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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of Burnley F.C./archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 8 September 2021 [1].

History of Burnley F.C. edit

Nominator(s): WA8MTWAYC (talk) 07:51, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the history of English football team Burnley F.C., who have seen the absolute highs and lows. I've created this article a year ago and it has passed the GA process. All comments will be appreciated. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 07:51, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

Support from TRM edit

Lead

  • "of rugby team" which rugby?
    • All sources practically say "rugby football" or simply "rugby" (apparently the current union and league variants only came into existence long after 1882). WA8MTWAYC (talk) 14:57, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link professional.
  • I may have asked this before, but did going professional really "As a result, the club was able to enter the FA Cup"?
  • "League; they were" just "and" instead of the semi-colon and they.
  • " a then English record" awkward, perhaps, "setting an English record".
  • "top tier of English football" could link to English football league system.
  • "with 80,000 inhabitants, the town of Burnley became the smallest to have an English first tier champion" wasn't that the case back in 1920/21 then?
  • "non-league" should be "non-League".

Early years (1882–1912)

  • "A large majority voted in favour of the proposed change of sport" third time you've said change of sport/code in as many sentences. Maybe just "favour of the proposal".
  • "The club secretary George..." long sentence, suggest split. And no need to link general English term committee.
  • "arrivals with association football experience" any detail on where they arrived from? Was it a "Lancashire-only" thing or wider?
    • No exact information about their previous clubs/careers is given. It's very likely that they were local lads, as the directors advertised their trial matches only in the local newspaper. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 14:57, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The team played the" which team?
  • "blue and white" hyphenate.
  • I assume the "first recorded match" was a friendly?
    • Kind of; it was a trial match. Added the wikilink. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 14:57, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "February but lost 6–3 against" -> "February, losing 6–3 against"
  • "outright—defeating Burnley Ramblers in the final by a scoreline of 2–1[2]—and their reserve" I would split this. "outright, defeating Burnley Ramblers in the final by a scoreline of 2–1. Burnley's reserve..."
  • "many Scottish players" easter egg, if they were truly Scottish internationals then say that rather than just imply they were Scottish nationals.
  • "regarded as the best footballers" by whom?
  • "the BFA redundant" so it subsequently ceased to exist?
  • "a club record defeat." at the time or ever?
  • "world's first league competition" in any sport?
  • "12 founder members and one of the six" twelve for MOS (comparable figures).
  • "was re-elected" this probably needs explanation as to why a club who finished ninth needed "re-election".
  • " scored a hat-trick but was never called up again" what was the match result?
  • "history after they defeated" when, not after.
  • "Burnley decided to follow other" -> Burnley followed other
  • "two of 30" thirty.
  • Could link goalkeeper.
  • "resulted in Hillman's suspension" his
  • "Alarming performances" in what sense? According to whom?

Starter for you. More to come. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 12:59, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Glory and decline (1912–1946)

  • I'm not mad keen on the editorial headings (e.g. "Glory and decline")...
  • "became the first ... became the first" repetitive.
  • We have an article on Association football during World War I which might be linkable?
  • "30 match" hyphenate.
  • "Team photograph..." that's a fragment so no full stop.
  • "front of over 50,000 supporters. The attendance was later confirmed as 54,775, still" -> "front of 54,775 supporters, still"
  • "only 19th the next season," don't need 19th in the pipe.
  • "In 1929–30, " or "In".
  • "on goal average." loathe as I am to suggest this, I think this needs a footnote explanation.
  • "The side's form remained" Burnley's...
  • "started to slightly improve again" remove "again".
  • "uninspiring" this is POV.
  • "him the Football League's youngest ever centre-forward. " still? If not, who beat him? Jason Dozzell??!

Progressive and golden era (1946–1976)

  • "war league football" shouldn't that be League?
  • "the "Iron Curtain"; the team conceded" -> "the "Iron Curtain", conceding"
  • "capable of competing" speculative.
  • "were particularly based " why "particularly"?
    • Most of Burnley's scouts were located there. I think the club had less competition scouting for talent in those areas. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 19:27, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "out by Chelsea after four replays" is that some kind of record?!
    • Strangely enough it isn't! [2]
  • "scored a record four goals " which record?
    • I think it might be the English record, and maybe, maybe even a (tied) world record (playing your first ever senior match and scoring four in a competitive match - just wow). Clarified it by adding "club". WA8MTWAYC (talk) 19:27, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "despite missing a" who?
  • "£8,000 in 1950, while Elder cost the club £5,000 " I think previously you've inflated all of these kinds of figures.
  • Total Football appears to be capitalised.
  • "town of Burnley became the smallest to have an English first-tier champion" see earlier comment.
  • "the first modern international American football tournament" two things (a) don't like "American football" being in there and (b) what happened?
    • I hope "American soccer" will do the trick. Added info. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 19:27, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "played in European competition for the first time" you should say why, our readers may not make the link between winning an FA Cup and qualifying for Europe.
  • "and shared the FA Charity Shield" it's odd for me to read this one last when (traditionally) it's played before the other competitions you've mentioned have even started. And because "sharing" a cup is so unusual, I'd footnote that.
  • "newcomers Ipswich Town" well that needs context, they were newly promoted as opposed to "newcomers" I think.
  • "the club's Willie Irvine as the league's" feels like it's missing an "ending" or "finishing" or something.
  • "Burnley reached the quarter-finals of the 1966–67 Inter-Cities Fairs" how did they qualify for that cup?
  • "and the League Cup semi-final in 1968–69." this feels awkwardly tagged on, I would make it another sentence and perhaps mention who knocked them out?
  • "Adamson in February 1970. Adamson hailed" repetitive.
  • "had often been in the top half of the league table" is that verifiable from the reference? Or do you mean "had often finished in the top half"?
    • It should be verifiable from the ref (16; Rundle) as it lists the finishing position and the amount of teams that participated per season. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 19:27, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were invited to play" this is a rarity so probably needs a footnote as to why it wasn't the traditional teams involved.

The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 16:53, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Decline and near oblivion (1976–1987)

  • "Three nondescript seasons" POV.
  • "In 42 league games, Burnley won none of the first 16 or the last 16 matches." Feels a bit factoid.
  • "relegation zone … the relegation zone" repetitive.
  • "Graph showing Burnley’s…" fragment, no full stop.
  • "League Cup semi-final" singular? I think all other mentions of "-final" have been plural.
  • "young talents" POV
  • "finished 21st in each" probably needs context, i.e. how many clubs, was that deep relegation or just the last place to get demoted?
  • "only 12 times in 46 league" -> "only 12 of 46 league…"
*"into the season's last match" league match.
  • " 15,000[k] " the footnote is useful but in the prose the notability of the fact isn’t even noted.
  • "Burnley had a new local rival team in Colne Dynamoes, who…" this is kind of introduced without a context, timeframe?

Recovery (1987–2009)

  • First sentence says "In 1988, …" compare that to the section heading…
  • "Burnley became champions the" reads a little odd, like it was passive, maybe "Burnley won the league" or something.
  • "in the final" you should link the final here, not later.
  • "followed after one season,[16] but the club" it says "but", is that what you mean? The relegation and the grant weren’t connected.
    • Reworded; Burnley qualified for the grant because they were in the second tier, relegation had little to do with it. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 21:25, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "make further progress" relatively meaningless.
  • "for a promotion play-off place during" I think you’ve already linked play-offs.
  • "immediately became serious contenders" that’s not in the FCHD ref.
  • "play-off place by one goal" how? On goals scored after finishing level on points and goal difference? Needs clarification.
  • "close to administration again" you link that term here, but you say "again", so it should be made clear in the previous discussion on this that the "administration" was the same thing.
*"on-field form had also declined despite" that is not referenced in FCHD.
  • "Chairman Barry Kilby owned 51 per cent of the company's shares." And?
  • "Another run of poor results… " the following season?
  • "The 2008–09 season, Coyle's first full season " season/season repetitive.
  • "The side led 3–0 at home" -> "Burnley led…."


Premier League football and back in Europe (2009–present)

  • "against defending champions" could link previous season’s PL.
  • "Coyle was replaced…" He was replaced.
  • "ed with Brian Laws" maybe "former player Brian Laws" since you’re not linking him and the context has gone missing.
  • "replaced with Eddie" replaced by.
  • "for personal reasons" should probably be in quotes. Wikipedia isn’t saying that.
  • "tipped as relegation candidates" by whom?
  • "Burnley's top goal scorer" you mean from the previous season?
  • "The new signing " more detail, and probably "Their new signing…"
*"and were ensured to play" guaranteed.
  • "that season's FA Cup competition" no need for "competition".
  • "winning more points away than at home" that is interesting but it needs context for it to be here, I know it was reported that they were better travellers but something footnote here.
    • Reworded it a bit, should hopefully be enough. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 07:32, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "five points away from the European places" five points below the European qualification places.
  • "by persons other " persons? Anyone?
  • Where did Burnley finish at the end of the 2021 season?
    • I don't think it adds much value to include. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 07:32, 29 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm confused as to why their most recent league finish isn't included? It's probably the most relevant fact to most readers! The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 21:40, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Added. Hopefully the sentence can be replaced by a more positive league finish this season... WA8MTWAYC (talk) 06:42, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just references to go on the first pass. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 20:21, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Refs

  • Ref 9 ISBN inconsistently formatted s those in the General refs.
  • Check other ISBNs.
  • RSSSF is a website.
  • What makes "English Football League Tables" a reliable and high quality source?
  • Ref 83. Which "The Herald"?
  • BBC Sport is not italicised in our world.
  • Ref 133. Which "The Telegraph" is it, The Daily Telegraph?

The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 20:22, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man Thank you very much for this review, I appreciate it. I've addressed your comments. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 07:44, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. I'm happy to support the nomination now, good work. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 09:48, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Z1720 edit

Non-expert prose review.

  • "who decided to leave the rugby code" What is a rugby code? Is that the name of the league they were participating in? Perhaps a different word can be used here, or this can be wikilinked.
    • With rugby code I meant the sport itself; I've reworded it a bit.
  • "one of the twelve founder members" founding members?
    • Founder members is British English.
  • "That same year saw the team win their first trophy." Move this to the end of the info about the Dr Dean Trophy, as I was confused when it was placed at the beginning.
    • Done
  • " Burnley director and Football League management committee member Charles Sutcliffe had already proposed the discontinuation of test matches." I'm not sure why this is important for the article and perhaps can be deleted.
    • Deleted
  • "the side finished in last place in 1902–03 but were re-elected." What does re-elected mean?
    • Added a footnote.
  • "whose father travelled from Australia to see him play in the final," Why is this important for the reader to know? Since the article is already quite long, I think this can be deleted.
    • Removed
  • "Jonathan Brown, William Pickering" I assume these are players, but this should be specified in the article.
    • Done
  • "while Teddy Hodgson died after he contracted a kidney problem." Was this in relation to the war? If not, it can be delete.
    • This was in relation to the war.
  • "while Page played in attack" What does played in attack mean?
    • As a forward/striker; reworded
  • "A tied club record 9–0 victory over New Brighton in the next round followed despite Doug Winton missing a penalty." -> In the next round, the club tied their record for largest victory with a score of 9–0 over New Brighton." I don't think this information about missing a penalty is needed.
    • Reworded; deleted the penalty part
  • "—only McIlroy and Alex Elder had cost a transfer fee. Both players were bought from Northern Irish club Glentoran; McIlroy transferred to Burnley for £8,000 (the equivalent of £276,000 as of 2021[b]) in 1950, while Elder cost the club £5,000 (the equivalent of £117,000 as of 2021[b]) in January 1959. -> "Only two players, McIlroy and Alex Elder, cost a transfer fee, with both players bought from Northern Irish club Glentoran for £8,000 (the equivalent of £276,000 as of 2021[b]) in 1950 and £5,000 (the equivalent of £117,000 as of 2021[b]) in January 1959, respectively." Since this section is long, I want to reduce the number of words wherever I can.
    • That's alright; done
  • "Although the team faced strong opponents, the players found it hard to take the tournament seriously. The stadium announcer often misinterpreted the referee's decisions, the crowd showed little interest in the games, and every match would end with a countdown "worthy of a space-rocket launching"." I'm not sure this information belongs in this article, as it is more about the tournament than the team. Since this article is already quite large, I recommend deleting it.
    • Done
  • "Although Burnley were far from a two-man team," I don't think this is necessary and can be deleted.
    • Done
  • " The impact of the abolition of the maximum wage in 1961, which meant clubs from small towns like Burnley could no longer compete financially with sides from bigger towns and cities, was more damaging." This sentence should be placed before the previous sentence as it happened chronologically first.
    • Done
  • "fans criticised Bond for signing expensive players, increasing Burnley's debt, and for selling Lee Dixon, Brian Laws and Trevor Steven." -> fans criticised Bond for increasing Burnley's debt by signing expensive players, and for selling Lee Dixon, Brian Laws and Trevor Steven.
    • Done
  • "For the upcoming 1986–87 campaign," Delete upcoming as redundant wording
    • Done
  • " they needed a win against Orient, and for Lincoln City to lose and for Torquay United to not win." -> they needed to win against Orient, for Lincoln City to lose their match, and Torquay United to not win theirs."
    • Done
  • "In front of approximately 35,000 Burnley supporters and a total attendance of 44,806," Why are the attendance numbers important for this match? I think this can be deleted.
    • Deleted (although it's still kinda special to outnumber your rivals by such numbers).
  • Per MOS:REFERENCES, "Usually, if the sections are separated, then explanatory footnotes are listed first, short citations or other footnoted citations are next, and any full citations or general references are listed last." Unless there is a reason for general references to be listed first, they should probably be moved to after the specific references.
    • Done
  • Per WP:CITEVAR, citation styles should be consistent. If Quelch and Simpson are book sources and are going to be listed in General references, then the other books used in the references section (Butler, Inglis, and Thomas) should have the same citation style and be listed in General.
    • The books listed in the general section were used multiple times (multiple refs). Books listed in the specific section are only used once (one ref). Do you think I should include all used books in the general section?
  • What is Clarets Mad? If it is a fansite, it might fall under WP:ELNO #11 and should be removed.
    • Removed

Those are my thoughts. Please ping after the above have been responded to. Z1720 (talk) 19:33, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Z1720 Thank you very much for your time and review, it's appreciated! I've addressed your points and left some comments. Thanks, WA8MTWAYC (talk) 22:18, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My concerns have been addressed, I support. Z1720 (talk) 16:51, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Edwininlondon edit

I saw a request for a source review for this. Happy yo do that, but I'll start with some minor comments on the article itself:

  • to abandon its rugby roots --> I find this a bit too poetic
    • Reworded
  • changed code to football --> changed to football?
    • Done
  • continuously occupied the same ground for longer --> is this England wide or worldwide?
    • It's worldwide; added
  • a donation of £65 --> does this mean that the cricket club owns Burneley's home ground? Still?
    • No, Turf Moor is owned by Burnley. I don't know when the stadium (or rather the land) really became in the hands of the club, however.
  • after which the gates started to slightly improve --> not sure about this expression. I'm sure it's correct but is it right for readers here?
    • I've switched "gates" and "attendances" in the sentence, so it'll hopefully be clear what gates alludes to.
  • implemented a Total Football playing style --> it wasn't called that yet, so perhaps "a playing style which later became known as Total Football"
    • Done
  • The caption "Wade Elliott's goal earned Burnley a 1–0 victory over Sheffield United in the Championship play-off Final," has a capital F, but in the body text it is a small f
    • Great find; amended
  • Note d and e are the same. Is it possible to merge them?
    • Note d and e are identical, but in 1888-89 (note d) there were four teams in the "relegation/re-election zone", while there were three in 1902-03 (note e). Both notes also use different refs. So if it's okay with you, I'm keeping the notes apart.
      • OK

I hope to be able to do a spot check later today. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:30, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Edwininlondon Thanks very much for your time and review, I appreciate it. I've addressed your points and left some comments. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 11:33, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Spotcheck: #65 88 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 all ok.

I see The Rambling Man has already been so kind to look at the references' formatting and source reliability. I trust his judgment. I also note that WA8MTWAYC already has quite a few successful FACs, so I think my spotcheck suffices. I Support. Edwininlondon (talk) 20:34, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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