Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rockstar North/archive1

Rockstar North (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator(s): IceWelder [] 19:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the video game developer Rockstar North, previously known as DMA Design. Founded in 1988, it has been a cornerstone of the British and Scottish video game industries for decades, notably creating the Lemmings series in 1991 and Grand Theft Auto a few years later. A studio for Rockstar Games since 2001, it still is the principal GTA developer, most recently making Grand Theft Auto V. Because of the studio's rich history, I seek to make it the second FA in the Rockstar Games GT I have been working on for some time. The article also eclipses my original FA, Rockstar San Diego. Many thanks go out to Vacant0 for reviewing the GAN back in July. IceWelder [] 19:32, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Vacant0

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I'm glad that I got pinged. I'll leave a review, as promised. Vacant0 (talkcontribs) 19:35, 22 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'll finish off the review tomorrow. Vacant0 (talkcontribs) 11:50, 31 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Friendly ping @Vacant0, just in case. :) IceWelder [] 23:02, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support I've had an another look at the article and did not spot any major issues. Vacant0 (talkcontribs) 17:59, 7 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - Passes

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Nothing too major wrong. Most of the issues regard the lack of alt text. -- ZooBlazer 00:17, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@ZooBlazer: I added some alt texts. Regarding the metadata in the captions, I have previously been advised not to italicise them. Is there a guideline on this? For the video, what would be a better descriptor than "pictured"? The comma is definitely correct per MOS:GEOCOMMA. IceWelder [] 13:50, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It's all good then. Interesting about the italicizing because I was just basing it off my experiences with FAC and I think FLC, where I was told to italicize things like that. Image review passes. -- ZooBlazer 17:33, 1 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Shooterwalker

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Review incoming. Going to try to work through most of the history section. We can then circle back for the lead on a second pass. Shooterwalker (talk) 21:09, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Background and formation
  • This needs a good first sentence. I understand that most readers will read the lead first, but the lead is supposed to follow the body. Something to alert the reader as to why David Jones is the focus (since he will eventually found the company).
I amended it slightly, although I do want to note that I modelled it on Rockstar San Diego's body introduction. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • By that token, consider adding a "see also" for David Jones.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Jones is linked in the first sentence, a See Also section seems unnecessary. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is well-written. I'd just ask if the first three paragraphs are more appropriate for the David Jones article. Instead, this article could briefly summarize his schooling, his work at Timex, his termination and further education, and early work in games under the "Acme" name. Compare Bill Gates versus Microsoft, just as a comparison.
I disagree somewhat. This is mostly to introduce Jones's work with Dailly, Kay, and Hammond, especially in the context of the KACC, which were paramount to the creation and early years of the company. The few details on Jones's background are meant to show why he wanted to venture into game development and how me managed to afford it. I don't mind also having parts of this on Jones's article, but I do believe its inclusion here is justified. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let's revisit this, after you've had some time to think about the organization. Again, this is excellent writing and research, and should be covered somwehere. But this article should start closer to the beginning of the company's story, not the founder's.
Initial games with Psygnosis and Lemmings
  • "to meet other game developers" -> this is a long sentence. Cutting this won't lose much. (Or if you think it's important, divide this sentence into two, so it's less of a run-on.)
Split up. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jones soon began hiring his friends: Dailly, who had just been expelled from college, became the first employee in 1989 and began working on a Commodore 64 conversion of Menace." -> This would also be better as two sentences, or one shorter sentence, with no colon.
Shortened. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "at 134B Nethergate" -> this is another detail that can likely be dropped for improved flow and readability.
I think I would rather keep this, in part to flow into why it's the "Wee Pink Nethergate House". IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • " When DMA Design inaugurated its office there on 1 August 1989, the ground floor housed Gooseberry Bush, a children's clothing store" -> is this important enough to be considered on topic?
Hmm, I found it interesting, but I guess it may not be for most. Shortened. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • " The programmer Ian Dunlop and artist Neill Glancy, working remotely from Edinburgh on a contract basis, were soon made to experiment with Walker" -> this sentence is a little odd in its construction. Seeing as it comes after another sentence about Walker being put aside, I might suggest putting these two sentences as part of the same paragraph. That said, it looks like Walker got a full release, so maybe clarify that they experimented with the tech that they used to make Walker (to eventually make a new game).
    • e.g.: " The programmer Ian Dunlop and artist Neill Glancy, working remotely from Edinburgh on a contract basis, were soon made to experiment with Walker" -> "Working remotely from Edinburgh, programmer Ian Dunlop and artist Neill Glancy were directed to experiment with the technology from Walker".
Amended, though I want to keep it in its current location because it leans into how Lemmings came about. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • " and, with fatigue for Lemmings at the studio, Psygnosis hired other developers for subsequent entries. Among them, Kay and Visual Sciences made Lemmings Paintball." -> ". With the studio experiencing fatigue for Lemmings, Psygnosis hired other developers for subsequent entries, such as Lemmings Paintball developed by Kay and Visual Sciences."
Amended. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Partnerships with Nintendo and BMG Interactive
  • Just want to pause to say this is extremely well written. I might nitpick some details, just to improve length and readability. But everything is grammatical and mostly clear.
As English isn't my first language, this means a lot! :) IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "According to The Liaison and Promotion Company, Jones had not informed the firm of the impending deal, instead claiming he would partner with another company. such as Virgin Interactive Entertainment. " -> just needs a minor fix
Fixed. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "such that DMA Design refused" -> "and DMA Design refused" (clearer and doesn't lose anything)
Fixed. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The publishing agreement" -> just clarify this is with BMG
Fixed. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The game was never the sole focus of the studio, and several staffers..." -> "As the studio continued work on multiple games, several staffers...
Fixed. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sale to Gremlin Interactive
"Nintendo and its American branch" -> this is unclear here. Is it the Boulder studio?If it's just Nintendo, we could just say Nintendo. Or if Nintendo had two different teams sending two different directives, maybe distinguish between Japan and America.
Clarified this; Nintendo [of Japan] and Nintendo of America had conflicting ideas, thus the game had to be reworked again and again. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "DMA Design began finishing" -> "begin" finishing -- this is one of those instances where past continuous tense makes the directive more clear.
Reworded. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "spun off" -> just to give readers context for the jargon, "spun off into a separate company" would be clearer here.
👍 IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the studio" -> for clarity, maybe say "the new studio" or "the newly independent"
Reworded. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wonder how much we really need to go down the rabbit hole of this other studio. If there's a way to shorten this, do it. But seeing as there is no merge target, I can see why you'd cover it here.
My thinking exactly. I struck one sentence on the target platform for the remake, since this may be covered at the game's article instead. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lawsuit comes a bit out of the blue. Maybe foreshadow that The Liaison and Promotion Company did sue them after tearing up the deal, so we aren't surprised out of the blue that the lawsuit gets resolved here.
Amended. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "DMA Design was one of the founding members" -> "DMA Design became one of the founding members"
Done. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In academics, Jones helped the Dundee Institute of Technology (now called the University of Abertay Dundee) to establish the world-first computer games degree in November 1997, and DMA Design developed games for a game design course at Dundee College in 1998" -> "Meanwhile in late 1997, Jones helped the Dundee Institute of Technology (now called the University of Abertay Dundee) establish an unprecedented computer games degree, as well as creating materials for a game design course at Dundee College the following year."
I wasn't 100% happy with either version but did undertake some amendments. Please check this one again. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sale to Take-Two Interactive

  • "who set out to market the game by having it garner negative publicity" -> "who wanted to use controversy to market the game."
👌 IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At the same time, Ryan Brant was looking to grow the publishing business of his company, Take-Two Interactive. After coming across BMG Interactive, Houser pitched his vision for game development to Brant" -> this is a little confusing as to who came across who. To avoid getting lost in the weeds, "At the same time, Take-Two Interactive was looking to expand its game publishing business, and asked Houser to discuss his plans for BMG."
Reworded. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The acquisition was announced on 29 September and DMA Design was aligned with Rockstar Games, which Houser described as a "perfect match"." -> this is a little unclear. The exact date isn't too important. What does aligned mean here?
Shortened this a bit. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "With three other DMA Design employees, he formed Denki and, in February, Rage Software hired him to lead its new Scotland operations." -> Don't take for granted that readers know Denki is also a game studio. Just make this crystal clear.
Sure. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jones bought out these operations in 2002 to form Real Time Worlds, which went on to hire many former DMA Design staffers" -> this is sort of a crazy story! Just make it clear that Jones personally bought out Rage Software. "these operations" might not be clear to the average reader.
Well, not Rage Software as a whole, just "these operations", i.e. the Scottish studio. Rage Software (England) went bust a year later. I reworded this slightly. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Under Take-Two, DMA Design ceased creating several games at once and was instead made to focus on only few large projects at a time" -> "Meanwhile, Take-Two encouraged DMA to narrow their focus to fewer, larger game projects." (avoid passive voice, and make it clear that Rockstar and DMA are operating in parallel at this point in time.)
Okay. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's possible that you want to make the splintering more clear, by putting it into its own paragraph. This could include Jones's career change and the fate of DMA design in one clear paragraph. It starts to confuse the point to include Rockstar's activities in there, and maybe you want to have two side-by-side paragraphs, explaining things in parallel.
I get what you mean, but the events here (opening of the Edinburgh office, Jones's departure, development focus changes, closure of the Dundee office) happened roughly in that order in quick succession, so I'd most likely keep the chronology as it is now, but I don't want to create one mega-paragraph either. Any particular action you can recommend here? IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • " under the combined brand of "Broadband Studios".[86] Pixel Broadband Studios was developing online-focused game technology, such that the combined Broadband Studios would have increasingly focused on this market.[87][88] " -> consider dropping the details of the non-merge, or simplifying it drastically. There's a lot of detail in this article, and while well researched, we want to focus the narrative on Rockstar (and its lineage from DMA).
Shortened. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Grand Theft Auto trilogy and rebranding as Rockstar North
  • "for the game" -> this is redundant and reads clearly without it
Fixed. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rockstar Games initially sought the studio to produce an expansion pack for Grand Theft Auto III before its expanding scope led it to be considered a standalone product." -> this one is a little unclear. The studio sought itself? I think this whole sentence can be shorter and clearer.
Rockstar North is "the studio", and I wouldn't call Rockstar Games (the publisher) a "studio", but I get how this could cause some confusion. I reworded the sentence. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "San Andreas was released in October 2004 and, within four days, sold 2.1 million copies, 45% above Vice City's sales in the same time span, and generated $101 million" -> "San Andreas was released in October 2004. In just four dates, the release generated $101 million in revenue, while selling 2.1 million copies, surpassing Vice City's sales by 45%."
Reworded. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Grand Theft Auto IV, Grand Theft Auto V, and development collaborations

  • "The game was still announced in 2009 as an exclusive title for the PlayStation 3 but was never released. " -> "As of 2009, the title was still planned as as an exclusive title for the PlayStation 3."
Done. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rockstar North worked closely" -> Meanwhile, Rockstar North worked closely..."
Done. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Grand Theft Auto IV's production encompassed 220 people at the studio and 1,000" -> something missing here?
Oops! IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Upon its April 2008 release, the game broke the record for the highest revenue for a game within one day at 3.6 million copies, generating $310 million" -> "Upon its April 2008 release, Grand Theft Auto IV broke the record for the highest single-day game revenue, generating $310 million from 3.6 copies sold."
Done. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "followed the game up" -> "followed this release"
Reworded. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "core of a more than 1,000-strong team worldwide" -> "core of a worldwide team of 1,000 staff"
Done. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Its 200 million copies sold as of March 2024 make it the second-best-selling game ever and contribute to the more than 425 million total sales of the series" -> "With 200 million copies sold as of March 2024, Grand Theft Auto V became the second-best-selling game ever, adding to 425 million total sales for the series."
Done. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Continued expansion and departure of Leslie Benzies

  • "The studio replaced as tenants the newspaper group The Scotsman, for which the building had been built in 1999" -> The construction "replaced as tenants the newspaper group" is a little odd. I'm not sure the article really needs to describe every detail of the real estate.
Shortened this a bit. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... the studio received £80 million by 2020, 37% of the scheme's total payout of which £37.6 million in 2019 alone, ..." -> this construction is a little confusing. Maybe just split the broader sentence in two.
I took out the 2019 number as it is not as important here. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "had brought about a fourfold return on investment" -> for who? It was a tax credit, but no tax was ever collected after that. Did the scheme involve studios paying it back as a loan or something?
Fixed. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Benzies statement is sort of off topic for the paragraph, and ties more neatly into the start of the following paragraph.
True, but I did have to split the resulting paragraph in two. IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Rockstar North had grown to 650 employees by the time of the game's October 2018 release" -> "By the time the game was released in October 2018, Rockstar North had grown to 650 employees."
Done! IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

We can wrap there for now. This is really excellent work and very close to FA quality. Once again, I'd say most of this is grammatical and fairly clear. I think there are a lot of confusing details of different business restructurings prior to GTA 3, and that makes it harder to describe everything more clearly. I would encourage you to simplify sentences where you can -- see if you can trim some longer sentences with multiple clauses and tangential details. I might even suggest getting really clear on the topic of each paragraph for the first half of the history. The paragraph topics are a lot stronger in the second half, which contributes to it being more readable. Thanks for taking on this challenging article. You're doing great. Shooterwalker (talk) 22:38, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, @Shooterwalker, for the detailed review! Please review my changes that should address most of your comments. For the rest, I left replies above. Regards, IceWelder [] 23:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Things got suddenly busy for me. I'm going to try to find time for a second pass, but it may be closer to the end of this month. At first glance, you've made a lot of progress, and I feel confident this is close to FA quality. Thanks for your work and your patience. Shooterwalker (talk) 15:22, 7 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's alright, I'm not in a rush. I'm happy to receive your comments when you find the time. IceWelder [] 19:39, 7 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Spy-cicle

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My computer is currently broken, but if I find the time and means I’d like to give this a review since I was able to review the San Diego studio.  Spy-cicle💥  Talk? 01:03, 6 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]