Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Louise Bryant/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 13:07, 16 August 2017 [1].
Louise Bryant edit
This article is about Louise Bryant, an early 20th-century journalist, feminist, and political activist, who with her second husband John Reed reported on the Russian Revolution from Moscow. In the movie Reds, Diane Keaton plays the fictionalized role of Bryant during her life with Reed. After Reed's death in 1920, Bryant covered events in Russia, Central Asia, Europe, and the Middle East and interviewed such notables as Mustafa Kemal Atatürk and Benito Mussolini for the Hearst newspaper chain. Her life included a childhood in rural Nevada, a rise to fame in mid-life, and a bleak ending after the collapse of her career, her health, and her third marriage. Finetooth (talk) 02:21, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- Bryant is listed in Category:American anarchists, but on skim, I don't see such political beliefs elaborated in prose (more her husband's and that she wrote about radicals). If she didn't identify as an anarchist, the category should be removed as a non-defining trait czar 15:36, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Comments by Hawkeye7 edit
- Lead
- "Bryant, a feminist, married in 1916 to the more famous writer John Reed". I really don't like this at all. I suggest changing the WP:BEGINNING to "Louise Bryant (December 5, 1885 – January 6, 1936) was an American feminist, political activist, and journalist best known for..." (Note links)
- Couldn't we just state that she married John Reed in 1916?
- And leave out the "more famous"? His article, after all, is only C class. (WP:PEACOCK)
- Link "Bolshevik"
- "to discourage armed U.S. intervention in Russia" But the US was already involved in intervention in Russia. Rethink the wording?
- I've had a go at this, linking to the article on Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War. I don't think this episode is well-known in the United States. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:12, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- "A rare and painful disorder" Let the reader know what it is. (MOS:DONTTEASE)
- "10 years" -> "ten years"
- "worked to restore it" -> "restored it"
- There is no need for the footnotes in the infobox; consider removing them
- Early life, Portland, Greenwich Village and Cape Cod
- Did she legally change her surname to Bryant?
- Gelb says she did not. Added this info. Finetooth (talk) 15:08, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
- Not sure. Dearborn says that "the Mohan children had taken their stepfather's name...". However, when she married Reed, she gave her name as Ann Louise Mohan, according to Gardner. I will keep looking. Finetooth (talk) 22:56, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- "which became the University of Nevada, Reno" In 1969. But it became the University of Nevada in 1906, while she was there. Suggest "(which became the University of Nevada in 1906)"
- True, but that interim name is less important than the name by which people now recognize it. The University of Nevada system now has a campus in Las Vegas. Changed to "and college at Nevada State University (now known as the University of Nevada, Reno)" Finetooth (talk) 15:59, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- Link sorority
- Should "comaraderie" be "camaraderie"?
- Consider moving John Reed's image to the right. (Hmmm that sounds really odd...)
- Link feminist and political activist
- Croton-on-Hudson, Petrograd, New York
- "Reed married her before leaving for surgery" Any idea exactly how, where or when?
- "reported on Pancho Villa". The man, or the Pancho Villa Expedition?
- Link "czar"
- "(the historic names of which also include Saint Petersburg and Leningrad)" Actually (1) that's the lot and (2) why are we using italics? It was formerly Saint Petersburg, and layter became Leningrad (and then Saint Petersburg again.) I'd drop the whole parenthetical phrase, but get rid of the italics at least.
- "General Kornilov" -> "Major General Lvar Kornilov". (MOS:FULLNAME)
- "huskings" "A meeting of neighbours or friends to assist in husking maize." What?
- "during which she was arrested and jailed for three days" For any particular reason? (I realise that in the US you can be arrested without charge)
- Interesting question. I added a fair bit about the burning of Wilson in effigy, a hunger strike, and the charges, including "attempting to make disorderly speeches." Gasp! Finetooth (talk) 22:23, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- Sounds like the Sedition Act of 1918 Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:35, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
- Interesting question. I added a fair bit about the burning of Wilson in effigy, a hunger strike, and the charges, including "attempting to make disorderly speeches." Gasp! Finetooth (talk) 22:23, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- Consider moving note 2 into the text
- Further reporting
- Link Russian Civil War
- Link Rachele Mussolini (and use her real name)
- "(As quoted from the New York American, January 28, 1923, section 52, p. 1)' Move that into the footnote
- Link Constantinople (Why is this the only city where you don't mention its more common name?)
- "Turkish strongman". Ataturk is a national hero, and calling him a "strongman" violates WP:NPOV
- "Bryant gave birth to her only child, Anne, in February 1924" Link Anne Moen Bullitt, give her full name, and you can give her full date of birth as WP:BLP doesn't apply because she's dead.
- Linked. Moved the supporting citation from the infobox to here. Made more clear that the birth came two months after the marriage. I don't think the exact day of the month is important enough to include. Finetooth (talk) 19:34, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- That's fine. I tend to use exact dates whenever possible, to help out people trying to paraphrase me. This comes from years of having to work with the Australian Dictionary of Biography which is frequently necessarily vague. No problem here though. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:29, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- Linked. Moved the supporting citation from the infobox to here. Made more clear that the birth came two months after the marriage. I don't think the exact day of the month is important enough to include. Finetooth (talk) 19:34, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- "she was involved in a lesbian relationship with Gwen Le Gallienne". In view of this, should the article be tagged under WP:WikiProject LGBT studies?
- External links
- Remove this section heading. MOS:LAYOUT: Do not make a section whose sole content is box-type templates.
All looks pretty good. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:50, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks Hawkeye7. I've started these, but it's getting late. I'll come back tomorrow when I'm fresh. Finetooth (talk) 02:57, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- Image review
- File:Louise Bryant.jpg, File:Europe Boardman Robinson.jpg PD - artworks from before 1923
- File:Lee salter overman.jpg - PD - US government crown copyright
- File:Louise Bryant sorority sister.jpg, File:John Reed journalist.jpg, File:Breshkovskaya.jpg, File:Anna Louise Strong 1918.jpg PD - photograph published in the US before 1923 - okay
- File:William C. Bullitt cph.3b11701.jpg LoC says Rights assessment is your responsibility
- File:Sterling Memorial Library 4, September 1, 2008.jpg FoP for buildings in the US built before 1990. Added tag to image.
Source review from Ealdgyth edit
- I randomly googled three sentences and nothing showed up except mirrors. Earwig's tool shows a couple of spots where the prose is probably a little close and could be tweaked a bit.
Comments by Sarastro1 edit
Recusing on this one as it's too interesting to miss out on! Looking good, having read to the end of the Greenwich Village section. Just a few nit-picks so far. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- "she became society editor of the Portland, Oregon, Spectator": This is a little awkward, although correct. Could be rephrase this to avoid the comma overload?
- "The 1981 film Reds tells the story of Bryant's time with Reed.": I'm not sure we need this in the lead, but if we do I'm not sure it's best placed where it is, discussing 1920.
- "Socially popular": Do we need to specify socially?
- "and wore clothes considered by some to be "flashy"" Considered by who? As written, this could refer to her boyfriends.
- "Seeking employment, she landed a temporary job designing a stained-glass window for the Povey Brothers,[11] did some freelance reporting for The Oregonian,[12] and found work as an illustrator and society editor for the Portland Spectator.": There's something about this sentence that doesn't quite work for me; do we need "seeking employment" at all? Or do we change it to say "Needing to find employment because..."? I'm not too keen on "landed" and "did" is a little lacking in elegance; could we not rephrase this as "among her jobs, she designed a stained-glass window for the Povey Brothers, worked as a freelance reporter for The Oregonian and became an illustrator and society editor for the Portland Spectator." Or maybe it's just me...!
- In any case, can we say more about the Spectator? It might be useful to know what kind of publication it was.
- "she met and married Paul Trullinger, a handsome dentist": Is his attractiveness important?
- "...and enjoyed uninhibited parties": I've got to ask... uninhibited how?
- "as part of what Max Eastman, editor of The Masses, called a "gypsy compact"": When did he say this, and in what context? Also, what did he mean by a "gypsy compact"? Sarastro1 (talk) 22:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- He said it on page 213 of his book Heroes I Have Known (1942). Dearborn uses "gypsy compact" as the title of one of her book sections and attributes it to Eastman, whom she quotes at length. Eastman says in part, "[Reed's] companionship with Louise Bryant was based on a joint determination to smash through the hulls of custom and tradition and all polite and proper forms of behavior, and touch at all times and all over the earth the raw current of life. It was a companionship in what philistines call adventure, a kind of gypsy compact." Eastman and Dearborn were being poetic, I think, and the "gypsy compact" analogy is unnecessary. I removed it but left the rest of the sentence intact. Finetooth (talk) 04:24, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking the time to review this. I know you are busy. I'm traveling and stuck with a bad internet connection. I'll work on these suggestions and any others that you or others may have when I get home in about three days. Cheers. Finetooth (talk) 14:37, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
More: I made a few minor copy-edits, and after a few questions, I'll be delighted to support. Sorry for the delay, a very interesting woman and a good read. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:47, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
- "where Villagers including Eastman": Any reason why we are capitalising villagers here?
- "When he returned from Baltimore in mid-December, the couple retreated full-time to Croton-on-Hudson to recuperate and to focus on writing": While it's pretty obvious that this refers to Bryant and Reed, the last sentence refers to "Bryant's ongoing relationship with O'Neill", this may cause a little confusion.
- "After securing press credentials for Bryant, Reed moved to the Harvard Club, and Bryant, setting sail in June, went to France to cover the war for the Bell Syndicate": The number of "Bryant and Reed"s in this section is a little tricky. I'm wondering could this be reworded to flow a little better, something like: "Reed secured press credentials for Bryant and moved to the Harvard Club; she set sail for France in June to cover the war for the Bell Syndicate"
- Also, as they had been struggling financially, and he was something of a persona non grata, how was he able to get her work for the Bell Syndicate?
- "they arrived in the Russian capital city (then Petrograd, later Moscow)": As written, this looks like the city's name changed from Petrograd to Moscow rather than the capital city changed location.
- Can we attribute the long Gardner quotes in text? And maybe say at this point who Gardner is, rather than later.
- "for conspiracy to obstruct the draft": Can we clarify this a little; obstruct how? Which draft?
- Can we say a little more about Bullit? He just appears at the moment, then marries her. Who was he? If there isn't much to say except it's a bit of a mystery why they married, would it make sense to move the quote from the next section from "Louise Bryant grows old"? Sarastro1 (talk) 11:47, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
- I can add more about Bullit. It may take me until tomorrow to decide what to add about him and also to address the Bell Syndicate question. Finetooth (talk) 22:45, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
- I've added some new material about the Bell Syndicate, including Gelb's statement that Reed paid for Bryant's ship passage. On the other hand, I'm not finding anything interesting to add about Bullitt. He was the richest of Bryant's list of lovers but not the most famous and not the last. Finetooth (talk) 18:40, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
- I can add more about Bullit. It may take me until tomorrow to decide what to add about him and also to address the Bell Syndicate question. Finetooth (talk) 22:45, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
Support: A very interesting article, very nicely put together. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:05, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for your kind words and support and for your insightful review. Despite my earlier reluctance, I have now added more about Bullitt. I was concerned about adding too many details about anybody but Bryant, but the more I thought about it, the more it seemed to me that you were right. Finetooth (talk) 01:55, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
Comments and support from Gerda edit
Looking forward to reading!
Lead
- I like a lot, but not "1918. In 1919". If so close, it could be "a year later", - or less close?
- "Leaving her first husband in 1915 to follow Reed" comes a bit as a surprise ;)
- jail and lovers make for another surprise, the lovers sentence needs some punctuation.
- After having read the lead, I don't know where the name Bryant comes from, and if it should be used when speaking about the divorce, and her death.
- I've tried to clarify by adding "As a young girl, Bryant, born Anna Louise Mohan, began using the last name of her stepfather, Sheridan Bryant, instead of her father's name" to the second paragraph of the lead. I have not been able to find what exactly the divorce papers called her, but she retained "Louise Bryant" as her professional name even after her marriage to Bullitt, and that is the name she is best known by. She was described in newspaper obituaries as Louise Bryant. Finetooth (talk) 16:39, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
- Once introduced, I think it's fine to use the name Bryant throughout. What do think of this: "Born Anna Louise Mohan, she began as a young girl using the last name of her stepfather, Sheridan Bryant, instead of her father's name."? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:45, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
- I've tried to clarify by adding "As a young girl, Bryant, born Anna Louise Mohan, began using the last name of her stepfather, Sheridan Bryant, instead of her father's name" to the second paragraph of the lead. I have not been able to find what exactly the divorce papers called her, but she retained "Louise Bryant" as her professional name even after her marriage to Bullitt, and that is the name she is best known by. She was described in newspaper obituaries as Louise Bryant. Finetooth (talk) 16:39, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
Early ...
- "The new marriage produced two children", - not my favourite wording ;)
- "Depressed after the death of Say" - I had to search who Say was.
- Link Southern Pacific?
- "of which she was the first president", - perhaps: "and served as its first president"?
Portland
- "That spring", - better serve someone who jumps to the section by TOC, and repeat which spring.
- Good point. Added the specific year, 1909.
Greenwich ...
- italics for staged works? Perhaps say just "O'Neill", as a reminder that he was mentioned (and linked) before?
- Added italics to the three play names. I'm reluctant to shorten and unlink O'Neill since he is not linked before this in the main text, only in the lead. Finetooth (talk) 17:20, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
- I mean the mentioning with the plays, which is the second under the same header, not linked, but with given name. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:44, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
- Added italics to the three play names. I'm reluctant to shorten and unlink O'Neill since he is not linked before this in the main text, only in the lead. Finetooth (talk) 17:20, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
Petrograd
- I think the image comes too early.
- I don't know what else to do with it. Her image on my screen is directly across from mention of her in the text. I understand the desire to place an image as close as possible to its subject's mention in the text, but sometimes I think layout considerations are more important. For example, I don't really object to moving the sorority image down a bit as you did in the "Early life" section, but on my screen it displaces the "Portland" head. I've been advised by other editors not to displace heads with images; the problem is that now that we have entered the age of handheld screens, I don't know what everything looks like to everybody else or even if a general layout solution is possible. Finetooth (talk) 17:31, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
- In my smaller screen, the "Portland" header is not displaced, but you are probably right about the many, - how about moving that early image up again, but right? I rarely have left images, and never directly under a header, - a missed friend's rule, not to displace the text ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:40, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
- Moved sorority pix to the right. That's a good solution. Finetooth (talk) 17:54, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
- I could move it up too, as you suggest. Which do you think is better? Finetooth (talk) 18:01, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
- I wouldn't move it all the way up, because she wasn't yet Bryant. You could split the first section, for the two husbands of her mother, and put the image with the second. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:12, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
- I could move it up too, as you suggest. Which do you think is better? Finetooth (talk) 18:01, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
- Moved sorority pix to the right. That's a good solution. Finetooth (talk) 17:54, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
- In my smaller screen, the "Portland" header is not displaced, but you are probably right about the many, - how about moving that early image up again, but right? I rarely have left images, and never directly under a header, - a missed friend's rule, not to displace the text ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:40, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
- I don't know what else to do with it. Her image on my screen is directly across from mention of her in the text. I understand the desire to place an image as close as possible to its subject's mention in the text, but sometimes I think layout considerations are more important. For example, I don't really object to moving the sorority image down a bit as you did in the "Early life" section, but on my screen it displaces the "Portland" head. I've been advised by other editors not to displace heads with images; the problem is that now that we have entered the age of handheld screens, I don't know what everything looks like to everybody else or even if a general layout solution is possible. Finetooth (talk) 17:31, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
New York
- same
- Yes. Same reply as above. Moving the Strong image down would spoil the layout by creating a text sandwich since the Overman image is bumped against the Overman paragraph.
- link World War I here which was not linked before?
Thank you for meeting an interesting woman and her world! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:06, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for action! Support! Keep thinking about the images. Perhaps we don't need the senator? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:55, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for your kind words, your insights, and your support. I have removed the Overman image and moved all the others to the right. Fortunately, none is staring out of the page, which is another layout consideration. Finetooth (talk) 18:13, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
Support from RobBertholf edit
I looked through the article, but I was not able to find any issues. Support. Was an interesting and engaging read. - @Rob talk 08:30, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
Coord note edit
I won't hold up promotion over it but I think I'd prefer to see citations for the statements in the second/last para of Bibliography prior to "Below is a partial list of her published work" -- unless all of that info is cited in the main body of the article, which it may well be. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:06, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 13:07, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.