User talk:Wetman/archive10April2009

request for comment

Hi Wetman, in 2005 (sic!) you left a comment on List of rulers of Bavaria's talk page. Now -- after 3 years (!) -- I'm trying to change it. May I ask you to have a look, and comment -- how you like the first part, or if you've got some hints, how to improve this list. I would like to change the complete list into this wikitable style. Thank you very much. (Please answer here. I watch you now ,-) Greetings and happy editing. Sebastian scha. (talk) 22:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Splendid! I responded at Talk:List of rulers of Bavaria, but all I might be able to do to help is tweak your English, once you've completed this stage of your excellent transformation. The brief commentary formatted into the tables really helps readers retain their bearings, by adding some context. --Wetman (talk) 23:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Take a look at the list, please. I'm done with the wikitable, if you find some errs in the text or better structure, please fix it. Thank you. Sebastian scha. (talk) 11:29, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Perrault

Hello,

it seems that you have something to do with the importation of this image. Do you happen to know who was the painter? Herve1729 (talk) 11:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's a detail from the three-quarters length portrait by Philippe Lallemant, 1672. It was Lallement's morceau de reception at the Académie royale. Guess it's time to re-use it in a stub on Lallemant, eh. --Wetman (talk) 15:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Oop. Philippe Lallemand is the man.--Wetman (talk) 16:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Great, thanks. Herve1729 (talk) 07:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Your thoughts?

Hi Wetman, I don't know how much expertise you have on the subject, but I'd be interested in any contribution you might be able to make to the discussion here and following. Thanks, Paul August ☎ 21:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The Shepherd of Hermas

Hello, Wetman - Thank you for your work on The Shepherd of Hermas. Your opinion is appreciated here. At the beginning of the Hermas article, it states that the story is a "Christian" one. I have read "Hermas" and the story never uses the word "Jesus," "Christ," nor "Christian." Unfortunately I don't read Greek, so my conclusion is based on English translations. The term "Son of God" is used a few times, as was typical of some early 2nd C. Christians who also had not heard of Jesus Christ, but who also believed (and wrote that) he was never on Earth in human form (e.g. Athenagoras, Theophilus of Antioch, Tatian, and Marcus Minucius Felix in "Octavius"). So, my question to you is, should "Shepherd of Hermas" really be considered a "Christian" story, given that the terms Christ, Jesus, and Christians are never used therein? Perhaps it should be termed a "religious" story. (Is there a term for a believer in a "Son of God" who is not Christian?) Looking forward to your reply. -- Geĸrίtz (talk) 23:49, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

See Muratorian fragment for an early example of what was being considered canonical in the third century. It's a bit late in the day for Wikipedians to decide that the Shepherd of Hermas, apparently written by the brother of Pius, bishop of Rome, is "not Christian". Apparently you think it's not up to your standard for orthodoxy, but Wikipedia isn't a good outlet for personal essays. Just keep in mind, Wikipedia's just a readers' guide, and you won't stray far from mainstream. --Wetman (talk) 00:02, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, very well said. I'll check out the Muratorian fragment. Geĸrίtz (talk) 00:38, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Napoleon Diamond Necklace

Thanks for the comments on the talk page of the article. I've done my best to address them. I still find it odd that the curator of the Smithsonian's National Gem and Mineral Collection would make an error as blatant as that Catherine the Great one. I suspect he meant Catherine Pavlovna of Russia, but I can't find any other sources to confirm, so I've left it out for now. Let me know if you spot anything else! :) GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 18:20, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I do think you've got it! A reference like "Catherine of Russia" must have misled the curator. She married Wilhelm, King of Württemberg, in 1816 in Saint Petersburg. --Wetman (talk)

Thank you

May I please thank you for helping me with editing of Tide pool?--Mbz1 (talk) 20:36, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

You bet! it's an interesting subject. Weren't some of the rugged inhabitants of tide pools the first marine organisms to be kept successfuly in aquaria? That's a point that might be made in the article, underscoring their accomodations to stress.--Wetman (talk) 20:51, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I've never read about this.Yes, these animals got lots of stress all right, and only part of the stress comes from the sun, currents and the waves. We, humans bring even bigger stress to them, when we're walking over them, removing them from the pools to place in aquarium and so on. I, for example, read that workers from Monetary Bay Aquarium pick up tide pools animals to feed their sea otters.I often see that people dig for clams for their food and destroying everything on their way. What is surprising that in some places in California it is permitted to remove animals from tide pools for food.--Mbz1 (talk) 02:05, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Interior design!

Interior design is not my stongest point, in fact at home I'm allowed no input! So what is this [1] the site says its repro Baroque. I would have thought it was rococco meeting Louis XVIII with a hangover. - Any ideas of how it should be described. Giano (talk) 20:59, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

"Combining delicate rococo-revival with sculptural neo-baroque elements". Mother called this taste "Louie Ritz".--Wetman (talk) 21:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Is that the same as "belle epoque"? Giano (talk) 21:26, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah it would appear not, allthough I am confused as to why the late, and I'm sure much lamented, Queen Mary is epitomising Belle Epoque with her portrait. If it means what the article says it means - charming as I'm sure she was, QM was not known as a mover and shaker. Giano (talk) 21:35, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Santa Maria sopra Minerva

I did not understand your intention. Do you want me to or are you mad at me? I live in Rome, and though I have not visited it, I have passed many times a church dedicated to the souls of purgatory, that is gothic in its external structure as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knight746 (talk • contribs) 22:27, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The other gothic church of Rome

http://www.romasegreta.it/prati/sacrocuoredelsuffragio.htm

Here is a site on the church with a picture —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knight746 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Excellent. Thank you. I'll fix the text and add the footnote about this obscure Gothic Revival church, (built 1890-1917) in a footnote myself, then.--Wetman (talk) 22:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)!

Division of Altenburg

Thanks for your help on the Division of Altenburg article. If you know of any more sources or anything else we can add to the article, that would help a lot. I just found it one day and did some quick research to expand it from the stub that it was but I'm interested in it now. Also if you know any German sources I'm here in Germany for the time being and can try to look them up here. Thanks --Banime (talk) 12:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

My two little explanatory footnotes pretty much exhausted my usefulness, I'm afraid.--Wetman (talk) 15:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks anyway, it helped me at least! --Banime (talk) 15:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Hotel Del Coronado

• Wetman... Thank you for your recent edits on the Hotel del Coronado page. Your input and revisions are greatly appreciated. Could you please take an overview look at the article and offer any suggestions for other improvements. I'm somewhat new at this, and am eager to see this article improved. Again, thanks. Regards --- Ljmajer (talk) 23:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't edit the last paragraphs, about the renewed Coronado of today, because they sounded too much like a brochure rather than an encyclopedia article. So I concentrated on the history parts. Perhaps you could tone down the "infomercial" material towards the end. IOtherwise, it's an interesting article about an interesting place.--Wetman (talk) 00:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

That's the exact parts I didn't touch yet either. Most of my work, the past two days has been on the historical aspect, and a brief rewording of the intro paragraph. I was hesitant to rework the last section, because it starts to delve into minutia about future plans and restaurants that may go under next week. If you were to provide an assessment on everything but the "Hotel Today" section (history, footnotes, photos, infobox...), would it still be assessed as a start... C... or what. Thanks again. It's always nice to have a second set of eyes. -- Ljmajer (talk) 05:33, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh I don't know how anything might be assessed, by the kind of person drawn to that role. Someone might assess its value or importance one way or the other. The question is, will it do as it stands, or does it need to be better? You are the only judge that you should be listening to...--Wetman (talk) 05:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Thanks again for your help. -- Ljmajer (talk) 06:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

You might enjoy this

as much as I did. Bülach fibula - I hope it's not a hoax. Johnbod (talk) 22:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Ach, runes! Rune my day! Scarcely one thing that can be said about 'em that isn't contended from some quarter, but "you, my lover, embrace me, leek! leek!" is quite an eccentric inscription indeed. You know about the soft-core erotic image under Queen Balthild's seal ring: not the kind of thing she expected to turn up publicly over a millennium later, I don't suppose... --Wetman (talk) 23:34, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I didn't - thanks for that. Just as well it didn't turn up before the canonization came through perhaps. Johnbod (talk) 09:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Antique furnture

I suppose you could not be tempted to put pen to paper (no pun intended) with Easing stool? Giano (talk) 22:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

At Wikipedia Close stool— the better term— was redirecting to commode, which is another euphemism, but is better used in the French sense of a chest of drawers often with cupboard doors. So, there's close stool for your convenience. --Wetman (talk) 01:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

[2] - Epousesquecido (talk) 03:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

You anticipated me, I had been meaning to see if we had him. Thanks Wetman. Giano (talk) 21:17, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup on Meagan Miller

Thanks for the extensive cleanup on Meagan Miller. I agree that it is not the greatest article, but I will admit that I know little about classical music and even less about opera. Any pointers in the right direction beyond the changes you have already made will be appreciated. Alansohn (talk) 20:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

You've made the right kind of start by simply reporting published commentary.--Wetman (talk) 23:16, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

North Sea

Hey. It's been a while but I finally went back over the North Sea article and am hoping to renominate it for GA shortly. As an active contributor to the serious improvements made a year or so ago, I'd like to invite you to take a fresh look at it, do any clean up or copy editing I've missed and generally think about how to make it better. Thanks -- Jieagles (talk) 08:27, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Scultpors (unknown)

Slightly more intelectual than my last request, does Ivan Leppe mean anything to you? Giano (talk) 14:34, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

PS: Mikhail Ivanovich Terebenev

It's at time like this one does wish Ghirlandajo had not been driven off. Giano (talk) 14:51, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

PPS:looks hopeful [3] Giano (talk) 14:53, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Last one: Apollon Alexandrovich Manuylov Giano (talk) 15:00, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

All utterly unfamiliar names to me, Giano. I miss Ghirlandajo too.--Wetman (talk) 22:24, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes me too, on both scores. They all sculpted statues for the Winter Palace, so one assumes they are better than I would be if confronted by a naked lady armed only with a hammer and chisel. I emailed Ghirlandajo - who knows perhaps it will be enough to tempt him back. Giano (talk) 22:32, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Italianate architecture

Can you take a look here[4] I would not have though that the Indiana State Capitol qualified or the Dutch looking house. Is the term more comprehensive in the States than in Europe? Giano (talk) 16:42, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that Beaux-Arts neo-Baroque, as in the Indiana State Capitol, is an Italianate style (when it's not imitating Mansart). In the U.S. "Italianate" covers anything 1840-1925 that's generically classicising but not a parthenon.--Wetman (talk) 22:22, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Architecture of Beth Hamedrash Hagadol

Hi Wetman,

I'm working on the Beth Hamedrash Hagadol (Manhattan, New York) article, and it was suggested that you might know of books that discuss its architectural features. Are you aware of any? Much thanks, Jayjg ^(talk) 05:24, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm not. David W. Dunlap, From Abyssinian to Zion: A Guide to Manhattan's Houses of Worship 2004, p. 22, merely says "Gothic Revival." I note in WPA Guide to New York 1939 (p.498) that "Beth Hamidrash Hagadol" is at 337 Sackman Street, Brownsville, Brooklyn (?) The histories of the congregation might have some quotable phrases to enlarge upon the laconic "Gothic Revival" of the National Register of Historic Places Register. Schneider & Herter also built Park East Synagogue. Adapting the article's text I'd say something like

"The building by the German-born architects Ernst Schneider and Henry Herter had been constructed ca 1850-53 as the Norfolk Street Baptist Church, [New York Architectural Images] forerunner of Riverside Church, [Dunlap 2004:22] in the pared-down version of Gothic Revival style that was preferred by low-church Protestant congregations, those that emphasize preaching over ritual; it was rendered even simpler by the removal of some of the original exterior decoration."

The comparable phase of Gothic Revival architecture in Britain is called "Commissioners Gothic" (see Waterloo church). The original congregation is also said to have been a "Welsh Chapel", which would implied Methodists, no?--Wetman (talk) 08:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

I started this - is there no Gotham Pevsner? My recollection of NY bookshops is of yards of books on the city, no doubt mostly repeating each other, but there must be rather more. Johnbod (talk) 17:25, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

There's the AIA Guide. As it's American not British, it is a committee production, with corporate and official emphasis, impersonal and shallow. My edition is aging, but I've not been inspired to replace it. --Wetman (talk) 18:40, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Mind if I include your text exactly as written in the article? Jayjg ^(talk) 23:01, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course not! Go for it. --Wetman (talk) 17:44, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

RE: beurre blanc

Dear Wetman, I so appreciated your comments about the history of beurre blanc sauce that I left you a response. __ yours, FilleHumide

(Wetman had remarked at Talk:Beurre blanc "The somewhat fade literary trope of the "invention" of a new dish when some ingredient was "forgotten" or unavailable, is perfectly standard legend-making in what passes for culinary history, where the credibility hurdles are set exceptionally low.")

Meare Pool

Thanks for your contribution. Are the changes I made to Meare Pool sufficient to resolve the questions you had? Derek Andrews (talk) 23:06, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

One's good, but I stil don't see how "Meare Pool originated by encroachment of the growth of raised peat bogs around it." I can understand how it would have been slowly reduced by encroachment of bog. You might help the statement convey better information by characterising the sub-Atlantic period "during the cooler, drier sub-Atlantic period" maybe, if that's correct. I hope you don't object to the commenting-out technique: it keeps the readers' version of the article from being disfigured, while it pinpoints the specific phrase that I think should be made clearer. --Wetman (talk) 23:41, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I've found another source & added an alternative wording based on it - is this better?— Rod ^talk 16:37, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

"Ponding up" gives such a good clear image that I'm glad I questioned the text.--Wetman (talk) 17:34, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Easter bonnet

I'm hoping we can work together to improve this article, which is specifically about a hat that has a certain cultural significance and a certain typical form. Somehow its definition is now at the end of the article instead of at the beginning. IMHO, the article needs to have references that apply directly to its content. The many peripheral references to Easter clothing don't mention the bonnet in any way, nor do they support the notion of "tail end." Or at least that's how I see them. "The self-consciously quaint "bonnet", which had been tongue-in-cheek euphemism for a hat for more than a generation, supplied Berlin with his rhyme" isn't supported by anything, and seems to be inappropriately derogatory original research. The same goes for doggerel later on. The infant school business isn't supported, either. Lou Sander (talk) 09:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I hope you will be able to recover your gaffe: the better sort of Wikipedia editor would never merely revert an edit that supplies some mainstream and referenced history in place of the jejune gesture towards "olden times", simply because they haven't read Wikipedia Bonnet and don't like the word "tail-end" applied to a tradition that is now traced in the article from the 1590s to Irving Berlin, who was not previously mentioned at Easter bonnet. If your personal research convinces you that there is a "typical form" for an Easter bonnet, I do recommend that you footnote your citation, for a start. If you can't recognize doggerel in the quoted almanac verse, which can scarcely be made to scan, I can't help you: the recognition that not all verse is poetry is a critical assessment of which many Wikipedia editors are capable. --Wetman (talk) 17:01, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Pointers

I recently wrote some articles since I have come back from my camping trip. Maybe if you have time you can look over William Munroe, the first American pencil maker. Others I have recently submitted to DYK are Amasa Holcomb and Jacob Earl Fickel and William Jay Bolton and Harrison Gray Dyar. Thanks. --Doug Coldwell ^talk 14:59, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Excellent tweaking and corrections. I can always count on you to make outstanding edits. Couple of questions that perhaps I don't understand and you might be able to clear up for me.

• Harrison Gray Dyar

My text: According to Munroe it was Dyar, not Morse, who erected the first real telegraph line at the race track in Long Island in 1826 and dispatched the first message ever sent.

Your text: According to Munroe it was Dyar, not Morse, who erected the first real and dispatched the first message ever sent.

In Concord Authors at Home By Albert Lane on page 33 it says: This may seem strange as the credit of this great discovery has been generally conceded to Prof. Morse, but it is true for Mr. Dyar erected his line at the race-cource on Long Island in 1826...

In The Story of Concord Told by Concord Writers By Josephine Latham Swayne on pages 241-2 it says: ...erected a telegraph line at the race-course in Long Island in 1826...

Would my original text be appropriate? Does it make sense to add back in my text of ...telegraph line at the race track in Long Island in 1826... Could be something I am not seeing here. Can you explain!?

I have as my DYK hook: …that Harrison Gray Dyar erected the first telegraph line and dispatched the first message over it ever sent, being designated by the U.S. Supreme Court as the real inventor of the telegraph?

FYI, this is where I got the wording "electric fluid" as I quoted from these sources.

Welcome back indoors! That was my snafu. Didn't intend that. I fixed that redlink I created with an article on Nehemiah Strong. --Wetman (talk) 23:01, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Added back that wording of the first real telegraph line at the race track in Long Island in 1826. All the other edits look excellent to me. Thanks for looking over my new articles.

• Curfew bell is a new article I just put up and submitted to DYK. --Doug Coldwell ^talk 21:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
• Henry Fitz, a new article on the first American to make refractor telescopes. --Doug Coldwell ^talk 00:25, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Rococo .... or should I say "roccoco"?

I'll be the first to admit there is no hope I will ever write an article about an architectural genre (the closest I come is some copy editing here and there), but it strikes me that there should be some agreement on how to spell the name of one of the better-known styles. Unfortunately, a quick websearch reveals that both spellings are used in books and magazines relating to architecture. You may wonder where I am going with this (sometimes I ramble on, feel free to ignore this interjection), but I do have a point. The Wikipedia article Rococo spells it one way in its title, and as roccoco in the very first word; indeed the two spellings are used interchangeably throughout the article. Now, it doesn't matter to me which way it is, but perhaps you and the other great architectural minds who watch this page might be so kind as to come to a consensus on how the Wikipedia article should spell it. I would greatly appreciate your assistance, and that of your colleagues, in this respect, so that I can be confident in my forays into the secret world of grammar and spelling corrections. Risker (talk) 05:52, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I dropped Rococo— the only correct spelling in English, you may be sure— from my watchlist, as a coxcombs' playpen. (I didn't actually say so, but "hopelessly amateurish" did slip out at the Talkpage.) The last version I had anything to do with (not counting the indigestible "Worldliness and the Catholic Church" from Catholic Encyclopedia) was that as of 05:14, 15 August 2005: compare it, though without footnotes, with the current babble. There's always plenty to do elsewhere at Wikipedia, so I've kept instead to mere exemplars of Rococo: hôtels particuliers, designers, craftsmen, always letting my sources do the talking. So I am currently as free of irritants as if I were wearing a flea collar... --Wetman (talk) 06:15, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually "Rococco" is slightly the more common variant/spelling mistake - 192 on Google scholar, many actually from art history, vs 152 for Roccoco (many for a type of rose), and 16,900 for "rococo". Johnbod (talk) 13:54, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Bad boy, Johnbod! That's not like you at all, but even Homer nods! I notice that used copies of Michael Levey, Rococo to Revolution: Major Trends in Eighteenth-Century Painting are often posted with the misspelling "Roccoco [sic] to Revolution". Shorter OED has no listing for "roccoco" nor is it a secondary spelling for "rococo." --Wetman (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much, gentlemen. While I quite agree with you about the overall quality of the article, it has been improved significantly simply by the consistent spelling. I shall now, of course, have the correct spelling forever imprinted in my brain. Cheers. Risker (talk) 15:55, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

The bulk of the mispellings had only been there 2 weeks, since a one-time editor changed them all. I notice the Norweigian article is called "Rokokko", with links to web-sites using the same. That seems to be only other-language article to double either consonant. Johnbod (talk) 16:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Inappropriate comment

You wrote, "Please don't harangue the Reference Desk volunteers. The Reference Desk is not a soap box.", was an inappropriate comment. He asked legitimate questions. Inappropriate warnings, or comments can be considered trolling. Please don't do it. ScienceApe (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

This person is doubly mistaken in his misapplied warning. An Internet troll is defined at Wikipedia as "a person who is deliberately inflammatory on the Internet in order to provoke a vehement response from other users": the essay "What is a troll?" is recommended. And in fact, the Reference Desk is not a soap box: editors who are consistently active at the Reference Desk are aware of the advice permanently posted at the head of the page "Do not start a debate; please seek an internet forum instead."

The contentious challenges inviting debate are not "legitimate" questions:

""human is probably the only animal in the world which do not help ecosystem to maintain its balance, but destroy it, thus the only harmful animal to ecosystem. So from a philosophical approach, we can conclude "earth without humanity will be happier". I want to know the names of some persons who have philosophical :works from this viewpoint. The only person I know is Pentti Linkola who supported the Holocaust with the logic it helped to maintain the ecological balance by reducing overpopulation."

Needless to add, the Holocaust as a defensible form of planetary population control in the name of ecological sustainability is a grotesquely inappropriate subject for debate anywhere.--Wetman 05:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It looks like he deleted part of that from the message that I saw, and reduced it to just the questions. Still, I don't have major qualms with it because he is asking legitimate questions. It just seems like he might have wanted to post why he's asking those questions in the first place. We don't have to agree with what he's saying, just the questions he's asking is the only thing that needs to be addressed. ScienceApe (talk) 06:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Image:LibiaStamp.jpg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:LibiaStamp.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Calliopejen1 (talk) 16:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Walter Scott Lenox

Great improvements! Thanks. --Doug Coldwell ^talk 23:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Doug! I hadn't seen it was your new article til I had finished. Your sources would help you improve Lenox (company) too, I think.--Wetman 23:10, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes indeed. I was able to use those references to double the size of the article on Lenox (company). In the process I learned that Lenox company was the first to develop a bridal registry. What a marketing technique! Almost as good as the gift card.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 14:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Klismos

On 18 November, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Klismos, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

~ User:Ameliorate! ^{(with the !) (talk)} 11:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Telephus

Thanks for explaining that reference! I looked at the Telephassa and couldn't find anything pertaining to the moon, so I took it out. It makes much more sense now. Kafka Liz (talk) 20:40, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

That's good. I'm always more cautious about deleting information from Wikipedia than about adding it, as deletions can disappear forever into the article history. But truly the unreferenced Telephassa wasn't very helpful. --Wetman 20:45, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

I thought it might be a garbled translation of something. I figured I'd see if I could find more information this evening (my time, that is) to explain it. Thanks again, Kafka Liz (talk) 20:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Sublime

Hello Wetman - been a while. Would you be able to help with my question here, about the sublime's contribution to Caspar Friedrich's work (or vice versa)? --Joopercoopers (talk) 16:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

There's no Simon Schama quote in Landscape and Memory that's on target, though there are several illustrations of Caspar David Friedrich, and Schama's discussion is about transcendent qualities sensed in nature by Romantic painters. The striving for sublime beyond mere beauty is hard to escape when looking at Friederich's shattered oaks and impenetrable forests. But I avoid the run-up to "Featured Article" status, on general principles.--Wetman 22:41, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Which is a shame in this case, though that approach is understandable. Anyway, I was going to ask your openion Wetman on The Lucy poems, remembering you were very helpful with She Dwelt among the Untrodden Ways[5]. Ceoil (talk) 00:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Your principles are very sound I think - I found myself at Friedrich for a bit of read and found it was up for FAC, so went to congratulate Ceoil on his efforts. Hoary, has left a few suggestions for wider reading on the sublime on Giano's talk - If you have any others, they'd be gratefully received. Kind regards --Joopercoopers (talk) 17:45, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Signature

Hi Wetman, something in your signature appears to be broken, may I help you debug it? My guess is that it has something to do with the "Raw signature" box in your preferences. Could you try this please?

• Click on "My preferences" at the top of the browser
• Look for the "Raw signature" checkbox, and ensure that it is unchecked
• In the "signature" box immediately above the checkbox, make sure it is empty
• Click on the "Save" button.
• Reply to my post here, and sign normally with four tildes: ~~~~. Then I can take another look to see if it's working or not.

Thanks, --Elonka 20:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd noticed that my signature was no longer linked, but figured it was some new MoS decided upon in some obscure discussion. Now I see what I've done! thank you.--Wetman (talk) 22:26, 26 November 2008 (UTC)--back in blue.

Great, glad to see it's working again.  :) --Elonka 22:53, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Old Orleans Collection

Thanks! Feel free to accent away - it's just my laziness & I may get round to it, although I have still a trace of my old classics master who said Orleens as the Whig grandees no doubt did, and Lions (Leghorn never came up). I'd been meaning to do it for a while, & have recently got the Penny, & then was surprised how many other relevant books I had. Though as with the Dutch Gift, the arithmetic gets very puzzling: if Phil has 40 Titians, but 26 are no longer attributed, and 4 went ... and so on. Do you you know the Reitlinger? - he has a lovely sly wit & is very readable. I'm pretty much done for now, so do please add. Johnbod (talk) 23:26, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

The late John Pope-Hennessy always pronounced Milan "MILL'n" as in Shakespeare. I think the "English consul" is Joseph Smith (1682-1770): his Correggio Leda was appraised at a thousand scudi.

Not Smith, John Udney of Leghorn and Teddington (could he be Udney the painter from the roll-call later on?). But the Correggio Danaes seem to be multplying... Johnbod (talk) 01:57, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I have to pull myself together and go to dinner, but I'll really sit down with the Or-LEENS collection afterwards. Great stuff, Johnbod. At User Talk: Giano II they're discussing whether new subjects are winding down to peripheral stuf... --Wetman (talk) 23:55, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Direct quotes

A regards this, yes, it is a direct quote. 151.50.34.170 (talk) 12:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I've set it in italics and used <blockquote></blockquote> to set the quote apart: see the html at Apodemius, which shows how it's done. Do log in.--Wetman (talk) 18:44, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I reverted. Only "a persevering and bitter enemy to all good men" is a direct quote. --TakenakaN (talk) 20:02, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

With great patience and forbearance I set the following direct quote from Ammianus Marcellinus once more in blockquote form:

When he had arrived in Gaul, taking no heed of the commission with which he was charged, and caring but little for anything that might happen, he remained inactive, without either seeing Silvanus, or delivering the letters which commanded him to appear at court. And having taken the receiver of the province into his counsels, he began with arrogance and malevolence to harass the clients and servants of the master of the horse, as if that officer had been already condemned and was on the point of being executed.

One can often distinguish the literary style of Ammianus Marcellinus from the sub-literary style of one's average Wikipedia editor.--Wetman (talk) 20:37, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Westbury Court Garden etc

Wetman, thank you for the additions and grammar corrections on a couple of my little efforts over the weekend, particularly on Westbury Court Garden. It has been many decades since I last had feedback on my formal writing style and I have found your comments very instructive, particularly on my fondness for "and". I had not realised how sloppy I had become. As you may know I have proposed a DYK from Westbury and I hope you don't mind but I have added you as a co-expander (is that a word?) in the nomination. Thanks again, Nancy ^talk 08:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

p.s. If you had a moment to cast your eye over Cannons (house) I would be eternally grateful.... Nancy ^talk 08:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

What matters more than whose words are appearing, is that all changes are really for the better: keep editing! My own tic is the use of a colon to imply "furthermore": overused, it's intrusive. Oop, there I go! --Wetman (talk) 20:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Disinfoboxes

I recently felt inspired to write an essay on disinfoboxes at Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes. Since I quoted you, I thought I would let you know about it. Please feel free to add to the essay and/or give me your feedback. Thanks.Nrswanson (talk) 08:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

James Gibbs

In response to your message claiming that my post on James Gibbs was vandalism, I changed the year of his birth, according to the listing in the book Dictionary of Architecture, 5th edition, if that book is incorrect, I apologize, but I in no way was trying to mislead anyone, if anything I thought I was correcting an error.

-Ruebush

My hastiness, after several hours cleaning up mis"corrections" and worse. I see that Arthur Frommer as well as other guides have the date wrong, too.--Wetman (talk) 06:09, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Animal painter

Up your street? Via Overdoor, where I was pleased but not at all surprised to pick up your trail. Johnbod (talk) 21:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

NYPL flagpole base

North flagpole

Had an errand in Times Square, and walked over to 5th to take a dozen pix. Most are poor; it ain't easy to get a good pic of a bronze statue on the shady side of the street. Here's the best, unprocessed. The others, I'll crop, correct shades and upload what comes out well from that process around the end of the year.

Outstanding: overcast days or bright shade are kind to outdoor sculpture. See now Raffaele Menconi and New York Public Library Main Branch, thanks to you! --Wetman (talk) 11:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmmph, it looks better on this screen than where I do my selections and retouches. Well, it's one reason I use that screen; whatever comes out tolerable there will be beautiful elsewhere. This month I'll try to visit the location a few times in different weather and times of day; might get the subject in sun, and background in shade or something. D'ya do any photograpy yourself? After only a year and without formal study, it's pretty easy to get one good shot out of fifty, and bad shots cost very little. Illness and business will surely keep me away from East 91st Street all month; January is a better chance. Will you attend the Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC in Morningside Heights that month?

Sir William Chambers? A palazzo in Vicenza? or one by Michele Sanmicheli? What inspired James Brown Lord here?

Chambers' Strand front

Oh, I almost signed off before saying, good job creating an article for a picture even though it's a mediocre upsun shot of the 79th Street Library. Good shooting there will have to await the northing sun of springtime. We should arrange the 79th street pix geographically. On the other hand the poor shot of Municipal Asphalt Plant wasn't the sun's fault, but mine. Jim.henderson (talk) 22:40, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Aye, 79th Street (Manhattan) should proceed either East to West or West to East. Now, maybe one of the Lurkers here can i.d. the Palladian source for the library front (right): a tightened-up version of Sir William Chambers's Strand front of Somerset House, perhaps? Whence the mask-and-swags around the mezzanine openings? Also neo-Palladian? William Kent?

At The Apthorp, a shot into the arched entrance, showing the inside of the arch and one low-relief spandrel figure would make sense of a detailed treatment of The Apthorp. The standing four seasons over the Apthorpe entrance are worth featuring too.--Wetman (talk) 00:59, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

If nobody else does, I'll sequence 79th before Christmas. As for architectural scholarship, it's like pornography to me. I may not know the names of the parts I'm looking at; I just know what I like. Apthorp is fairly close; might not wait for the end of my sniffles to walk there and shoot the parts. Heck, I didn't know what spandrels are until you used the word above, I looked it up and golly, I got a nice shot of one of them thar things a couple months ago and hope the people who tend that article think it appropriate. Well, getting close to time to sniffle off to bed; ta-ta. Jim.henderson (talk) 06:07, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Spandrels: aren't those the black shorts worn in the Tour de France? Seriously, have you a favorite street or avenue that deserves an illustrated overhaul? I'm up for any--Wetman (talk) 07:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Streets in general lend themselves to linear narrative, as in the "walk down" 34th Street except that's one whose linear narrative is supplemented by two lists that ought to be integrated into the text and some pix should be added. Many streets are one-way, which suggests a direction. As for two way, best I guess to pick the end and side that has a good picture for the top right, and the rest of the pix follow the pattern set by that one. Anyway the place to discuss this is not your talkpage or mine, but Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City. Jim.henderson (talk) 21:37, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm interested in providing text for your excellent documentary pictures, Jim.henderson, but not those shot in twilight with colored cards held in front of the camera, demonstrating that a place was "visited" — but rendering the photograph unusable for the encyclopedia. An afternoon of subway rides on a scavenger hunt with teams of post-teens doesn't seem suitable for me. There's just no way to explain it that won't sound mean-spirited, even snobbish, but there it is. So I shall just look over your shoulder, to see what you upload, and proceed from there.--Wetman (talk) 22:32, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Five article DYK hook

Here is a challenging little problem. I don't necessarly expect you to get involved, but if you can think of a solution or any ideas I would appreciate it. I submitted a 5 article DYK hook today and I believe we are close to getting it solved as something they will accept - however it has not been finalized yet. The main concern is that a reference does not actually say first semi-armored car or first lightly-armored car, however by process of elimination since Davidson invented the armored car he is the one that invented the first partially armored car. I have submitted ALTERNATE choices for the hook to get all five articles accepted, with under 200 characters in the hook. One may be accepted by the time you read this (hopefully). As a goal I am trying to get a 5 article hook - which I am not sure has been done before. Thanks. --Doug Coldwell ^talk 19:30, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK currently has a self-appointed Dragon-at-the-Gate.--Wetman (talk) 01:11, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends. - Abraham Lincoln --Doug Coldwell ^talk 16:37, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Alas, for authentic greatness! the best I can do is shrink them to the size of cockroaches and make them dance in teaspoons...--Wetman (talk) 21:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, just been notified that the 5-barrelled DYK hook is on the main page. Also received The Original Barnstar award for this. Have not been able to so far verify that a 5 article hook has been done before. Have you come across one? --Doug Coldwell ^talk 21:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

No, never! Good job, Doug.--Wetman (talk) 01:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

9-article hook

A 9-article DYK hook (screenshot) I submitted just came up this morning. I believe this is the record now. Previous was an 8-article hook held by User:Gatoclass for eleven months.

• ...that John W. Lambert (pictured) in 1891 made the first U.S. car for sale as well as Union cars and Lambert cars using his gasoline engines and gearless transmissions for the Union car company and Lambert car company as subsiduaries of the Buckeye Manufacturing Company?

--Doug Coldwell ^talk 14:21, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Orleans Collection

On 4 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Orleans Collection, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 20:46, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

This was actually Johnbod's work: I tweaked and squirreled out a couple of minor details. --Wetman (talk) 01:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Westbury Court Garden

On 6 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Westbury Court Garden, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 03:31, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Robson

Thanks for the Robson link in New Gallery (London). - PKM (talk) 04:26, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, you see how you got me going!--Wetman (talk) 04:38, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I do it to myself all the time.  :-) - PKM (talk) 05:17, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Tavern on the green

WP:DTTR please, and don't WP:EW. Tavern on the Green, the highest grossing restaurant in the US, developing a second location that would be one of the most prominent restaurant openings in the US, is as relevant to company history as anything in the article, and notable per WP:RS. If you consider the tone wrong please feel free to rewrite it but I am not sure how else to describe development plans. "Announcd plans" is a way to avoid WP:CRYSTAL and seems more precise than "is in development" because that is not clear from the articel. Cheers. Wikidemon (talk) 17:25, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

(Copied to Talk:Tavern on the Green--Wetman (talk) 23:07, 9 December 2008 (UTC))

DYK entry issue

Hello! Your submission of Henry Maundrell at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed. There still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Nsk92 (talk) 03:11, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK entry issue addressed

I provided an ALT hook for El Mashad v. Bush which addresses your post. If you have a chance, would you please take a look. Thanks. -- Suntag ☼ 13:25, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, exactly! don't you think that's clearer? I linked habeas corpus and Guantanamo Bay: they make it richer.--Wetman (talk) 13:35, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Edward Robert Robson

On 11 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Edward Robert Robson, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 11:43, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Richard Hol

Will have a look. Thank you. Schissel | Sound the Note! 18:34, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Kara Darya River

Why remove footnote? Seems correct to me.Benjamin Trovato (talk) 04:19, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

It's "river" that's tautological, as Darya means "river". With the article name Kara Darya, there's no tautology. But the footnote was useful (I think I added it), and should be restored. Done.--Wetman (talk) 11:19, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Edward Robert Robson

I found a little more. (By the way, I see you wrote 'classicising', no doubt preferring a UK spelling, but see Oxford spelling. For me, this is one thing you do better over there!) Xn4 (talk) 15:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you read me right; so, I can drop -ise in preferences to -ize when writing on British subjects, then. By the way, that's quite a well-rounded little article now. Thank you.--Wetman (talk) 01:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

ArbCom candidacy

Hi Wetman, I'm writing to you concerning your oppose to my ArbCom candidacy. Many oppose votes have revolved around a few themes and I have tried to address those concerns at my final statement. I'd be happy if you would reconsider your vote based on my updated comments, but in any case I'll be taking on board your comment about the amicus curiae approach (which is a fascinating concept). Do you think it is possible for that approach to be taken by someone on the committee, or not? If you have more questions or comments, please contact me at my talk page. Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 03:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Most inappropriate. My oppose vote was a no vote.--Wetman (talk) 03:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Apologies for that. Carcharoth (talk) 03:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Champmol

Just a holding stub there, work proceeds here, but (now moved to mainspace) I can't find much on the architecture. Additions on that, or anything else, very welcome. i'll move to mainspace shortly. Johnbod (talk) 00:57, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I added the gist of a further Lindquist article. I'll search JSTOR for more. Champmol helped define Late Gothic Burgundian style, which we mentally reassemble from the scattered fragments. I added a quote relating to its importance. Amazing what first-importance material is just now getting a Wikipedia article— thanks to you.--Wetman (talk) 16:54, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - I've added a note on the talk page. Johnbod (talk) 22:36, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Colvin

Hi again Wetman - Am I correct in thinking you have Colvin? Does he shed any light on James Wyatt's refacing of the Banqueting house completed c.1815? I know he died in 1813, so it must have been one of his last works. --Joopercoopers (talk) 00:00, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

'Deed I do. Colvin (3rd ed. 1995) mention Wyatt's staircase added at the north end, 1808-09, but not refacing. Colvin's reference to Wyatt at the Banquetting House is History of the King's Works , vi.545f, but I don't have that series of volumes.--Wetman (talk) 12:51, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks Wetman - you might be interested in the thread on Giano's talk at user talk:Giano II#Copyediting - any contributions no doubt gratefully received. Fond regards --Joopercoopers (talk) 12:54, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Henry Maundrell

On 18 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Henry Maundrell, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 23:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Angelo Decembrio

You're quick! Charles Matthews (talk) 22:31, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Fixed that pesky redlink!--Wetman (talk) 00:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Marzocco

I’m loath to butcher your prose for a second time today, but there is a factoid you might like gracefully to weave into the article:

The name derives from Marte (Mars) whose statue, carried away by a flood of the Arno, had previously been Florence’s emblem.

Source: loZingarelli 2008: Vocobolario della lingua italiana, Zanichelli (2007).

—Ian Spackman (talk) 20:10, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually not convinced myself, but it's well referenced: so in it goes, and thank you! Come to think of it Mary McCarthy had something to say about Marzocco in The stones of Florence: my copy was lost in a case of books in the 'seventies. I wonder whether anyone can add something from that book. Lurkers? --Wetman (talk) 20:48, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Damn, you work fast. After doing Postage stamps and postal history of Tuscany, I was planning on translating the Italian version of Marzocco, which has a lot of detail. I still might do that. Ecphora (talk) 04:51, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

The detail I didn't work in was È alto 135,5 cm. Someone might want gracefully to edit it in (Ian Spackman has noticed my cranky and antiquated distaste for unnecessarily split infinitives.).--Wetman (talk) 10:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Can you add a reference to the crown appearing on the stamp? As far as I know it needs to be referenced inline if you want a double hook to succeed. By the way, nice job on the quick creation! - Mgm|^(talk) 12:19, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

The crown appears on the stamp: the postage stamp is illustrated. The crowned Marzocco is noted in the lines by Francesco Sacchetti. What kind of "reference" would satisfy?--Wetman (talk) 13:04, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Happy christmas!

to you too of course, with a few hours to go! Johnbod (talk) 02:56, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Westminster Retable

On 26 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Westminster Retable, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 06:07, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Narcissus poeticus

Thanks, I was getting embarrassingly sloppy there. First Light (talk) 17:24, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Assyrian People

Seeing your past history on working on the Assyrian People page I would like to invite you to engage in discussion here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac_people#Move_to_Assyrian_people It has gotten pretty heated and I am slowly distancing myself from it to have non partisian voters come up with a solution. I would reaaly aprreciate it if give us your input and perhaps some ideas into progressing the overall quality of the article. Best Regards and Happy Holidays Ninevite (talk) 02:24, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I too have disengaged. Perhaps non-partisan editors are not welcome.--Wetman (talk) 12:03, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Wetman unfortunately I have to agree with that statement, despite the countless sources we have come up with regarding the issue, they get dismissed by some radicals who call all our findings from google scholar, CIA Factbook, World Ethnic Groups, Library of Congress to name just a few as "stupid, bias, propaganda, naive, pov, mentally ill, " just on the grounds because it does not support their unhistorical minority views while not even providing any evidence from themselves. That page has been overrun by some users who do not allow any logic to progress, I dont mean to be bothering you or anything but perhaps a suggestion or two from you would be greatly appreciated, again I thank you for your time regardless, Best Regards. Ninevite (talk) 22:12, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I've concentrated my scattered efforts at Ethnogenesis and Romantic nationalism, where the fundamental flaws of "race history" are hinted at; I started an article on Phoenicianism, then dropped it from my watchlist, and I hope to be excused from looking in here. My interest in the Near East drops away sharply with the arrival of Islam, I am congenitally short of patience, and my opinion is not of consequence.--Wetman (talk) 23:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Can you comment on the Ashurbanipal article here [[6]] regarding the pictures, I had a question about it perhaps you can answer it for me, thanks Ninevite (talk) 22:57, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Season's greetings

Season's greetings Mr Wetman and all the best for the new year. Kind regards --Joopercoopers (talk) 19:11, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

DYK for Marzocco

On 28 December, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Marzocco, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Cunard (talk) 01:43, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick article creation! Happy editing. Cheers! --PFHLai (talk) 02:22, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Bernard McMahon DYK

Hello! Your submission of Bernard McMahon at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Olaf Davis | Talk 09:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Googie/steampunk architectural dispute

Greetings: Please see Talk:Googie_architecture#Christchurch casino image and weigh in if you have an opinion following detailed examination of the image in dispute. Thanks, Leonard G. (talk) 08:39, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt response, closing answer on the talk page. Leonard G. (talk) 18:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Your additions to Livingston County Courthouse (New York)

These two links to websites you added [7] and [8] do not appear to comply with WP:RS. Could you please remove them, or move that information to the article's talk page? Do you know of better sources that comply with WP:RS to back up this information? Cirt (talk) 19:43, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I found some better sources so I replace those (just none yet for Hillman's first name). Cirt (talk) 19:59, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind, found another source, thanks. Cirt (talk) 20:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Whenever you write about a structure, it makes sense to include the architects in your text.--Wetman (talk) 20:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes of course - but only if that information is verifiable to reliable sources, and not random websites. Cirt (talk) 20:18, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I have done a bit more research and added some additional material from more WP:RS sources to the article. If you know of any other WP:RS sources that discuss the subject of the article, it would be most appreciated. Cirt (talk) 22:29, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Was the misspelling "Hilman" merely in the reliable source that reported The Brickbuilder article, or was it in the reliable original article, as my added "(sic)" has suggested— or was it an error of a well-meaning but unreliable transcription? Why is J. Constantine Hillman now edited to "J. Con. Hillman"? Let's begin by transmitting complete and reliable information; then we can be ever so fastidious about "verifiable and reliable sources". --Wetman (talk) 04:54, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I have yet to see any verifiable and reliable sources which refer to a "J. Constantine Hillman". Cirt (talk) 14:27, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

The Official Designation of 373 Mira Vista Terrance as a Landmark "an Arts and Crafts period house in the Swiss chalet subtype designed by architect J. Constantine Hillman" would satisfy a less-demanding editor, you'd have thought. Since it came up about first in googling "J. Constantine Hillman", it can hardly have been missed by Cirt. Perhaps the editor "has yet to see" the Official designation of the Governor Markham Victorian District, where "J. Constantine Hillman" is the spelling. Wikipedia is meant to transmit information. --Wetman (talk) 23:10, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

You posted the exact same post here, and at Talk:Livingston County Courthouse (New York). Let us continue the discussion there at the article's talk page. Cirt (talk) 04:06, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh, let's not.--Wetman (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Wetman's resources of patience and forbearance are in perennially short supply. Principles of triage require that no more of these reserves be expended than any one situation requires. Your understanding is appreciated.

Alright, but if you wish to discuss, I replied at the talk page. Cirt (talk) 01:20, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

new WP:RDREG userbox

This user is a Reference desk regular.

The box to the right is the newly created userbox for all RefDesk regulars. Since you are an RD regular, you are receiving this notice to remind you to put this box on your userpage! (but when you do, don't include the |no. Just say {{WP:RD regulars/box}} ) This adds you to Category:RD regulars, which is a must. So please, add it. Don't worry, no more spam after this - just check WP:RDREG for updates, news, etc. flaminglawyer^c 07:11, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
(PS you might want to consider archiving your talk page)

I'm more of a Reference Desk Irregular, actually. --Wetman (talk) 13:06, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

This user is a Reference desk irregular.

-- Xn4 (talk) 13:40, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Outstanding! That's gone right onto the userpage! Thank you, Xn4!--Wetman (talk) 17:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

(Bows). Xn4 (talk) 17:54, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Borden Oaks

Hey, I left a comment at Talk:Borden Oaks. Altairisfar_talk 22:42, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Lactarius volemus

Replied. Didn't know if you were watching the page. J Milburn (talk) 16:59, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Nick Stone

I am working on a rewrte and expansion here and learning a lot, all the experts are criticising or sneering at him in the ref books, yet he seems to be working in a fairly accomplished Baroque style at more or less the same time Jones is being hailed as a genius for introuducing Palladianism/classicalism - I wondered if you have any mention of him in any of your books - the internet is pretty useless, and my ref books seem only to concentrate on his sculpture rather than his architecture. I always thought Wren was the introducer of Baroque to England, but this seems to be nearly 50 years earlier. Giano (talk) 08:09, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I've sometimes wondered whether Rupert Gunnis began his dictionary of sculptors with 1660 to avoid Nicholas Stone and the more scattered pre-Civil War archives. Stone does need a good Gianization. I could shake the JSTOR tree and pick up fallen fruit.--Wetman (talk) 19:30, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I've worked in Howard Colvin 1995, for your re-editing. Shall I wait to rifle JSTOR?--Wetman (talk) 20:30, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Your edits are always most welcome, as you know! Please rifle JSTOR let's throw in every known fact and then make some sense of them all together. Pevsner attributed the Danby Gate quite definitly to Stone, but then, I am not Pevsner's greatest fan, nice old boy, but he was rather opinionated. The York Water Gate is great, isn't it? One can definitly see a disitinctive style emerging, the image of Goldsmith's Hall too has a distinctive porch. I'm fascinated by this definite Baroque so early, and by the fact it seems to be so "put down" even now - the Brits realy don't like Baroque do they? - never have. Giano (talk) 22:57, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

No they really don't. Pevsner himself broadcast The Englishness of English Art in the Reith Lectures on the BBC in October and November 1955; they're collected in a slim volume I ought to have read but haven't. From the end of the nineteenth century, the broadest notion of an "Englishness" was a perfectly reputable subject widely debated in arty English cultural circles: the debate embodied in landscape representations is the up-to-date subject of a set of essays that make up The Geographies of Englishness (2002). Haven't read those either. That the York Water Gate used to be attributed to Jones himself was more a symptom of how few alternative names were available! Stand by for JSTOR.--Wetman (talk) 23:31, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

This is really interesting stuff, I aactually (and probably pompously) feel we are discovering stuff here, sort of treading new ground with own research backed up by neglected and deliberatly overlooked hard fact. Giano (talk) 08:59, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

The Englishness of English Art is still a good read. There was certainly a feeling, especially among those of Pevsner's generation, that it was fortunate that Inigo Jones picked up on Palladio & set up a more restrained Baroque as the English norm, largely enabling the English to by-pass what one might call the "fussy Baroque" Stone represented: "rationalism and ... reasonableness lies behind Palladian as well as Perpendiclar architecture" (p. 122), connecting this with middle-class infuence even at this early date. He also connects it with a perennial English preference for undulating line over squidgy body (p. 140). Johnbod (talk) 17:37, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for that Johnbod, there us a response but political correctness and my civility sanction forbid me enlightening you - "a perennial English preference for undulating line over squidgy body" mmmmm! all the fault of those public schools, I suspect - no! - I shall say no more. Giano (talk) 21:57, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Wetman, for all the great additions and info, I have moved soe of it about to various sections as the page takes shape - do you have a page number etc for " Howard Colvin's assessment of Stone's architecture is that he "partly absorbed the new classicism of Inigo Jones, but without accepting its full discipline and without rejecting some of the mannerist or baroque features that he had learned in London and Amsterdam." I would hate to see a cite tag placed there by one of our more zelous friends. Giano (talk) 11:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

With a dictionary, isn't "s.v. 'Stone, Nicholas' " better than a page number? particularly since there's now a fourth edition. I have a reference to Nicholas Stone's decade or so of work at Oxnead, Norfolk, for Sir William Paston, which I'll edit in later today. Cheers!--Wetman (talk) 18:13, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Another one Jimbo overlooked

Ancient Roman pottery (and indeed Ceramic art, now under renovation). I do have books on this so will ref up shortly. Johnbod (talk) 19:01, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Terra sigillata desperately needs to be included in your sweep. The "Grand Signior" reminds me of the letters of Lady Mary Wortley Montagu.--Wetman (talk) 05:41, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I had covered it (a slightly slippery term) but not seen the article, as it was not categorized properly. Do you think "ceramics" includes "glass" in an archaeological or art history context, btw? Johnbod (talk) 13:46, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

No, I think the phrase "ceramics and glass" is a familiar one.--Wetman (talk) 20:22, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, though one sometimes sees glass under ceramics too. On an earlier tack, I saw this. Johnbod (talk) 21:32, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. I'm reminded of Niki de Saint-Phalle's Nanas.--Wetman (talk) 05:15, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Château de Cayx

On January 29, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Château de Cayx, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Dravecky (talk) 09:24, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Re: 1911 Britannica tags

Wetman posted the following at User talk:Eastlaw:

When you insert the template "{1911}" it reads This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Missing or empty |title= (help). Not every article that credits "Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1911" is currently based on that article, as did tend to be the fact several years ago. Templates thoughtlessly applied are the bane of the better sort of Wikipedians. Can you go back and vet your applications oof this template, please? Thank you.

Response:

What I was doing is making sure that the talk pages which were tagged with {{1911 talk}} also had {{1911}} tags on their respective articles. I am doing this because {{1911 talk}} is up for deletion, and therefore I made a list of articles whose talk pages contain it but are missing the 1911 tag in mainspace.

If you feel that I inappropriately tagged any articles with {{1911}}, feel free to remove the tag. --Eastlaw ^talk ⁄ _contribs 10:24, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Mindless. I'll clean up your mess. I'll bet you're busy with infoboxes too.--Wetman (talk) 10:30, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, that was certainly uncalled for. --Eastlaw ^talk ⁄ _contribs 10:35, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

"Mindless" was a courtesy, under the Wikipedia:AGF precept. O Gentle Readers, will you look at what can be done with AutoWikiBrowser if you use it without glancing at the articles in question. "Feel free to remove the tag" is intended as a challenge, I wonder? or merely an insult?--Wetman (talk) 10:47, 30 January 2009 (UTC).

The whole purpose of AutoWikiBrowser is to help automate the "mindless" tasks which are often necessary on Wikipedia (just as "mindless" tasks are often necessary in real life, as well). I have yet to hear you tell me what it was that I actually did wrong here. Either both templates belong, or neither do, but they are supposed to be used together. My response was meant neither as a challenge nor as an insult.

I suspect that while your rather unique combination of hostility and pomposity might endear you to some, it stems from some sort of insecurity. Perhaps a bit of introspection is needed on your part, before you go overreacting to other people's actions here on Wikipedia. Seriously, man, get a grip. --Eastlaw ^talk ⁄ _contribs 11:07, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Wetman's resources of patience and forbearance are in perennially short supply. Principles of triage require that no more of these reserves be expended than any one situation requires. Your understanding is appreciated.

Either both templates belong or neither, do as Eastlaw says, but did Eastlaw ever stop and consider whether, perhaps, neither do? The assumption that always, if one is present, both are supposed to be, is mindless at best, but counterproductive any way. Perhaps the fact that Eastlaw thinks there are mindless tasks in "real" life explains it all. Srnec (talk) 23:28, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh, Srnec, how nice to see a post from you. How would a responsible administrative editor reverse the damage? I have been carefully distinguishing References: Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1911, s.v."Whatever" from This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Missing or empty |title= (help) for some long time. Now all is thoughtlessly erased— with a challenge to fix the situation and petty insults to boot?--Wetman (talk) 00:34, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Now for that you need to ask a more "administrative" editor. Even before the damage, Eastlaw proposed the talk page template for deletion. My comment there seems to have generated a sort of concession. The whole thing is easily fixed by a bot if the articlespace template is deleted, but as that would leave many pages without any source attribution at all it is probably unwise. Of course, articles still incorporating large sections of text from the 1911 Britannica need to be revised, but that's the kind of systematic work we're trying to avoid. Srnec (talk) 02:59, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Civility Reminder

Just a friendly reminder that WP:CIVIL is a non-optional policy here, and this edit and this edit crossed the line of what is acceptable. It's fine to disagree with a fellow editor, but it's not fine to stoop to insults and personal attacks while disagreeing with them. I would suggest that you'll achieve much more with a cool head and calm, rational discussion than you will with rudeness and invective. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 13:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC).

Just so you know, I was informed of this situation via this post on WP:AN. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 14:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC).

"Mindless", was indeed a courtesy: I should not discourteously be implying that the damage was intentional. Wikipedia's articles are never sensibly mass-edited by automata: this is an egregious example of list-making run riot. Perhaps it is discourteous to say so?--Wetman (talk) 21:01, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

It's not discourteous to state your objections to automated edits, what is discourteous is creating sarcastic pages in another user's namespace and directing personal attacks towards them (I don't see how else this edit could be interpreted). Please be more careful in the future. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:21, 31 January 2009 (UTC).

The fact is, I can't clean up the mess, can I?. Thus the sarcastic offer above "feel free to remove the tag." Remarks about my "unique combination of hostility and pomposity" seem to pass Lankiveil criteria of "civility" of which I make no further comment: that will be all on this thread. --Wetman (talk) 03:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Wetman's resources of patience and forbearance are in perennially short supply. Principles of triage require that no more of these reserves be expended than any one situation requires. Your understanding is appreciated.

Wetman, I just read the related thread on WP:AN. (Sorry, I've been more interested in adding material to stubs so they can be promoted than reading accusations about other Wikipedians.) If another Wikipedian gets under your skin for doing something like that, drop me a note either on my Talk page or by email & I'll deal with it. You do more to improve Wikipedia than I, & I'd rather take the penalties over being frank about these things than you. -- llywrch (talk) 01:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

It's the offer of a gentleman, Llywrch. I knew better than to look at the complaint being lodged, for fear I'd be moved to defend myself, always an unwise act. I shall come to you, eventually: the list-makers and infobox-makers have such unfailing chips on their shoulders— well, and so should I: if I'd been cheated in my education, and found I was thirty years old and knew nothing beyond comic-books, tv trivia, blockbuster movies and artificial sports, I'd be quite furious.--Wetman (talk) 07:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Flora of Saskatchewan

Thank you for the notes about italics. Popped the article in and out of a text editor, and fixed it with a copy and paste so tis done. SriMesh | talk 02:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

You see? Sorry to flag it rather than fix it, but I would have had to run through it by hand!--Wetman (talk) 03:04, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Homo unius libri translation

Hi! I noticed you put Homo unius libri on the WP:Translation/*/Lang/es page, with your edit summary requesting someone to format it for you. That page is for translating articles in the Spanish Wikipedia into English. Presumably, what you want to do is translate it from English into Spanish. For that, you can use the page es:Wikipedia:Artículos_solicitados on the Spanish Wikipedia (if you speak Spanish).

If that solves your problem, please remove your translation request from WP:Translation/*/Lang/es. If not, feel free to leave me a message on my talk page explaining how I can help. Thanks! - Unconventional (talk) 22:20, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah, now I see the footnote; I didn't notice it before. Ok, I'll take a look at it. If the slightly archaic poetry is over my head (very possible), I'll try to find someone else's translation or add it back to the WP:Translation/*/Lang/es page. (Note that I've corrected a couple of spelling errors, which I assume came from trying to read a none-too-clear photocopy of Southey's book.) -Unconventional (talk) 18:34, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh cool! --Wetman (talk) 18:44, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I did a translation. It wasn't as hard as I thought, though I did have to twist it a little to maintain the meter. I'm trying to find a proofreader with better Spanish skills to check it for me. --Unconventional (talk) 20:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Norfolk

Hi

I'm trying to get the Norfolk pages up to scratch. I have approached a couple of other editors who mainly do this area, and wondered if you might consider spending some time helping ?

Thanks--Chaosdruid (talk) 13:07, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi. I'm really not as knowledgeable as I appear to be: I simply have a copy of some collected essays by R.W. Ketton-Cremer, which I've tried to edit into Wikipedia.--Wetman (talk) 13:30, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Kingdom of Wallachia

The Kingdom of Wallachia does in fact have connections to the historical Wallachia; just not the one in Romania. Just FYI. -Oreo Priest ^talk 05:27, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Ha! Moravian Wallachia. Some identification was indeed in order. Thank you. --Wetman (talk) 06:59, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Knapped flint

Hi, Wetman. As I was beginning Maxwell Ayrton, I looked for a link I thought I remembered to knapped flint, but I could only find knapping. Am I imagining that we had an article? Xn4 (talk) 12:55, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Ehem, Flushwork? Johnbod (talk) 13:11, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Excellent. Thank you, Johnbod, that's what I had in mind. Xn4 (talk) 14:29, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Et in Arcadia ego

I don't see that I've deleted that article, I fixed the broken redirect. Am I missing something? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I may be missing something myself. Et in Arcadia ego is the correct title, Et in arcadia ego incorrect. I was unable to revert someone's change. --Wetman (talk) 19:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't blame Carlos! You often can't move a page to a title that is already a redirect (because it was moved before). I've asked User_talk:Anthony_Appleyard#Et_in_arcadia_ego here. Johnbod (talk) 22:00, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorted! AA is the person I always ask on move issues, with usually very speedy results. Johnbod (talk) 22:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I shall immediately add User:Anthony_Appleyard to my Adult Support Group and WikiFacebookpedia Friend.--Wetman (talk) 01:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Sound move! Johnbod (talk) 09:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

No problem. It's like losing car keys - blame the dog! :-) Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:35, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Pluto-Serapis and Cerberus

Iraklion Cerberus

Statue of Cerberus

I can't remember what the rest of the statue looked like, except that it was male, Zeus-like figure with Cerberus seated at his feet. I can't remember a basket, but that doesn't automatically mean there wasn't one on his head. That was the only photo I took of that particular exhibit. The statue itself was located in Heraklion Archaeological Museum. Sorry, but that's all the information I can offer. - Nabokov (talk) 16:54, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

My hunch it's the same type as the one in this line drawing, except the one from Gortyn you photographed at Iraklion isn't draped with a serpent.- The sculpture for the Sanctuary of Serapis and Isis in Gortyn was made in Alexandria, I'm reading in a review of the expensive (€223) volume Gortina 3: Le Sculture, Elisa Chiara Portole and Ilaria Romeo, eds. (Scuola Arceologica di Atene) Padua, 1998. There'll be a copy at the Met and one down at NYPL I suppose...Wetman (talk) 18:12, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Tethys (mythology)

Nice mosaics. And well formatted in the article. And well captioned too. All this is rarer than you'd think... Thanks!--Wetman (talk) 19:00, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the complements -- takes some time, but I try to make images fit well into the articles and hate captions that are meaningless, one should learn something from them as well or be led to the details in the text. I often find images without details and can't even any in the text. Will carry this to your page as well. 83d40m (talk) 19:28, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Reading images is an integral aspect of literacy.--Wetman (talk) 23:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Tillemans

Noticed your interest. That new page led me to start Rose and Crown Club... Virtuosi of St Luke is still needed! Xn4 (talk) 12:27, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Barking mad!

I have been over the last few days mulling over an idea for a new page The eccentric country house, mainly because I had a computer package, that makes 3D exploding drawings, for Christmas I am learning to use (I have started [9] with some less eccentric,while I am learning, these images will all be deleted I just want to see how they translate to Wikipedia) a page on English country houses that would have shocked the neighbours when they were built. I shall probably include West Wycombe Park, Ickworth House and Waddesdon Manor can you thik of some more? Castle Drogo may be hard, but I'm going to try, but perhaps a very early one, I suppose Hardwick Hall was revolutionary in its day. I want to concentrate and make it an architecture is fun type page that may appeal to children and those are not usually that interested - keeping it quite light hearted, fun bit still educational. Any ideas? Giano (talk) 20:44, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

PS: Seen this [10] Hhohohohohho & ha! Giano (talk) 21:03, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Fonthill Abbey? Potty chair?--Wetman (talk) 22:19, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Portmeirion? That South African-looking house with the Harold Peto garden overlooking St Michael's Mount? Nonsuch Palace? Hearst's St Donat's Castle?--Wetman (talk) 22:25, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

• Good, good. good keep going. This is going to be kids/fun page (in as much as we are alowed fun on wikipedia) lots of colourful drawings relating to the photographs and some colourful charactors. Something to drag people into the more serious pages on the buildings. Giano (talk) 22:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

How about Sir John Summerson's expression "Prodigy houses", keeping to Tudor-Jacobean ones?--Wetman (talk) 22:32, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Yep, that is good. I just feel sometimes as an encyclopia we use all these amazing words and references to all these long dead architects (usually Italian), but don't bring it to life, I want to se if I can write a page for younger readers, so every house can have a builder who was either quite mad, oversexed or died in a very bloody manner (preferably all three). So ideally 6 or so houses from 1066 to 1866 subtly showing the development of the country house, but to quote Tony Blair sexed up. Giano (talk) 22:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, James Wyatt, who built Fonthill, was the first architect to die in a traffic accifdent, (September 1813). That's quite modern...--Wetman (talk) 02:00, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Does it have to be European? There's quite an eccentric house (Winchester House here in the States. Tex (talk) 22:53, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

PIllars of Hercules

Hey! It's really a small thing, but your link of the word "daring" to "hubris" on the Pillars of Hercules article made me smile. Dexterous linking! Merpin (talk) 11:24, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Conclusion of the American Civil War

Your input would be appreciated on the above article to improve its grammer and style. Thanks. --Doug Coldwell ^talk 14:13, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Doug, I've made a new subsection "Surrenders and the conclusion" at American Civil War with a hatnote to your main article covering that aspect. Now you should add a very concise summary of your article to the Civil War main article at that point.--Wetman (talk) 14:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Done! Thanks for idea.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 17:19, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for tweaks.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 18:21, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I have expanded the article and am aiming for G.A. --Doug Coldwell ^talk 14:13, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Ceci n'est pas une pipe. Nor a herm in English.

Herma of Saint Sigismund

In Medieval Art reliquary bust was also named herma per analogiam to the Ancient sculptures. Mathiasrex (talk) 07:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

A reliquary bust is named herma in a medieval document? Where did you read this? I do now see herma-reliquary used in contemporary— that is to say, modern— descriptions of reliquary busts at Polish and Hungarian sites. But in English, it's simply a confusion for the reader. Similar confusions could be made by applying the Russian understanding of anecdote to the English discussion at English-language Wikipedia. Now, who in the West could read Greek before the 15th century, in order to to have this analogia culturally available? Is this simply a modern (mis)application of herma? Nicholas Salmon's Stemmata Latinitatis gives herma- only in combinations, and Charlton Thomas Lewis and Hugh Macmaster Kingery, An Elementary Latin Dictionary doesn't list herma. My own Latin is slender. But not nonexistent, as Greek was among Western Europeans before the 15th century. The object at right could never have been called a herma by its maker or its owners. All very curious. --Wetman (talk) 08:01, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Here you have a contemporary explanation of therm used in Catholic encyclopedias and dictionaries [11], [12], in German as well herma, caput. chef, [EU] die Büste eines Heiligen, in welcher Knochen seines Kopfes eingeschlossen. Since Ottonian Renaissance Greek was more and more understand on the West and it was language used by upper class clergymen. For Otto III, Holy Roman Emperor Greek was nearly native. This name herma was given to the reliquary bust probably in Medieval times but we are sure that this therm existed in Christian art in XIX century. Mathiasrex (talk) 22:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

You are mistaken about "upper-class" churchmen reading Greek before the arrival in the West of Cardinal Bessarion. By "we" I suppose you mean others whose first language is not English. I have corrected therm for term in your post. I note that Polish Wikipedia: herma does not note the extension of the term herma to cover bust reliquary.--Wetman (talk) 22:50, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Greek (of a sort) was the popular language of Naples until surprisingly late (C13th ?) & used later, even today in places, in parts of Southern Italy (Griko language) & Sicily, which may account for the Catholic Dictionary and Januarius in Naples. Several late-medieval Popes were native Greek speakers. But this is not a normal term for medieval reliquaries in English, or Latin it seems, & doesn't belong in the article. Johnbod (talk) 04:09, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

See new evidence of Greek language existence in cultural life of Ottonian Germany in X century [13] In Polish wiki herma means a bust reliqary as well. Mathiasrex (talk) 08:30, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Very interesting about Bruno of Cologne's knowledge of Greek. There is also the isolated instance of Theophanu, the Byzantine princess, who arrived at the Ottonian court with an extensive entourage. The Griko-speakers are the exception that proves the rule, as we say in English: it was their very cultural isolation itself that preserved their dialect. An extension of herma used as a synonym of bust reliquary in Polish (and Hungarian?) might be worth a footnote: this sense of herma doesn't appear in OED and is far from idiomatic. --Wetman (talk) 13:29, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Please note difference between Medieval Art (as a part of History of Art) and Art in Medieval Europe. Completely useless is searching the proper word used in medieval times for an artefact known by contemporary art historians as a herma (reliquary bust). A casus of British dictionaries is simply ridiculous. New Oxford in Junior Dictionary eliminated words like monarchy etc. [14] Monarchy? Non exists. Mathiasrex (talk) 15:25, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

But they just aren't known to "contemporary art historians as a herma" in English! Johnbod (talk) 15:31, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

see entries above in English dictionaries even from XIX century. Mathiasrex (talk) 15:37, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

No "contemporary art historians" there, or in this search, which makes it clear that it appears in English only in relation to a few specific reliquaries in Central Europe, usually in translated works, or as "the so-called Herma ..." etc. Zero hits on Google scholar. Johnbod (talk) 16:17, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Herma? Non exists— as Mathiasrex likes to say— in this sense in the Oxford English Dictionary. One might take a hint from that. To find this bizarre foreign usage, Mathiasrex needs to consult Rev. Peter M. J. Stravinskas, Catholic Dictionary published by Our Sunday Visitor Publishing, of Huntington, Indiana, which by the way employs the "respelling" pronunciation method of Joseph M. Staudacher, as used in Lector's Guide to Biblical Pronunciations (Our Sunday Visitor Publishing 2001). The correct name for the silver gilt reliquary above is bust reliquary: now you know.--Wetman (talk) 16:51, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Rocksavage

Hi Wetman -- do you have a reference for the bit on the Marquess of Cholmondeley that you've added to Rocksavage? I'm trying to work the article up for DYK, but I'm running out of time right now as I'm away tomorrow and the weekend. Cheers, Espresso Addict (talk) 22:46, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Burke's Peerage.--Wetman (talk) 22:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC) Oh look! Here's Sargent's portrait of the late Lady Cholmondeley as Lady Rocksavage. Smashing! She was a handsome old lady too. Her husband, quite a stunner himself, was still Rocksavage, as his father was yet alive. The present Marquess goes about as David Rocksavage, making movies.--Wetman (talk) 23:24, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! We live not far from Cholmondeley Castle and regularly see the family careering around in flash cars. I hadn't realised till I started the Rocksavage article (as part of my ongoing labour of love on filling in redlinks Crewe Hall) that they were also heirs to the Rocksavage estate. Cheeers, Espresso Addict (talk) 23:29, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Fish

A question in your skeptical capacity: am I completely mad to think of keeping guppies, or some similar small tropical fish, in an unheated tank in a warm, indeed overheated, kitchen? How nice to know an expert! Johnbod (talk) 22:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

My apartment is so warm the heaters rarely come on. Many tropical fishes are happy in a less than steamy environment: I have two Botia modesta, steely blue and brick red, in a densely-planted 10-gallon tank on my desk who are twelve years old now. Do think of a planted aquarium, even for guppies!--Wetman (talk) 22:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks - now the worst London winter for 18 years seems over (snow on the ground for nearly 3 days!) it seems a good moment. The goldfish were all bullied to death by a small catfishy thing who was sent outside & taken by a heron. Plants we can do. Johnbod (talk) 23:11, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

It's been bitter here too. Do you think the Thermohaline circulation is about to stall out and send us all back to the Younger Dryas? That would throw a wrench into the economic works!--Wetman (talk) 23:36, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

It's alright for you, on the same latitude as Capri! Our climate ought to resemble Newfoundland by rights. As it is both my outside palms (not even wrapped) seem to have survived ok, though I'm not sure about the Ethiopian banana plant in a shed. But people think there will need to be a great restocking of exotic plants. Johnbod (talk) 00:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Your Ethiopian banana merely winters in a shed! Here round New York we have a maritime climate but continental weather, fast-moving "Alberta clippers" that at intervals bring polar air roaring down often enough that we're hard-pressed to find protected spots against sunny walls with root runs under paving for mezereum, cistus or rosemary. Just up the Hudson boxwood has to be wrapped in burlap for the winter: a chill sight. --Wetman (talk) 06:45, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

History of Smallpox

Can you list on the talk page what you edited and why? Not that there are many people on that page, but it would still be useful to know what you edited without having to look it up.GundamMerc (talk) 02:15, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I merely identified "A Spanish priest" formerly in the text as the Spanish Franciscan Motolinia and in a footnote gave the reference for the quote, which was demanded by a tagger, as quoted in Tzvetan Todorov, The Conquest of America: The Question of the Other (1999:136). I'll copy this post-and-response to Talk:History of smallpox. I got the reference through Google books.--Wetman (talk) 13:26, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Cana

You were an early contributor to the subject. There is now a revived discussion of the article, and your participation would be welcome. DoDaCanaDa (talk) 20:28, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I dropped Cana from my watchlist long ago; I see now that the tone of the recent discussion is not encouraging. Since my few edits on the geography of Cana several years ago, I have learned that the best way forward is to read a published article or book chapter on the subject and edit the essential gist of it, even a particularly concentrated quotation, into the article, followed by a footnote reference. Only a minority of cheeky editors are so bold as to suppress sourced quotations. I'd say that The Anchor Yale Bible Gospel of John is a glaring omission among the article's very few footnotes. Why not begin reporting the commentary of such a mainstream text? --Wetman (talk) 13:59, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Versailles (Chateau of)

Following a real life working trip to Versailles recently, I had a look at the above page, and it is looking a little unloved, it looks like large important portions have been hived off to make it a mangable length, but leaving a lot of repetition and uninformative information. I see your name in the history trying to keep order, but I have hesitated to touch it before, as I don't like high profile pages (too many know-alls, POV pushers & vandals) but I do think it needs something major doing to it, so I am doing a complete re-write hereUser:Giano/Verailles: a brief history (just a working title, to remind me I'm not writing a book) could you keep an eye over my shoulder for any big faux pas. Thanks. Giano (talk) 11:02, 27 February 2009 (UTC) of Versailles]]. It makes me cross just to look at it. So I don't. I do notice that Alfred Marie is still missing from the long list of authors, most of whom were apparently not actually consulted in editing the last version of the article that I read, some while back. I have nothing here in my library that would give me a perceptive edge. You know Giano, only a year or so before I started editing Wikipedia, I threw out filecases of 3x5 cards and slips with a lifetime's reading notes: I saw no conceivable outlet for the information.

In the dim past I've read more than a couple of Pierre Verlet et al. articles on the French revolutionary sales. Now that's an interesting historical episode, where you wouldn't be struggling at each step with hoi polloi.--Wetman (talk) 14:20, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Well I have a some late 19th century antique sale catalogues with quite a lot of furniture and statuary provenanced to Versailles. Sadly though I suspect if all the furniture provenanced to Versailles were assemble it would furnish the chateau several times over. I just think it is time to bite the bullet and sort the page, I shall try and do a history in pictures and diagrams as much as possible. I always have my immaginary 14 year old reader in mind. The "conoisseurs d'art et les objects" can go somewhere a little more highbrow than Wikipedia. Giano (talk) 14:46, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Like the Hamilton Palace sale? Some of those legendary provenances actually panned out, after Verlet linked the invenory numbers painted on the backs, and the branded château marks (crowned V for Versailles), with the inventories of the Garde-meuble and the detailed bills. In some cases the Revolutionaries printed catalogues too. --Wetman (talk) 15:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The Sun King

I have a secondary source for this quote "Since we are God's divine agent it is fitting that we should share in his wisdom as well as in his authority." have you an authoriative primary source or better still the origial French? It explains the man's psyche and Versailles's. I'd like to use it to explain some of the excesses. Giano (talk) 20:45, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm sorry, Giano. I don't know where I'd begin looking.--Wetman (talk) 15:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Dacia - Deutsch, dava - dorf ?

Hello Wetman, following on from the discussion page regarding Leto, I was wondering what you make of my notion that the words Dacia (pronounced in Romanian ~ Dutcheeah), Deutsch and Dutch are related? The Dacians and Getians were neighbours in what is now Romania and the Republic of Moldova, and later we see Dacia and Gottie appearing respectively as names for what is now Denmark and lower Scandinavia (Dan-Ska and Ska[n]-Dan[-avia] to put it differently) in Germanus' map from 1482 entitled "Tabula Moderna Prussie Livonie Norbegie et Gottie". This, I consider may well be linked to the Dan-ube river which saw the zweihand-falyx-weilding Dacians and other Celtic and Germanic tribes as neighbours, as part of a loosely related continuum right along the Don-au river which even in antiquity must have been a trade route.

The Dacian suffix -dava means town, fort, as in Mol-dava, Pirobori-dava (similar to fir-bolgi-dava or [hy]per-bori-dava) or modern-day Turda (also known as Thorenburg to the Saxons of Transylvania) which some in Romania consider derives from Tur-dava. The word -dava is transformed as -para in Thracian (Tur-[acian]) place names - could it be that it survives in its IE relative, Deutsch as -dorf? I note that Zurich derives from Turicum which according to Wikipedia may derive from 'Turīcon, from the Gaulish personal name Tūros' as is also the Tyrrhenic (Tur-enic) language family to which Rhaetian and Etruscan ([e]Tur-scan) belong.

Densusianu in chapter XIX notes that depicted on Trajan's column, the Dacian mountain fortress under seige by the Romans (Ramni) has the lower part of its walls made up of polygonal shaped blocks, similar to those of the Etruscans and Pelasgians. I've read in other books what follows, that, according to Charles Textier, 'Pelasgi' comes from Sanskrit Valasha and Bellasca ('land of Bala' [Pala?]); Tomaschek in his work, the Old Thracians, says that the Thracians were called Belasci/Balasci/Balascae in the first half of the Middle Ages; Prof. Breianu in his work, Pelasgian etymologies shows an evolution Pelasg->Belasg->Blac->Vlah.

Is the word Wallachia ('Valahia' in Romanian) related to Valhala? And what of Biblical Havilah - Hilava? (Jilava - Romanian for moist, and a place name)? River Purat - River Prut (Romanian-Moldovan border)? Black Vlahs fought migrating Tatars in the Persian Chronicle of Rashid Eddin Fadal Allah (1250-1304) where the Black Vlahs are called "Kara Ulaghi". The coat of arms on some old maps of Wallachia depicts three black heads (Swarzkopf, Sag-giga) wearing red headbands (Egyptian and Nubian priests wore headbands) on a green background.

Funnily enough SUMER read right to left as was normal in antiquity reads REMUS.

Sorry about the rambling, any feedback would be very appreciated.

Regards, Gabrieli (talk) 11:20, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Alas, with etymology, one can't jump back and forth over stretches of time, adducing examples from distantly connected cultures and achieve a sensible result. The modern pronunciation of Dacia is immaterial: when did the hard c become soft? that would be the first question. The Danube was indeed a trade route from Neolithic times, perhaps earlier. The source given at Danube is "Danuvius, Celtic *dānu, meaning 'to flow, run'". The article Old European hydronymy will interest you: what does Hans Krahe, Unsere ältesten Flussnamen, (Wiesbaden, 1964), say of this? There's likely to be material there that should be reported in Wikipedia. Many other Dans like the tribe of Dan are coincidental.

As for the suffix -dava, I'm sure it's been well studied. There is also the sideways linguistic phenomenon of "contamination". And not all similarities of phonemes are more than coincidental: you might be misled to relate it, for example to the -daff of Welsh Llandaff, or to Davos. Vlachs and Valhalla?Authentic etymology, like genealogy, proceeds in a chain of carefully attested links. Beware of etymologies that "prove" something, particularly such inherently controversial things as Urrecht. The article Dacianism could be made more frank than it is, with sourced statements, but that would be strenuously resisted, I am convinced. --Wetman (talk) 15:02, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

interestingly, M. Astour connected Hebrew Dan to the Greek Danaoi-Danaans (you might be aware of that, so, sorry), though id take some of his ideas with a pinch of salt even after the last 15-20-year (re-)appreciation of greek and near eastern connexions (well...if anyone really stopped considering them despite various grand declarations...). M. Sakellariou in his les proto-grecs has some interesting opinions on *Dan- as well... 85.74.234.7 (talk) 23:34, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

as for pelasgian vlachs and dacian as proto-latin...no comment 85.74.234.7 (talk) 23:49, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

The point to understand about Dan and Danoi is that on the one hand the supposed connection is strengthened by material culture— Mycenaean pottery and locally-made Canaanite imitations of Mycenaean pottery— but on the other, a historical structure built on such a supposed connection would be a house of cards.--Wetman (talk) 15:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC).

Thank you very much Wetman, plenty here to ponder. I shall seek works of Herr Krahe. Speaking of possible linguistic 'contamination' I was surprised to find in the in the List of Dacian plant names the word for chamomile Amalusta, having seen *lusta as proto-Celtic for plant; I also like the Deva Victrix nowadays Chester link with Deva, Romania. As for Dacianism, it looks like it could take a while. I consider it noteworthy to dissect the Romanian language, as in some regions they still use words related to vulgar Latin, rather than taking holus bolus words used by the majority. This to me implies a mixing of refugees (in the aftermath of the Fourth Crusade and Kaloyan's moving of substantial numbers of people from Thrace etc. up north) together with population remaining from colonial times and not forgetting the use of Latin as the lingua franca by the many ethnicities residing in the area.
As for Dan, I vaguely recall a paper showing genetic links between Myceneans and populations to the north, also that the Philistines when moving to Canaan were strict in denying iron working technology to the Hebrews there, the Cananites (Phoenicians) may also have appealed to the populations of western Anatolia and further, along the Black Sea coast and into central Europe (Shelly Wachsmann in To the sea of the Philistines) to counter the Hittites. So there is a faint link in a sense between the land of Dan and the Dan-ube (Dawn-ube, or Ister [Easter] river - sorry I just couldn't resist!). Regards, Gabrieli (talk) 14:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

There's nothing pejorative about contamination used in the linguistic sense, though your distancing quotes might suggest otherwise. Do be cautious of drawing conclusions even from sound genetic studies: they can be ridden as a hobby-horse as facilely as etymologies.--Wetman (talk) 14:12, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Points taken, however I was mirroring your usage of the marks as a sign of friendship, I did then go on to say I also liked ... I enjoy seeing the interrelatedness of cultures. Cheers, Gabrieli (talk) 06:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Reply to 83d40m talk page about Tethys

Hey buddy, I posted a really long message at (talk) . If you really decide to keep deleting my work, then will I advice you to please convert to Christianity. Because if you delete my work, then don't you believe in Tethys and are you basically a heretic guilty of desecrating the Gods.

Please first visit (talk) and "carefully read the contents" i posted there.

Phalanxpursos (talk) 13:05, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

gasp! ..."'Buddy' indeed!" you may be inspired to say, O Gentle Readers. For fitful illumination, as by flashes of lightning, concerning the above, those of you with perhaps too much leisure and an appetite for comedy may want to visit Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring and look for the heading Wetman reported by Phalanxpursos (Result: no vio). Hurry! All too soon it will be archived. --Wetman (talk) 19:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

'approved'

For my approval, I should find that insulting :P

Seriously though, I'm pleased you clarified one of my stubby starts. I'm afraid that good prose is not given as high a priority as getting the facts on to the page, and double checking other stuff. I usually attempt this when I come back to them, or I ask someone sensible to copyedit and proofread my work. I avoid including things that are not explicitly stated in sources, but I have no objection to the inclusion of the explanation of Pseudechis. Cheers, cygnis insignis 13:50, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Though I often omit the tag, every edit is for the approval of other editors, particularly those more competent than I: their numbers are legion. Yes, getting the facts down is the first importance. Smooth, clear, densely-worded idiom can be achieved by those such as I, whose knowledge in the field is merely general. Alert me if you want me to run through anything: my amateur specialty is freshwater fishes, for I am the Skeptical Aquarist. --Wetman (talk) 15:55, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

That was well-intended, though on rereading it does sound rather self-congratulatory and priggish. Not my real qualities I hope...--Wetman (talk) 16:07, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Not at all, you have identified one of the reasons our community produces good content. I try to make stubs that are not completely useless, you helped me do that in this instance.

Freshwater fishies eh, I think I've got one of those [shuffles papers] that I've been meaning to expand [more shuffling, drops antiquated reference, curses], but the notes are now a bookmark somewhere. You might run your eye over Lepidogalaxias salamandroides, although its habitat is not exactly 'fresh' water. If you check it against the article at tolweb you will notice there are at least 5 amazing facts that have not been included in our article. Nice to meet you, and thanks for the link to your cool site. Let me know if you want second opinion, or copyedit, yourself. cygnis insignis 17:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

An amazing fish, in a habitat— "acidic pools of water in heathland peat flats"— that I could not have imagined in Western Australia! The mere thought of a pH down to 3.0 makes one's mouth pucker. Nice to meet you, too!--Wetman (talk) 19:40, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Nehushtan: "Jewish Encyclopedia is not a credible source".

The Jewish Encyclopdeia is over a century old and is not cited by serious scholars. It is only use extensively on the Internet because it is in the public domain.

As for the assertion made that the assumption is not contested is absurd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yosefsimcha (talk • contribs) 14:19, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

The statement by Emil G. Hirsch and Schulim Ochser in the Jewish Encyclopedia that the above editor does not like is: "The assumption that the tradition about "Nehushtan" is not older than the time of Hezekiah is, however, not contested." The Jewish Encyclopedia is greatly to be preferred to an unsourced opinion to the contrary inserted by the above editor, who furtively re-edited the statement as if it were supported by the Jewish Encyclopedia, which is, by the way, a more scholarly and critical equivalent of the Catholic Encyclopedia, a widely used source at Wikipedia and also in the public domain. Yosefsimcha's brief edit history does not include any previous edits at Nehushtan. --Wetman (talk) 15:23, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Jacob Faber

Could you very kindly look some time at the other 2 pages of this: Dodgson, Campbell, The Engravers on Metal after Holbein, The Burlington Magazine, Vol. 83, No. 488, Holbein Number (Nov., 1943), pp. 282-285. JSTOR , & add any morsels of biographical information on Faber. I can only see the first page, which had some details I did not have elsewhere. I can find many books he worked on, but I'm not going to list all those. He is set up as a ref. Many thanks! Johnbod (talk) 01:21, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

PS: Stern fish lady would only let me buy 5 zebra danios to start. But since they seem to be thriving, i'm allowed to return. Johnbod (talk) 01:21, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

She's wise on your behalf: until the bacterial cycles are established, ammonia levels may become subtly toxic.

H. Koegler's article on Faber in Thieme-Becker is noted in the article you mention: Thieme-Becker's unavailable to me, but perhaps not at the "bod". Dodgson had some further remarks on Faber's posthumous reputation, which I've added as a further section. Most of his brief article is devoted to reproducing designs by IF and CV. --Wetman (talk) 04:00, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Johnbod (talk) 13:35, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Wetman...I was considering buying retirment plot to build on near Cali Columbia until I read your cution re Crime ..What would you recommend

Hi

I am 61 this March and seriously considering a nice warmer spot to live November to April ( 6 months per year)...

I have looked in Bordeaux region and NE Italy where I have relatives ....also looked at Panama, Columbia etc...

I am targeting spending about $150-200k CDN for a project

Any wise thoughts & choices for me based on your own research

Don`t think I can buy an English country home for this price

Thanks in advance —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.138.237.141 (talk) 13:58, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I've deleted your website to save you spam. I haven't cautioned anyone about crime in Cali.--Wetman (talk) 14:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

comment at Ostia Antica

Tact, you say? This fragile reputation was put at risk this morning when I was fool enough to return to the Talk:Triple Goddess page, where I see you made some early efforts to add a section on the concept in antiquity. The current effort ought to be called "Neopagan doctrine of the Triple Goddess", or "Triple Goddess (Neopagan)". Even the lower case "triple goddess" redirects to this narrowly focussed page, despite the fact that many Wiki articles (in some cases incorrectly when they mean a triad) refer to a triple goddess of antiquity. The hijackers seem unmoved by my links to respectable scholars who use the phrase (what classicist is more high-profile than Mary Beard?), nor do they care for my list of Latin texts using precisely the phrase "triple goddess" (singular, with adjective meaning "triple" or "three-form", with which you are familiar from Diana Nemorensis — thanks also for your comment on the coin images). Do you think the solution is "Triple goddess (antiquity)"? Not sure it's worth the trouble. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:55, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure either. Neopagans do show the very same toxic effects as other religionists. I dropped Triple Goddess from my Watchlist some while ago. Triple goddess in Antiquity would doubtless shuck the tiresome "Goddess People": worth a try. --Wetman (talk) 15:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll try to add some material when I circle back to this topic again. Sorting out the question of goddess triads from the diva triformis will require some care. The opaque reasoning for excluding antiquity from the page seemed to have to do with ... I don't know. The greater number of New Age books that show up on a Google search, compared to scholarship. That students might be looking for material for a class project instead of seeking doctrinal clarity seems not to have occurred to the self-appointed Gatekeeper. I share your views on the problems of religionists and scholarship, and at the same time would point out that even within Neopaganism there are those who use ancient texts to inform their chosen spiritual paths. So even on grounds of contemporary practice (for which an encyclopedia is not a missal) there's no reason to exclude the ancient material. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:31, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Aah, but you're thinking inclusively, as a historian and a rationalist, a point-of-view that doesn't even requires a Gatekeeper. We seem to be in the same boat, and rowing in the same direction. --Wetman (talk) 17:40, 11 March 2009 (UTC).

Upstream, it seems. Cynwolfe (talk) 03:29, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Northern Mannerism

Since you've picked up the trail, any additions very welcome here. Johnbod (talk) 18:11, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Mannerism

Blimey! I did a double-take there - we've both been at it, from different ends. I think the new sections should be combined as "In print and the decorative arts" maybe. I'm off now for a while, so do carry on if you were going to, & thanks. Johnbod (talk) 00:36, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I was just babbling away, trying to get some material and some names into the article, without worrying too much about supporting it with the requsite citations etc.--Wetman (talk) 01:43, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks (for your comment on mine). I wanted to add you to the dyk, but thanks to my tabloid hook it was already in the queueing system. Do you know about moresques? I've chanced my arm on the charming & useful 1611 sense, but I can't confirm that specific use from modern sources, whereas some people use it just for interlace or arabesques. Books on English silver often use the term without defining what they mean by it. Johnbod (talk) 15:21, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Hagar Qim

Thanks for your work to the Excavations section! It still needs fleshing out, but you've done a great job making it less messy. ja fiswa imċappas bil-hara! (talk) 02:31, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I have access to JSTOR, so let me know if I can track anything down for you. I say that because you've come forward with such a professional article on such an interesting topic. --Wetman (talk) 02:47, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, the article has had lots of input and is starting to take shape. There unfortunately isn't much information about Maltese prehistory on Wikipedia, I've tried fixing that. Re JSTOR I'll be sure to forward anything elusive! ja fiswa imċappas bil-hara! (talk) 05:08, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Cornelia Africana Major

A couple of years ago I started the article on Aemilia Tertia, wife of Scipio Africanus. In April of 2006 you found a picture on Cornelia Africana Minor (born ca. 190 BC - died 100 BC), the second daughter of Aemilia Tertia and Scipio; mother of the Gracchi brothers. Great picture! I am now looking for some good detailed information on Cornelia Africana Major (fl 174 BC), first daughter of Aemilia and Scipio. She was born approximately 201 BC. I asked User:Wikibiohistory, the person that entered the information that is now on the Aemilia Tertia article about her, however this is all the information he knows. Do you have clues or ideas where I could find additional information on Cornelia Africana Major.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 11:38, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Doug, I searched "Cornelia Africana Major" at JSTOR and came up empty. That means the three words together have not appeared in any of the peer-reviewed journals archived at JSTOR. At least you know you're not missing anything published, Is there a prosopography of the Roman Republic? I don't know one.--Wetman (talk) 17:26, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for looking at JSTOR, great idea! User:Botteville, who has edited Scipio Africanus quit a bit, suggested I look at Google Books for Cornelia Africana Major, looking especially for Polybius, Livy, Diodorus Siculus and Pliny the Elder sources. So far I have found references from Polybius and Livy of Cornelia Scipionis Africana, mother of the Gracchi brothers. Nothing on Cornelia Africana Major. I have not been able to find anything further than what User:Wikibiohistory has found and entered into the Aemilia Tertia article I started. I have a source at the Library of Congress and asked her that question - so far no answer. I don't think the NYPL would be any better source. I'll keep probing around and looking in Google Books. Any particular University come to mind (i.e. University of Virginia)? The IPL also didn't find anything either. I started a stub and we will see what happens. I like anything I can find out related about Scipio. I find his life very fasinating!--Doug Coldwell ^talk 19:03, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Versailles

As you know, I am working on my version of Verailles, i was hoping to retain quite a lot of the old, but various facts in the old don't seem to tie in with my sources, what is concerning me is this one "Louis XIV hoped to extract more control of the government from the nobility, and to distance himself from the population of Paris, as a consequence of this, all the power of France emanated from this center: Thus it was that the chateau not only housed government office, but also provided appartments for courtiers, their retinues, and all the attendant functionaries of court. <ref:Solnon, 1987/ref> This seems to be oft repeated, but my sources say that he had already acheived all of the above, left Paris for St Germain and Fontainebleau with his court and government; so he was, in my opinion, just building bigger to better house what he had already acheived - do you have a view? Giano (talk) 19:54, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

You have a point, Giano, though I wrote a former version of this I think. The court didn't irrevocably move to Versailles until 1682, when this policy of Louis' had been in effect for decades. Louis detested St-Germain, I recall (shades of his mother and Mazarin?) Was his court ever at Fontainebleau for more than a yearly hunt, the voyage de Fontainebleau?--Wetman (talk) 17:59, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, my new book, which I strongly recomend to you ("Versailles, biography of a Palace" by Tony Spawforth - the most fascinating social history book I have read for years) says he spent 10 months at San Germain so presumably the other two months were elsewhere including Fontainbleau, it seems Louis just expected his court to follow - and they did. I had a tour of Verailles last month, and was able to ask some in depth questions to the curator, it seems most of the court lived in near squalor there, it was freezing cold and they hated it. Looking at some of the attics and rooms normally off the tourist track, it's easy to believe. Duchesses added mezanines, in secret at their own expense, to already not very high rooms just to make extra space. While in the arcades and corridors people just releived themselves, apparently there are millions of letters from agrieved grandees to the various Kings complaining about sewage, squalor and everything but luxury. I think I shal spend my time on this page and try to do a good balanced job between architecture and social history. Giano (talk) 19:06, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Louis XV's jolis nids de rat weren't actually those at Versailles, I seem to remember. Whose remark was that? I saw his modest private apartments at an impressionable age. My pvt. feeling about the article "Palace" [sic] of Versailles has been like the old Yankee trying to give road directions: finally, "You can't get there from here."--Wetman (talk) 20:32, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I did/do not feel confident enough to start with a blank sheet, perhaps eventually there won't be a lot left, I'm not sure at the moment, I am still fact checking, an inline cite, sos not always prove something correct. One thing I am 100% sure of though, is that it's the Chateau de Versailles, palatial it may be, it may even be a palace in the eyes of many, but it is officially a chateau, and Wikipedia does not have the right to change that! Giano (talk) 21:38, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Interlude

I was requested to rattle off a few words here Hampton Court Palace and have duly obliged, my references, to hand, are a little limited in the subject - anything you would like to add? - I have re-written most of it, except the contents section - contents are never my strong point. It could do with some authoritive architectural comment - Summerson seems a little opinionated about the palace! Also have read so much Versaiiles literature in the last few weeks, I am concerned I am seeing it everywhere! Giano (talk) 10:51, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Giano, it's like old times! I went over Hampton Court Palace carefully with my new discovery, spellcheck. I did concentrate the Charles II vs Versailles bit, as the notable French palace for Charles II would have been Saint-Germain-en-Laye, and the real competition should be reserved for Wm III's efforts. And ahem I fixed "Giovanni da Maiano". The Huguenot cabinetmaker John Pelletier needs an article, and I'm the one to do it: I'll get to work on it right now.--Wetman (talk) 23:49, 28 March 2009 (UTC).

• Thanks, the di's and the da's that is what comes from careless copy pasting - I, needless to say, am a "di" so like to extend the courtesy. I cannot honestly say I had ever heard of him before, a gap in my education no doubt. For some reason every time I attempt to google him, I am invited to apply for a lottery for a "green card" to the USA; I keep saying I don't want one, but it still won't tell me what I want to know. Giano (talk) 00:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Like Pietro Torrigiano, he looms in the foreground only from an English perspective. Here's a start on John Pelletier: so much more is known about him than the last time he crossed my field of vision, that I'm delighted to be brought up to date...--Wetman (talk) 01:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Very nice page. Sadly though, it caused me to click on Boughton House, now that really should be improved, the trouble is I have heard that too likened to Versailles - perhaps I am finally going mad - I see the blasted place everywhere. Giano (talk) 21:48, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Further interlude

Looking to prove my case about Thomas Archer (and failing) I found this pretty little place languishing unloved and covered in templates and POV - so I've smartened it up a little and changed its name. Trouble is the sole "scholarly" reference I have is Pevsner - have you anything to widen it up a bit? It has some horrible 1950s institurion additions and something more recent by a architect trying to be clever and failing; very hard not to comment with some of my own POV "not always in sympathy" and "contrasting" was as far as I dared to go. Thanks for the help on Hampton Court, at leat one is abit more repsectable now. Giano (talk) 15:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

PS:Do you think there is a little bit of Petit Trianon about it? Giano (talk) 15:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

• Great stuff, very interesting too. Giano (talk) 19:32, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

File:PontormoStJohn.jpg listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, File:PontormoStJohn.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. Niels^{? en | nl} 20:57, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

A bizarre interruption

Can I please request that you assume good faith and perform your own checks on content before accusing people of vandalism or classifying articles as nonsense, as you did here. Chrome Talent (talk) 23:24, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Note this was a May 2005 edit! Johnbod (talk) 15:39, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Chrome Talent is simply a sockpuppet created expressly to insert this harassment by an experienced editor quite rightly ashamed to do so under their usual account name. The diff concerned I appear to be using a template of which I was unfamiliar in order to identify as deletable nonsense the following article, created by User:62.255.64.9 (see User's contribution history), which I quote in full:

The Groom of the stool was someone who had the pleasure of cleaning the royal rear. One must not forget in Tudor times the king was God on earth and cleaning his rear was as good as cleaning God's. The job obviously sounds repulsive but it was a prized job in those times since you spent alot of time with the king.

--Wetman (talk) 18:13, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

John Vardy

Thank you for creating John Vardy. Nicely done! Kingturtle (talk) 23:55, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your edits on Empire Building

I appreciate the help in improving my text. dm (talk) 07:16, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Carding

Thanks for making improvements to Carding (torture). I'm wondering of "later mentions..." needs the "" tag as it is referring to the material in the "Notable victims" section and that is referenced. Best wishes. --Boston (talk) 02:36, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I had been dubious, having overlooked Herodotus' mention, and thought I should improve the article as penance! What do you think? Any specific published text the reader could be alerted to?--Wetman (talk) 02:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Robert Henderson Robertson

I also agree that Robert Henderson Robertson is important, which is why I began the article. I have an AIA Guide too, what I don't have is the biographical reference book of American architects. What I think needs to be added to his article is more addresses to all of his buildings. -- K72ndst (talk) 11:07, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I can do the addresses when I come back later today. And I'll see if I can't give a very brief description of each building. My AIA Guide is 1968, a first edition I think! I really ought to buy a fresh one eh. How are your camera and downloading skills, neighbor? Mine are too poor. --Wetman (talk) 11:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I found a treasure trove of commissions with their dates in a Landmarks Preservation Commission document, which I added as a footnote.--Wetman (talk) 16:42, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Not confused

I like your changes on Medea but am confused by your thinking that I am not genuine. I am reading much on wiki land now to improve "PR." Much love for the New Year. Linguistixuck (talk) 02:07, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

(Wetman replaced former text about "confusing" versions of the Medea story [confusing for those attempting a consistent "biography"] with a section at Medea, "Personae of Medea". --Wetman (talk) 02:18, 9 April 2009 (UTC))

Your talk in third person is more fun at my expense? I do not understand why so smart are so unkind! My girl friend Lira says you are making fun. What is wrong with this place? This was good edit you made and now fun as well? Still, my love for New Year. Linguistixuck (talk) 14:02, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

(Wetman edits text. Wetman does not edit people. Wetman wishes you a very happy 2010.-Wetman (talk) 14:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC))

I thank you for editing my text and not editing me. :) :) :) I do not much want to be edited! Still, I wish I understood why you are so thusly! Much love for the New Year. Linguistixuck (talk) 00:52, 10 April 2009 (UTC)