User talk:Nlu/archive79

Tuoba

I need the family tree of the Tuoba family of Northern Wei and Western Xia. Is the Western Xia family directly descended from the same family as the Northern Wei rulers? Rajmaan (talk) 00:43, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

That's a complicated series of things to discuss. Let me answer/ask a few things back in response:

1. Whether the Western Xia ruling family was descended from the Northern Wei rulers — my own opinion is, "Absolutely not" (as there is no logical way for that to occur — the Northern Wei Tuoba/Yuan were thoroughly sinicized, and they were, at the time of Northern Wei's fall, part of the elite in the Central Plains. Even with slaughters by both Northern Qi and Northern Wei, large branches survived and were part of the elite in the Sui/Tang times, such that it is incomprehensible that anyone who might have left that environ could have become the rulers of a small tribe under Tufan centuries later. Further, the only historical source that really kinds of asserts it is the History of Liao — in a single sentence. Even if somehow true, it's not really supported with any evidence.
2. A reconstruction of the Western Xia family history (real or claimed) is hampered by the fact that, as a dynasty that never conquered China and was eventually wiped out by the Yuan fairly thoroughly, there is very little left in the Chinese records about it; we are left with five volumes combined in the three histories (Song's, Liao's, and Jin's), such that it is not even traceable back to the Tuoba chiefs of the middle/late Tang very well. Even the Five Dynasties part of the family tree is relatively poorly attested. That having been said, do you want me to render whatever there is in those three works and try your hand at reconstructing it?
3. A reconstruction of the (claimed) family tree for the Northern Wei ancestors, however, is possible all the way back to Tuoba Mao (18 generations before Tuoba Gui); in fact, the Chinese Wikipedia has a nice template that lists them all. What do you want me to do there? List them?

Let me know what you want me to do. --Nlu (talk) 01:40, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I need a listRajmaan (talk) 19:50, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

OK. (I assume you mean that Northern Wei ancestors.) I am currently in trial, but will have a break for New Year's and 1/2. I'll try to do it sometime during those days (or the weekend). Please remind me if I forget. --Nlu (talk) 01:19, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Here they are. No relationships were explicitly stated for the earliest ones in the Book of Wei; presumably they were father-son, but the Book of Wei could have explicitly stated that and chose not to. (Of course, there are later historians who think that these early ancestries were all fabricated, but I actually think there was no reason to fabricate.)

• Tuoba Mao, posthumously honored Emperor Cheng
• Tuoba Dai, posthumously honored Emperor Jie
• Tuoba Guan, posthumously honored Emperor Zhuang
• Tuoba Lou, posthumously honored Emperor Ming
• Tuoba Yue, posthumously honored Emperor An
• Tuoba Tuiyin, posthumously honored Emperor Xuan
• Tuoba Li, posthumously honored Emperor Jing
• Tuoba Si (not to be confused with the next one or the later Northern Wei emperor), posthumously honored Emperor Yuan
• Tuoba Si (not to be confused with the last one or the later Northern Wei emperor), posthumously honored Emperor He
• Tuoba Ji, posthumously honored Emperor Ding
• Tuoba Gai, posthumously honored Emperor Xi
• Tuoba Kuai, posthumously honored Emperor Wei
• Tuoba Lin, posthumously honored Emperor Xian
• Tuoba Jiefen, son of Tuoba Lin, posthumously honored Emperor Shengwu
• Tuoba Liwei, son of Tuoba Jiefen, posthumously honored Emperor Shenyuan with the temple name Shizu
• Tuoba Shamohan, son of Tuoba Liwei, posthumously honored Emperor Wen
• Tuoba Xilu, son of Tuoba Liwei, posthumously honored Emperor Zhang
• Tuoba Chuo, son of Tuoba Liwei, posthumously honored Emperor Ping
• Tuoba Fu, son of Tuoba Shamohan, posthumously honored Emperor Si
• Tuoba Luguan, son of Tuoba Liwei, posthumously honored Emperor Zhao

Tuoba Luguan divided his people into three parts. He ruled the eastern part himself. He gave the other two parts to two sons of Tuoba Shamohan:

• Central: Tuoba Yiyi, son of Tuoba Shamohan, posthumously honored Emperor Huan
• West: Tuoba Yilu, son of Tuoba Shamohan, posthumously honored Emperor Mu

Upon Tuoba Luguan's and Tuoba Yiyi's deaths, the three parts were reunited under Tuoba Yilu, who was the first Duke of Dai (and then Prince of Dai). After his death, the rulers all continued to carry the title of Prince of Dai.

• Tuoba Pugen, son of Tuoba Yiyi (not posthumously honored)
• Son of Tuoba Pugen, unnamed in historical sources, who died in childhood
• Tuoba Yulü, son of Tuoba Fu, posthumously honored Emperor Pingwen with the temple name Taizu
• Tuoba Henu, son of Tuoba YIyi, posthumously honored Emperor Hui
• Tuoba Gena, son of Tuoba Yiyi, posthumously honored Emperor Yang

During Tuoba Gena's reign, he was overthrown by the chieftains and replaced by Tuoba Yihuai, son of Tuoba Yulü, posthumously honored Emperor Lie. Later, Tuoba Yihuai was himself overthrown, and Tuoba Gena returned. Tuoba Gena was later overthrown again and again replaced by Tuoba Yihuai.

That takes us to the last Prince of Dai, Tuoba Shiyijian, son of Tuoba Yule and younger brother of Tuoba Yihuai, posthumously honored Emperor Zhaocheng, with the temple name of Gaozu. Officially, Northern Wei's founder Tuoba Gui was the grandson of Tuoba Shiyijian, with Tuoba Gui's father Tuoba Shi (posthumously honored Emperor Xianming) having predeceased Tuoba Shiyijian. However, other sources suggest that Tuoba Gui might actually be the son of Tuoba Shiyijian and that Tuoba Shi was a manufactured person to avoid acknowledging that Tuoba Gui overthrew Tuoba Shiyijian and surrendered to Former Qin.

Any other information needed? --Nlu (talk) 17:38, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Is there any information on the Kings of Gaochang (especially the last ruling family, the Qu 麴) and on the Dali Kingdom? I found English sources which say that they claimed their ancestors were Han people from Gansu. Is it in the Book of Tang (for the Qu family) and where is the genealogical information for the Duan family located? Qu Jian's mother is said to be a Turk from the Tujue in english sources, from which Chinese source is that information located?Rajmaan (talk) 04:34, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I think both are really out of my expertise area (and, in the case of Dali, a substantial part of its history is out of my expertise period (Han to Five Dynasties, roughly)). That, and my lack of current access to any real research libraries, leaves me pretty much with the official histories. As far as Gaochang is concerned, as far as I can see, of the official histories:

• Book of Jin does not have a volume or part of volume on Gaochang.
• Book of Song has a very minimal amount of information on Gaochang in volume 98, which was largely about "the Di" - i.e., Chouchi - and "the Hu" - i.e., Northern Liang.
• Book of Southern Qi contains no real information.
• Book of Liang, volume 54 lists two kings: Qu Jia (King Zhaowu) and Qu Zijian (son of Qu Jia).
• Book of Chen contains no information.
• Book of Wei, volume 101 lists these kings:
  • Kan clan
    • Kan Bozhou (the first king, created by Rouran)
    • Kan Yicheng, son of Kan Bozhou
    • Kan Shougui, son of Kan Bozhou, older brother of Kan Yicheng, killed by Gaoche king Kezhiluo (Azhiluo in Book of Sui and History of Northern Dynasties)
  • Individual kings
    • Zhang Mengming, created by Gaoche, later assassinated
    • Ma Ru, later assassinated
  • Qu clan
    • Qu Jia
    • Qu Jian (note that Book of Liang refers to him as Qu Fijian); Book of Wei said that after that, communications were cut
• Book of Northern Qi contains no information.
• Book of Zhou, volume 50) listed Kan Bozhou, Kan Shougui (which it asserted was a nephew, not a son, of Kan Bozhou), Zhang Mengming, Ma Ru, Qu Jia, and Qu Jian. It then gave some additional names:
  • Qu Xuanxi, son of Qu Jian
  • Qu Mao - who had been Gaochang's Duke of Tiandi (the Book of Zhou explained that Gaochang had two dukes under the king, the Duke of Jiaohe and the Duke of Tiandi and that they were generally the sons of the king) but who was not otherwise given a familial relationship
  • Unnamed king - may or may not be Qu Mao - who offered tributes subsequently
• Book of Sui, volume 83 listed Kan Bozhou, Kan Yicheng, Kan Shougui (which it also asserted was a nephew, not a son, of Kan Bozhou), Zhang Mengming, Ma Ru, Qu Jia, Qu Jian - and then diverges from the Book of Zhou
  • Qu Boya, son of Qu Jian
• History of the Southern Dynasties, volume 79 listed Qu Jia and Qu Zijian
• History of the Northern Dynasties, volume 97 listed Kan Bozhou, Kan Yicheng, Kan Shougui (asserted to be nephew and not son of Kan Bozhou), Zhang Mengming, Ma Ru, Qu Jia, Qu Xuanjia, Qu Mao
• Old Book of Tang, volume 198 started with Qu Boya, whom it asserted to be the sixth-generation descendant of Qu Jia - which makes some sense, but which means that there was a three-generation gap between Qu Mao and Qu Boya. Then:
  • Qu Wentai, son of Qu Boya
  • Qu Zhisheng, son of Qu Wentai, who surrendered to Tang, ending Gaochang (which was turned into Xi Prefecture) - although his brother Qu Zhizhan was later the prefect of Xi Prefecture, and Qu Zhizhan's son Qu Chengyu was given the title of Prince of Jiaohe, but it was said that after Qu Chengyu the Qu clan did not receive any further titles
• New Book of Tang, volume 221, part 1 gave the same account as the Old Book of Tang.

I'll try to look at Dali next, but again, outside my area and time of expertise. --Nlu (talk) 17:00, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I've looked at the scattered descriptions of Nanzhao/Dali; I think, assuming that you're referring to the post-initial-Nanzhao period, I am going to be of no help here because the Chinese official histories have very little usable information. --Nlu (talk) 17:09, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Category:Israeli military personnel who committed suicide

Category:Israeli military personnel who committed suicide, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 12:05, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Ming dynasty Chinese-Malay dictionary

This book contains a Malay vocabulary list from the Ming dynasty . Look at number 66- . The Wade giles transcription transcribes the Chinese characters as "ya ta yên ting" which is "ya da yan ding" in pinyin. I looked at the characters and they appear to be 瓦 亞答根丁. But 根 is gan, not yan. 亞答根丁 is the transcription of the Malay word "atap gĕnting". Did I get the 根 character wrong, or did the scholar who wrote this make the mistake.?Rajmaan (talk) 01:57, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Beats me. I looked at the Taiwanese Ministry of Education dictionary to see if there are alternative pronunciations, and it didn't give any other one, so that's not it. Moreover, in Cantonese, it's also "gan," it appears, so that doesn't explain it either. --Nlu (talk) 02:55, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I suppose one possible (but I find unlikely) explanation: the Ming imperial family was from Fengyang, in Anhui, and initially, the capital was in Nanjing. Could be a Wu/southern Mandarin pronunciation? (As I am unfamiliar with Wu and not sure how it influenced southern Mandarin, I can't be certain.) (根 would be gen, not gan, in Mandarin pinyin, by the way.) --Nlu (talk) 03:01, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Beitou article name

Thanks for the message about the Beitou article name. In retrospect, I shouldn't have moved it without an RM but I probably didn't look at the other district articles at the time. I would prefer an RM but it's not a big deal. To me, having "District" after every article is excessive and while it follows Chinese-written-language style, it's not very idiomatic in English (or in spoken Chinese for that matter). It is a good idea for generic names like Zhongshan and Zhongzheng but Beitou has been around for a long time (long before it was a district) and is notable in English literature as "Beitou". In the case of Taipei, nobody would say, "I'm going to Zhongzheng", but would say "I'm going to Beitou". Wikipedia doesn't need a one-size-fits-all approach here. —  AjaxSmack  21:48, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

@AjaxSmack: OK, thanks. I do understand it although I respectfully disagree. (Part of it is that there is a difference between writing in prose - where I do agree that keep referring to "Beitou District" is awkward - and the name of the article. What I am going to do then is to submit a WP:RM and see what the consensus is. I'll abide by the consensus. --Nlu (talk) 21:53, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

I didn't mean that "Beitou" is only a spoken or running text form. Histories, tour guides, &c. use this as a title well. But thanks for the heads up. —  AjaxSmack  22:03, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Chinese Language

Hi, Nlu. I know that you are one the Chinese Wikipedians who work for the chinese history-related articles here in Wikipedia. Just out of curiosity, do you speak mandarin or cantonese, or both? I just wanna know you speak mandarin or not..because chinese is not just one language, I mean it's various languages like Hakka, Gan, Minnan, Mandarin and Cantonese(as mentioned above). 198.72.229.27 (talk) 03:16, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I speak Mandarin relatively fluently. My Taiwanese is not as good, but passable. I don't speak Cantonese. --Nlu (talk) 03:35, 6 February 2015 (UTC)