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Kelpie edit

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 04:11, 15 June 2014 [1].


Kelpie (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Nominator(s): Sagaciousphil (talk), Eric Corbett (talk) 20:16, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the mythological Scottish water horse that perhaps still inhabits Loch Ness, not the Australian sheep dog. Accounts of the creature differ so much that it's been quite a difficult subject to make sense of, but here's our effort. We hope you like it. Eric Corbett 22:48, 24 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Possible to make the lead image a bit larger?
  • File:The_Kelpie_by_Thomas_Millie_Dow.jpg should use original rather than upload date. Also, what was the creator's date of death? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:32, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. All taken care of now I think. Eric Corbett 16:54, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I know we're limited by what the sources say, but seems odd that it is a lowland scottish term yet we're talking about Loch Ness (a wee bit north into the highlands)
The answer I think is that pretty much all of the sources are written in English rather than Scottish Gaelic – in fact I can't remember having come across one written in Gaelic – so the writers/translators would naturally have used the Lowland Scottish term rather than the Gaelic cailpeach for instance probably used by the locals. Eric Corbett 10:59, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
is there a reference calling it a demon? Seems a bit....extreme...
Added a definition of the kelpie being described as a demon. Eric Corbett 10:59, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
as alluded to by Robert Burns in his poem "Address to the Deil" (1786). you wouldn't be incline to say..."as alluded to by Robert Burns in his 1786 poem "Address to the Deil" " (so we can ditch the parentheses?)
Done. Eric Corbett
The last sentence of the Description and common attributes looks a bit lonely there at the end - also slightly ambiguous as comes right after the progeny bit. I think it'd be better up nearer the top of the segment as it summarises the range of kelpie's temperament well.
Done. Eric Corbett 10:59, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In the Shapeshifting section, I'd shift para 3 up to near the top - as it is odd to describe "male or female" up top before this para. Be nice if it can be slotted in there somehow or integrated better.
Done. Eric Corbett 10:59, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The nature of the creatures can be categorised as "useful", "hurtful", seeking "human companionship" - in a better spot now...but looks a bit odd plural - can we singularise it?
We certainly can, now done. Eric Corbett 12:44, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Not sure if you want to add this, but I found this. There is a secondary source discussing Mollie Hunter's use of scottish folklore in her work. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:28, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Also a second children's novel Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:31, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think we could maybe incorporate those two books into the Loch Ness section, but I'll wait to see what Sagaciousphil thinks. Eric Corbett 12:48, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I admit I really do dislike 'In popular culture' type sections but I can see adding a couple could be advantageous within the Loch Ness section ... SagaciousPhil - Chat 13:07, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it's nice if you can thread them into an existing section with a natural seguing of content. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:43, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the constructive comments, Cas Liber. Eric has added some detail about the books to the Loch Ness section. SagaciousPhil - Chat 19:27, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah that looks fine. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:03, 1 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support Otherwise looking Over the Line on comprehensiveness and prose - I would not see the noninclusion of the two books as dealbreakers as I know folks are divided on these things (I'd put 'em in, especially with independent reviews, but I realise others wouldn't). Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:35, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We've included those two books now. Eric Corbett 22:22, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by the Doctor edit

  • I gather it is customary to capitalise Lowland? It does stand out to me, not a word I often see in capitals.
  • Yes, it is generally given as an initial cap in the same way as Highlands. SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the lede "most recently in two 30-metre (98 ft) high steel sculptures in Falkirk, The Kelpies." -you might mention the sculptor, just a suggestion.
  • I've added the sculptor, construction and opening dates to the Artistic representations section. SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The first recorded use of the term to describe a mythological creature, then spelled kaelpie, appears in 1759." -Do we know where this appeared?
  • "The creature's nature can be categorised as "useful", "hurtful" or seeking "human companionship" -perhaps described rather than categorised would fit better here?
  • Re-jigged a little to change it to described and included who described it. SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a similar tale also set in Perthshire has an each uisge as the culprit" -Have I missed something? What is an each uisge?
  • Each Uisge is linked in the preceding paragraph; do you think a fuller explanation might be better there? SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it really needs it but something very basic putting it in context might help.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:23, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I' ve added a very brief explanation of what an each-uisge is when the term is first introduced in the preceding paragraph. Eric Corbett 22:17, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aberdeenshire and Perthshire linked but not the Highlands?
  • "A folk tale from the Island of Barra" -you might add ", in the Outer Hebrides". Is it common to capitalise the Island before Barra too?
  • Removed initial cap from island and added Outer Hebrides with link. SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A folk tale from the Island of Barra tells of a lonely kelpie that transformed itself into a handsome young man to woo a pretty young girl it had determined to take for a wife. But the girl recognised the young man as a kelpie and removed his silver necklace while he slept, his bridle. The kelpie immediately reverted to its equine form, and the girl took it home to her father's farm, where it was put to work for a year. At the end of that time the girl rode the kelpie to consult a wise man, who told her to return the silver necklace. " Just thinking, when referring to a folk tale isn't it referred to in the present tense, "tells of a lonely kelpie that transforms itself"?
    You could well be right. Certainly I'd use the literary present tense when writing a plot summary for a short story, so I guess the same logic applies here. So I've done that. Eric Corbett 22:17, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "after which it is seen to consist of nothing more than "turf and a soft mass like jelly-fish"." Who sees it? Perhaps mention who describes it as such.
    The quotation is published in Lewis Spence's The Magic Arts in Celtic Britain, but not being subject to the same rules as we are here on WP he doesn't say where it came from originally. Eric Corbett 22:17, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sir Walter Scott alludes to a similar explanation in his epic poem The Lady of the Lake (1883)" - clicking Walter Scott I see he died in 1832, is 1883 correct or was it a reprint or what? 1810 seems to be the commonly cited date. You should probably link The Lady of the Lake too.
  • Thanks, well spotted! I've changed it to 1810, the first publication date of the poem and linked to the article. SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Two 30-metre (98 ft) high steel sculptures in Falkirk on the Forth and Clyde Canal, named The Kelpies, borrow the name of the mythical creature to associate with the strength and endurance of the horse; they were built as monuments to Scotland's horse-powered industrial heritage." -I think you should state the sculptor and date of creation here even if not in the lede.
  • I've added a little bit to it covering these and public opening date (for good measure). SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A most fascinating read Eric and SP, thanks for that. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:50, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks for your constructive comments, Dr. Blofeld. I think I've fixed some of the (easier) ones and will let Eric deal with the slightly more complex changes. SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:05, 3 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support Looks good to me.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:00, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to read through the article, and of course for your support. Eric Corbett 22:19, 4 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment It should be "banes", not "bones" in Scots, see here for example. I checked the Walker source you cite and it does indeed have "bones". This is a typo in the source though; it needs to rhyme with "stanes" remember. --John (talk) 09:12, 7 June 2014 (UTC) It looks fine apart from that though. --John (talk) 09:19, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks, John - I replaced the ref to use Chambers as the quote seems to have been slightly tweaked/suffered typos by various authors who have repeated it over the years? SagaciousPhil - Chat 10:32, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support per above tweaks. Nice work. --John (talk) 10:40, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks John. Eric Corbett 13:50, 7 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by FunkMonk edit

I'll read through this soon, but at first glance, the article looks a bit bare. Sure this[2] couldn't be added (perhaps under Artistic representations)? Especially since there are no other horse-like depictions in the article. FunkMonk (talk) 23:08, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Eric and I did have a discussion about this - The Kelpies are actually not the mythical horse and portray the heavy horse; the sculpture design moved away from the original idea but retained the name. We did exhaustive searches (with some much appreciated help from other editors who work with images all the time) but were unable to find any relevant free images except another Draper sketch. SagaciousPhil - Chat 08:55, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, considering how much text is devoted to the statue, adding a photo of it would be in accordance with the manual of style, since it wouldn't only be decorative, but would illustrate a part of the text which is important enough to be mentioned in the lead. But it's your decision. Would make the article look nice, though. FunkMonk (talk) 11:42, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As Sagaciousphil says, she and I have discussed this, and neither of us feel that a representation of the heads of Clydesdale horses is appropriate. I have added a representation of the Pictish Beast though, which we both agreed on. Eric Corbett 12:01, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, I was thinking of that as well. FunkMonk (talk) 12:11, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bäckahästen" does not need a citation in the lead, it is not controversial. FunkMonk (talk) 23:17, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Bäckahästen" is a double definite, it should rather be "the Bäckahäst"... But not sure which grammar counts when mixing languages like this.
Well, he also mentions the name "Bäckahästen" without "the" in front of it once, and that is the other correct way (apart from "the Bäckahäst"). FunkMonk (talk) 11:42, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The instance where he mentions it without "the" before it is: "Traditionally the kappa, like the nix, bäckahästen, and kelpy, are malevolent ..." - if the spirits were transposed to read: "... Traditionally the kelpy, like the bäckahästen, nix, and kappa" the word "the" would probably not be added in front of "nix" either. As the source never uses "bäckahäst" we would be introducing something not included in the reference. SagaciousPhil - Chat 07:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Again, "Bäckahästen" without "the" would work as well. It doesn't introduce anything new, it is just grammatically correct. But I guess no one cares, so up to you. FunkMonk (talk) 12:43, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We're not concerned with Swedish grammar, our concern is with English grammar. Eric Corbett 12:53, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • From the lead: "to be wary of handsome strangers" from the article: "to be wary of attractive young men". There should not be such difference in meaning, the lead is just a summary of the article. FunkMonk (talk) 01:07, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Isn't the Columba story supposed to have happened in the River Ness, rather than Loch Ness itself?
    St Adamnan in his Vita Columbae says that Columba was sailing up the loch when a monster appeared and threatened one of his monks, who was swimming across the mouth of the River Ness to procure a boat to take them to Inverness. He doesn't appear to say whether the monster came from the river or the loch. Later accounts were quite possibly coloured by the distinction between kelpies that live in running water and water horses that live in still water. Eric Corbett 09:33, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • There seem to be quite some inconsistency in tense when characteristics and old stories are recounted. Should be the same.
  • We have been very fortunate to have several of the most experienced, skilled and highly sought after copy editors check through the article already - but I appreciate sometimes the review process may inadvertently introduce errors along the way. Would you like me to prevail upon them to have another look to see if they can identify any outstanding inconsistencies? SagaciousPhil - Chat 07:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Copy editors often miss the tense part. Anyway, some examples:
Present:"The surviving boy is again saved by cutting off his finger, and the additional information is given that he had a Bible in his pocket."
Past:"The spirits had set about constructing a bridge over the Dornoch Firth after becoming tired of travelling across the water in cockleshells. "
Present:"A folk tale from Barra tells of a lonely kelpie that transforms itself into a handsome young man to woo a pretty young girl it was determined to take for its wife."
Past:"One folk tale describes how the Laird of Morphie captured a kelpie in that fashion, and used it to carry stones to build his castle."
Present:"A fable attached to the notoriously nasty creature has the Highlander James MacGrigor taking it by surprise and cutting off its bridle, the source of its power and life and without which it would die within twenty-four hours."
There are several more. A bit puzzling to me, but seems other reviewers have not found it a problem. FunkMonk (talk) 12:43, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps that's because it's only a problem in your estimation? In my estimation the use of tense is perfectly consistent. Eric Corbett 12:50, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Why is the tense different in each example then (inconsistency)? Is there a purpose? FunkMonk (talk) 12:52, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Let's take just one of your examples then, the one about the bridge. The bridge was constructed in the past, before the "grateful onlooker" came across it and tried to bless the kelpies that built it. Mixing past and present tenses in that short narrative would make it look ridiculous. Eric Corbett 13:00, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Alright then, if no one else has brought it up. But you seem to become increasingly agitated, please, I'm not here to sabotage your FAC, so take it easy. FunkMonk (talk) 13:12, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is also inconsistency in whether dates are given for publications in the article. Would be nice with dates for all such mentions.
  • I could only find one instance of this and have added the year to the body text. If there are others we've missed please let us know. SagaciousPhil - Chat 08:55, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Other publications: A Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue, The Kelpies Bridge. FunkMonk (talk) 11:47, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - most of my concerns were addressed, but I must say I quickly grew tired of Eric Corbett's slightly snide remarks here and in edit summaries, so the reason I did not simply withdraw without voting was SagaciousPhil's cooperativeness. FunkMonk (talk) 13:25, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    Nothing like as quickly as I became tired of yours, I'm quite sure. Haven't you got school work to attend to? Eric Corbett 17:54, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
^No wonder we have so few reviewers around these days, and why it takes months for an article to pass. FunkMonk (talk) 17:57, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Jamesx12345 edit

  • The infobox describes it as inhabiting Rivers and Lochs, whereas the intro and the text say lochs and pools.
  • I've amended the info box to include pools as all are mentioned within the article. SagaciousPhil - Chat 17:16, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The kelpie is the most common water spirit..." - ref 5 is used twice in the sentence.
    Not any more it isn't. Eric Corbett 15:02, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "spirits living beside rivers" - beside or in?
  • Both - it just depends on what suits the story being told. SagaciousPhil - Chat 07:54, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the lad" - the use of "lad" is a bit odd to my mind.
  • "woo" - this is quite colloquial.
  • Yes, both are possibly a little colloquial but I don't think their use in this instance is inappropriate as it's recapping a colloquial story. Using 'lad' saves continual repetition of "the child" or "the boy". SagaciousPhil - Chat 07:54, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as in Draper's 1913 oil on canvas" - could it be noted that this is at the top of the page?
  • It is correctly captioned and quite a dominant image at the size used so I don't really think further notation is necessary. SagaciousPhil - Chat 07:54, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Kelpies are extremely recognisable, and it would be good if there was at least one image.
    I don't see why it would be good to include an image of Clydesdale horses in this article. Eric Corbett 15:29, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • As Eric says, we have discussed this (and had help from some very experienced image editors as there are so few free images available) and we felt it was inappropriate to include the pics of the statues. The sculptor and park owners seem to be distancing themselves from the mythical aspect and emphasising that the statues portray the heavy horse industry. Part of a quote from Scott, the sculptor, is "... shifting from any mythological references towards ...". SagaciousPhil - Chat 07:54, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I added a few more images to commons from Flickr, so there is a better selection now. John Duncan's painting becomes PD next year, but in general there aren't many PD artistic depections. Jamesx12345 14:02, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you mean the two images of the statues of the heavy horses at Falkirk that you just uploaded to Commons? The Duncan painting - even when it does become PD - is again a kelpie depicted as a "nymph" and we already have two of those. SagaciousPhil - Chat 14:10, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry - yes - I also came across this, which is ND, but very different to anything on the page, if permission could be got. There are attractively Celtic carvings among the Aberlemno Sculptured Stones - [3] - and these are also quite a bit older than anything else. Jamesx12345 14:38, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for all the effort you're putting into searching for images, Jamesx12345, it is appreciated. Extensive searches have already been done by Eric, myself and another couple of editors (who work with, and source, correctly licensed images all the time), without success. As mentioned, we don't feel it's appropriate to include any pics of The Kelpies at Falkirk as they're depicting the heavy horse, not the mythical creature. The images must be relevant to the article and portrayals of each uisge aren't really applicable either; I only wish we had a talented graphic artist who could do some images for us! I'll let Eric decide if he feels the pictish stone image you found should be considered as a replacement for the Pictish Beast image recently inserted - not in addition to though, or we'll end up with too much emphasis on the Pictish Beast. (Apologies for such a long post!). SagaciousPhil - Chat 15:58, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let's knock this on the head James. There is absolutely no way that an image of a sculpture of the heads of Clydesdale horses will be included in this article. But if you feel that you have found a better representation of the Pictish Beast than the one currently in the article, and it's properly licensed, then simply swap it. Neither SP nor I are married to any particular image. Eric Corbett 17:46, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not pushing for inclusion of the sculpture in Falkirk - it just so happens that it is much easier to find suitable images. The intertwined ones at Ablerlemno are described as being a Pictish Beast, and an image like this gives a much clearer impression than the Martin's Stone in the article. commons:File:Kelpie at Aberlemno poor quality.jpg has been extracted from an image in commons, but isn't any use in an article due to the quality. SagaciousPhil's suggested image (better here) is much more abstract, and could be added to the article without duplicating anything. Jamesx12345 18:10, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The image here isn't of good enough quality to do a straight crop and seems to have striations across it anyway. I will try approaching an editor who I know is really good at extracting and tidying images and see if he can manage to do anything about getting a better cropped version of the bottom right of this instead - if he can then it can be used to replace the present Pictish Beast image under 'Artistic representations'. I can't make any promises as it will be dependent on whether he is able and willing to do anything with it. He isn't likely to be around until the early hours of the morning though; all I can do is ask ... SagaciousPhil - Chat 18:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The image has now been cleaned as much as is possible; James, I have swapped it as you suggested. SagaciousPhil - Chat 03:55, 13 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Despite the clean up that had been done on the image, and after adding it to the article I have looked at it a few times during the day, I felt it still lacked sufficient quality to include. I eventually managed to find a line drawing of a Pictish beast in an 1890 publication, so I have uploaded and cropped that instead. I hope that's acceptable to you, James? SagaciousPhil - Chat 17:48, 13 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's good - the plough marks across the other one detract a lot from the clarity, and the highly cropped photo simply has too few pixels to ever be workable. Hopefully some more quality media will be produced in due course.
  • Thanks for all your help James - as you say, hopefully we will eventually get some more images to enhance the article; it's just unfortunate that is all we have at the moment! SagaciousPhil - Chat 21:46, 14 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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