion of the primary sources: looking at the account in Vryonis' The decline of medieval Hellenism in Asia Minor: and the process of Islamization from the eleventh through the fifteenth century (another standard reference), primary sources for this battle include Niketas Choniates, & Michael the Syrian, & a letter by Manuel to the English king Henry II written shortly after the battle; except for a passing quotation from Anna Komnenos, the existence of these sources are completely ignored -- which hampers any reader who wants to go beyond the secondary sources. Lastly, although I wouldn't use this even as a reason to deny this article FA status, it would be very nice if Turkish sources were used in this article; I believe Turkish academics have written an article or more on this event, & may express some opinions or conclusions that would surprise even citizens of that country.

This concern also needs to be addressed. -- llywrch (talk) 20:03, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Llywrch: your comments from 2015 seem accurate enough, but would you mind confirming which GA criterion or criteria you feel is/are not being addressed by this shortcoming? Cheers Gog the Mild (talk) 21:18, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild, generally my critique on articles focus on how well or complete the subject is covered, & whether the best possible sources are used. Which criteria 2 & 3 address in part. So while I will concede my criteria aren't identical with the official set, yet I feel when my expectations are met so are the GA criteria in this regard. On the other hand, one could write a nomination that meets the official set of criteria, yet fails mine because it doesn't attempt to accommodate to the spirit of a GA, only meet the letter of the requirements. -- llywrch (talk) 21:30, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Llywrch, I think your criteria go beyond what is required for GA. When making these evaluations, one has to use the official criteria and not your personal preferences or what you think GA should be.Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 23:55, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You might be right. But then again, can you explain how the criteria I expressed is critically different from an interpretation of the official criteria? Otherwise, we are merely splitting hairs, a matter that is addressed by WP:IAR. FWIW, I try to pick only articles that I feel either meet, or are close to meeting GA standards; I sincerely don't enjoy telling someone their labors are inadequate. -- llywrch (talk) 06:20, 31 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]