Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Terms of Endearment (The X-Files)/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 00:43, 13 October 2012 [1].

Terms of Endearment (The X-Files) edit

Nominator(s): Bruce Campbell (talk) 01:58, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not to be confused with the Shirley MacLaine film, "Terms of Endearment" is a later series episode of the X-Files, featuring a guest appearance by a cult b-movie actor. Hopefully another article in a long series of featured material from the X-Files wikiproject, I believe the article meets the criteria for an FA. The article is a current GA, was promoted to an A-Class article, underwent a peer review and has been under seen by numerous editors. Bruce Campbell (talk) 01:58, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment One major concern—the "Reviews" mixes contemporary reviews with retrospective ones. It's important that we separate these to get an idea how a work has received over time. Compare with the FA Triangle (The X-Files).—indopug (talk) 12:39, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Moved around some of the reviews so they're sorted in more of a chronological manner, now has seperate sections for Initial reception and later reception. Bruce Campbell (talk) 00:07, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'll try to chip in with a more-thorough review and copy-edit later, but it looks mostly good.—indopug (talk) 02:28, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Good job. (and can't help but laugh at how appropriate is the name of the user nominating this...) igordebraga ≠ 04:31, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed comments from TBrandley moved to talk

Support on all criteria. TBr and ley 18:36, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed comments from Cliff smith moved to talk

Support. Looks like this meets the criteria. Cliff Smith 01:24, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I reviewed this article both at GA and for its A-Class review, and have watched it progress along the way. I believe it's the first FA nom by its nominator so if one of the delegates would like source spotchecks performed, I have most of these sources available to check. GRAPPLE X 14:46, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support I helped make this a GA, and I helped with the A-class by providing some suggestions. This page truly looks wonderful, and deserves to be a FA. I too can spotcheck, if needed.--Gen. Quon (Talk) 01:59, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

~~(Technical) oppose~~ (just because I don't want this overlooked): File:Aleister Crowley, Golden Dawn.jpg needs proper sourcing information. We don't know where it comes from, who the author is (probably not the subject) and thus whether its country of origin is the US or the UK, or whether it was published before 1923. File:Bruce Campbell 2011.jpg and File:RobertPatrickOct09.jpg could preferably do with a personality rights tag &ndasj; see File:David Duchovny 2011 Shankbone.JPG) Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 12:28, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since all File:Aleister Crowley, Golden Dawn.jpg is supporting is a quote, the image can either easily be removed or replaced with one of the other ones from here, but they all seem to have the same issue. I've removed it here. Bruce Campbell (talk) 13:19, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what I can do about the Bruce Campbell and Robert Patrick files, either I'll replace them with more valid ones or work out the personality tags. Bruce Campbell (talk) 13:19, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've added personality rights tags to the images in question. Both are simply being used as an accompaniment to discussion of uncontroversial roles they've acted so I'm happy enough there's no actual issue with personality rights in using them. Crowley could go if it's problematic, there's probably room for another free file to replace it if necessary. GRAPPLE X 14:43, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I replaced the Crowley one with another free version. Granted, it's not as spooky as the others, but it is him.--Gen. Quon (Talk) 16:27, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid File:Aleister Crowley, Ceylon 1901.jpg has the same problems – OK, so we've got "Ceylon, 1901" but no author or how the uploader has got the file - what book or website. Either would be enough to render the file potentially non-free. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 16:36, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Alright; with this edit, the article now features no image of Crowley and now uses one of Chris Carter, the man who greenlit the episode. There are tons of images of Crowley in commons but they all have the same dubious sourcing problems evidently. That particular image has previously been utilized in featured content so I'm fairly sure that all image concerns have been addressed. Bruce Campbell (talk) 16:55, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(undent): Indeed, now clear - it's another in the personality-rights boat, but that is purely advisory and not a requirement. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 18:53, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Added a personality rights tag to the Carter image for consistency. GRAPPLE X 20:53, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate's comment - I'm not convinced the prose is of FA standard. I see fused participles:-

"with Seghers writing that...
"with The X-Files being called "the other drama Fox ordered that spring""

There is lack of flow:-

Along with numerous episodes of the series, "Terms of Endearment" takes a heavy influence from horror films, and features gothic imagery and themes. Along with Rosemary's Baby, the episode contains references to the 1972 film The Exorcist and the 1981 film The Evil Dead." Along with...Along with

This is vague and almost meaningless:-

"The X-Files producer Paul Rabwin was involved with the effects presented within the episode."

This is grammatically incorrect:-

"Owens reported that because of the dislike people had in the character he was playing..."

These are just examples. I would like to see more work on the prose and spotchecks before I consider closing the nomination. Graham Colm (talk) 21:34, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I agree with Graham, the prose falls short of the standard required of an FA. A few examples:

"The first five seasons of the series were generally filmed in Vancouver ...". How do you "generally" film?
"... however, production during the show's sixth season took place in Los Angeles, California." Misuse of the word "however".
"Along with most of the season, 'Terms of Endearment' was filmed there." The best one can say about that is that it's very awkward.
"In order to make the scene frightening, producer John Shiban noted that the film crew made 'a big deal out of the eyes'." No, that isn't why Shiban noted anything.
"By the time Weinsider is defeated, the audience is lead to identify with him partially." Have none of the supporters actually read this article?
Reviews of the episode were mixed from critics upon its first broadcast.". Semi-literate at best.
"Years following the episode's originally broadcast, critical reception was more positive." What on Earth does that mean?
"Owens reported that because of the dislike people had in the character he was playing ...". You don't have dislike in, you have dislike 'of.
"The character had a severe disbelief in the paranormal". How can a disbelief be severe?
"... having her child stand-in for a child-demon was a conflict of her faith." No, it was in conflict with her faith.

I want to stress that these are just a few examples, and that simply fixing these will not change my vote. The whole article needs work. Malleus Fatuorum 22:58, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll give this a copy-edit later tonight. However, I'd like to say, comments like "semi-literate" and just generally trashing the supporters and nominator is not called for. Tone down the insults, and just give the examples. If there is one thing in this world that bothers me more than anything on Wikipedia, it is editors who believe that only they are the masters of the English language, and insult others over small grammatical errors (yeah, in the big scheme of things, these are rather easy things to fix). This has been peer-reviewed, copy-edited, and passed several other checkpoints, so its not as if we threw this out of no where.--Gen. Quon (Talk) 23:16, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Hey stop this. I see no insults or trashing. These are valid comments on the prose, not on the nominator or the other reviewers. Graham Colm (talk) 23:23, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You may say whatever you like Gen. Quon, but I stand by my comment. If these are "rather easy things to fix" then why haven't you fixed them before now? Malleus Fatuorum 23:21, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about my post, I just felt the criticism was a little sharp, and a mere "fix the prose" with examples would have worked better. Consider me being quiet about it now. I'll help to fix it.--Gen. Quon (Talk) 23:52, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not rush the copy edit, I see new errors occurring, "while the performance given by guest actor Bruce Campbell attracting most of the positive reception". This nomination is not going to be closed today! Graham Colm (talk) 23:59, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Graham and Malleus. A few examples follow:

"According to Amann, the initial draft for the episode was "heavier on pure shock value and lighter of humor and human interest".[5] Originally, Laura Weinsider was supposed to give birth to a serpent rather than a demon baby. In addition, the story was initially more "linear", as reported by Amann.[5] The original draft called for the devil to unsuccessfully seek a human baby, leading to the murder of his wife." > repetition: "initial draft", "originally", "initially", "original draft". "Was supposed to" could be rephrased
"The writers felt that this draft of the story model had a certain "inevitability" to it." > rephrase "writers felt", which is "this", what is a "story model"?
"This is not the first occasion that the series has drawn influence from Crowley; a highschool from the episode "Die Hand Die Verletzt" was named after him as well." > avoid using "this" as an unqualified pronoun; rephrase "drawn influence"; "highschool" should be "high school"
"The episode marked the first time a cast member had to withdraw mid-production for religious reasons." > rephrase "episode marked the first time"
"She stated that, although the fact that The X-Files was her favorite show, she was a devout Catholic and having her child stand-in for a child-demon was a conflict of her faith" > awkward with "that" "that"
"Director Rob Bowman assured her that the dilemma was understood" > passive; who understood the dilemma?
"Campbell's casting was inspired by this series of events" > haven't a clue what this means
"Several of the creative forces behind the failed Brisco County, Jr. later found a career working on The X-Files," > creative forces found a career?
"One of the major themes of the episode revolves around the horrors of child birth." > a theme can't revolve around something

These are only selected examples. But I'd suggest a good copy-edit for it to pass criteria 1.a of WP:WIAFA. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:03, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.