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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Lionel Barrymore on stage, screen and radio/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 23:07, 29 November 2015 [1].

Lionel Barrymore on stage, screen and radio edit

Lionel Barrymore on stage, screen and radio (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 21:44, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Lionel Barrymore was an superb actor whose career ran between 1893 and his death in 1954. Part of America's "Royal Family" of actors, Barrymore is perhaps best remembered internationally for his appearance in It's a Wonderful Life, but some in the US also have fond reminiscences of his annual broadcasts in A Christmas Carol. This list has been updated and re-worked, as it was out of place there and not a full reflection of his work. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:44, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ssilvers comments

I would remove the reference to America's "Royal Family" from the first paragraph. It is not even mentioned in the Lionel Barrymore article. Instead, I suggest you say "Barrymore family of actors." You might consider moving the "Royal Family" nickname and the references to the Lionel Barrymore article.

You mention some biographical information that does not appear in the Lionel Barrymore article. For example, you have a lot more information about Barrymore's feelings about acting and the reasons for his move to and from Paris. It seems very strange to me that the List article should spend considerable ink on this when it is barely mentioned in the main article. I really think you need to move much of the bio information to the main article. Certainly, there should not be anything in your introduction that is *not* in the main ariticle. INSTEAD, the introduction to this article needs a paragraph identifying Barrymore's best-known/most important roles and/or most important directing achievements, and also should state the number of films he acted in. Also, perhaps mention that Grand Hotel and You Can't Take It With You won Oscars for Best Picture.

  • Re-worked to include much of this. - SchroCat (talk) 12:50, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You need to identify what roles he played in his stage appearances. His IBDB page identifies some that you are missing: http://ibdb.com/Person/View/31143. Same with the film roles. I see that the Wikipedia articles on the blue-linked films show what roles he played, so you should be able to fill in these at least.

  • IDBD isn't classed as a reliable source, as far as I'm aware, and so we can't fill in the blanks on those. Ditto the Wikipedia pages for the films. I've included the roles are they are listed in the film, either at the AFI, BFI, or the filmography sources used in biographies, etc. - SchroCat (talk) 12:50, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:SchroCat, IBDB is absolutely a reliable source, with an editorial committee. See this and this. It is totally different from IMDB, which is NOT a reliable source. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:14, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Even better. Cheers Ssilvers : I'll make a start on this tomorrow (hopefully) – SchroCat (talk) 00:36, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
All now added (and a very useful resource too!) Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:08, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Lionel Barrymore article and yours disagree about why he was confined to a wheelchair and mentions an addiction to painkillers. If your sources are clearly better than the ones in the Lionel Barrymore article, please fix it. If not, please clarify the filmography article. In general, you need to review the Lionel Barrymore article and make sure that you make any necessary edits in it to at least harmonize with the filmography, making sure that neither article has any information that the best sources consider to be clearly wrong.

  • I've stripped out much of the biographical info from this, so it should match up now, but I'll give the main LB article a spring clean soon. - SchroCat (talk) 12:50, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The filmography at the bottom of the Lionel Barrymore article is too long. It should be reduced to the most important items.

  • Removed entirely and prople pointed this way. - SchroCat (talk) 11:10, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I know that you are not responsible for the Lionel Barrymore article, which is only about C-class, but if we are going to have a Featured List on him, the two articles should at least be harmonized so that they are not inconsistent; it seems like you are in a good position to do this, since you know the sources. Happy editing! -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:53, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent comments Ssilvers, many thanks. I'm working through these in conjunction with the comments from Jimknut too, first on this list to get it straight and then I'll update the LB article. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 15:25, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You indicated in an edit summary that the intro is limited to 4 paragraphs, but I don't think that's true: this is not a WP:LEAD section; instead it is the intro to a list article. You could add subheadings, though, if the intro gets longer. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:49, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, it still counts as a lede, so we have to limit it to four. We managed it with John Barrymore on stage, screen and radio, so the challenge is to trim out some of the superfluous biography and add the works in seamlessly. I should be able to get this sorted today or tomorrow. - SchroCat (talk) 11:37, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I am now pretty happy with the intro to this, but I still think you should add a couple more mentions of which film roles were Barrymore's most famous ones. Young Dr. Kildare? The Copperhead? Wildfire? Sadie Thompson? Rasputin and the Empress? Maybe just name 2 or 3 or 4 of his most famous ones. My support does not depend on you adding this. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:41, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Jimknut
Resolved comments from Jimknut (talk) 00:47, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Introduction
  • "... and composed music for others" — What films did Barrymore compose music for? There is nothing listed in the filmography to indicate his musical contributions.
  • Dr. Kildare's Wedding Day (I knew there was one in there, but I'd forgotten to add it earlier). Now added - SchroCat (talk) 21:04, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Barrymore had begun a film career in 1911" — "Barrymore began his film career in 1911"
  • "appearing in several silent films" — Webster's dictionary describes "several" as meaning "more than two but not that many". Barrymore appeared in over 80 silent shorts and nearly 60 silent features. Considering this, the word "several" is a gross understatement. I suggest reworking the sentence.
  • "In 1912 he signed a contract with D. W. Griffith" — Did he actually sign a contract with Griffith personally or was it with the Biograph Company? Also, the first film you have listed in the filmography, The Battle, is from 1911 and was directed by Griffith.
  • He appeared in it, but didn't sign up with Biograph until 1912 (according to the sources). I've tweaked slightly to show it was with Biograph. - SchroCat (talk) 21:04, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... and appeared as a character actor in a string of short films" — What do you mean by "a string"? Wouldn't it be better to say that he appeared in short films, then moved into feature length productions in 1914?
  • "and also in a spin off series from the Dr. Kildaire films" — "Dr. Kildare" does not need to be italicized; however it does need to be spelled correctly.

Filmography

  • Barrymore has an extremely long filmography which you broke into two sections (acting and directing). Possibly it might be better if you break the acting part into three section: shorts, serials (although there are only two films), and features.
  • I'm mulling this one over at the moment, but my instinct at the moment is not to split the acting list down. I may still change my mind when I've slept on it, or if others chip in and suggest the same thing - I'll keep you posted - SchroCat (talk) 11:10, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many films are listed as being lost. Where are you getting this information from? I've checked several of your citations (i.e. the AFI catalog online) and I find no indication about whether or not the films survive. You might consider citing the Library of Congress.
  • From the source I am now struggling to find again! (I thought I'd added it as one of the main sources at the top of the table, but didn't). I'm having a hunt round for it at the moment, but if I can't find it again soon I'll follow your suggestion of the LoC, and add the relevant citations. - SchroCat (talk) 11:10, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Jimknut, Do you know if the Silnet Era website is considered reliable? The copyright notice states "Copyright © 1999-2015 by Carl Bennett and the Silent Era Company", which suggests some background that may provide oversight. I'll also ask at the Film project to see if they have any ideas. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:22, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I still can't find the source I had before, so I've cited those I can and stripped out those I can't. - SchroCat (talk) 13:54, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two films (The Exploits of Elaine and Enemies of Women) are listed as "incomplete". What does this mean? Production of the films was never finished? Or they were finished but do not survive complete? You need to clarify this.
  • One done, need to clarify and better source the other. - SchroCat (talk) 11:10, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorted now - SchroCat (talk) 13:54, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • A Family Affair — You could mention that this was the first film in the Andy Hardy series and that Barrymore was replaced by Lewis Stone in the next film.
  • For the Dr. Kildare/Dr. Gillespie films you could mention which which ones were the first and last, plus which one was the last to co-star Lew Ayres.

Radio broadcasts

  • Why does the chart have the heading of "Barrymore's director credits"?
  • The column marked "Broadcast" should be listed as "Title".
  • A Christmas Carol — You list the dates for this as "December 25, 1934 – December 25, 1953". Your notes should state that Barrymore did this once a year at Christmas time.
  • Screen Guild Players: The Old Lady Shows Her Medals — List Screen Guild Players only as the title and in the notes put "Episode: "The Old Lady Shows Her Medals"".
  • Radio all tweaked per your suggestions - SchroCat (talk) 19:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Television broadcast

  • Add this section in and include Barrymore's appearance in Our Mr. Sun.
  • I hope these suggestions help. Jimknut (talk) 19:54, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

These are HUGELY helpful Jimknut, and you have my thanks for them. I'm working my way through them bit by bit and hope to have them polished off shortly. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 15:25, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Support — Looks good. Jimknut (talk) 00:47, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Jimknut - much appreciated. - SchroCat (talk) 11:01, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note - You already have another open nomination (this being the second) with no supports or comments. Do you think it's wise to have two nominations simultaneously? -- Frankie talk 18:42, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • To be honest I'd largely forgotten the Johns list. It should be OK, given the standard of that one, and tha I haven't got anything running through FAC too at the moment. - SchroCat (talk) 11:39, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • To be open and fair (bearing in mind I'm a delegate who should know better), I'm going to ping Giants2008, Crisco 1492, PresN to make a judgement on whether I should withdraw this one temporarily until the Johns list reaches a suitable level of support. I'd hate for my non-action to be used as justification for others wanting to push a second nom onto the list. Thanks for nudging me on this Frankie. - SchroCat (talk) 08:48, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Since it has two supports now, I don't think you need to withdraw any of the list. Thanks for taking care of my comments. -- Frankie talk 12:30, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Frankie. It was my error to begin with and thanks for letting me know. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:53, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Frankie. Since the other article now has supports, and your lists tend to be in good shape to start with, I think we can let this go. Just make sure to double-check that you don't have any early-stage FLCs when preparing future noms. Giants2008 (Talk) 22:11, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Good clear lead, ideal layout and doubtless comprehensive content. I wondered idly why put in all the full stops after Dr and Mr (rather quaint, but still current in AmEng, I know) and yet omit one after Capt. No other quibbles, and the page seems to me to meet the FL criteria. Tim riley talk 07:52, 10 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Godot13

  • Question - do the images need Alt text, or are the highly descriptive captions enough?--Godot13 (talk) 05:02, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm in two minds about these: I'm not sure that ALT text would be hugely useful, given we'll probably just be repeating much of the caption info. I'm still mulling it over tho. - SchroCat (talk) 12:51, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support Looks in excellent shape to me and anything I'd have complained about has been dealt with. This is of considerable value as I've been watching some of Lionel's films of late.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:55, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks Doc - much appreciated. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:51, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comments –

  • "Although he took a break from acting in 1906–1909 to train in Paris as a painter". Usually, date ranges like this have two digits for the last year. The MoS seems to back that up, although I admit that this part of the MoS has some details I'm not in love with. Still, the 1909 could probably be two digits, unless this is some form of British English I don't know about.
  • Quite right— now done. (Not that there is a difference in year ranges anyway, but BrEng wouldn't apply anyway as Barrymore is American) – SchroCat (talk) 00:36, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The publisher in reference 14 (The Guardian) should be italicized as a print publication. Giants2008 (Talk) 00:27, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done - I'd used a web template not a news one.

Cheers Giants, much appreciated. – SchroCat (talk) 00:36, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

One more that I didn't see before: current ref 14 needs a publisher (American Film Institute). Giants2008 (Talk) 23:04, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Great - nice catch, now done. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:29, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Upon reading this list I had no clue to who Lionel was but I found the list of his roles on stage, screen and radio to be vastly comprehensive and the lists easily meets the required guidelines. Good work! Z105space (talk) 10:26, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you Z105space - much appreciated. - SchroCat (talk) 11:01, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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