Wikipedia:Education noticeboard/Archive 5

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I just saw Wikipedia:Education program/Ambassadors/Become a Campus Ambassador

I see I've been listed to recieve notifcations over at Wikipedia:Education program/Ambassadors/Become a Campus Ambassador, but I've seen none. Can we do those here? Biosthmors (talk) 09:15, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I thought notifications were supposed to be wiki-wide and not just applied on specific pages, no? OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 03:39, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what's going on, but we have another applicant at Wikipedia:Education program/Ambassadors/Become a Campus Ambassador and no discussion on any application for months! And the notification didn't work again. A notification to User:OhanaUnited, User:Neelix, User:Ktr101, User:Pharos, User:Pongr, User:Sleuthwood, User:Etlib, User:Daniel Simanek, User:Biosthmors, User:Kayz911, User:DStrassmann, User:Rjensen, User:Bluerasberry, User:Kevin Gorman, and User:JMathewson (WMF) that this is a problem. User:Sage Ross (WMF) mentioned a while ago in the archives moving these applications to this noticeboard, if I remember correctly. That was a wise suggestion. Can we do that? My apologies to User:czar, User:Kolekar Pandurang, and User:Codeie. Biosthmors (talk) 09:04, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I did try to start that discussion, though the Regional Ambassadors came to the consensus at the time that they'd like to speak with potential Ambassadors, as they do now. I still think the process could be here on-wiki, but I believe somebody's point was that there are different qualifications for OAs and CAs. I would love this to be a discussion the RAs are a part of. User:Biosthmors, do you want to send out over the RA listserv to see if everyone would be interested in coming to an agreed process here on WP:ENB? JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 18:03, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I might have to plumb the archives. I think I saw that conversation, had things to add, but then didn't participate. I just went ahead and changed the status quo as you can see below. I think it's definitely an improvement! I think speaking with the applicants is a good step, still, and I spoke with one last night. As for the list-serve, it seems potentially counter-productive (by introducing sampling bias) unless other ambassadors and other Wikipedians are also notified to participate. I think we might already have a slightly biased sample given that the notifications I tagged for this discussion thread initially was largely targeted to the regional ambassadors. Biosthmors (talk) 08:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Well on second thought I'll still email them anyways, despite the concern. Biosthmors (talk) 08:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Although I definitely would like to speak to any potential ambassadors in my region, I'm not even really too sure we can meaningfully say no to a potential ambassador from a practical standpoint. We can discourage them from trying to participate, but from what I've seen so far, people we would be likely to deny would also be likely to just ignore getting told not to participate. We could deny them access to advice, but that would be counterproductive. We could stop them from using the course page interface, but again, I think that would be counterproductive. We can't really tell them 'no, you can't go do realworld outreach on your own.' We can't even really tell them that they can't call themselves ambassadors. I guess in instances where we have relationships with professors, we could advise professors that letting particular people help their classes out might do more harm than good, but I think that's about the strongest thing we can do. Although I generally like doing as many things on wiki, I'm a little bit iffy about making any formalized on-wiki process for vetting potential ambassadors, since I think such processes (see WP:RFA) tend to end up becoming way more pain than they are worth. Kevin Gorman (talk) 20:15, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, I have no idea why that notification hack is working on this page but not on the other.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 15:14, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I've fixed it now; the empty Discussion subsection was preventing notifications from going through. Thanks for flagging this, User:Biosthmors.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 15:30, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

(Re Kevin Gorman's comment) We did have a professor in Canada who is no longer participating in the program telling other interested professors that he has this female student as a campus ambassador even though she's not. She has never applied let alone being accepted and signed off as a CA. I highly doubt that she knows the prof hung her out to dry but it's definitely not in good faith for the prof to be masquerading and claim her to be a campus ambassador. Without hearing it straight from his mouth, I wouldn't have believed it. As for the application process, I'm glad that up to this point it hasn't descended to the level of turning it into a vote (let's hope that it'll be kept this way). OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 03:20, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Just out of curiousity, but was it out of malice or ignorance? I can picture someone in a class going 'oh, I know a lot about Wikipedia, I can totally help out with this assignment,' and then the professor reading some about the EP and going 'oh, I have a helper, I guess I should call her an ambassador.' Either way, unfortunate situation. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:10, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Definitely not ignorance because the prof participated in EP and had CA before so he knew how things work. And no, she was a complete green hand (0 edits) prior to the course last year (which was not one of the courses affiliated with the education program). Then the prof picked her because she's enthusiastic. And to fuel your curiosity, he is the "he who must not be named" psychology prof from Toronto. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 21:42, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I'd say what my reaction to that information is, but I'd have to resort to some incivil language. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:45, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and copied and pasted the applications below. And I've made it so that they automatically appear here at the noticeboard instead of at Wikipedia:Education program/Ambassadors/Become a Campus Ambassador

@Kevin Gorman, I understand what you're saying, to a degree. This is the encyclopedia anyone can edit. But I think the point is this: who do we want to recognize officially to interact in the off-wiki (even if that's just email, but also on the phone, Skype, and in person) with professors and students and say they have at least a modicum of community support? I think it's all about making sure someone is serious and knowledgeable before "officially" listing them as an ambassador. I'm not saying I agree with the entire structure of the user right/extension combination. But I don't see any wisdom in handing out the user right and privilege to list oneself as an Ambassador to anyone. And I don't understand why you said I'm a little bit iffy about making any formalized on-wiki process for vetting potential ambassadors, because we've had it that way for a long time. I corresponded with both Rosechiango (talk · contribs) and Dward2612 (talk · contribs), but they didn't follow up with me, so I never granted them the user right. Others have been responsive, so I've assigned rights: Special:UserRights/Drdemartino. Biosthmors (talk) 08:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Campus Ambassador application: czar

czar (talk · contribs)

Why do you want to be a Wikipedia Ambassador?
I want to list myself as a public resource for teachers, which I hope will further encourage more to incorporate WP into their curricula. As an educationist, I consider WP an integral part of future literacy and civics, especially in that all American students (if not all Internet-connected Americans) will use it this year and yet none will be familiar with how to read it. Moreover, Madison is one of the bigger ed schools in the country, so it's exceptionally pertinent/important in my field to familiarize future teachers with a tool/skill set they should be imparting to their own. To the point, I also like working with other editors and students, copyediting, and having a little extra leverage when proposing such ideas to professors. I'd like to be more useful in the education outreach corner of Wikipedia.
Where are you based, and which educational institution(s) do you plan to work with as a Campus Ambassador?
University of Wisconsin–Madison (Hi Dan)
What is your academic and/or professional background?
B.A. Yale, current Ph.D. student at UW–Madison in ed policy and curriculum/instruction
In three sentences or less, summarize your prior experience with Wikimedia projects.
I'm familiar with all the projects. I was a rabid IP editor in high school, was bit hard, forgot my username for a while, and have been more involved the last few months—quite intensely so.
What else should we know about you that is relevant to being a Wikipedia Ambassador?
I'm first for this new application format, eh?

@OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --czar · · 08:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Well this one seems to be a no-brainer (experience with Wikipedia and studying in the area of education). Thanks for your interest User:Czar. I think the standard for now is that a regional ambassador http://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Regional_Ambassadors/Current talks with you over Skype and then assigns you the right. I could do that, but if I did I might step on the toes of User:Daniel Simanek. Ah. Now I get the hi Dan portion. =) I could just be bold and assume Dan doesn't mind if I assign you the course volunteer right, but I'll wait because I assume he received a mailing list email I sent. Ping me if this doesn't get dealt with in the next few days. Do you have any questions? Best. Biosthmors (talk) 10:40, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: No questions. I'm going to follow up with the Rishi Valley teacher above and see how I can be useful. czar · · 15:59, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Great User:Czar, thanks. Any luck? I just emailed them to let them know I replied at the bottom of their original posting. Best. Biosthmors (talk) 20:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: Haven't heard back yet, so I left a note on her talk page. Haven't heard from Dan either. czar · · 10:28, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: Looks like they're already working with another editor, but I will follow-up, offer myself where it interests them, and watch the page to keep edits constructive. Also, haven't heard from Dan about volunteer rights (ping ping). czar ♔ 02:27, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

@Czar:. Thanks for checking! This program isn't quite optimal yet, in my opinion, and as you can see below where Lukas applied, there is some resistance to giving someone "campus" rights unless they have a classroom. Don't let this hinder you from working with as many professors/students as possible, though. Functionally I have 0 clue whether there's any real difference between the online volunteer or campus volunteer right. Anyhow, you've been assigned the online volunteer right. You can sign up on course pages in the extension. Such a pity it's taken this long! Thank you so much for following up!!! =) Let me know if you'd like to chat sometime about the education program on Skype. Biosthmors (talk) 10:07, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not going to recommend giving you the rights, as Campus Ambassadors need to be at the school, not half a world away. Your online rights are good enough, so I don't see why you would need anything more than this at this time. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 02:17, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

@Ktr101: My application says that I'm in Madison, WI and not half a world away, so I'm not sure why you'd say that. czar ♔ 15:56, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

You did say that you wanted to work in India, so I am confused as to why you would need that right to do this. If you do have a class in mind in Wisconsin, I would have no problem giving you the right, although I would like to see a demonstrated need for it first, as that is usually the way rights are given on this site. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 16:57, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

I applied well before the Rishi Valley opportunity (which doesn't appear to be going through the education program or using the course instructor rights anyway), and I didn't read any restrictions in the literature ([1], [2]) on having a course queued up before applying for rights, which would seem to put the cart before the horse given the expectations here. czar ♔ 14:31, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Not true, I did turn away people who applied for campus ambassador when there's no course from that campus. For example, I received an application from spring in another province where we had not expanded to yet at that point. Even though the applicant is very well qualified, I told him that that I kept his information on file and would accept him when a professor from his campus joins the program. This fall, a prof did sign up from his campus and I hooked them up. He is now serving as the campus ambassador for that particular university. To my main point, we do not want to expand too quickly so that the infrastructure and support cannot all the students (think Dot-com bubble) or idling ambassadors for campuses which we don't have a course. So I'm curious why Biosthmors granted you rights for campus ambassador when you expressed your wills to help with the India program (which is obviously an online ambassador toolset). I think this is why Kevin Rutherford was confused. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 20:36, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

User:OhanaUnited, it was for online and not campus ambassadorship. User:Czar you can set up an ambassador profile now by the way. See there for some details! Biosthmors (talk) 21:42, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks czar ♔ 23:12, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Campus Ambassador application: Kolekar Pandurang

Kolekar Pandurang (talk · contribs)

Why do you want to be a Wikipedia Ambassador?
I have been always keen to learn the new things and share the benefits with the community. I think Wikipedia Ambassador is a great opportunity for the individuals like me to fulfill that urge. Being a teacher, I love to interact and share the topic specific resources with my student. This program will help me to reach the wider audience and help them to do the same through Wikipedia. I will feel it as a great social contribution to enhance the outreach capabilities of person to learn, share and grow together.
Where are you based, and which educational institution(s) do you plan to work with as a Campus Ambassador?
University of Pune, Pune (INDIA)
What is your academic and/or professional background?
Bachelor of Biotechnology, Master of Bioinformatics, currently pursuing Ph.D. in Bioinformatics.
In three sentences or less, summarize your prior experience with Wikimedia projects.
I have explored and benefited from many Wikimedia projects. I find them great resources of knowledge and information.
What else should we know about you that is relevant to being a Wikipedia Ambassador?
I have been part of great academic and scientific networks that will help me to promote the goals of this program.

@OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --Kolekar Pandurang (talk) 13:35, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Hello Kolekar Pandurang! Thanks for posting here. I'd love to see you make some more edits to Wikipedia so we know you know how things work here. That way you can more effectively be an ambassador for Wikipedia to your region. Please post here, the WP:Teahouse, or my user talk page if you need any help. Best. Biosthmors (talk) 09:57, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Campus Ambassador application: codeie

codeie (talk · contribs)

Why do you want to be a Wikipedia Ambassador?
hi!! I would as a Wikipedia ambassador promote its use in my college to share assignments ,projects info etc.Besides would try

conducting workshops and improve its interface among my peers.

Where are you based, and which educational institution(s) do you plan to work with as a Campus Ambassador?
I'am a 3rd year engineering student studying in M.S Ramaiah Institute of Technology(BANGALORE).I would be a campus ambassador in my college.
What is your academic and/or professional background?
Course- Information science .Bachelor of engineering degree. grade points = 9.44(until 2nd year)
In three sentences or less, summarize your prior experience with Wikimedia projects.
I find all the Wikimedia project are interesting and prove necessary for our everyday learning experience.
What else should we know about you that is relevant to being a Wikipedia Ambassador?
I have been a part of various tech events at my college.I have also participated in various IEEE workshops.

>stood 3rd in inter school Maggie quiz etc. @OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --Codeie (talk) 11:03, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Hello Codeie! Thanks for posting here. I'd love to see you make some more edits to Wikipedia so we know you know how things work here. That way you can more effectively be an ambassador for Wikipedia to your region. Please post here, the WP:Teahouse, or my user talk page if you need any help. Best. Biosthmors (talk) 09:56, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Campus Ambassador application: Lukasaolson

lukasaolson (talk · contribs)

Why do you want to be a Wikipedia Ambassador?
There are many reasons I want to be an Ambassador. Chiefly, I would like to facilitate the development of a substantial Wikipedia Education Program presence at Emory University. I will be working with a faculty advisor for a year to accomplish this. I am passionate about encouraging students to participate in improving Wikipedia because I want school assignments to be meaningful and actually impact the real world. I sincerely appreciate the impact Wikipedia has had on my education, and I would like to proliferate that influence.
Where are you based, and which educational institution(s) do you plan to work with as a Campus Ambassador?
I live and attend school in Atlanta. I will be working primarily with Emory University, with hopes of influencing Georgia Tech, Georgia State, and other local schools.
What is your academic and/or professional background?
I am a sophomore at Emory University, double majoring in political science and economics.
In three sentences or less, summarize your prior experience with Wikimedia projects.
I have reaped many benefits from the content of Wikipedia projects, spent a good amount of time reading about how Wikipedia works and how it can be improved, and have developed several plans to improve its functionality.
What else should we know about you that is relevant to being a Wikipedia Ambassador?
I believe I have covered everything important.

@OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --Lukasaolson (talk) 23:47, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

I spoke with Lukas last night on Skype. He was well prepared, and he's going to follow up with me after he does some more research into the program and Wikipedia. He is looking at getting course credit for being a Campus Ambassador. I'll wait to assign the user right until he follows up with an article he'd like to improve, similar to what happened at Talk:Forty Studies That Changed Psychology. Biosthmors (talk) 08:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- If we're going to give him any rights, he needs a professor and class to work with, as there is no need to hand someone rights that they won't be using if all they're going to do is outreach. Honestly, if you're going to do outreach, you're better off without the Education Program, because it allows you to be more flexible, but then you can also incorporate the program over time, once you have a class. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 17:46, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Template for students' talk pages?

Is there a template I can use for new students, to put at the top of their talk pages, to identify them as members of the program? I've been using {{WAP student}}, but it says "Ambassador program", so I assume it is out-of-date. Klortho (talk) 12:45, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Hey Klortho, Template:Course assignment is one. Did you get the class set up with an OA? Thanks for your contributions here. Biosthmors (talk) 12:50, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

{{educational assignment}} is another. I've also suggested simply placing something like

<center>{{fontcolor||#CEF2E0|''This article is part of an [[WP:Assignment for student editors|assignment]] from Saint Louis University in Spring 2013 (see the [[Education Program:Saint Louis University/Signal Transduction (SP13)|course page]] for more details)''.}}</center>

before. Best. Biosthmors (talk) 12:55, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

One could put is/was to not worry about the time details. Biosthmors (talk) 12:55, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, got two OAs, thanks, and thanks for the links. Klortho (talk) 13:00, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Great. You're welcome. Biosthmors (talk) 13:02, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm, those seem to be for article talk pages. I want something for the student's talk pages, like what I put here. Klortho (talk) 13:04, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah I should read what's written hunh? Let me think. Biosthmors (talk) 13:06, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Well it's not what you were asking for, but for one class I asked they copy and paste this as the beginning of their user page:

I'm editing Wikipedia as part of [[Education_Program:Saint_Louis_University/Signal_Transduction_(SP13)|this assignment]] and here's a link to [[User:Your user name/sandbox|my sandbox]].

What kind of functionality were you hoping to get with the template? Biosthmors (talk) 13:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if that chat channel is active. That seems like a very useful/potentially useful template. Biosthmors (talk) 13:15, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

The #wikipedia-en-classroom channel is not active any more; it wasn't reliably peopled enough to give a better experience (on average) than #wikipedia-en-help, so the latter is where we've been pointing students for a while. (For those of you hang out on IRC, there's also #wikipedia-en-ambassadors, which is where I and other WMF education program folks can often be found.)--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:37, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

@Klortho and Biosthmors: There's {{welcome student}}. (Naturally, feel free to make improvements.)--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:19, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, both of you. I just ended up updating the banner here. Klortho (talk) 02:10, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Where are the default course pages that are automatically uploaded into the extension?

Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) when u sign ur reply, thx 10:13, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I've tried to document all the pages that are relevant to the extension at Wikipedia:Course pages. The default course pages are part of the {{course page wizard}}; see Template:Course_page_wizard#Components. In particular, the default timeline is here: Template:Course page 2/Timeline/preload.

The default content loaded by the extension itself is just the course page wizard itself, from the this page: Mediawiki:Course description.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:57, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Sage. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) when u sign ur reply, thx 14:04, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

need help in Oklahoma

Here's a request I received today from a prof in Oklahoma--I'm eager to help him as a regional ambassador but he'll need more than that, How can we help him? "From: Kacaliendo <kcaliendo@rose.edu> I am a professor of English at Rose State college in Midwest City, Oklahoma. I teach medieval literature courses and also have a background in digital humanities. I am considering replacing the term paper in my Early English Literature course with a Wikipedia project. Students would locate underdeveloped Wikipedia pages (with guidance) and update and enhance them. I recently attended a colloquium hosted by the University of Oklahoma History of Science program on this topic. I have seen the syllabus template provided by Wikipedia and am excited to apply it to my course. I also coordinate the Honors Program on campus and I see applications for this Wikipedia initiative for our Honors students in a number of disciplines. I look forward to consulting with you further on applying the program to my course. Thank you, Kevin Caliendo English Professor Rose State College " Rjensen (talk) 04:15, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

He might find it helpful to read Wikipedia:Assignments for student editors. You can point him to this noticeboard to apply for the course instructor designation. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:59, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing this, Richard! Hopefully you just got the email I sent you and Kevin about some possible ways we can help support him. User:AndrewN is actually in Stillwater (I was thinking OKC), so he will be unable to drive that far to help the class, but hopefully we can find some online support or even help Kevin train a campus faculty member. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 17:53, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I sent an email too just in case. I'd love to see an honors program establish a good solid assignment or three. Biosthmors (talk) 15:29, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I didn't hear a reply yet. Does this look promising Rjensen? Any update? Best. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:20, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Request for Course Instructor rights: Alas i am

Name

Lori Askeland with User:Kenirwin assisting.

Institution

Wittenberg University

Course title and description English 101: Expository Writing. Required First Year composition course.

Assignment plan Students are not required to edit any Wikipedia article. They are only required to evaluate an article of their choice, in an area that they feel they have some expertise in. They will use both Wikipedia's standards and their own knowledge to evaluate that article.

It is possible that some students will decide to do some editing as part of their final research project, but I will encourage only students who have a genuine engagement with their topic and a serious commitment to the project. There are several other possibilities for their research project, not just Wikipedia work.

Number of students

20

Start and end dates

Sept 2013 until Dec 2013. Lori Askeland 17:03, 10 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alas i am (talk • contribs)

Hello User:Alas i am! That sounds like a wise and measured approach. Will they be posting their observations on article talk pages? That could help any future editor of the article. Are you familiar with article talk pages and how to get there? I honestly don't recommend you use the course software if you're not going to be doing much editing in article space. Just start a WP:Course page in your user space, such as User:Alas i am/Fall 2013. There, you can list all the students, which article talk pages they will post on, and any articles they edit. Click on the red link there to turn it blue, and you can write there whatever instructions you'd like. How does that sound? Best regards. Biosthmors (talk) 13:10, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Granted! Who's this stupid guy talking above me? If you'd like to use the course page software, please feel free! If you'd like to do a simple list, please feel free! But either way, please pick one. =) I'll send you an email to try and make this process easier User:Alas i am. Best! Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:25, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Course page complications

Last night I accidentally created two courses for Education Program:Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies, when I only intended to do one. And should the software not be used in Safari? Things like "Graduate" and "Undergraduate" were popping up as choices for things such as "Term". I thought the performance was so poor, that I'm considering not even recommending its use. =( To me, it defeats the point of a wiki (or teaching people how to edit Wikipedia) because it is so clunky and unlike Wikipedia. I don't want the first thing I show professors to be something that has nothing to do with how Wikipedia is edited... (And doesn't work well!) it's hard enough teaching "user space", "user talk space", "article space", "article talk space", "Wikipedia space", vs. "Wikipedia talk space", etc. One also can't see in user contributions when the course page is created, only its sub talk pages? (As demonstrated with contributions 2, 3 and 4 (me) with Special:Contributions/Elisabeth_Prügl.) And the software also asks students their gender (male and female are the only choices, aside from saying I'd rather not say), which I found rather creepy. At least it provided for a good laugh, given that it's a gender course, as an explicit WMF affirmation of gender binarism. Intersexuality or pansexuality anyone? Can we ditch that are you male or female thing? Biosthmors (talk) 12:49, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T47506

The wrong options popping up in the pulldowns is not specific to Safari; I think it's a bug in the javascript for those pulldowns. (If anyone good with javascript wants to take a look, I suspect the fix is relatively simple; the pulldown entries for the last call to the pulldown script are basically overwriting the others.) Creation and edits to course pages show up as log entries instead of conventional contribs (for example, Special:Log/Elisabeth_Prügl). Fixing that is definitely something we want to do.

As to gender, MediaWiki uses it (although only in a few cases in English, but much more in some languages) so that it can display messages with preferred pronouns and such. (This is a setting in Special:Preferences, which the education program extension gives students the opportunity to set during the enrollment process.) I'm not sure what discussions have happened in the past about making MediaWiki more accommodating for users who don't identify as male or female, but I'll ask around. The purpose in prompting students to set that preference is that it gives us a more complete picture of the gender breakdown of students for research purposes; it's not crucial, but it is useful, so I'm interested to see other perspectives (from students, educators, and other editors) about whether it's objectionable.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:30, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Sage Ross (WMF), right now there are two course pages listed under Education Program:Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies. Sorry I haven't gotten around to filing bugs yet. Maybe you could file this one? It seems that there are two courses listed for the institution, but they have the same title. I'd like to delete one, but I have no way of knowing if by deleting one I'll delete the other. Best. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 07:40, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T45782

Biosthmors, thanks. We thought this was fixed, but clearly it is not so I've reopened the relevant bug.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:47, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Should we change the list of who gets pinged?

It seems like some of the RAs are inactive, such as one who didn't respond to a potential CA for weeks. Biosthmors (talk) 08:56, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

We're not inactive. School has just started for many of us, so we are busy working on other things first before we respond to on-Wiki requests. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 19:56, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Every listed RA is active? Biosthmors (talk) 20:01, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Just because we don't answer, doesn't mean that we don't see it. We all have real lives outside of Wikipedia as well, so we're not all going to respond when we see notifications. If you want to, then by all means do it, but that does not mean that there are inactive RA's out there. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 02:06, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually not, I just got an email confirmation that Dan left the program in July (so FYI, User:Czar). Biosthmors (talk) 16:41, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay, but that does not mean that everyone is inactive. We also watch the pages of other RA's, but I was not watching that page, so I did not know that there was a request that was inactive for that long. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 07:09, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

See? I'm not always wrong. ;-) (I jest.) I've never intended to suggest everyone was inactive. I know that would be false. Thanks for your reply Kevin. Biosthmors (talk) 08:32, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

So we at least need to remove Dan. I wonder if there are any others... Biosthmors (talk) 08:32, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Let's have Jami make that call, as that is not our job to decide who no longer is going to be on that page. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 06:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

? I'm confused. Are you cautioning against any Wikipedia volunteer from removing an inactive RA from the list? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 07:35, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

My apologies

My apologies to everyone (in particular Kevin Gorman, Kevin Rutherford, and OhanaUnited) if I've struck too negative a tone (and irritated you) at times on this noticeboard. I just want things to improve so sometimes that involves me making observations that are critical in the hopes we can create something better. I was reminded recently that this is largely a volunteer endeavor, so that helped me put things in perspective. Thanks for all your contributions. Best. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:24, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for staying with the project. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:40, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of quality outcomes

Wouldn't it be nice if we only gave out course instructor user rights when we could see that the professor was able to complete the assignment they are assigning their students? Just a thought. Biosthmors (talk) 10:10, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

This is not reasonable. A large percentage and often the majority of people who sign up for anything never even begin to do anything with their registration.

It would be useful to know how many professors attempt a class then fail to follow through, but at this time, the technical barriers and time commitment for the program is high and volunteer support is low, so I can understand how it could deter a lot of people. I am happy with the minimal analytics which has already been done, and would like to see an expansion of outreach before an expansion of further collection of data if resources are scarce and both interests would compete for the same funding. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:16, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

A huge benefit of the extension is not only to help professors keep track of student contributions but to give the chance for volunteers and other interested parties to come a long and offer help after reviewing the student edits. Even if you don't grant somebody the user right, they're going to continue their Wikipedia assignment in the classroom. I think it's better to know what the classes are doing and have somebody as a point of contact rather than see the concept of using WP in the classroom expand but "under the radar", as some professors put it. The "request a course instructor user right" process seems to me to be one that gives us the opportunity to hopefully assist more classes rather than not know they even exist. And, yes, the process encourages more profs to describe their assignment, which gives us the chance to provide feedback. That's great, but I don't think it's the only way to help a Wikipedia assignment that's going to happen anyway. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 18:18, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't volunteers and interested parties have to 1) have the right user right and 2) sign up to follow the course in order to follow it? Biosthmors (talk) 11:21, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

And the only advantage I see in the extension to professors is that they can see the last several edits made under accounts of the class. But to really evaluate students individually, wouldn't one still need to click on the contributions history of individual students? Biosthmors (talk) 11:35, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The fact that Wikipedia:School and university projects page was created long before the creation of this noticeboard and the education program answers your question. It is not mandatory for them to inform us or to sign up for instructor user right. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 03:11, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I generally grant the course instructor userright to any instructor who asks for it, even if I disagree with their assignment. I will certainly express my disagremeent with their assignment and offer my advice about how to improve it, but being able to track someone's students is INFINITELY preferable to having an under the radar class where we cannot keep track of the damage their students may be doing. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:16, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

User:OhanaUnited, sorry to waste your time with a rhetorical question. I was just generally dreaming of an idealized wiki-world. Yes, of course, anyone can edit. Kevin Gorman, I understand your logic. But... can all Wikipedia editors actually track classes by clicking the "View Activity" tab from an extension course page that I see here, for example? Best regards. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:18, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Biosthmors: yes, they can. I just successfully did so while not logged in to any user account on several different browsers. It's not the best tracking ever and I still often just go off of the student lists provided by course pages but it certainly beats nothing. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:28, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Kevin Gorman, and I just created this dummy account to check as well. I'm glad this is an open feature. Best. Biosthmorstest (talk) 07:42, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Request for course instructor right: Ayaita (talk)

Name

Ltholnes (Instructor) and Ayaita (Course coordinator)

Institution

Technological University of Panama

Course title and description

Course title: Design and analysis of computer networks. The course is given to undergraduate Systems Engineering students. The instructor will be working with an experienced editor who will help with the assignment plan and student training.

Assignment plan

Students will write, improve and/or translate (from English to Spanish) existing articles related to computer networks.

Number of students

26

Start and end dates

The assignment will run from September 23rd to November 15th, 2013

@OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --Ayaita (talk) 21:17, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Return to the Course pages module.

Request for course instructor right: Shrnirish (talk)

Name

Sharon Irish

Institution

University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign

Course title and description

Dialogues on Feminism and Technology is a graduate seminar and is part of FemTechNet's Distributed Open Collaborative Course: we are covering eleven themes and students are required to engage with Wikipedia in some way, whether reviewing articles, working on stubs, or participating in a discussion. The students will specify what they intend to do by October 7, 2013. We are working with Adrianne Wadewitz and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Feminism/Students

Assignment plan

The key goal is to have students experience basic interaction with Wikipedia community by identifying a small task. We will know more on October 7.

Number of students

18

Start and end dates

August 26 to December 16, 2013

@OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --Shrnirish (talk) 23:15, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Return to the Course pages module.

Hi Sharon - I went ahead and granted you the course instructor userright which should allow you to set up your course page. Please let me know if you need help with anything at any point this semester. Thanks, Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:50, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Request for course instructor right: Vaparedes (talk)

Name

Veronica Paredes and @AnneMBalsamo: Anne Balsamo

Institution

The New School

Course title and description

LCST 3705: Dialogues on Feminism and Technology & NMDS 5292: Practicum in Experimental Networked Learning Design -- These two courses are part of the FemTechNet 2013 DOCC (Distributed Open Collaborative Course) effort. The first is an advanced undergraduate course in the Eugene Lang College, The New School for Liberal Arts. There are 18 students registered in this course. Course topics address a range of issues and themes drawn from the history of the feminist engagement with science and technology and from contemporary feminist work in technology and media.

The other course (NMDS 5292) is a small graduate seminar composed of only four students, based in the School of Media Studies at The New School for Public Engagement. Unlike the undergraduate class, the four graduate students enrolled in this class will explore issues of networked infrastructures for learning, learner-centered pedagogies, collaborative knowledge creation, and transformational practices of design and media making. They will take active roles in shaping their own research agendas in FemTechNet's research and projects.

A key assignment for the undergraduate course is engagement with Wikipedia. Throughout the first half of the semester, students will become familiar with the policies, protocols and community of Wikipedia. In this assignment, they will ultimately contribute to, or begin, articles related to the themes of feminism, science and technology.

In coordination with the FemTechNet community, we will be working with Adrianne Wadewitz @Wadewitz: and the WikiProject Feminism.

Assignment plan

The midterm project requires that all students contribute to Wikipedia -- though we are hoping a number of students will continue their work throughout the semester, carrying into their final projects. The midterm assignment will require students thoroughly document their process. In the following weeks they will begin choosing topics, creating reference lists and writing short summaries for these topics. We are using assignment and workshop suggestions from The Sample Syllabus guide and the Instructor Basics brochure to reach these milestones. This week we have covered Wikipedia's key policies in class and have assigned the online training for students. We are hoping to have all students' user accounts listed by the end of the week, once we have permission to set up the course page.

Number of students

22

Start and end dates

The date range for the class began August 26, 2013 and ends December 11, 2013.

@OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --Vaparedes (talk) 03:47, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Return to the Course pages module.

Hi Vaparedes: I went ahead and granted both you and Anne the course instructor userright. This will allow you to set up a course page. Please let me know if you need help with anything at any point this semester. Thanks, Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:48, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Maybe ambassadors could write about a paragraph after each semester

And publish it on Wikipedia, summarizing their goals, what they did, what worked, what didn't, and what they hope to try in the next semester. Or they could say they might not continue to volunteer and why. Or they would like to do something but are trying to figure out how and would like help. There could be subpages that are then transcluded into one page. Does anyone think this voluntary action might help things along? Biosthmors (talk) 10:10, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Not sure. The education program now is different than it was a year ago and will be different a year from now. The information that an ambassador might share might not have lasting relevance. Something ought to be documented but I am not sure what. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:11, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

One of the ideas the initial WEF working group aspired to was to establish a curated library of “best practices” resources widely available to educators, students and Wikipedians. Dumping one experience at a time (good or bad) randomly, without structure, into the bowels of Wikipedia almost ensures no one (especially those outside the day-to-day Wikipedia community) will ever benefit from them. I still hope the WEF intends to pursue a “curated resources library” strategy to will make all the learnings from using Wikipedia in the classroom widely available outside the confines and limitations of the Wikipedia wiki. --Mike Cline (talk) 17:23, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Hey Mike Cline! I thought it was M. Christie posting. I was hoping WP:Student assignments would be a one-stop-shop kind of place. I think we should have a suite of nice course pages that we present there. Maybe you have some ideas for how it could improve? Best regards. Biosthmors (talk) please notify me (i.e. {{U}}) when you sign your reply, thx 08:48, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors – My personal view is that the Wikipedia Wiki is a very poor place (functionally, format wise, and stability) to build a curated library of peer reviewed “best practices” as it relates to using Wikipedia in the classroom. Although WP:Student assignments is an interesting read, it does not even come close to providing the kind of curated resources that the average university professor could use to plan and execute a Wikipedia assignment in their classroom. Plus, it is doubtful the average professor interested in using Wikipedia would ever stumble across it on their own. When I was part of the WEF project I wrote this about “curated resources”.

One of the primary functions of the Wiki Education Foundation is to make available digitally curated resources to a wide audience (students, instructors, professors, administrators, librarians, etc.) in institutions of higher education and volunteers from Wikimedia communities in the U.S. and Canada that encourage and support the effective use of English Wikipedia in support of classroom learning objectives and information fluency.
Digital curation is the selection, preservation, maintenance, collection and archiving of digital assets. Digital curation establishes, maintains and adds value to repositories of digital data for present and future use. This is often accomplished by archivists, librarians, scientists, historians, and scholars. Enterprises are starting to utilize digital curation to improve the quality of information and data within their operational and strategic processes. Successful digital curation will mitigate digital obsolescence, keeping the information accessible to users indefinitely. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_curation)

Curated resources may include but are not limited to: case studies, general and discipline specific curriculum and lesson plans, Wikipedia training, tutorials and best practices, scholarly studies, etc.

Curated resources may be in the form of presentations, PDF and Word documents, videos, images, etc.

Curated resources must be stored and organized in ways that allow easy access and use by all levels of users in the Wikipedia and Academic communities.

Another primary function of the Wiki Education Foundation is to provide a collaboration platform where geographically separated staff, program volunteers, Wikipedians and participating academics, librarians and students can connect and collaborative on specific Wikipedia in education initiatives, events, classes and scholarly activity.

I doubt seriously that the Wikipedia Wiki could ever aspire to make the above types of resources widely available to educators. I hope the new WEF will pursue a more universally accessible, comprehensive and functional off-wiki approach to building and making such a library of best practices available. --Mike Cline (talk) 14:06, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

"I doubt seriously that the Wikipedia Wiki could ever aspire to make the above types of resources widely available to educators." Mike, can you explain why you think this? I agree with you that a curated library of the sort you indicate would be a very good idea. But I'm not entirely sure why you think that "functionally, format wise, and stability," Wikipedia is not the place for it. I agree that the Wikipedia pages on the WEF are a mess, but that mess is only made worse by the decision go to off-wiki and essentially neglect Wikipedia. In any case, on-wiki or off what's important is that effort is made to (precisely) curate such a list of resources. I don't see any such effort invested off wiki. On wiki at least the WEF could draw upon the good will and enthusiasm of people who are actually interested and engaged in the project. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 17:18, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

@Jbmurray, in my view, the structure and norms of the Wikipedia Wiki are fine for an online, collaboratively built encyclopedia, but are ill-suited for building and maintaining a curated library of best practices resources (especially if you want systematic peer/crowd sourced review of those resources to identify the best and most widely used) focused on the productive use of Wikipedia in achieving classroom learning objectives. Most Wikipedians think the Education Program is all about “Getting Students to Edit Wikipedia”. In my view, that’s 180° from what the program is really all about—using Wikipedia to help instructors in higher education courses to achieve learning objectives—whatever they might be. Editing Wikipedia may be a by-product of achieving learning objectives that indeed improves Wikipedia, but it is not the end all-be all of the Education Program. We use Wikipedia in freshman writing and University Studies classes at MSU in ways that don’t involve any editing. Yet, there’s no way (at present) to share those lesson plans and learning objectives with the global educator community on the Wikipedia Wiki and in turn get the feedback from the educator community on the efficacy of any given lesson plan.

I personally have aspirations as to what a “curated library of best practice resources” might look like, but in no way do I believe I have the perfect solution. On the other hand, I am confident that the Wikipedia Wiki is ill-suited, and would be extremely ineffective in making a “curated library of best practices” widely available to educators across the US and Canada.

As a matter of example, I submit that Educause is a style of curated resources and associated collaboration that would suit the WEF well. Wikipedia should focus on being the best online encyclopedia it can possibly be. The WEF should focus on finding ways to promote the most effective methods of using Wikipedia in classrooms of higher education to achieve learning objectives in undergraduate and graduate classrooms. Should Wikipedia benefit from those methods, all the better. --Mike Cline (talk) 02:04, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Mike, thanks for sharing that perspective. I am of the opinion that you could document some great ideas on Wikipedia. Could you please share your knowledge at WP:Achieving learning objectives with Wikipedia? I think it would be a great place for you to share (it could be a Wikipedia essay, if you'd like), then everyone will be able to see your ideas as well. Please share your knowledge and thoughts about things the WEF could focus on there! Best regards. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 07:50, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

In other words, Mike, I think it would be nice if a curated library existed at one point, but why not make a start at getting some of the big helpful ideas down on Wikipedia so everyone can see them? I would like to know your ideas, so that I can share them with instructors. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:49, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Request for course instructor right: AJuhasz1 (talk)

Name

Alex Juhasz

Institution

Pitzer College

Course title and description

The name of our course is Feminist Dialogues on Technology. In this course, we’ll be exploring the ways that gender and technology have defined and redefined each other socially and culturally. This class is part of a larger project (see http://fembotcollective.org/femtechnet/), so students will participate in ongoing collaborations in feminism, technology, video, art and craft. Students are given the opportunity to edit Wikipedia pages that are relevant to the course, and of interest to them. They will contribute in the following ways: content creation, content editing or language correction. 15 advanced undergraduates will be taking this course in the fall semester. We will be working with experienced editor, Adrianne Wadewitz.

Assignment plan

Our class will be editing Wikipedia, hoping add feminist scholarship to already existing content on Wikipedia, as well as create and expand articles on women who played and are playing important roles in history and current events. By adding articles and information about women and feminist scholarship, we are making certain women and their contributions to culture are remembered and acknowledged in the digital landscape. By becoming contributors to Wikipedia, we are helping change the demographics of Wikipedia’s editor-base in order to create a more equitable, inviting space.

Number of students

15

Start and end dates

September-December 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by AJuhasz1 (talk • contribs) 19:49, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Alex, I went ahead and granted you the necessary userright to complete your course page. Please feel free to reach out to me at any point during the semester that you or your students need help with anything. Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:04, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Campus Ambassador application: Mattvest

Mattvest (talk · contribs)

Why do you want to be a Wikipedia Ambassador?
To support faculty and students at Davidson College.
Where are you based, and which educational institution(s) do you plan to work with as a Campus Ambassador?
North Carolina, Davidson College.
What is your academic and/or professional background?
Librarian
In three sentences or less, summarize your prior experience with Wikimedia projects.
I have created one wikipedia page.
What else should we know about you that is relevant to being a Wikipedia Ambassador?
N/A

@OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --Mattvest (talk) 18:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Mattvest, I am a regional ambassador, so I can get you started! We interview people on Skype. I'll either email you or write a note for you on your talk page, unless someone beats me to this process. Best regards. Biosthmors (talk) 11:50, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
I just emailed Matt with a Davidson College adddress I found online to see if he was still interested. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 06:56, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Online Ambassador application: Cymru.lass

cymru.lass (talk · contribs)

Why do you want to be a Wikipedia Ambassador?
I am (and always have been) very passionate about Wikipedia, and I share that passion whenever I can. I'd love the opportunity to work face-to-face with people to help get them acquainted with the way things work around here.
In three sentences or less, summarize your involvement with Wikimedia projects.
I've been editing Wikipedia from this account for just under three and a half years; before that, I edited as an IP from 2006/2007 up until I created my account. I've contributed to many pages in many different ways—template editing, copy editing, translation, WikiGnoming, vandalism reversion, new pages patrolling, and more.
Please indicate a few articles to which you have made significant content contributions. (e.g. DYK, GA, FA, major revisions/expansions/copyedits).
As a WikiGnome-type editor, my edits tend to be spread out over a large number of articles. My areas of interest are widespread, ranging from technical maintenance to vandalism reversion to new page patrol to translation to copyediting and beyond. I translated Mount Abantos from es:Monte Abantos), and I've done a bunch of template work such as creating {{Welcome unref blp}} and making the template {{ping}} be able to handle parameters formatted as "User:Example" and/or "Example", as opposed to just "Example". Copyedits include: [1] [2] (these were a while back, and my grasp of English and Wikipedia style guidelines has continued to improve since then).
What do you see as the most important ways we could welcome newcomers or help new users become active contributors?
Assuming good faith is (of course) key to welcoming/helping new users, but I think the importance of understanding what it's like to be a newbie is largely overlooked by many Wikipedians who come into contact with new users. When they first start contributing to Wikipedia, most people aren't familiar at all with the way Wikipeda works, beyond the "anyone can edit" tagline. The problem with saying things like "Please see WP:COPYRIGHT. Also, you should read WP:GNG" to a new user who has just created an article about a non-notable person that violates copyright is that a) the user probably doesn't know what the Wikipedia namespace is, b) it doesn't explain what WP:COPYRIGHT and WP:GNG are and why they have anything to do with what's going on, and c) curt statements like that can makes the user feel like they did something wrong/make them feel stupid (yes, the user violated Wikipedia policy, but in all likelihood, that edit was in good faith). I'm not saying all this from a high horse or anything; I only realized all of that relatively recently. I love the reminders at WP:BITE, especially "Behavior that appears malicious to experienced Wikipedians is more likely caused by ignorance of our expectations and rules" and Observe for a while and, if necessary, ask what the newcomer is trying to achieve before concluding that their efforts are substandard or that they are simply "wrong".

A recent example of my being patient with newbies instead of just immediately tossing some policy shortcuts at them and nominating their article for deletion could be found at User talk:Speakforthose318.
Have you had major conflicts with other editors? Blocks or bans? Involvement in arbitration? Feel free to offer context, if necessary.
I haven't had any major conflicts with other editors, nor have I ever been blocked, banned, involved in arbitration or discussed at WP:AN/I. I've had minor conflicts in the past (as anybody who edits Wikipedia long enough will), but I've kept my cool well enough to not take anything personally and to know when I'm getting irritated and it's time to give the discussion a little space.
How often do you edit Wikipedia and check in on ongoing discussions? Will you be available regularly for at least two hours per week, in your role as a mentor?
If you check my contribution history, you'll see that in 2012 and early- to mid-2013, I wasn't the most regular of contributors, initially due to settling in to college, and then to injuries sustained in a car crash. Now that I'm used to my college workload and the injuries preventing me from contributing regularly are healed, I'm back to checking Wikipedia at least daily. I usually check in briefly at least 3 times a day, and I tend to have at least one daily period where I'm editing/hanging around for over an hour.
How would you make sure your students were not violating copyright laws?
The first step to making sure my students don't violate copyright laws is to make sure they understand copyright laws and how they apply to Wikipedia. Pointing them to Wikipedia:Copyrights#Using copyrighted work from others is a must, as is explaining what the CC-BY-SA and GDFL licenses actually mean and pointing them to Wikipedia:Plagiarism. Also important is making sure they're aware of the fact that anything they find on the internet or in a book is copyrighted, unless it says otherwise or the material falls under public domain. A significant amount of people are under the impression that if material doesn't have the word "copyrighted" on it, then it's not copyrighted. On top of that, it's important to periodically check in with the students to make sure they are citing their sources (and doing it properly), since not citing one's sources is a form of plagiarism. I could also direct them to Help:External links and references, a mini-tutorial I created about 3 years ago, as well as Help:Referencing for beginners.
If one of your students had an issue with copyright violation how would you resolve it?
The first thing would be to confirm that what's going on is indeed copyright violation. Next, I would remove any copyrighted material and get in touch with the student to notify him/her and explain why the material had to be removed (with relevant policy links). I might also consider messaging or emailing the teacher/professor and asking him/her to give the students a gentle reminder about copyright violations the next time the class met. I would then monitor the student's future contribs for more copyvios. If it continued to be a problem and I could tell the student was receiving my messages and either persistently not understanding or choosing to ignore what I was saying, I would again contact the teacher/prof, this time explicitly naming the student and explaining the problem. I would also consider bring it to the attention of administrators via WP:ANI.
In your _own_ words describe what copyright violation is.
Broadly speaking, copyright violation is the use of material in a way that you don't have the right to do. Some of the things falling under the definition of copyright infringement include directly copying images amounts of text from a copyrighted source (whether attributed or not; this does not include short, properly attributed quotes or the use of images under fair use) and copying material from a copylefted source that violates the copyleft license in some way (examples include not attributing text copied from a CC-BY source or not distributing text from a CC-BY-SA source under the same license). Also it should be noted that per Wikipedia policy, information copied from a public domain source still needs to be attributed in order to avoid plagiarism (while not technically illegal, it is unethical not to do so).
What else should we know about you that is relevant to being a Wikipedia Ambassador?
I'm also interested in being a Campus Ambassador (that's what I originally applied for, before User:Biosthmors pointed out that I can apply for both) in the event that any classroom projects start up in the Buffalo, NY area (not limiting myself to one school/college as there are a ton of colleges in this area easily accessible to me by public transportation). I think that about covers it.

Endorsements

(Two endorsements are needed for online ambassador approval.)

Endorse. An experienced user, and someone that I trust very much – fully qualified. By the way, if you haven't yet read WP:ASSIGN, I'll put in a shameless plug for it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:10, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
I have in fact read WP:ASSIGN :) Thank you for your trust! — Preceding signed comment added by Cymru.lass (talk • contribs) 23:42, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
Endorse. This user has the skills to be a Wikipedia Ambassador on behalf of the Wikipedia community. =) Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:04, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Request for Course Instructor Right

Instructor Names: Billy Pashaie pangurban22 (talk · contribs), and Randa Wahbe bitjennin32 (talk · contribs)

Institution: Cypress College

Course title and description: English 60/100--This is a freshman composition course.

Assignment plan: Groups of 2 students will identify an issue covered in this course, will make sure that the issue is not already covered in Wikipedia, and will collaborate to create a Wikipedia entry for their issue.

Number of students: 22 students total; 11 groups of 2 students will collaborate to make contributions

Start and end dates: 8/26/13 to 12/15/13 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pangurban22 (talk • contribs) 16:15, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello there! Are you familiar with the general notability guideline? There are peculiar requirements for what should exist as a Wikipedia article sometimes. =) Also, see the reasons for merging articles. It's sometimes a challenge to identify which articles need creating. How do you anticipate to make this part of the course? Best. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 17:00, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Biosthmors. Thank you once again! I have watched some videos for instruction on Wikipedia, but haven't read the pages you've suggested. I will do so, and I appreciate your suggestions. pangurban22 —Preceding undated comment added 17:38, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. FYI to the others, I've emailed the link to the training to Professor Pashaie and when it's taken I'll grant the user right. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 22:00, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Course page issues

Would there be any reason why Education Program:Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies/Gender and International Affairs (Fall 2013) wouldn't automatically reflect what is in User:Ituta/Course page, which is WP:Transcluded in? I don't see a purge function on the Education Program: page. I am getting reports of students not being able to see the updates to User:Ituta/Course page on Education Program:Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies/Gender and International Affairs (Fall 2013). Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:53, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

You can purge it with one of the "return to your main course page and continue" links that are included in the default course wizard subpages, such as this one. Outdated transclusions can stick around for a long time on course pages, which is why I had to add those purge links. If updating that Ituta's userspace course page is going to happen regularly, I suggest pasting in the same noincluded purge link on that page so that it's convenient to purge after each update.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:16, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Sage. I would think most edits have been made, but I tried adding that just in case. I replaced the page name. That link now takes me to Education Program:Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies though, so I don't know if it helps. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

You're right, that link code assumes you're on a subpage. I changed it.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:32, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

User:Ituta, this is now fixed. =) Just click the link at the bottom of User:Ituta/Course page and refresh the course page if it ever happens again. Thanks Sage! Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:35, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you so much!Ituta (talk) 14:10, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Need additional monitors for apparent class IP

This IP appears to be editing on behalf of student assignments. As you might expect, some of the additions are perfectly fine, but many of them not so much (garbled grammar, using questionable sources, copying lyrics wholesale). I've been doing my best to check all of the edits, but will be pretty busy today; could use some additional eyes. Thanks, OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 15:34, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I'll help. Flyer22 (talk) 17:21, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks much, Flyer22! OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 17:42, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. It's the least I can do for all your help around here. Flyer22 (talk) 18:47, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Request for course instructor right: NewmanComm (talk)

Name

<Dr. Suzanne V. L. Berg>

Institution

Course title and description

Assignment plan

Number of students

<Four>

Start and end dates

@OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --NewmanComm (talk) 16:08, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Return to the Course pages module.

This sounds good. I just don't typically grant the course instructor right unless I have some sort of postive interaction with the instructor. Has anyone spoken with Suzanne? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 22:10, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Has anyone spoken with Suzanne? I guess I'll go look up the regional ambassadors. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 18:29, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

From the Skyplains region, we have User:Rjensen, thought Richard didn't reply to my previous request to comment here. Richard, would you like to talk to Suzanne and orient her? I see that you're busy doing content contributions, which is awesome, by the way. Thanks for that. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 18:33, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I emailed her today. Rjensen (talk) 21:24, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Extension

Per a conversation at WP:VPPR, Wikipedia:EducationProgram extension now exists. Feel free to improve/discuss. Best. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:25, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: I would suggest instead pointing people to mw:Extension:Education Program to discuss / read about the extension itself. I've tried to make Wikipedia:Course pages the hub for info about how the extension is used on English Wikipedia. I don't see why an additional separate page is needed.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 16:03, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Ah yes perhaps it should be merged into the course page page. Or perhaps the specific extension stuff should be moved over there? To me the MediaWiki software peculiarities/issues are distinct enough to merit a separate page, though we might not be there in terms of the amount of content yet. I don't like working at mediawiki.org, personally. There's probably ways to make WP:Student assignments and WP:Course page agree more as well. Just more to do, I guess! Best. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:56, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I formatted the link wrong that points to the existing hub for the extension itself (on mediawiki.org).--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:49, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

No worries. I added a link to it on the en.wiki page in the see also section. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 19:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Education noticeboard/Header

Wikipedia:Education noticeboard/Header could probably use some editing. Just a note. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 22:57, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Done. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 19:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Education program

I just tried to edit this page to add a note for Aussies, Brits, Kiwis, etc., but the page is so fancified, I don't know how to direct people to relevant community resources. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:25, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm planning on being bold and claiming this one for the community as a neutral and welcoming wiki-page, since this is Wikipedia. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:29, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Training slides

For Wikipedia:Training/For students/How a ragtag band created Wikipedia video and Wikipedia:Training/For students/Why Wikipedians are Weird video, and all other training slides like this in the other training modules, could we simply replace them with one slide called "Why do people edit Wikipedia" and then show them this video, which I find impressive? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 11:16, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: Given that the "background" module is supplemental, and seen only by people who choose to go beyond the basic training series, I suggest adding it rather than replacing it. I do like that video, but I think it serves a different purpose to the other two. It's a feel-good inspirational video along the lines of the earlier 2010 video series that were initially used in these trainings. One consistent piece of feedback that came in was that those videos were unnecessary (although I like them a lot too), so I took them out. But it's a fine addition to the optional module. Feel free to add it!--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:39, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Sage, maybe you could intimidate some intern at the WMF do it (or recruit one)? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 18:57, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

To do what, exactly? czar ♔ 03:56, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

To remove ineffective propaganda and to replace it with effective propaganda. =) I have to say that is the most effective use of WMF funds that I've ever seen. Somebody convince me otherwise. Echo/notifications is awesome. Right the the VisualEditor isn't worth the investment, but the long-term potential is tremendous. But I guess I'll have to WP:Be bold and do it myself. But you know, this is an outsider's point of view so I'd love to hear what WMF employees think was the best and worse use of donor funds. It would be nice to have some sort of WMF-employee survey published anonymously, so those that serve can speak, in my opinion. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 06:30, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

I meant, what are you suggesting some intern should do? Make another video like that one? czar ♔ 14:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Nope just incorporate it into the presentation and remove the others. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:30, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

At m:Grants:IEG/Comprehensive and wiki-like training pages I've asked for $40 to fund me to translude all the training slides into four single pages. I hope this spurs improvement, discussion, and analysis. I also hope someone (maybe it will be me) uses these pages to help make fast-paced tutorial videos. Comments appreciated. Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 20:38, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Categories for course pages

Category:Wikipedia United States Education Program courses, 2011 Q3 is an example of a sub-category of course pages. But is there a parent category? And are Education Program: course pages being put into a category? I'd like to see all of these course pages all categorized together under one parent category, whether they're in User space, Education Program: space, or Wikipedia: space. Is that already done? Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 18:48, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Since categories do not work with Education Program: course pages, there are no categories for those; the alternative is to use the filters on Special:Courses. Not ideal, I know.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 16:05, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T56606

Is that a feature request already tracked in Bugzilla? Man I really need to get my myself over there and post. But now I have a bug to help me on that issue of not posting bugs. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:08, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

It is not tracked in Bugzilla. I expect that it would be dependent on implementing ContentHandler, but it looks at this point like WMF will maintain the extension with bug fixes but not undertake the major project of that. Instead, we've been talking with the Growth team about developing a new, more general system for managing outreach projects that could replace the current extension.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

My gut instinct is to like this new more general system idea. I hope it comes to fruition and enables categories. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Watchlisting course pages

I've noticed (here) that main course pages are set up with buttons for "Enroll" and "Watch this course" near the top left of the page. The normal star icon that regular editors use to watchlist pages seems to be disabled, so that the "Watch" button is the only way to watchlist the class project. I guess that's user-friendly for student editors, but it's confusing for experienced non-student editors who want to get involved with a class project. I think we should want to encourage that kind of involvement. Could the regular process of watchlisting be re-enabled, along with the new button? --Tryptofish (talk) 17:45, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

For this specific class, I recommend watchlisting Education Program talk:Georgia Institute of Technology/Introduction to Neuroscience (Fall 2013)/Timeline, as that's where the students are listing the articles. I'm not encouraging students to actually list in the space where the software is designed for it, because of its poor functionality. This software removes tons of the benefits of Wikipedia but only yields a tracking feature as an added benefit. To me, this should be a feature given to the community for whoever wants to assemble a list of editors. There is a new page at WP:Education Program extension with a diff to a recent comment about it in the see also that relates to its development. The page there should link to the tracking feature that is available for every class. Just click "View Activity" tab to see recent edits on any of the clunky Education Program: spaces pages now listed at Special:Courses. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 17:56, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

That's all well and good, but I would like it to be possible, in general (not just for this particular class) for experienced editors to be able to figure out how to watchlist a course page if they want to do so. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:00, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

That watchlist link is basically a hack to work around the limitations of the course pages as currently implemented. You actually can't watch the course pages themselves, only the talk pages. Adding a pseudo-watchlist feature to allow any user to add class's activity feed to their Special:MyCourses even without being an instructor, student or ambassador might be a possibility in the near-term bug fixes without re-engineering the whole extension phase of development.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 18:19, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I have a follow-up question. Once I have clicked the "Watch this course" button, how do I un-watch it? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:21, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Understood and agreed. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 22:45, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure you can click talk and unwatch it there from what Sage has told me as a work-around. Sage, by the way, who all worked on giving guidance for the design of this software? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 22:45, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that works. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:48, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Good. You're welcome. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 22:59, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: You asked "who all worked on giving guidance for the design of this software?" The short history of it (as I understand it) is that Frank Schulenburg worked closely with the author of the extension during its initial creation, setting the basic things the extension needed to be able to do. However, many of the issues that hold it back related to how it doesn't behave it the ways we expect of wiki pages are due to the fact that standard ways for combining free-form wiki content and structured data into a single page did not exist when it was first designed. The ContentHandler thing I've mentioned in the past is technology that was created to address similar issues for Wikidata, and wasn't available when main structure of the education program extension was written.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:34, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

$500,000+ to jumpstart for a Brazilian education program

As mentioned in the Signpost, and in line with this comment, I posted over here on m:meta-wiki. I have asked some questions about a grant proposal that seeks to catalyze an education program. I have mentioned this noticeboard and WP:ASSIGN. I'm wondering if the grant proposers have some lessons to learn from the English Wikipedia's experiences. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:44, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors:, I think "jumpstart a Brazilian education program" is a bit unfair, since they started the education program in Brazil in 2011. The "Catalyst" reference is to the Brazil Catalyst project; as part of Sue's Narrowing Focus document, the Brazil Catalyst team (who has been running an education program in Brazil, among other activities and programs) was instructed to find an organization that WMF could transition the Catalyst team to, similar to what the India team did with CIS. Ação Educativa is the organization the team has found. I've had many conversations with the Brazil Catalyst team and with the staff at Ação Educativa, and I think it's a great fit. The team running the education program in Brazil participates in global meetings and discussions (you met Tom from the Catalyst team and Fernanda from Ação Educativa at the Chapters Conference in Milan) and is well aware of education program learning points from many countries, not just the United States and Canada. As you may know, the Portuguese Wikipedia community has a very different culture from the English Wikipedia community in some key ways that affect the education program's development, and I think after two years of running the program on the Portuguese Wikipedia, they have a good idea of where they need to go to achieve good results. -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 16:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments LiAnna. I struck the portion you thought was unfair. I'm not an expert on the Portuguese Wikipedia community, nor do I plan on learning about it in depth. I just perceive a tension between the professors and the community in the grant's language. I'm glad to hear you think lessons have been learned. I just find student assignments to be quite difficult to manage. We recently had an administrator on this site apologize here on the noticeboard and vow to never run an assignment again after it went badly. Thanks for your comments. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 17:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Templates

Could someone with admin rights please edit {{educational assignment}} to point the link to Wikipedia:Student assignments to match {{course assignment}}. Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:28, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

~~Ping to Doc James please. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 22:47, 27 September 2013 (UTC)~~

This is now done. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:29, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Request for course instructor right: mjharper (talk)

Name

Matthew Harper

Institution

Otto-von-Guericke Universität Magdeburg

Course title and description

Main course title: Critical Thinking and Media Competence. The main aims of the course are to foster the skills mentioned in the title, and I'd like to do that by using a Wikipedia activity, based on the 12-week syllabus. A further aim is to improve writing ability. As this course takes place in the Sprachenzentrum (language centre), most of the students are non-native speakers, at UniCERT III and IV level, or C1 / C2 of the Common European Framework.

Assignment plan

As a first attempt, I plan to follow the sample syllabus pretty closely.

Number of students

There may be around 50 students in the main course. It used to be a (small) lecture, but I'm trying to change it into something a bit more interactive and 'blended'. In addition, there are a couple of smaller groups I would like to do the same course with, partly to see the difference between smaller groups, partly to test the idea thoroughly, and partly because the students still need to develop the skills identified as goals.

Start and end dates

October 14 2013 - Start of February 2014. I appreciate this is short notice. Sorry.

@OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --mjharper (talk) 12:38, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Return to the Course pages module.

Hey there mjharper, have you taken the WP:Training for instructors? Have you read over WP:ASSIGN? Best. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:49, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, Biosthmors. I to answer your question, I've worked through the training for instructors up to the point where it directed me here in order to set up a course page. I've also been through many of the resources on the Education Portal. mjharper (talk) 19:41, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I left a message at User talk:Mjharper. Has anyone emailed Matt? Whose region does this fit into? Or is it an international thing? Shouldn't we welcome international classrooms with ambassador support as well? I don't know why volunteers would care whether or not a classroom was in the U.S. or Canada. I'm currently helping a classroom in Switzerland. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:45, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I emailed Matt. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:51, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Request for course instructor right: Bruceselleck (talk)

Name

Bruce Selleck

Institution

Colgate University

Course title and description

Stratigraphy and Sedimentation. This 300-level geology course involves students in the study of sediments, sedimentary rocks and the spatial and temporal distribution of sedimentary rock units

Assignment plan

Wikipedia converaage of geological formations is relatively sparse. The general public has increasing interest in the sedimentary rocks units involved in natural gas exploration and development, including natural gas. Each student will either edit existing entries, or create new entries, for sedimentary rock formations in the Appalachian Basin of NY, PA and OH.

Number of students

12

Start and end dates

September 1, 2013-December 12, 2013

@OhanaUnited, Neelix, Ktr101, Pharos, and Pongr: @Sleuthwood, Etlib, Daniel Simanek, Biosthmors, and Kayz911: @DStrassmann, Rjensen, Bluerasberry, and Kevin Gorman: --Bruceselleck (talk) 18:15, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Return to the Course pages module.

If I remember correctly, User:Pharos, this is your region. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:48, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Tracking students, categories, user pages should link to course pages

Is there any way to search the education extension to see if, for example, User:Stack0711, who I saw at WT:ANAT, is a student in a course within the extension? There is no link on the user page to a course page. (Linking to the course page from the user page follows WP:STUDENTUSER. It would be great if signing up as a student enabled a category to be added to the student's page that then linked to the course page. This would automate the process.) Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 18:46, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

What class are they in?

If anyone figures out what class they're from please post here thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 19:03, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

It might be a Cornell class. A couple of students who took the training class and posted feedback on the same day noted they came from Cornell. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:44, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

You can check from Special:WhatLinksHere/User:Ran21, which I thought should show the EP pages, if linked (but perhaps not). The editor's in Education Program:Boston College/Developmental Biology (Fall 2013). czar ♔ 19:59, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Sage, should that be filed as a bug/feature request (per WP:WMF, where "feature request" is defined) or should we just assume that the new version of this software will have normal Wikipedia functionality? Or is that not a safe assumption and would you recommend that we document all the things we want it to do? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:12, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

@Czar and Biosthmors: Making 'what links here' work is someone I expect will be part of a replacement for the course pages extension. Currently, the easiest way to find out if a user has enrolled in a course is to check their logs: Special:Log/Ran21. All course-related actions (enrolling, unenrolling, adding an article, signing up as a reviewer) should show up in the log.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:15, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Ah, the logs. Good point. Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 20:19, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Medicine course

I'm on vacation but posting this as a heads up - anyone know anything about this? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/UCSF Elective 2013. =) Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 01:10, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

UCSF press release here. Doc James (User:Jmh649) and User:Ocaasi went out there to SF a while back. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 01:13, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Please help out as well

There is some discussion on the talk page, for example about the point of curiosity on how to evaluate students' perceptions after the course. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 18:29, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Czech model

Team structure of the Czech Education Program. Simply substitue "ambassador" for "instructor" in this slide.

As previously mentioned, here's a picture of the Czech Education program, which I favor for its emphasis on the Wikipedian–Professor pairs (the slide calls them Instructor–Professor pairs). Thoughts? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:55, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, it is also all volunteer run and they have about 6 classrooms. That's why I think 1 full time WP:WEF employee makes sense. There are about 70 classrooms under the guidance of what will become the WEF. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes: although I am glad that our Czech program serves as a model for your future plans, I think that pure volunteering would not be sufficient for such a large number of classes. However, the team structure may remain the same. The coordinator is in charge of answering to teachers and assisting them and helping them to find local ambassadors. He/she cannot, however, train all the students in your 70 classrooms - that is too much even for an employee: the coordinator must serve as a "brain centre" making decisions and assisting everyone. --Vojtech.dostal (talk) 16:20, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Call for feedback on Welcome to Wikipedia brochure

(Please excuse cross-posting) Over the next few months, I will be overhauling the Welcome to Wikipedia brochure to better reflect what new editors need to know when learning how to contribute to Wikipedia. I'm hoping to get a wide variety of feedback on what people like and do not like about the current brochure so I can create a new version that reflects the best knowledge we collectively have about outreach to newbies. Please see more details and add your feedback here. -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 17:53, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

LiAnna Davis (WMF), thanks for posting here. Is there a time you would like to have this feedback in by? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:31, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors:, see outreachwiki:Welcome_to_Wikipedia_(Bookshelf)/2013_edition#Timeline_for_project for the timeline. :) -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 16:25, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. =) Here it is, for anyone feeling too lazy to click:

September 30–October 14: Community feedback on current version
October 15–21: Sage and LiAnna draft new version based on community feedback
October 21–November 15: Iterative text revisions with community

Thanks again. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:30, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

LiAnna Davis (WMF), could we trade? Could you give feedback on WT:ASSIGN and I'll reciprocate? =) Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 20:53, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: (I swear I'm not trying to pick on you today!) I'll be honest — I've been watching WP:ASSIGN and I think it's good for Wikipedians, who are used to policies that are giant walls of text and know how to read them. I think, however, a giant wall of text is not a good way to reach most professors or students. I'll note that we do physically mail both File:Instructor Basics How to Use Wikipedia as a Teaching Tool.pdf and File:The Essentials - Wikipedia Education Program US Canada.pdf (as well as other brochures) to professors who participate in the US and Canada program. Clearly I'm biased, since I did these brochures, but I think they do a good job of offering pretty much the same advice that WP:ASSIGN does but in a more reader-friendly format. -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 21:25, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. No worries. I've raised a lot of issues. You're still focusing on non-US and Canada programs, though, aren't you? Exclusively? I've developed a quiz to supplement WP:STUDENTS (just that section) for professors to give to students. Isn't that text digestible, if I tell students to read just it, though? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 21:30, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Will the education program give me money to make videos? ;-) Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 21:31, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I focus almost exclusively on non-US and Canada programs, yes — but since the US/Can program is the largest, it often gives me ideas about what kinds of support materials (like the brochures) I need to develop (and then help facilitate translation and localization of). And (of course, as you've seen today), I am involved in large discussions of overall program strategy. -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 23:16, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation update September update

The last update on the Wiki Education Foundation (WEF) was in August. Just a couple of notes this time, with more to come in a couple of weeks, I hope. We have opened a bank account and expect to have the grant from the Grant Advisory Committee (GAC) deposited soon. We will soon, I hope, be hiring a program manager, and are also looking for an executive director who can assist with fundraising.

Biosthmors suggested that it might be a good idea to run an RfC to get feedback on what the community would like to see the WEF do. I don't think an RfC is required for there to be feedback, though if others like that approach we should do it, but we definitely want input on what the WEF's goals and priorities should be. Any comments would be welcome, though after the current set of administrative tasks are completed I intend to come back here and ask again for input. I am selling my house and am very busy at work, so please excuse any delay in replying.

I'm going to skip posting a note about this update at the village pump because there's little content here; I hope to have more substantial news to report later this month and will post again then. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Mike, can I suggest that you do post at the Village Pump, and not merely because it's part of the terms of your grant, but also to remind people that the WEF exists, even if it has little to report. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 17:10, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:46, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, been busy with selling the house and have also been out of town; just saw this. I agree, and have posted over there, and won't omit that in the future even for minor updates. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:30, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Does the WEF have to hire an executive director? If a steady stream of funding is identified, what would the purpose of the ED be? Could this be a temporary position? Could it be something the volunteer board does (setting up fundraising)? Should better fundraisers be identified and recruited to the volunteer board? Those are just some of my ignorant thoughts. Best. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 11:59, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: Good question. We have consulted with several people with fundraising experience and they said that we really need an FTE working on this. The time, expertise, and networks required are not things that a volunteer board alone can provide. Pjthepiano (talk) 16:18, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Would it be possible to name the shortlist or the planned program manager? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:01, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: We will have more on this soon. Pjthepiano (talk) 16:18, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Does the WEF have to spend all of the money in 1 fiscal year? Could they not stretch it out over 2 or 3 years? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 11:16, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: The grant we received from the GAC is scheduled to provide 7 months of funding. If we find some savings then we could possibly stretch it a bit longer (although we'd have to request approval from the GAC in order to do that). However, there is just not enough money there to stretch it out over 2 or 3 years. We will need another injection of funding by March. Pjthepiano (talk) 16:18, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Couldn't the terms of the grant be re-negotiated with the agreement of the m:Grant Advisory Committee? I imagine, given the recent Signpost coverage and statement from Sue Gardner about grantmaking, that this would be a possibility. User:Sue Gardner? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:56, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

We could try, I'm sure, if we think that's the right thing to do. The board hasn't met to decide this yet, so that's possible. My personal opinion is that we should go ahead with the Executive Director hire, and that that person should focus mostly on fund-raising. I think not building in a fundraising role to a nonprofit right from the start is planning to fail. Fundraising isn't something that you can do effectively in your spare time, and the program manager won't have time. The board can contribute a little time but we all have full-time jobs and in any case will need to spend the time we have on fiscal and program oversight, governance issues such as elections, and administrative work such as payroll, and taxes. I think an employee who focuses on fundraising is necessary if we're to succeed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:27, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Mike, for that response. I've made my preference clear on the regional ambassador mailing list, at least, that I favor the Czech Education Program model, and I currently perceive an ED as a potential bureaucratic (and wasteful) threat to that efficient model. I understand you're looking strategically at the long-term viability of the program. But if you don't have an ED, how much longer can you stretch the money instead of it being limited to 7 months? Also, you would save the board's time in looking for an ED. Or would you? Is there a shortlist for that position? Is it already "known" within the board who that job is going to? If so, who is it? Will the community have the ability to see a job application criteria for that position as well as the program manager? If the WMF had a slimmed down and highly efficient WEF, why wouldn't they give it funding again? If the Education Program improved and became more popular, why wouldn't another foundation happily throw money at it? After a secure stream of funding was found by the ED, what would they do? What should an ED do other than fundraising? I wouldn't really want them communicating with professors, except in rare circumstances. There should only be one WEF contact person to professors if we're going to follow the Czech model, in my opinion. Why can't the board just recruit more fundraising talent? How much, exactly, is the grant for in terms of dollars for the 7 month period? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:49, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:COI disclosure, I would consider working for the WEF, if the grant terms were aligned with what I perceive to be in the best community interest. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 11:36, 7 October 2013 (UTC) (I might consider it one day, but today is not the day. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 09:43, 8 October 2013 (UTC))

I could be convinced that an ED makes sense, but I just don't see it making good sense at the moment, given my experience with education-related things so far. User:The Interior had a previous Wikipedian seat on the board. I wonder what they think. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 11:41, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

And for clarity, some of those questions above were rhetorical. I just think they're natural questions for community members to have who try to look at the Education Program and the WEF and then think about what might be done or what might be best as we're moving forward. Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 20:42, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, they're fair questions. I can't be precise about all of them but here are my takes on the answers. I would guess that we could roughly double the length of the PM role to 14 months if we have no ED; the ED salary was projected to be higher, so it could be longer than that, and of course the GAC would have to approve the change. Yes, we'd save the board's time in looking for an ED, but there's no dollar cost in that. There's no shortlist; we received one unsolicited resume via word of mouth and would do an open search if we go ahead with the ED -- there's no name in mind (that I'm aware of, anyway). Yes, the community will see the job descriptions for both positions. "...why wouldn't the WMF fund it again": well, maybe they would, but their plan was precisely to spin off this program to avoid funding it directly so this is certainly not guaranteed. And if another foundation wants to throw money at us, we'll deal with that when it happens -- I like your optimism but I don't think we can plan for that. Re the ED's tasks: I don't think fundraising is ever permanently secure, but there are plenty of administrative tasks and back office work. The board hasn't agreed a job description yet so I don't want to be specific since others might not agree, but there are many ideas for things the WEF could or should do and the ED would be the central role in trying to get them done. Whether they should talk directly to professors would depend on their skills and background, but I wouldn't want to hire someone we couldn't trust to talk to professors. By "recruit more fundraising talent" do you mean as an unpaid board member? If so, yes, we're thinking about that, but that doesn't guarantee funds; unpaid labour is rarely as effective as paid, though in the non-profit world there's certainly a track record for board fundraising. In our case, though, the board is not made up of people with that background and I don't see that as a sound plan for solving funding, though it's something that has been discussed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Mike. I think that's a great reply. That helps me wrap my mind around where things are. I'd like to add a few things. Yes, I want the board to recruit more volunteer fundraising talent, even though that's not a reliable plan for securing actual funding. And I agree that there's no dollar cost to looking for an ED search, but there is an opportunity cost, and the board has limited volunteer time. I'm interested in hearing specific examples of what an ED might do other than making sure money is flowing in that a program manager couldn't do. I definitely want any potential future ED to have the skills to talk to professors. I just favor the Czech model, where there is one central person that serves as the coordinator, and whose job it is to facilitate the creation and maintenance of strong professor–Wikipedian relationships (as far as I understand it or imagine it to be in its idealized state). When this happens, I think good assignments will be a more natural result. I've emailed the Wikimedia Czech person who presented at the 2013 education conference in Milan to ask them to post their diagram to Wikimedia Commons. It's a simple diagram that draws out the logic of their program in one simple slide. A picture would enrich this discussion, in my opinion. The reason I said the bit about the ED not speaking to professors (generally speaking), was also an implicit criticism of the current Education Program model. But I'll go ahead and made it explicit. The Regional Ambassadors occasionally receive emails asking us to approve a certain list of professors with the user right without being given any context. I find this sort of email to be a powerfully demoralizing and demotivating statement, and one that says this: the powers that be [WMF] do not trust you to talk with professors. I sincerely hope the WEF will take a radically different approach, an approach that proves they will trust certain community members to establish relationships with professors in WEF's name. Will the WEF work to facilitate strong Wikipedian–professor relationships? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 11:59, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

And who is User:JMathewson (WMF)'s boss (or bosses, or project leads, etc.) at the WMF, by the way? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:09, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to User:Mdennis (WMF) to pointing my way to wmf:staff. (I've previously requested that all English Wikipedia WMF accounts link to the profiles of their superiors or people they take direction from.) It appears that Jami currently gets direction from Rod Dunican, or User:Rdunican (Public Policy). I thought Rod was Jami's supervisor, eventually, but I didn't know it was an immediate boss–worker relationship, if it is. I notice Rod's name has appeared on the WP:WEF meeting minutes. Maybe he could share his perspective about my impression that I received from those emails? I'm curious if the WEF would confirm if Rod was or was not the one person who sent in an unsolicited resume via word of mouth? Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:07, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors:, it's inappropriate (and I believe against American employment law) for anyone to comment about specific candidates for any position. But I can confirm that I have not put myself forward as a candidate for the Wiki Ed Foundation executive director position. Rdunican22 (talk) 23:00, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for replying Rod (Rdunican22). Did you get my email? As for the appropriateness, I took a look at m:Talk:Executive Director Transition Team and I get a completely different impression there. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 23:21, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

And yes, I have been given the opportunity by WMF staff to talk with professors to introduce them to Wikipedia on Skype before, so it's not like that never happens. I appreciate those opportunities. That's why I volunteer. I don't want to send what could be interpreted as an inaccurate message by cherry-picking. But to me, a central focus of the WEF should be ensuring that someone who is very well-versed in how Wikipedia works, in terms of knowing how to produce valued content, whether it is WEF staff or volunteers, should be collaborating with the professors on the design of their course (especially with new instructors).

So when an email is sent asking the Regional Ambassadors to assign course instructor rights, who is the person helping them set up the assignment and course page? I don't know, under the current system. The course page is the natural place where collaboration should happen. I think good professors allow their assignment to evolve over time, and having a course page that can be edited and specifies all the requirements, instructions, and grading is a good transparent mechanism to facilitate this process of course improvement. Existing course pages can also be copy-pasted, to help out new professors.

I think the current system does not place enough value on helping professors write out a meaningful course page. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 16:27, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

A better process for crafting a good course page — one that facilitates making relevant decisions and starting from good examples without just blindly saving boilerplate, and also makes it easy to collaborate on assignment design — would definitely be a step forward. It's something I've brainstormed before with Rod, Jami and LiAnna, and it's part of the longer-term goals for a redesigned course page system. Jami may pop in to give her thoughts, but I know that having the types of instructor-ambassador interactions you're asking for (instead of, for example, either WMF staff or no one at all having that sort of interaction with an instructor) has been the goal the US and Canada program has been moving towards for a while now. It's hard to get there, for a variety of reasons, but I hope and expect to see more progress on that as WEF gets rolling.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 16:54, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Sage. Might I suggest that if I didn't feel the duty, for Wikipedia's sake, of cleaning up the mess generated by your superiors, then the community might be able to actually deliver better course pages like Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/UCSF Elective 2013, which has generated press in the New York Times and The Atlantic? I know you can't answer that, because I'm directing it to Rod in this case, but still. All my points remain. I hope to see a cogent WEF reply to nearly every single one. I'd like to know how the WEF will enable and empower the community. Also, has Rod stopped attending board meetings? I don't know why I'm not allowed to attend board meetings but Rod is. I will be in the United States, EST time from October 10th through 20th and I'd like to request to sit in on a board meeting, if one is occurring then. Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:11, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Biosthmors, it looks to me from the above as if you're connecting Sage with the WEF in some way -- is that correct? Sage works in the education area on-wiki and has certainly had a lot of involvement in education, but isn't connected with the WEF at all. Not to say you shouldn't ask him what the WEF should be doing; it's a good question for anyone who cares about this area. To your questions: the board invites various people to the board meetings depending on the agenda; we've had Garfield Byrd, the WMF CFO, in the meetings, as well as our attorneys, Rod, Asaf Bartov from the GAC, and others. The meetings aren't open attendance. If you think they should be, I will raise that at the next board meeting -- one of my roles as a Wikipedian on the board is to represent the community -- but it would carry more weight the more people express agreement with you that the meetings should be open. Personally I don't think they should be; even aside from the need for confidential discussions about topics such as salary, I think the board should have a private discussion space. I'd like to hear from others on this point. Your other question is how will the WEF will enable and empower the community. I can give a couple of unsurprising answers to that but I'm far more interested in having the community tell the WEF what the answers should be to that. Remember that the WEF won't control much -- the Education Program doesn't belong to the WEF, it belongs to the community, and it will run the way the community wants it run. The WEF is a resource. What do you think it should do? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:58, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry for creating that confusion, but no, I was speaking to the WEF after I was done speaking to Sage. Sure, please make the request for some sort of increased level of openness to the community. I sent an email to Diana asking for permission as well. Many of my ideas are already recorded in the archives, and above, but I could incorporate them into an RfC for the community on these questions. Maybe we could work together on that. But I think that yes, there should be at least someone from the community who is trusted to listen in. If I remember correctly, User:SlimVirgin made that request at some time. I look forward to hearing more details on my other questions. Since you're a community member, what do you think it should do in terms of how many employees it should have over the next 2 years, for example? Might the WEF reveal who the one person was that sent in the unsolicited resume via word-of-mouth for the ED position? Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:18, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually, please put it on the WEF agenda to define the bounds for what is negotiable and non-negotiable in terms of community input. Can the community nix the idea of an ED, for example? What is the board willing to act on? That's what I want to know from the WEF, as a first priority. That is necessary knowledge before one crafts an RfC. When is the next board meeting, by the way? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:35, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

And because I've raised so many points already, I withdraw my request to sit in on the next board meeting for now. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:36, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

As a second point of priority (and as I've politely requested), I would like for Diana (a board member of the WP:WEF) to share her course design details at User:DStrassmann/Assignment to facilitate community input. She shared the document with me by email and asked for my feedback. I responded that I would much rather her share it on Wikipedia. (I haven't opened the document yet.) I think the document should be shared openly, because I think it would create the kind of productive communication, collaboration, and mutual trust that both the community and professors should be having on course pages already. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 12:43, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I have already shared all the assignments on my course page. They've been up there for weeks. All I sent you, @Biosthmors was a minor revision to an assignment that has already been posted.DStrassmann (talk) 18:50, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, DStrassmann, you are more awesome than I've realized. Can I please (when I get the chance) copy and paste all of them into your user space where they can be discussed for next semester? Do you welcome Wikipedians boldly editing those documents, which I hope you will use for your Spring 2014 classes? I see there are 10 documents at Education Program:Rice University/Poverty, Justice, Human Capabilities Section 1 (Fall 2013). Do both courses have identical documentation? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 19:16, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors. I have made heavy use of Education Program materials and advice from Wikipedians, and am especially grateful to my course online ambassador Mike Christie (who deserves no blame for any errors on my part). And while I continue to welcome advice and input, assignment design needs to balance what is said in class, what is presented by campus ambassadors, the prior experience of the students, the course subject matter, and other course requirements. I revise my assignments every semester, and do it immediately after grading the assignments that I've received from students, when I have a clear sense of what needs to be made more clear to them, etc. and after I have received feedback from students about what parts might be clarified and have more experience from our on wiki interactions. Edits by people who are not interacting with my students would simply not be a best practice, since they may not understand the reason for specific features of the assignments. I've shared my assignments with several other professors, who have adapated them for their courses, and in which they have made alterations that take into account the different skill levels and backgrounds of their students. What works well for Rice undergraduates in an interdisciplinary set of courses may appropriately be revised for students with different overall skills, in different disciplines,or levels of study. That said, I welcome suggestions, but would prefer to get them in a list or for people to request and edit a word document using track changes of my latest versions (which I haven't posted to my course page since they were not what I assigned). If anyone feels that my assignments might be useful to be developed as examples for other professors, I'd be more than willing to discuss a possible process for that, though right now I'm pretty heavily committed and would prefer to wait until the semester is over. DStrassmann (talk) 01:08, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: I'm not sure precisely what you're referring to with respect to "cleaning up the mess generated by [my] superiors", but if you mean the current system for setting up course pages, you'll have to put most of the blame for that on me. The sample syllabus was initially put together by me, LiAnna Davis and Annie Lin based on assignment plans for previous successful classes and adjusted to try to head off the biggest problems we were seeing in the first term of the Public Policy Initiative. It was updated more recently by me, LiAnna and Jami. Jami and I have talked together about the shortcomings of the current way it gets served up as part of the wizard, which doesn't make it easy enough to pick and choose which elements to build off of and doesn't make it easy to customize or collaborate on the assignment design. That said, I'm loathe to add more complexity to the wizard. If the "mess" is instead the processes of bringing on new instructors, I'll just say that trying to make that a scalable, efficient, community-driven process that doesn't require WMF staff is a central thread of the history of the education program up until now. Although I've never been the main person in charge of that effort, I've tried to help where I could; if I had an answer that was much better than what Annie, and then Jami, along with the assorted groups of volunteers were trying, I certainly would have shared it. Instead, what I've seen (and contributed to where I could) is incremental improvement.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:30, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback Sage. Usually you just comment on small-picture technical details, so it's nice to hear you say more about the big-picture. It's nice to learn how some of these decisions are made. I'm not pointing to you and saying you suck, because I know you don't suck. You're awesome. I do think the current system is sucky, and I'm trying to figure out why. Might it be possible that the current default actively discourages Wikipedian–Professor collaboration in pairs by making professors think that it's easy to run a course and they don't need help? Maybe a blank page would be better at getting this point across. That's the big point I'm driving home. I don't think the current structure is giving us the results I think the community wants. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:40, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

And I say the mess generated by your superiors because ultimately it is them who have responsibility for what I perceive to be a sucky program, do they not? Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:46, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I try to stay out of decision-making and big-picture discussions on-wiki (in contrast to my role during the Public Policy Initiative) precisely because they are things that need to be decided by the community. I don't want to get in the way of what the WEF is doing, and my job is specifically *not* to work on things that are particular to English Wikipedia. Systematically and effectively encouraging/facilitating/ensuring collaborative relationships between experienced editors and instructors is really hard. In my experience, it is definitely not the case that starting from a blank course page helps with this problem (and it would un-solve a lot of the problems that led us to set up things like the wizard in the first place). I do think there is a lot of potential for software and on-wiki structure to help—both with encouraging the kinds of rich communicative relationships that help classes succeed, and with giving more and better automatic guidance for instructors trying to set up a class and design a good assignment. It's actually a set of problems that is relevant to outreach efforts more broadly, and we've started talking with the Growth team (the ones who built guided tours and other features) about what a more general replacement for the current extension might look like; on the tech side, these issues are part of that problem space.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 14:19, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. That helps. And I'd only agree that it is hard unless the person who is hired to speak with the professors is not an experienced editor. I think that should be a fundamental qualification for the person who is seeking to be the program manager, and who will communicate with professors extensively. I think that's a big part of what is currently missing. Since I'm being quite frank here, I wonder who made the hire or the decision to place Jami where she's been, seeing that she's not an experienced Wikipedian. (And who hired that person, and who hired that person... ;-) Sorry Jami, I emailed you to let you know I like you. I'm just trying to speak to what I perceive are the relevant community values. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:30, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

User:Mike Christie, to answer your question, I think the person who is hired by the WEF as the program manager should ~~be a Wikipedian. How many Wikipedians does the WEF have on their short list?~~ Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:36, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

...help professors design their own tailored and relevant course pages for their students to really use. And as long as they have good on-wiki communications with editors who know how to develop content (which I think Jami is currently divorced from), then I have no problem with her having the job. =) I'm sorry that came off the wrong way. Jami I wasn't calling you incompetent. I just don't think whoever has been telling you what to do has been telling you the right things to do, but then again, maybe a lot of thought went into those decisions I'm unaware of. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 15:47, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Every course page for every class should be an individualized work of art. Can that be the mission statement of the WEF? ;-) Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 15:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: I'm trying to understand what you think is "sucky" about the program in the US and Canada. From my team's perspective, the goals we've had for the program come out of our theory of change; the central purpose of the education program is to expand and improve Wikipedia's content. I think Jami is doing a phenomenal job at the goals we have for the program in the US and Canada. I'm wondering if our difference in opinion is actually in different goals for what the program should be. So I'm curious: What do you think the goals of the Wikipedia Education Program US and Canada should be? (I would be happy to talk with you about this via Hangout or Skype rather than text chat if that would be easier.) -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 18:42, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for asking LiAnna. The short story is that I think we're failing at realizing the "Every course page for every class should be an individualized work of art" mission. And I'd say that's because we're not establishing good collaborations to negotiate between classroom values and Wikipedian values on course pages that should set the stage for reproducible classroom assignments (professor retention). Are there any numbers on professor retention in the program? Do you think there is room for improvement there? Sure a video chat sometime might be fantastic. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 18:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: Your vision of having more Ambassadors work closely with professors in this way is spot on with the WEF and with the current WEP team. Giving the sort of guidance to enable each new professor to create a successful assignment each term is a lot of work and takes a lot of time, and volunteer time is precious. With 70+ classes and about 6 active Regional Ambassadors who have the time and interest to work with more than a few professors, there's a gap in capacity for assignment design help. I fill that gap myself, but since many English Wikipedia community members were not comfortable with a WMF staff member granting user rights, I cannot give the Instructor user right to those profs that I work with. I sincerely apologize that you felt demoralized and demotivated by the emails I send out requesting people grant the user right. I absolutely trust you and the other RAs to talk with professors, but I hope that trust is a two-way street. I trust that RAs grant user rights to professors they've worked with, and I hope that you can trust I request user rights for people I've worked with. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 20:32, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining that Jami. I trust that you work well with professors. I can't say I trust that you faithfully represent a Wikipedian's point of view with professors. So how about this? Could I suggest having a developed course page in the user space, such as at User:Ituta/Course page, that way Regional Ambassadors can trust but verify? Then we could also jump in, propose changes, and then when a course page is approved (much the same way Online Ambassadors are approved), then we'll grant the user right. There's no reason to give out the course right if the community doesn't agree with the course design/grading etc. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 20:39, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: Where specifically do you draw that line for who is Wikipedian enough to represent Wikipedians' points of view? -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 21:01, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

One who helps develop course pages that the community supports. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 21:06, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: Sorry, can you clarify? Do you mean Course Pages or assignments? I'm a little confused about whether you actually care about the content on the Course Page or if you mean the guidance the students get and the work they do. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 21:13, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Course pages should explicitly state the assignments, in my opinion, as Diana's course page does, and the course page I designed does. Could I suggest having a developed course page in the user space, such as at User:Ituta/Course page, that way Regional Ambassadors can trust but verify? Then we could also jump in, propose changes, and then when a course page is approved (much the same way Online Ambassadors are approved), then we'll grant the user right. There's no reason to give out the course right if the community doesn't agree with the course design/grading etc. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 21:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

@Biosthmors: I completely disagree with the mission being to create course pages that are individualized works of art. I believe the mission should be to add quality content to Wikipedia. Diana Strassmann has a lot of responsibilities in her life, and I doubt she will ever prioritize learning enough wiki code to put her assignment on wiki. Instead, I think she prioritizes identifying content gaps related to feminist economics, helping students find good references for their articles, and giving feedback on their articles, and I think that's exactly how it should be. Course pages are mostly a tool to track student user names and to have information about in general what students are being asked to do. What matters at the end of the day is whether students are adding quality content to Wikipedia, not whether their course page is a work of art.

Re: professor retention, see the notes and slides from our Mid-Year Review with Sue and Erik, where Jami talked about retention. The short answer to your question is that we're doing well, but we could do better; that's the kind of progress we are strategically focusing on.

Could course pages be better? Yes. But here's my thought: With our existing resources (volunteers, Jami), I'd rather have 75 classes operating at 90% of their potential than 20 classes operating at 95% of their potential. Something has to give, and I'd rather have a larger impact on Wikipedia with more students adding quality content to articles than fewer students adding content (or having dramatically more staff) and having nice course pages. Certainly it's up to the WEF to decide what their mission will be (and for the record, I have never been involved with the WEF aside from being on the selection committee to pick the original Working Group), but in my personal opinion, their mission should be to improve Wikipedia content through supporting the use of Wikipedia as a teaching tool in classrooms in the US and Canada. -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 20:58, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

LiAnna, I think you're missing my point. A quality and individualized course page is just an indication that a professor is prepared to run a class on Wikipedia that should generate OK quality content. The same way an Online Ambassador application works. We vote for people based upon their contributions. I helped design Education Program:Saint Louis University/Signal Transduction (SP13), and it helped produce quality contributions. I'm currently experiencing problems with Education Program:Georgia Institute of Technology/Introduction to Neuroscience (Fall 2013) because students aren't using the course page. I got an email today from a student after I had already told them once to use the WikiProject Neuroscience talk page for that sort of inquiry. I wasn't upset, it just shows that some classes ignore the course page to the community's own peril. I will have a meeting this week to try and bridge this gap to work on the course page for the Fall 2014 class. Other classrooms actually use a course page like they should (Diana's class is an excellent example, which as I mentioned above, is already completely on wiki). See WT:MED for more recommendations I have for her course. Why would Wikipedians vote for who should represent Wikipedia as Online Ambassadors but then we don't get a chance to vote on classroom assignments? I think that is incredibly unfair to the community. I think that thinking that Course pages are mostly a tool to track student user names and to have information about in general what students are being asked to do is just planning for failure. We had a similar kind of discussion in Milan and I agree with you that I'd rather have 75 classes operating at 90% of their potential than 20 classes operating at 95% of their potential, though those were nowhere near the ballpark of the numbers that were thrown out, during our conversation, if I remember correctly. So I see that as a straw man-like comment. =) Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 21:21, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Awww man. The first line under the link you gave uses the "wall of text" criterion. I hate that metric. Who at WMF thinks that is a valid metric? Dern... Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 21:35, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

The big difference between classes and Online Ambassadors is that Online Ambassadors work on wiki, and classes work in "real life"/"meatspace" (ugh, I hate those terms, but that's another story). Professors will give assignments, talk to students, etc., and it's unrealistic to expect all of that to also happen on wiki. I don't think the professor's ability to create a course page on wiki indicates at all whether the students will generate good content. I think how well the professor teaches, how much they care about student learning, and how much time they put into the class (all of which happen in "real life") are all much more important than whether they created a sufficiently detailed course page.

Wikipedia has an open editing model, which means that no, you do not have the right to vote on whether someone can contribute or not. We try through our program to guide assignments to be constructive contributions. If you put up a barrier like making professors create a course page before they can get the course instructor right, and then making them create the course page again after they've passed your vote, how many professors will actually do that? What possible motivation would a professor have to do their assignment in the open with input from experienced editors when they can just do their assignment without publicizing anything on wiki and get away with it? If you think the professors will just not do an assignment, you're being naive. They will do it, just under the radar. I'm confident there's tens or maybe even hundreds of classes operating on the English Wikipedia each term, and we just don't know about them unless an editor happens to stumble across them or if we bring them on board through our program.

Let me give you a concrete example: I don't think you were copied on the exchange I had about the UCSF class with the UCSF PR person and James Heilman, in which I told them I was pretty certain from my past experiences that there would be at least one prior med school class that had done this assignment. James was convinced he'd have known about it if there had been, so they released the press release claiming UCSF as the first. Once it went out, there was a University of Texas at San Antonio med school instructor who got upset because he'd done five years ago, and even published a journal article about it. This was the most recent example, but I've had many people say they've been doing classroom assignments for years, but didn't know WP:SUP or our program existed, and had no course pages. More barriers to participation is a bad thing, because I'm sure it will just drive more Wikipedia assignments underground, where the professors won't bother to work with our guidelines at all, and students may or may not contribute content that helps Wikipedia.

I've already written a lot (hello ironically large wall of text!), and I think you and I might just have to agree to disagree on the relative importance of detailed course pages. But I want to close by saying that while you think it's unfair that you can't vote on whether an assignment is good or not, I think it's unfair to categorize Jami in particular as someone who you don't trust to develop a course page that the community supports. Jami has mentored more than 50 classes who have contributed great content to Wikipedia in the last two years. She spends probably more than 50 hours a week thinking about the best way to improve Wikipedia through classroom assignments. She has more than 2,000 edits on her staff account and more than 800 on her personal account. I have heard her talk to professors about Wikipedia policies and encourage them to do good assignments that benefit Wikipedia. If she's not someone trustworthy enough to help professors create good assignments, I don't know who is. She's truly one of the greatest assets this program has. -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 22:45, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

LiAnna, forgive me if I have misstated myself, but I consider you saying Wikipedia has an open editing model, which means that no, you do not have the right to vote on whether someone can contribute or not a complete misrepresentation of my position. Why do you think that's what I'm saying? I'm simply suggesting that it should be Jami's job to write out, on Wikipedia, what kind of instruction the professor will be giving the students before Regional Ambassadors decide to give the course instructor right. This could be as simple as copying and pasting. I feel like I'm running into a wall by suggesting, as a volunteer, that the WMF might do anything slightly differently (while I also suffer the consequences of having my position misrepresented). :-/ Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 22:58, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I apologize, then, as I clearly didn't understand what you were asking — I think asking Jami to add ~~a few sentences~~ detailed information about what the assignments professors are going to be doing when she requests user rights for them is perfectly reasonable. (I thought you were asking the professors to create course pages in their sandboxes like the one you'd linked to; that was my misunderstanding, so I'm glad you clarified.) Jami, is that something you can do in the future? -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 23:21, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I think a few sentences is also a misrepresentation. ;-) Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 23:28, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

OK, I updated. :) -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 23:35, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

We can plan on that moving forward. I still have to disagree with one premise that a professor should only get the user right if they've planned their assignment with one of us. Some professors are unwilling to work with someone (or, typically, just don't ever respond), but I still think it's drastically better for us to have a space for their students to enroll, so we can proactively try to work with them during the assignment. I think that beats "under the radar" any day, and some professors just aren't responsive when it comes to an attempt to guide them through the process. I will give any information that I can when it comes to requesting user rights for professors to whom I've spoken, though. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 23:43, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

From my limited experiences, I generally get the fuzzy impression that if the professor doesn't collaborate on the course page, they also "send the message", somehow, to the students that they shouldn't collaborate with the community. What's wrong with initially pitching it like this: "I'd love to get you the course instructor right immediately, but a group of trusted Wikipedia editors will need to check off on your plans first, and they might request some changes". Then you're leveraging the user right to the benefit of the community. If they balk, then perhaps Wikipedia isn't the place for them? I do want to avoid "under the radar" classes as well. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 00:10, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

That's how it does usually work (though I would not agree with you that a professor who doesn't collaborate can't run a successful class). The point is, SO many professors will back off from this step, meaning they won't create Course Pages for us to follow their student contributions. Even the professors who are most eager to get feedback on their assignment and advice on working within the existing infrastructure on Wikipedia still won't let others approve their classroom assignment or decide what's best for their students. I'm telling you that we've done something like this before, and it worked ok with the 15 professors who were willing to go through with it. With the rest, we had to start making adjustments and "letting them participate" anyway because we were able to support their students better if we could at least know who they were. JMathewson (WMF) (talk) 00:44, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to learn more. Maybe we could talk sometime soon. But I never said a professor who doesn't collaborate can't run a successful class. So... you know. ;-) And your argument for tracking assumes that because a user right is granted when a course is running that a course page will necessarily be created and all students will enroll. What is the actual loss ratio, though? And to me, your statement that Even the professors who are most eager to get feedback on their assignment and advice on working within the existing infrastructure on Wikipedia still won't let others approve their classroom assignment or decide what's best for their students comes off as impossible to be 100% true. How can you say that as a fact? When I have designed course pages with instructors, I "approve" of what they do. It's an active negotiation. I think I've done exactly what you posit is impossible to do. And I don't grasp your last two sentences. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 01:01, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

One thing I learned from Jon Murray was that looking at the student's interaction with Wikipedia did not give me an accurate understanding of the class. The more I work with the education program, the more I realize that course design is a real and complex skill and that I don't have any background in it. So despite my knowledge of Wikipedia, I would hesitate to suggest to any professor that I should approve the overall assignment. What I can do, and have done, is to point out to professors the (unintended) negative consequences of elements of their course design. I don't have any authority over the professor to force them to change the design, and I don't want that authority; instead I try to build a relationship with them where they trust me as the expert in my field, which is Wikipedia. I suspect you're saying something along the same lines as this -- is that correct?

On another point, I like your idea of detailed course pages, but I don't believe it will happen as a general rule, and I don't see how to make it a requirement. (In fact, of course, we can't make anything a requirement of running a class on Wikipedia; we can only make requirements to formally join the EP, assuming the EP has enough benefits to make it worth while for a professor to meet those requirements.) All we can do is come up with best practices, and those need to be identified both by discussion, as is happening here, and also by reference to past classes, looking for correlations between what's worked and the success of the class. Sage can probably provide the link to the study I'm half-remembering: wasn't there a statistical analysis of this sort done earlier this year that found little correlation between success and other factors? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:33, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Here is the analysis of success factors. Indeed, the results were disappointing in that they didn't give much in the way of specific factors to focus on to help classes be successful.--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 13:17, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Top 10 lists

We need a top 10 professor list and a top 10 course page list, in my opinion. Brian Carver would definitely make the professor list. Who else is generally awesome? I'm going to kick this off at WP:Student assignments. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 10:47, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

User:The Interior, you mentioned Wikipedia:Canada Education Program/Courses/Present/North American Environmental History (Tina Loo) from the archives, so I'm going to list it there. Got any others?! Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 13:07, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Before seeing this post here, I started a discussion at WT:Student assignments. I think there needs to be some consensus about what we say about who is or is not in a particular ranking. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:18, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

What's the purpose of this? If it's to recognize good work, a ranking isn't really necessary—sends the wrong message. czar ♔ 23:01, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you. I think that there could be value in having examples of best practices for other users to look at and learn from, but a "top ten" may be the wrong way to present it. Likewise, I see value in complimenting users who do good work, but again a list may be the wrong way. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:30, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Barnstars and kittens are great for this. I'm a huge fan of giving people kittens. Stuartyeates (talk) 07:04, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

A top 10 list would be great, if we had a real criteria for it. Think "Top 10 educators by number of articles their students have get FA status" or similar. Stuartyeates (talk) 07:03, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I've converted the budding info into prose. Discussion at WT:ASSIGN. Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 08:08, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

This "fish" gets a little nervous around "kittens" (joke), but I think that barnstars are actually a better approach than lists for commending good work. Whether as lists or as prose, I think that we need to have some sort of consensus of criteria for it, if we present it in Wikipedia's voice, and the focus then should be on showing readers what good practice is, as opposed to thanking someone for good work. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:36, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

That's a good point. If you don't mind, I'll just attempt one more time to wp:preserve the content by rewording the prose to make it softer and more criteria explicit. If you still don't like it, I'll remove it from the page and we can discuss further. No problem. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 20:22, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Just to add my two bits to this, my goal is to inspire students to become active Wikipedians and to learn how they can provide valuable missing content,making use of the course knowledge they gain and through their access to scholarly articles. There are many ways to judge quality of contributions (just as there are many valuable roles for Wikipedians). Setting up FA as a main goal would mean that students who simply add an important missing section or set of sections to an article may not gain the same sense of accomplishment for their work in Wikipedia as might those who write a featured article on an easier but less important topic. I prefer the multiple models and barnstars approach. DStrassmann (talk) 01:17, 10 October 2013 (UTC)