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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jerome, Arizona/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 20:58, 7 June 2017 [1].

Jerome, Arizona edit

Nominator(s): Finetooth (talk) 18:12, 15 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the boom and bust town of Jerome, Arizona, site of two of the richest copper deposits ever discovered. William A. Clark, one of the Copper Kings of Montana, owned the first, and James Douglas, Jr., a friend of Georges Clemenceau, owned the second. Both men financed mines, railroads, smelters, and company towns (Clarksville and Clemenceau) in or near Jerome. When the mines played out, the workers left, and Jerome's population shrank from about 5,000 in 1930 to about 250 in 1960. Today the town is home to about 450 people who rely mainly on a tourist economy. Finetooth (talk) 18:12, 15 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: in light of this RfC, some additional sourcing will be needed. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:59, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks. That RfC, which I had never seen before, squares with what I think about trivia sections. I have eliminated the "In popular culture" section entirely. Finetooth (talk) 22:54, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another editor has reverted my deletion, and I have written to him here to explain the section deletion and to ask him to reconsider. Finetooth (talk) 17:44, 21 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Getting no reply from the editor who reverted, I reverted the revert. Fingers crossed. Finetooth (talk) 16:16, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Moisejp edit

One comment so far:

  • "In the 21st century, the natural rock features in and around Jerome have been greatly altered by mining." I think this is meant to mean that the state of the rocks in the 21st century is changed compared to an earlier state due to mining in an unspecified period. But it kind of sounds like the mining occurred in the 21st century, while we later learn it actually ended in the 20th century. Could you consider removing this discrepancy for the reader? Thanks! Moisejp (talk) 02:23, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quite right. I reworded to eliminate the confusion. Finetooth (talk) 02:42, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. I've read through the article twice, and that was the only issue I found. I'm very happy to support. Moisejp (talk) 11:41, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Cas Liber edit

Taking a look now....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:09, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As the ore deposits became exhausted.. - sounds a little funny to my ears, I'd say " As the ore deposits were exhausted" or " As the ore deposits ran out"...not a deal-breaker though
660 °F (349 °C), - err, probably wanna make this 350 C as it is rounded.....
After four major fires between 1894 and 1898 destroyed much of the business district and, in 1898, half of the community's homes, Jerome was incorporated as a town in 1899 - this sentence threw me. I realised on the third reading that its grammar was ok, but still might be better rejigged...
Probably better (if possible) not to use Precambrian any more as it is a bit of a broad band of time that has been since subdivided. However, we can't rejig if no source allows us to so this might not be actionable.
  • Interesting catch. I found and added a source for the more narrow band of time, Proterozoic, and inserted it into the Precambrian sentence, I hope not too awkwardly. Finetooth (talk) 19:11, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I recommend melding the several smaller paras in the Government section into fewer larger ones. Also, is there any source that says it is traditionally republican? Be good to add if true or findable, but not a deal-breaker if none exists.
  • Melded to three paras. Added two sentences, with citations, supporting the claim that Yavapai in recent years has generally voted Republican. Finetooth (talk) 20:34, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the pop culture issue. I love pop culture so in my ideal I'd leave it in, but using primary sources only is generally a bit iffy in this situation. Still, it is a minor town so secondary sources are unlikely...anyway, just my 2c. Not a deal-breaker if not in.
  • Still working on this one. I may be able to rescue something from this set. Finetooth (talk) 20:37, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Figured it'd be lean pickings. No biggie. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:11, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

All in all looks pretty good - all these are pretty minor. Nice work Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:40, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for your review and your support. Finetooth (talk) 14:51, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have since managed to rescue one of the items from the former "In popular culture" section, which lives again. Finetooth (talk) 20:14, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Support Comments from edwininlondon edit

Having driven through it once, I can’t resist this one. I enjoyed the article. Just a few comments:

  • of Yavapai County in the State of Arizona -> adding US would probably be better: of Yavapai County in the U.S. state Arizona
  • for various reasons -> Doesn’t add anything, might as well remove
  • base of the hills is the Verde Valley and the communities -> base of the hills are the Verde Valley and the communities
  • to perhaps 660 °F -> I find it a bit odd that perhaps
  • Checked the source, which says "likely exceeding". I changed the wording to "660 °F or more". Finetooth (talk) 18:11, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hickey Formation basalts -> I think this could benefit from a link or explanation: special type of basalts or simply basalts in an area called Hickey Formation?
  • I redlinked Hickey Formation and added a brief explanation. Finetooth (talk) 18:57, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • during first half of the 20th century -> during the first half of the 20th century
  • were filed in 1876 -> by whom?
  • Frederick Augustus Tritle -> would it not be nicer, for consistency, to say Frederick A. Tritle perhaps?
  • a governor -> were there more than one? The governor perhaps?
  • the company ceased operations -> of mining? Smelting? Transporting? Everything?
  • William A. Clark caption-> Add a bit of context for people who are picture scanners. Eg “. Owner of Jerome’s first mine from x to y”
  • bought the United Verde properties -> when?
  • amounted to "some of the richest ever found on Earth". -> Says who? I am not convinced you need to quote here
  • Added the names of the geologists who say so. Changed the direct quote to a paraphrase. Finetooth (talk) 22:39, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rawhide Jimmy -> nicknamed Rawhide Jimmy
  • Clemenceau, a part of Cottonwood -> modern-day or already back in 1918?
  • Added a sentence noting that the company town site was not named Clemenceau until 1920. Finetooth (talk) 19:52, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The labor situation in Jerome was complicated -> Maybe start the paragraph with this sentence. It might flow a bit better I think
  • Nine were arrested -> Nine IWW members I presume
  • Yes, and thought to be leaders. Clarified. Finetooth (talk) 21:48, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • third big mine, Verde Central, closed completely -> probably better if it was introduced in previous section
  • Jimmy Douglas -> he was introduced as James, so should be James here too
  • Thank you. Missed those rascals. Both converted. Finetooth (talk) 22:45, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Edwininlondon (talk) 09:31, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good, Finetooth. Just two more questions:
  • Is there anything reliable about the connection between Eugene Jerome and Winston Churchill?
  • Yes. He was a cousin of Jenny Jerome, Churchill's mother, according to Steuber. I've added a note to that effect. Finetooth (talk) 15:47, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a photo of Eugene Jerome?
  • There is one on page 16 of the Steuber book, which was published in 2008. I have not found any others. Finetooth (talk) 16:05, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Edwininlondon (talk) 13:30, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I just did a source spot check:

  • #17: Clements 2003 - all fine, except for "In addition to banks, hotels, and stores, among the thriving businesses were many associated with alcohol, gambling, and prostitution", which I could not find on pages 45-47.
    Corrected. Steuber says much the same thing on her p. 63, which I've now cited. Finetooth (talk) 17:01, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • #22 ok
  • #30 Clements 2003, pp. 47–49. ok
  • #33 Clements 2003, p. 48. ok
  • #35 Clements 2003, p. 49. Just a bit of clarification needed I think. Source says open-pit operation began in 1919. The article does not quite make that clear, more likely the reader thinks that started in 1915 or possible 1918.
  • #39 Clements 2003, p. 44. ok
  • #42 Clements 2003, p. 51. ok
  • #45 Clements 2003, pp. 54–55. ok
  • #60 ok

Edwininlondon (talk) 14:42, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Edwininlondon: I'm not sure if you have something further to add about citations 39, 42, and 45 or if they are OK. I have a question about something else. Do you think I should get rid of the silly hyperbolic quote about Jerome being the wickedest town in the West? Finetooth (talk) 17:27, 30 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh sorry, I meant to say those source spot checks are ok. I think you should keep the silly hyperbole. All is fine for me now. I support the promotion to FA. Edwininlondon (talk) 10:57, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your thorough review and for your support. Finetooth (talk) 14:05, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment: Unless I've missed them somewhere, I think we still need an image review and a source review for formatting and reliability. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:25, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image review no earlier than tomorrow given the large number thereof. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 22:40, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Image review:
  • The source link worked fine for me just now. I'm not seeing the problem. Finetooth (talk) 20:13, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:United Verde Smelter (Jerome, Arizona).png: Nihil obstat, but I must say that the Library of Congress ought to keep the dates of creation and publication separate, as the latter is more important in terms of copyright.
  • File:High street Jerome, Arizona.jpg: The coordinates seem off to me - from the coordinate locality the San Francisco Peaks would be to the north-northeast, but there are no buildings in that direction from the coordinate locality.
  • Interesting catch. I altered the coordinates to the corner of Main Street and Jerome Avenue, which is where the two buildings actually are. I altered the caption to identify the corner. Finetooth (talk) 20:47, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even though the jpg name says "High Street", I don't think Jerome has a street by that name. The photographer might have been thinking of Hill Street, which is further up the hill from where this photo was taken. Finetooth (talk) 20:51, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Good ALT text. Nihil obstat means that I don't see any licensing or pertinence issues. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:11, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from PaleCloudedWhite edit

Cas Liber suggested I have a look at this as I might submit an article for FAC myself for the first time.

  • I wonder if some sentences might read more naturally if less use was made of the town's name (e.g. the second paragraph of the climate section - seeing as it's already established that the article is talking about Jerome, I would've thought that the first three mentions of "Jerome" could perhaps be dropped? i.e. "Although most precipitation arrives as rain, snow and fog sometimes occur. On average, about 2.5 inches (6.4 cm) of snow falls in January and lesser amounts in February, March, April, November, and December. Even so, the average depth of snow on the ground between 1897 and 2005 was so close to zero that it is reported as zero. Jerome is often windy, especially in spring and fall. Summer thunderstorms can be violent.")
  • Yes, thank you. I've altered the paragraph pretty much as you've suggested, and I look forward to seeing your work here. Finetooth (talk) 23:55, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again looking at the climate section, I'm intrigued by the snowfall data. Three questions. The article states that "On average, about 2.5 inches (6.4 cm) of snow falls in January", but I can't see this in the source - it states over 5 inches. Some of the other months also don't tally. Secondly, do you have any insight as to why no snow lies on the ground, even though nearly 18 inches of snow falls in Jerome every year on average? Is it because the ground is too warm for snow to settle? Thirdly, I can't see anything in the source that supports the specificity of the phrase "the average depth of snow on the ground between 1897 and 2005 was so close to zero that it is reported as zero" - I can only see figures showing a line of zeros, rather than figures very close to zero. Has another source been used, with more detailed data? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:15, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 2.5 inches was a data-entry error, which I've now corrected to 5 inches. Thank you for spotting this. The snow-depth questions involve the difference between instantaneous measurements and averages. If 18 inches of snow falls every year on Jerome, it follows that there must be snow on the ground there at times. The stated claim in the article is not about those moments; it's about monthly averages, which are reported as zero, according to the cited source. The source also supports the claim that the average high temperature in Jerome is no lower than 51F in the coldest month, January, well above freezing. Although it seems logical to assume that snow temporarily accumulates on the ground in Jerome, on average it melts so soon thereafter that it never raises the average monthly accumulation above some number so close to zero that it is simply reported as zero. I have found no other source that says this more directly. I re-checked all the numbers in the table and found a rounding error in one and an annual average data-entry error. I fixed them both. Do you see anything else amiss? Finetooth (talk) 16:26, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have now added a note explaining what to click on to see a temperature table that shows the maximum highs and lows for each month for the period of record. There is no separate URL for this table, and it is not easy to find without guidance. Finetooth (talk) 19:04, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the geology section is the sentence "The United Verde open pit, about 300 feet (91 m) deep, is on the edge of town next to Cleopatra Hill, marked with a large "J""; I read this as saying that the pit is marked with a large J, rather than the hill, and only realised my error when I looked at the panorama image lower down the page. Is the information about the J required here? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:52, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there any info on the J? What it's made from, who made it and why, how big is it, is it maintained? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 07:15, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's maintained by a local service organization known as the J Club. I added mention of the club to the panorama caption. The source does not give the dimensions or say when the J first appeared or what it's made of. It looks like stone to me. Finetooth (talk) 15:14, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • What happened to the built infrastructure when the town's population crashed? Is the town full of deserted buildings? Were lots of buildings dismantled? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 07:15, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some collapsed, as noted in the "After 1920" section of the article. Some were restored, as is suggested by the turn to galleries, restaurants, and tourism. The town isn't full of deserted buildings. Adding more about individual buildings would, I think, introduce unnecessary detail to the article. Finetooth (talk) 15:46, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, what can I say? After further review, I added a note with info about what happened to the housing stock and other buildings. Putting this in a note adds the info without disrupting the flow of the prose in the main text. Finetooth (talk) 19:03, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Steuber says that before the mines opened, Jerome "was covered with pine, oak, and manzanita trees". After the mines opened, the trees were cut for lumber and mine timbers, and fumes and smoke from the smelter killed much of the smaller vegetation. The "After 1920" section of the article mentions the vegetation kill. The trees and bushes in and adjacent to Jerome today do not seem noteworthy, and it's not surprising that the flora here does not resemble the forested wilderness areas at higher elevation west of Jerome. Finetooth (talk) 15:30, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have added a note about the former trees. Finetooth (talk) 17:46, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • To this note, I've added mention of the planting of ailanthus trees on Cleopatra Hill in 1964. Finetooth (talk) 18:26, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does the town now derive all its income from tourism? The end of the history section and the lead state that tourism has become important (the lead does this more explicitly than the main text), but do any other sectors provide employment? Have there ever been any agricultural or forestry activities, or any manufacturing of any kind? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 05:31, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aside from whatever income or savings the local people have, there are no notable economic sectors in Jerome other than tourism. The tourists pay for lodging, food, drink, art, museum entry fees, and selective retail items like belts, hats, T-shirts, books, postcards, boots. No timber cutting. No manufacturing. No supermarket. No gas station. Finetooth (talk) 15:22, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be great if the article could have an economy section - it would allow insertion of data that wouldn't fit anywhere else. I'm used to writing about UK settlements, and the UK Geography WikiProject has a sort of template for how to assemble info in articles, which I usually find helpful (though I don't agree with everything it says). I had a very brief look online and found this source which has some interesting facts - such as the recent(ish) size of the labour force and unemployment rates, major public employers, the number of rooms available, the nearest airport (also suitable for a transport section), etc. Would you not consider this sort of information worthy of incorporation into the article? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 17:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've added mention of the nearest airport to the "Geography" section, but I think the other information would be too much. Finetooth (talk) 20:15, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This source has similar info to the other one I found, though in addition it has a breakdown of employment sectors in the town, which reveals that perhaps only a little more than half of Jerome's labour force are employed in work directly catering to tourists. There are even a few people employed in manufacturing - does that mean there are commuters living here? I'm sure a brief economy section could quickly be assembled, to give readers a more detailed idea of how Jerome functions and earns its living today. The article is strong on historical aspects but is less strong I think on the present day - there's also no sections on culture or media (the community profile I linked to refers to a "Paso De Casas (home tour)" that occurs every May, a "3-day reunion for former mining families" in October, and a "Festival of Lights" in December, and this source mentions a thrice-weekly newspaper, plus gives info on local TV and radio). PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 07:25, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you. I take your point, but I think that adding small sections of trivial information would make the article worse rather than better. I'm willing to consider adding specific bits of info where a strong case can be made for inclusion. I see only negative value in listing the number of available hotel rooms or listing remote employers such as the Safeway store in Cottonwood or listing the TV channels and radio stations it is possible to receive in Jerome. I don't see these matters as worthy of incorporation. Finetooth (talk) 15:04, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that the size of the labour force, unemployment rates, how employment breaks down per sector etc. can be considered trivial information, and, considering that Jerome's economy is dominated by tourism, facts such as the number of rooms available can, in absence of other information, give an indication of that importance. Look at Bath, Somerset, which is a touristy town and an FA: it has an economy section which includes the lines, "The size of the tourist industry is reflected in the almost 300 places of accommodation – including more than 80 hotels, two of which have 'five-star' ratings, over 180 bed and breakfasts – many of which are located in Georgian buildings, and two campsites located on the western edge of the city." If you look further down at the media section, it gives information on the local newspaper ("Bath's local newspaper is the Bath Chronicle, owned by Local World") and lists four local radio stations, including one for a student campus. Jerome is much smaller than Bath, meaning the stats are going to be smaller, but that doesn't necessarily make all such stats trivial. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 16:13, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Bath article looks excellent, but city and small-town articles do not need to follow a cookie-cutter formula. Finetooth (talk) 19:02, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Below is an example of the sort of addition I have had in mind. It could be expanded. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:32, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Economy and society (example) edit

Jerome's economy is focused on recreation and tourism. Figures published in 2015 showed that more than 50% of the labor force worked in arts, entertainment, retail, food and recreation services, while manufacturing and construction employed just over 10%.[1] Between 1990 and 2006 the value of taxable sales increased from $4.8 million to $15.5 million,[2] and between 1990 and 2014 the unemployment rate fell from 4.2% to 1.4%.[1] Buildings on the Main Street that previously were vacant now house boutiques, gift shops, antique and craft shops;[2] the town also has five art galleries, an archive research center, a library, three parks and two museums, including the Mine Museum run by the Jerome Historical Society.[1] Annual events in the town include a home tour ("Paso De Casas") in May, a reunion for former mining families in October, and a Festival of Lights in December.[2]

  • Added with minor modifications. Thank you. That was very kind of you to lay it out so directly. I was getting a bit lost in the plethora of possibilities. Finetooth (talk) 15:06, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's great! I hope it hasn't felt like I was trying to wear you down through a process of attrition - the truth is that I find Jerome a fascinating little place and, if it weren't halfway round the world from me, would probably visit it as a result of reading the article. As visiting isn't an immediate option, I wanted to get a clearer picture of what it's like today; obviously there was already info in the article about this, as well as the images (the panorama picture that you took really catches the imagination), but I wanted to know a little more. Do you think there is a way to insert info about the 'sliding jail' that I have read about elsewhere? Is it the same 'lost' jail that the history section refers to? It sounds fascinating. Anyway I shall add my support for FA status. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 16:18, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for the kind words and support. I will add something about the jail, and if I can find another source that supports the claim that Jerome has a working newspaper, I will add that too. I've encountered no other mention of a contemporary Jerome newspaper, and I think the first source might be referencing a Chamber of Commerce newsletter or something of the sort. If you ever get to Jerome, you will probably find the whole region fascinating. For my own part, I would enjoy a visit to Bath. Finetooth (talk) 18:49, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment: I might have missed it, but I didn't see a review for source reliability; however, I looked myself and we look fine on that front. I must compliment both the nominator and reviewers on this FAC as there has been healthy back-and-forth and compromise on both sides. Something of a model of how to do it, I must say. Any further issues or additions can be discussed on the talk page after promotion. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:58, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ a b c "Community Profile for Jerome". Arizona Commerce Authority. Retrieved 6 June 2017.
  2. ^ a b c "Jerome". Arizona Department of Commerce. Retrieved 6 June 2017.
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