E-mail is enabled on my account, but before using it to contact me please be aware that:

  • I think that, on principle, all wiki communication should be open for all to see
  • Therefore if you send me an e-mail, you should assume that I will publish it on an appropriate talk page, in order to reply to it there
  • If you think there is a good reason to contact me, in confidence, by e-mail, you should first ask for my agreement not to publish it.
  • I will only agree to this for a very good reason, for example copyrighted material which cannot be freely published.

In any case, I am likely to respond more quickly to a request on my talk page than one by e-mail.

Don't worry if you want to send me an e-mail that has nothing whatsoever to do with Wikipedia; if that is the case, then there is no reason why I should publish it here.

Oliver KammEdit

I appreciate your comments on Oliver Kamm's talk page. Although I have other pressing tasks to attend at the moment, I'll eventually return to the discussion. Also, don't let TJive intimidate you. He's nothing but a bully. Sir Paul 06:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

It's ironic, though. I have long regarded Kamm as a pretentious fool who isn't worth a minute of anybody's time trying to read him -- which is why I've been reluctant to get drawn in. Yet I'm still wasting time on him...--NSH001 15:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
update: (after 12 years!) Kamm is so ludicrous I find it hard to take him seriously. The trouble with Kamm goes back a long, long way – long before I was on Wikipedia (can't remember when, exactly, but it was in the days of dial-up modems that blocked your phone line, and might give you download speeds of 5 Kbytes/sec if you were lucky). I still think it a waste of time dealing with him, but I suppose it was only a matter of time before Kamm's malign influence would blow up so spectacularly on Wikipedia and lead to an Arbcom case (June 2018).[i] Worth reading Brian Leiter's classic piece from November 2005. --NSH001 (talk) 10:47, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
more: There are many sources on Kamm's foolishness that can easily be found in a google search. I note the following two only because Philip Cross has been working hard to keep them out of Kamm's page:
--NSH001 (talk) 17:00, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
  1. ^ For the avoidance of doubt, I am clear that Kamm is not Philip Cross, although he has certainly influenced the latter.
A non-entity publicly, intellectually, and yet he has a wiki page. One can't edit it appropriately because he is under the radar that captures serious things.Nishidani (talk) 19:17, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
I decided to keep those few sentences from 2006 at the top (i.e., tell the bot not to archive them) partly because it's nice to have a record of when I started editing Wikipedia (well, not quite - it's the first ever message on my talk page, though) and partly because I quite like having a mildly derogatory remark about Kamm at the top of my talk page. He deserves a much more serious condemnation, but WP:BLP wouldn't allow it (rightly so, I think) and in any case posting negative stuff tends to be counterproductive. Plus he's really not worth the effort. --NSH001 (talk) 20:12, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Citation and referencing styleEdit


Consensus at WPMED is to keep refs generally over one line. Please do not switch them to over many.[1] Best Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:13, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Doc James, I am thinking very long term here. Most larger wiki articles are effectively rendered uneditable by the presence of numerous long, horizontally formatted templates (LHTs[a]); the only edits feasible on such pages are trivial changes such as spelling corrections, or automated edits where the script/bot doesn't care about the formatting.[b] Of course this is just my opinion, but I do know several other editors share my dislike of long, horizontally formatted citation template clutter (LHT clutter). As well as making the wikitext unreadable, such templates also make it very difficult to find and correct errors in the citation templates, or indeed in anything else.
It doesn't surprise me that the Wikimedia Foundation finds it necessary to spend large sums on things like Visual Editor, given that the mess resulting from long, horizontally formatted templates makes directly editing wikitext so user-hostile. I want to see a wiki that is clear of all this clutter, but that is going to take several years to achieve. In the meantime I am effectively banned (without having commited any offence) from many, perhaps most, articles because of citation clutter. Hence I am (slowly) developing a private script to help in this task. I call the script "ETVP" for "Easy To Visually Parse", because wikitext should be nice and easy to read. I aim eventually to make it easy, using the ETVP script, to switch to short-form referencing, or to LDR, or to some combination of the two, or indeed to anything else that will reduce or eliminate citation clutter. It was not originally my intention to leave ETVP templates in-line, but when I first tried it I was surprised at how much more readable the wikitext became, so my current thinking is to retain it as an option (the main disadvantage appears to be that it is too easy to turn it back into horizontal formatting, as you have demonstrated!).
I am relaxed about not edit-warring with you on this, although I do think making the wikitext harder to read is irrational. Partly this is because the ETVP script is still a long way from being finished, but the main reason is that my focus is on the long-term, and edit warring on individual articles is of no benefit in that aim. I have always anticipated there will be some resistance to in-line ETVP templates, simply because people don't like change, or just get upset by unexpected change, or by anything surprising. I note that most WPMED articles are of a scientific or academic nature, where short-form referencing is the natural style. Once I've got the ETVP script working for that style, then I believe it could be very useful for the WPMED project.
--NSH001 (talk) 21:18, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
The majority of the editors at WPMED like the references over one horizontal line rather than over dozens of lines.
Yes there is a minority who like it over dozens of lines. I find having it over one horizontal line is easier to edit not harder.
What we need is an option / gadget so that those who want it over one line when they hit edit get it over one line and those who want it over many lines get it over many lines. That means win-win for everyone as everyone gets the way they find makes it easiest for them to edit. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:27, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Look more carefully. ETVP is not "dozens of lines" (per cite). I think you might be referring to the (not very wonderful) "vertical" format that you get in the template documentation; even then (provided you eliminate the blank parameters), it rarely amounts to "dozens" of lines. The ETVP script has been carefully thought through to give you what it says on the tin: it uses the minimum number of lines and white space while still maintaining clarity. Roughly, items that logically belong together go on the same line, important items go at the top (title, authors) and references (for example, identifiers) go at the end (a bit like wikipedia article layout). The aim is to take advantage of the human visual system, which works orders of magnitude faster than the rest of the brain. This makes it very easy to spot errors, often instantly; in addition, you'll often spot errors you weren't even looking for in the first place. This is impossible to do if the template is strung out over two or more lines (by lines, I mean lines on the edit window, not the single line you're referring to), buried in a mass of other wikitext. I think one reason why cite templates are so badly infested with errors is precisely this difficulty of spotting errors in the horizontal layout. But what makes the horizontal layout even more annoying is the difficulty of spotting the beginning and end of the same template, especially if there are large numbers of horizontal cites buried within the same paragraph. With the ETVP format, the eye can again spot the beginning and end of a template instantly. So not only does the horizontal format make it difficult or impossible to spot errors in the cite templates, it also makes it difficult or impossible to follow the "flow" of the article text itself. To see this, try an experiment: (a) open in edit mode the version of the article before my edit, and try to read out loud the article text from the wikitext, then (b) do the same with the wikitext after my edit. Notice how much easier (b) is!
Take a look, in edit mode, at Muhammad Najati Sidqi#References and Khazars#References. These are examples of the the work of the ETVP script on articles that were already using short-form referencing. Notice how easy and pleasant it is to read the citation templates there. Although I intend to implement LDR first, my aim (eventually) is to make it easy to switch articles to short-form referencing, with all templates in ETVP form. This is my preferred referencing style, and the most natural for scientific, technical and academic articles. But basically, the ETVP script will eventually let editors use any referencing style they like, as long as it doesn't involve long, horizontally formatted templates.
Note that ETVP is not the same as "vertical". Short templates are actually easier to visually parse if they are "scrunched up" (eliminating all unnecessary spaces) and kept on the same line. The ETVP script recognizes this, using a cut-off of 50 characters (this seems to work well so far, but it could be easily tweaked if necessary). Perhaps the fans of horizontal templates are aware of this, but then wrongly assume that it applies regardless of length. The general principle is that short templates are fine if they're kept on the same physical line, but the longer the template, the stronger the case for a vertical or ETVP format. For an extreme example, see this egregious edit, which I don't think anyone would want to defend.
One might also note the contrast with infoboxes, which are already, mostly, more-or-less in a vertical format, with one parameter per line. Editors don't have any problem editing infoboxes. So in my view, the difficulty some editors say they have with editing ETVP or vertical format is imaginary, not real. Probably they've just gotten used to the default that they get when they click the "cite" button on the edit window or from using most of the standard cite-generating tools. And why should they care? For most editors, adding cites is just a tedious but necessary chore, to be done with minimum effort; they care about the info they're adding, not the errors they're creating or the messy wikitext they're leaving behind.
--NSH001 (talk) 11:10, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
P.S. The idea of a gadget seems like a good one, except I'd want it to appear in an ETVP format, not the vertical one.

Notes on the Syntax highlighter gadgetEdit

Jonesey95 has suggested the syntax highlighter gadget as a possible solution to the near-impossibility of reading and editing pages full of LHTs.[b]

Initial thoughts:

  • The default setting is far too cluttered; in particular, there is no need to highlight wikilinks. However it is possible to customise it so that only templates are highlighted. This works, and is actually quite useful.
  • However, this is moot for those who, like me,use an external editor for most of their editing.
  • It doesn't distinguish nested templates, in contrast to the ETVP script, which indents templates to mark the depth of nesting.
  • In any case, this problem is so fundamental that we shouldn't need to depend on a gadget to fix it.

Conclusion: better than nothing, but not really a solution to the problem. By providing a makeshift patch that papers over the problem, it reduces the pressure to get the problem fixed properly. It does mark the beginning and end of templates clearly (very good!), but the ETVP script also does that. The ETVP format also makes it easy to spot errors instantly, and the highlighter is of no help in that regard. --NSH001 (talk) 21:51, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Further thoughts:

  • The gadget doesn't work on diffs (and wasn't intended to), but templates in ETVP format are still easily distinguishable in diffs.
  • Not distinguishing nested templates is a major drawback, especially in Infoboxes where cite templates are common. Not a problem when using ETVP, as the script uses indentation to indicate nesting.
  • There is no need to highlight short templates (that's just unnecessary visual clutter). In my view only templates EITHER longer than about 100 characters OR which wrap around lines in the edit window need to be highlighted. Of course, the ETVP script takes account of template length, but it has no way of telling when a template is going to line-wrap. But note that templates in ETVP format are designed so that they usually won't line-wrap, except for long URLs or long quotes or exceptionally long article or chapter titles. Even then, the line-wrapping is restricted to the long piece of text, and does not affect the readability of the rest of the template.

I vaguely remember trying some sort of highlighter or edit-helper several years ago,[c] and rapidly rejecting it as too cluttered and too distracting; if my memory is correct it also suffered from a lot of bugs. In contrast, I can see that I might sometimes use this highlighter, even though most of the time I will have it turned off. The author of this highlighter, Remember the dot, deserves some thanks and credit for the thought and effort he or she has put into this script. It's obviously useful to many editors, but it's not a solution to the problem of LHT clutter. --NSH001 (talk) 09:44, 1 March 2017 (UTC) and NSH001 (talk) 10:32, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Let's get the terminology rightEdit

I have seen other editors (not just Doc James), when talking about this infuriating problem, use the phrase "over one line" to refer to horizontal cite templates and "over many lines" to refer to other formats.

Yes, it is true that the annoying LHT format only occupies one physical line of the computer file. But to use "over one line" in the context of a discussion of the merits of the different formats is very misleading. On the actual edit window that real-life editors use, it also occupies many lines. The difference is that the LHT format will line-wrap at unpredictable positions, depending on where in the text it occurs, what font size is being used and the width of the edit window, among other factors. At least the line-breaks in the "vertical" format are predictable (making it more readable than the LHT format), while the ETVP format is specifically designed to make it as readable as possible.

Incidentally, this problem of line-wrapping is one reason why, generally, I don't mind manually formatted citations; as long as they don't contain long URLs, or other long items, they will usually fit into one line of an edit window, so they don't disrupt the readability of the wikitext in the same way that LHTs do. (I have mentioned elsewhere that there are compelling reasons for preferring templated citations, of course.) There is another reason why manual citations are generally acceptable in the body of an article: they are still in a narrative format, so (unless they contain a long URL) they fit in quite naturally with the rest of the article. Very different from cite templates, where the important task for the editor is to visually parse the argument-value pairs (updated December 2017).

--NSH001 (talk) 15:53, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

What's so bad about long horizontal template clutter (LHT clutter)?Edit

  • It puts off new editors from joining Wikipedia. See self-selection below, and my responses to Doc James above.
  • It violates every principle of sound coding practice. Any professional computer programmer who wrote code like this would soon be out of a job, or more likely, would never be taken on in the first place.
  • It obfuscates everything. Similarly, at school I was taught how to write English properly. If I had written an essay in such an unstructured, amorphous form I would have received a big fat ZERO as my mark for such an essay. If you (generic) write English without any structure, the result is incomprehensible. The same applies to wikitext.
  • It causes errors because errors are so difficult to spot and to correct in LHTs.
  • It causes even more errors because LHT clutter makes it difficult (almost impossible) to follow the natural flow of the article text within the wikitext.[d]
  • It makes diffs hard to follow. It's bad enough trying to read wikitext cluttered with LHTs, but the problems are multiplied when you (generic) are trying to establish who has added or deleted what in a diff.
  • It sets a bad example. New editors will usually just copy the techniques they find already being used, so, not surprisingly, the result is a cancerous expansion of the usual steaming heap of unreadable and uneditable text.
  • Summary: it makes editing Wikipedia difficult, slow, error-prone and very, very unpleasant. The problem is so bad, so annoying and so infuriating that either LHT clutter has to be gotten rid of (preferably completely), or I will leave Wikipedia. The reason is obvious: how is it possible to edit anything cluttered up with LHTs, when this clutter, apart from the exceptions footnoted below,[b] makes editing impossible?
  • Conclusion: LHT clutter should be  E . X . T . E . R . M . I . N . A . T . E . D.[e]

The paradox: if LHT clutter is so bad, then why are most articles using this style?Edit

Well, I really don't know. It baffles and perplexes me that anyone could possibly tolerate this mess. But any strategy for getting rid of LHTs needs to address this paradox. Some possible explanations:

  1. Self-selection. The WMF has been worrying for years about the long-term decline in the number of active editors. Not that surprising really, when someone new to Wikipedia opens up a page in edit mode and discovers an amorphous, unstructured, smushed-together, incomprehensible and almost unreadable heap of steaming LHT doo-doo. So the small minority that's left, and which heroically persists in trying to edit Wikipedia, has, for the most part (not all, and certainly not including me), self-selected as those who can somehow tolerate LHT clutter.
  2. False perception of authority. People assume that, simply because it is so common, LHT clutter must somehow be "right", or "officially approved", or the "standard" citation and referencing style, although per policy (WP:CITESTYLE), there is no one, single, standard citation style on Wikipedia. All this despite the fact that LHT clutter is the worst possible citation and referencing style.
  3. Lack of exposure to better citation styles. Some editors are simply unaware of better alternatives: they may dislike the clutter, but just assume it's something thay have to put up with. Or they may be aware of better alternatives, but then find it takes a lot of time and effort to change the citation style (plus they may then have additional battles based on WP:CITEVAR).
  4. Unfamiliarity with academic citation styles, especially among editors who haven't had a university-level education.
  5. Poor citation-generating tools. These have plenty of faults and shortcomings. Among their faults is that they offer only the LHT clutter style, or if they do offer a choice, it is between so-called "vertical" and LHT, with LHT clutter being the default. The "vertical" form, as given in the template documentation, isn't that great either, but it's still a huge improvement over LHT clutter. None of them offer an ETVP form as a choice, of course, since ETVP is a new concept. Since the default option is the easiest one to choose, the result is that the LHT dungheap just keeps on growing.
  6. Poor citation template documentation (in fact, most of the citation template documentation is quite good; I'm referring here to the distinction between "vertical" and "horizontal"). The "vertical" style offered as an alternative to the LHT clutter format in the template documentation is very poor (but still a huge improvement on LHT clutter). It obviously hasn't been properly and thoroughly thought through though.[f] I will discuss this in more detail in the ETVP documentation, but see my responses to Doc James above for a brief outline. This may partly explain why editors (bizarrely) choose the LHT clutter format instead.
  7. Syntax highlighters. My first reaction to Doc James' request above was simply bewilderment and perplexity, since trying to edit LHT clutter is a physical impossibility[b] (well it can be done, but only at the cost of a phenomenal amount of time and effort). Note that for serious editing, I use an external editor (but I do use the standard wikitext editor for small changes, and to preview edits made in the main, external, editor). So I pay little attention to developments in the standard editor or its gadgets. Well, syntax highlighters (if properly configured) do solve one of the most infuriating problems about LHT clutter, namely the extreme difficulty of spotting where an individual LHT begins and ends. I think it's clear that without syntax highlighters, LHT clutter would never survive as a citation style;[g] otherwise editing a page full of LHT clutter is physically impossible. But that still raises questions about what newbies do, since they won't be aware of syntax highlighters. And as I explained above, syntax highlighters still have some drawbacks, and in any case, the ETVP style renders them unnecessary.[h]
    Conclusion: syntax highlighters are like a medication that alleviates (some of) the symptoms, but doesn't cure the underlying disease.
  8. Inadequate wikitext editor. The wikitext editor needs to properly support separation of long citation templates from their inline antecedents, whether it be list-defined references (LDR), parenthetical referencing or short-form referencing. In one click[i] it should enable an {{sfn}} template, or any of its siblings, including any of the harvnb family, to be inserted in the article body and at the same time the corresponding long cite template added, if not already present, in correct alphabetical order, to the relevant bibliographic listing. Similarly for named references and their corresponding entry in LDR.
    As an alternative my ETVP script effectively does this already by transforming a whole article all at once (it still needs polishing, though). The wikitext editor should also allow a single click[i] on an {{sfn}}/{{harvnb}} or named reference to bring up the corresponding long template in a popup for easy editing.
    I guess the first suggestion is too difficult and impracticable to be worth the effort, especially if we already have a script to do the job. So I'd like to limit myself to just two small suggestions, that should be possible without too much effort:(updated, December 2017)
    • A popup to show the corresponding full citation when a short-form cite is "clicked"[i]
    • Toggle the size of the edit window (edit box) between the standard size and full screen, or full screen with only minimal menus and toolbar.[j]
  9. Perhaps the most obvious explanation. Amazingly, Wikipedia, through its HELP tools, actually teaches the LHT clutter style to beginners. So does the WMF through its volunteer editors who help newbies come to grips with how to edit Wikipedia (very useful work, apart from this one aspect). This needs to change, so that newcomers are made aware of the problems created by LHT clutter, and of the available alternatives. (added, June 2019)

--NSH001 (talk) 07:39, 16 June 2017 (UTC)


  1. ^ "LHTs" may also be read as "long horizontal turds", to reflect the revulsion they induce.
  2. ^ a b c d In my experience, there are three small but important exceptions where it is sometimes possible to edit such pages, despite the presence of LHTs:
    1. trivial changes, such as spelling corrections (but this can still be difficult, slow, and unpleasant)
    2. all automated and most semi-automated edits. This includes, for example, edits made via a script, or by pressing an "undo" or "rollback" button.
    3. if there are substantial parts of an article that are free of LHTs. For example, it is sometimes possible to edit the lead or Infobox, since these can be relatively or completely LHT-free. Similarly it is possible to edit categories and navboxes at the end of articles (a place where LHTs almost never occur).
  3. ^ From memory, this was wikEd, which I think was the only available tool at the time to offer syntax highlighting.
  4. ^ Syntax highlighters can alleviate this problem, but using ETVP formatting is a better approach.
  5. ^ I am old enough to remember the first broadcast episodes of Doctor Who. On a black & white 405-line TV set receiving analogue signals broadcast on Band I VHF, no less. Anyone remember those big H-shaped aerials that marked out the houses of those families who could afford to buy a television?
  6. ^ Sorry, I couldn't resist the alliteration!
  7. ^ For the avoidance of doubt, I am not interested, even with the availability of syntax highlighters, in the survival of LHT clutter as a citation style; I want it to disappear completely.
  8. ^ Editors may still, of course, have valid reasons for wanting to use a syntax highlighter. The point is that ETVP means that syntax highlighters are no longer needed to deal with long templates, but syntax highlighters may still be needed for other reasons.
  9. ^ a b c possibly a click or double-click together with a control key, or combination of control keys
  10. ^ This should reduce the incentive for editors to use the LHT clutter format, since the reason usually offered for preferring LHT clutter is that the "vertical" form takes up too much screen space. Well, the ETVP format uses less screen space anyway compared to the documented "vertical" form, but let's give editors more space when they need it.

What are "turd templates"?Edit


A turd template is another name for a Long horizontally formatted template (LHT) as defined above. As explained above, LHTs make editing difficult or impossible (with some exceptions), in addition to being undesirable on general grounds.

Opening, in edit mode, an article full of LHTs is like entering a house where every previous visitor (editor) has left a "deposit" all over the floor. Hence the name.

--NSH001 (talk) 22:28, 3 May 2018 (UTC)


The dungheap citation style is another name for the LHT clutter citation style. Note that I am being too kind to LHT clutter here: dungheaps can be composted into useful, sweet-smelling fertiliser that can be used by farmers to help produce healthy, nutritious organic food. By contrast, the stink of LHT clutter is permanent until the turds are flushed away, or otherwise disposed of.

--NSH001 (talk) 10:23, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

any fixesEdit

on oz indig articles would be appreciated and thanks - my opibion of the current state of the range is unprintable, unfortunately, so thanks, appreciate any tinkering to help improve JarrahTree 13:47, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. My wiki-time is limited, and my main priority lies elsewhere, but I will do what little I can. It's not a big deal to run my script, though I can easily get sucked into investigating obvious discrepancies, which does consume valuable time. --NSH001 (talk) 14:37, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Books & Bytes – Issue 35, July – August 2019Edit

  The Wikipedia Library

Books & Bytes
Issue 35, July – August 2019

  • Wikimania
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On behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 06:58, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Precious anniversaryEdit

Six years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:50, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Gerda, your kind thoughts are always very much appreciated!
I can't believe I took so long to respond! Sorry!
--NSH001 (talk) 10:16, 18 October 2019 (UTC)


Thanks for this edit of yours at Gweagal, restoring long-standing citation style at that article. You may or may not be aware that the anonymous editor is an IP-hopping, block-evading troll, just blocked (again) minutes ago. See for example the discussion User talk: pattern of edits, which also lists some of their many other IP aliases, some blocked, most not. (Just found another alias for this IP editor today due to the Gweagal article: They were the one responsible for these edits that you cleaned up earlier the same day you reverted the other alias.)

Please keep an eye out for this white-space and template-variation block-evading troll, and revert and/or leave Talk page messages as appropriate. Thanks again for your continuing efforts at Wikipedia. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 22:35, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words, but I really don't do very much. I'll revert vandalism if I see it on my watchlist (remarkably little - vandals and me seem to have few interests in common; I've also noticed that even the drunks who used to vandalise Scottish articles on Friday/Saturday nights (UK time) seem to have disappeared), and my ETVP script (see the long pinned thread above) makes it easy to maintain citation style. On Gweagal, I was glad that the IP editor didn't try to edit-war, and I just assumed that he or she might have actually read, and taken heed of, the links I provided.
(Sorry to wander off the topic, but the whole thing is so outrageous I'm finding it difficult to think of anything else.) At this moment, I'm wondering what to do about this kangaroo court, reminiscent of stories coming out of the USSR when I was a boy growing up some 60 years ago. The (mis-)treatment of an innocent man, amounting to torture, breaks every fucking legal rule in the book, but our so-called "mainstream" media is remarkably silent on the massive human rights abuse of a good man, yet they are fully capable of pointing out human rights abuses in countries they don't like. It's crystal clear to me that the time has come to revise Wikipedia's rules on "reliable sources"; taking account of the propaganda function of the media would be a good place to start. Jeez, even RT is more reliable on this farce. --NSH001 (talk) 01:18, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
It's the old story. Close your eye to what we do outside our 'civilized' borders, and the abuse will, dunam by dunam, come back to roost in our own backyards. Unfortunately, this is unstoppable. The young-middling generations are going to have to wear what we were taught about the first half of the 20th century. 'Never again' has lost the initial 'N'.Nishidani (talk) 16:26, 4 November 2019 (UTC)


Thank you for sending me the advice. I have done this page in paragraph form, putting lists of awards or publications under see also as you suggested. Would you take a look at it?Toandanel49 (talk) 13:50, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Replied on Toandanel49's talk page. --NSH001 (talk) 06:33, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

What am I doing wrongEdit

In trying to post my edit request at Talk:Jewish Israeli stone-throwing, which only manages to erase a lot of existing talk text?Nishidani (talk) 14:33, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

  Done, see [2]. Nishidani - it's possible your ping to El_C didn't work because of the cock-up, so you might want to ping him again, unless you're sure he's watching the page anyway. --NSH001 (talk) 15:08, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

A survey to improve the community consultation outreach processEdit


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Books & Bytes – Issue 36Edit

  The Wikipedia Library

Books & Bytes
Issue 36, September – October 2019

Read the full newsletter

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 05:21, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Just on a small technical issue, NeilEdit

Why is is necessary, with a named author of an article like Humaid, to drop sfn and replace it with harvnb (as here). The sfn version, when clicked on, gave the ref in the citations and the bibliography without problems. (Of course, I'm as thick as a brick, and no doubt you will tutor me in the obvious:) Nishidani (talk) 20:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Well, not strictly "necessary", but the idea is to save a click: with a standard citation, you click on the superscript in the text, which takes you to the short citation; then a click on the short citation takes you to the full citation (two clicks).
By contrast, under the old system for an efn-type note, you'd click on the superscript letter, then another superscript (this time a number), then again on a short cite to get to the long cite (3 clicks); with the new system, the final two clicks are reduced to one – you don't lose anything, as you still see the short cite with page # (if any). This is, in fact, a sneaky example of parenthetical referencing (see Actuary for an example of its use throughout a whole article). It has the additional advantage of reducing the number of entries in the list of short citations, especialy if there are a lot of efn-type notes.
The most common objection to parenthetical referencing is that it obstructs the flow of text in the body, but this doesn't matter if the parenthetical cite is at the end of the note. That's why only the final short cite is parenthetical, and then only if it's right at the end. At some time in the future I might change it to make consecutive short cites at the end all parenthetical, but I have no intention of changing superscript cites in the middle of a note to parenthetical.
Does that make sense? -- NSH001 (talk) 20:48, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Not to me, no, it doesn't quite 'click' but I am sure it does to those with a fluent competency in such technical matters, who have invariably reason on their side and morons like myself, thought committed to enlightenment principles, must make an exception in such cases and adopt a fideistic trust that all such adjustments are for the better, because they trust the wise who perform them:(/ :)! Nishidani (talk) 21:56, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Hee hee, Nishidani, well in that case, forget my blether above and just get your mouse out, and start clicking, then it should become clear and eventually "click"! Incidentally, your first sentence should read "harv", not "harvnb" ("nb" = "no brackets", the opposite of parenthetical). BTW, it could equally well be "harvcol" instead of "harv". Thus, "harv" gives (Smith & Jones 1995, p. 25) while "harvcol" gives (Smith & Jones 1995:25). I've used both in the past, do you have a preference? --NSH001 (talk) 07:17, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
There you go: further proof in my reply with its error that I'm thick-witted. Your second clarification has me harv in mind to girdle the loins and battle down my dumbness in order to wrest a skerrick of insight from this technical matter. Thanks, pal. Nishidani (talk) 09:57, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Google Code-In 2019 is coming - please mentor some documentation tasks!Edit


Google Code-In, Google-organized contest in which the Wikimedia Foundation participates, starts in a few weeks. This contest is about taking high school students into the world of opensource. I'm sending you this message because you recently edited a documentation page at the English Wikipedia.

I would like to ask you to take part in Google Code-In as a mentor. That would mean to prepare at least one task (it can be documentation related, or something else - the other categories are Code, Design, Quality Assurance and Outreach) for the participants, and help the student to complete it. Please sign up at the contest page and send us your Google account address to google-code-in-admins@lists.wikimedia.org, so we can invite you in!

From my own experience, Google Code-In can be fun, you can make several new friends, attract new people to your wiki and make them part of your community.

If you have any questions, please let us know at google-code-in-admins@lists.wikimedia.org.

Thank you!

--User:Martin Urbanec (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2019 (UTC)


Please do not restore SPIs after a CU has closed them. I’ve reviewed the technical evidence, and do not believe that the behavioural evidence is strong enough to overcome doubts raised in the technical details. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:10, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

TonyBallioni Then why didn't you say so before closing the case in the first place? It's a gross discourtesy to close a case like this without an explanation. I really don't think that you can conceal the fact that something very, very fishy is going on here. --NSH001 (talk) 23:21, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
Closing with no action means there is not sufficient grounds for a block. I intentionally left it at that for a reason: controversial cases involving real people are best closed without comment in my view, regardless of if it’s a block or no action. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:26, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
For the record, I don't think your explanation is adequate. Also for the record, and for ease of referencing, here is a permalink to the case so that readers of my talk page can check for themselves. --NSH001 (talk) 23:51, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
It is not fishy, and certainly not "very, very fishy" for an SPI case to be closed without action. A check was performed, there wasn't sufficient evidence for either of us to make a block. Therefore the case was closed. I don't know what more you expect, or what you're suggesting by calling Tony's actions "fishy". ST47 (talk) 00:09, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
I said as much on the case page ("something very odd is definitely going on here", which is another way of saying "very fishy"). And why does someone supposedly innocent of the charge fail to defend him or herself? When I left a polite, and I hope friendly, message on his talk page encouraging him either to confess if he's guilty, and thereby gain leniency, or to defend himself? That fact, on its own, is fishy indeed. How many "innocent" alleged sockpuppets have you come across who fail to defend themselves? Can you not see why that is so fishy? Quite apart from the fact that the edits themselves are such a close imitation of Cross's. The only difference I can see is the editing volume and frequency. For clarity, the "fishy"-ness I am referring to is not your or Tony's actions, but the whole behaviour of NomdeA. --NSH001 (talk) 00:49, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
Most subjects of SPIs say nothing at the SPI, innocent or guilty. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:50, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Season's greetingsEdit

  Happy Noam Chomsky Day!

Hi NSH001, wishing you a Happy Noam Chomsky Day. Thank you for the work you have put into maintaining the Noam Chomsky article throughout the year and on its road to GA. Our resource helps 1.7 million annual viewers learn about a living humanitarian who's done so much to promote human rights and understanding.

Happy editing,
czar 08:53, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Czar. Still a long way to go on that article. --NSH001 (talk) 13:08, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Assange, the kangaroo court, and worseEdit

First, some remarks copied from above:

(Sorry to wander off the topic, but the whole thing is so outrageous I'm finding it difficult to think of anything else.) At this moment, I'm wondering what to do about this kangaroo court, reminiscent of stories coming out of the USSR when I was a boy growing up some 60 years ago. The (mis-)treatment of an innocent man, amounting to torture, breaks every fucking legal rule in the book, but our so-called "mainstream" media is remarkably silent on the massive human rights abuse of a good man, yet they are fully capable of pointing out human rights abuses in countries they don't like. It's crystal clear to me that the time has come to revise Wikipedia's rules on "reliable sources"; taking account of the propaganda function of the media would be a good place to start. Jeez, even RT is more reliable on this farce. --NSH001 (talk) 01:18, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Sources on Assange (only a start; this is going to be a very long list):

  • Caitlin Johnstone, "Debunking All The Assange Smears", medium.com, 20 April 2019. Also available at caitlinjohnstone.com. Lengthy (Medium says it will take you 73mins to read, not counting the 112mins of video embedded there) but it's far and away the best overall survey of the topic I've seen.
  • The excellent Caitlin Johnstone's work on Assange isn't restricted to her tour de force above, far from it. Here's some more:
    • Johnstone, Caitlin (23 January 2020). "Empire War on Oppositional Journalism Escalates". Consortium News. In exactly the same way we saw a coordination between the U.S., U.K., Sweden, Ecuador and Australia to immobilize, and then silence, and then imprison Julian Assange, we are seeing a uniform movement toward silencing oppositional journalism throughout the entire U.S.-centralized empire. On similarities between the US's nefarious activities in Brazil and the Assange case. Also available at caitlinjohnstone.com
    • Johnstone, Caitlin (29 February 2020). "To Be Assanged: Notes From The Edge Of The Narrative Matrix". medium.com. Murderous governments who deceive their citizenry are not entitled to any degree of secrecy whatsoever. More quotes:
      • "Ever notice how there are no “Don’t Free Assange” rallies? No “Extradite Assange” activist forums? That’s because the only normal human beings interested in his case want him free. It’s the Free Assange crowd versus the “Thinking about that will cause me cognitive dissonance” crowd. The only grassroots energy regarding Assange is on his side. The entire other side of the debate is (A) governments and their lackeys and (B) the propagandized masses who have been manipulated into staying silent and compliant as the empire works its will."
      • "Debunking smears is all well and good, but the actual Assange case isn’t about smears, it’s about a question: Should journalists be punished for exposing war crimes?"
      • "Per the Assange extradition argument the Saudis should be allowed to extradite and behead anyone who practices blasphemy."
    • (sub-list to be continued)
  • Gabe Rottman, "Special Analysis of the May 2019 Superseding Indictment of Julian Assange". Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. 30 May 2019.
  • Imperialism on Trial - Free Julian Assange event (Part 1 of 2). Held on 11 June 2019 at "the Crypt on the Green", the crypt of St James's Church, Clerkenwell, London. A part-transcript of the two events, courtesy of Catherine Brown, can be read here. List of speakers follows; links go directly to the start of each speaker's contribution.
  • Imperialism on Trial - Free Julian Assange event (Part 2 of 2). Held on 12 June 2019 at St James's Church, Clerkenwell, this time in the main church, not the crypt where the 11 June event was held.
  • John Hilley, "Media persecution of Assange and BBC News at Ten's repeated reporting 'errors', Zenpolitics, 23 October 2019.
  • John Pilger, "Did This Happen in the Home of the Magna Carta?", Consortium News. 25 October 2019.
  • "Assange Is The Only One To Abide By The Law", Raul Ilargi Meijer, Zero Hedge, 25 October 2019.
    • "The parading into a courtroom of Julian Assange in London was all the evidence one could need that the UK government breaks its own laws as well as numerous international laws, with impunity. But that is not how the media reported on it, if it did at all."
    • "He [Assange] doesn’t fight the law, he fights the lawless [who are] posing as the law."
    • " And then Monday in court, a British court, it was a bunch of Americans who openly decided what should happen"
    • "If you live in Britain and you think Brexit is a more important issue than Assange, you’re delusional. Nothing is more important to anyone in a society than a government torturing a man to death in broad daylight, a man who moreover has not broken a single law. We don’t even torture mass murderers, terrorists or child rapists to death anymore, at least not at home. But Julian Assange IS treated that way. And whether the UK will be a part of Europe or not, that is the country it has become. A lawless medieval banana republic."
  • Curtis, Mark; Kennard, Matt (14 November 2019). "Conflict of Interest: Julian Assange's Judge and Her Husband's Links to the British Military Establishment Exposed by WikiLeaks". Declassified UK. Daily Maverick.
  • Kennard, Matt; Curtis, Mark (15 November 2019). "The son of Julian Assange's judge is linked to an anti-data leak company created by the UK intelligence establishment". Declassified UK. Daily Maverick.
  • Maurizi, Stefania (18 November 2019). "A massive scandal: how Assange, his doctors, lawyers and visitors were all spied on for the U.S." la Repubblica.
    • Further comments from Maurizi: "2. As a journalist heavily targeted by #UCGlobal which spied on my convos, unscrewed my phones, spied on ALL my electronic devices, it's crucial to make UC Global and the #USintelligence accountable"
  • Craig Murray on Assange: "Swedes should be ashamed of the way they've been played by the CIA", 6:08mins. RT.com. Interview, 19 November 2019.
  • "Abby Martin on Julian Assange, Coup in Bolivia, Bernie Sanders & Gaza" 50:55mins, AcTVism Munich. 21 November 2019.
  • Doctors for Assange, "Concerns of medical doctors about the plight of Mr Julian Assange", medium.com, 25 November 2019.
  • "60+ doctors warn Assange 'could die in prison'. UK & Australia governments do nothing". The Duran, 26 November 2019.
  • Julian Assange Free the Truth event at St Pancras New Church, 28 November 2019. An excellent written report, from Catherine Brown, can be found here.
  • John Pilger, "Visiting Britain’s Political Prisoner". Consortium News. Volume 25, Number 333. 29 November 2019.
  • "Two months before Assange’s extradition hearing, RSF calls for his release on humanitarian grounds and for US Espionage Act charges to be dropped", Reporters without Borders, 24 December 2019. "Reporters Without Borders (RSF) is alarmed by reports that Wikileaks founder Julian Assange’s health has deteriorated in detention, and calls for his immediate release on humanitarian grounds. RSF condemns the continued targeting of Assange for his journalistic-like activities, which sets a dangerous precedent."
  • Nils Melzer, "[BBC] says #Assange 'evaded justice'…". Melzer debunking BBC's claim (incidentally, illustrating why the BBC is not a reliable source on this issue). 13 January 2020.
  • Julian Assange speech that was censored by the Oxford Union 21:03mins. 1 February 2013.
  • Prisoners' revolt and pressure from legal team and campaigners forces Belmarsh to move Assange out of solitary.
    • WikiLeaks statement: "In a dramatic climbdown, authorities at Belmarsh Prison have moved Julian Assange from solitary confinement in the medical wing and relocated him to an area with other inmates. The move is a huge victory for Assange's legal team and for campaigners who have been insisting for weeks that the prison authorities must end the punitive treatment of assange. But the decision to relocate Assange is also a massive victory of prisoners in Belmarsh. Agroup of inmates have petitioned the prison governor on three occasions, insisting that the treatment of Assange was unjust and unfair. After meetings between prisoners, lawyers and the Belmarsh authorities, Assange was moved to a different prison wing albeit one with only 40 inmates. But there remain serious concerns about Julian Assange's treatment in Belmarsh. He is still being denied adequate access to his lawyers as even the judge recognised at a case management hearing in Westminster Magistrates' Court. And campaigners continue to insist that Assange should not be in prison at all, least of all in Belmarsh high security prison. But all that notwithstanding this is an important victory for the campaigners outside and inside the prison walls." - Joseph Farrell, Wikileaks Ambassador. 24 January 2020.
      • still doesn't have proper access to lawyers, nor exercise, nor proper medical care, nor facilities to prepare his defence
      • I fear this will make it easier for him to be "Epstein"-ed, which may be the underlying reason for the apparent concession. I hope not, but it's impossible to overstate the malignant evil of the bastards responsible for this outrage.
  • A series of 5 articles by Lissa Johnson on "The Psychology Of Getting Julian Assange":
    • "Part 1: What’s Torture Got To Do With It?", newmatilda.com, 23 February 2019.
      "In the first part of a special New Matilda investigative series, clinical psychologist Dr Lissa Johnson exposes the ‘science’ behind the hunt for Julian Assange, and the tactics those in power use to keep you in the dark."
    • "Part 2: The Court Of Public Opinion And The Blood-Curdling Untold Story", newmatilda.com, 25 February 2019.
      "In her ongoing special investigation into the detention of Julian Assange, Dr Lissa Johnson turns to the art of smear, and how to corrupt a judicial system."
    • "Part 3 – Wikileaks and Russiagate: Trust Us, We’re The CIA", newmatilda.com, 2 March 2019.
      "In the third of her special investigative series on Julian Assange, clinical psychologist Dr Lissa Johnson sheds a little more light on the ways the world’s most consistently dishonest state has co-opted so many otherwise intelligent people into shooting the messenger."
    • "Part 4: Why Even Some Lefties Want To See Him Hang", newmatilda.com, 15 March 2019.
      "Convinced Julian Assange handed Trump the election? Certain he raped two women in Sweden? Want to see him rot in jail? The fourth in a five-part series by clinical psychologist Dr Lissa Johnson explains the science behind smear and propaganda, and how and why it works."
    • "Part 5: War Propaganda 101", newmatilda.com, 25 March 2019.
      "Ever wonder why left wing trolls hate Julian Assange so much? And why maybe you’re more questioning? Ever tried to get to the bottom of a government-run propaganda campaign and found your synapses misfiring? The final in a five-part series by clinical psychologist Dr Lissa Johnson explains the science behind smear, and how and why it works."
  • Catherine Brown, "The Perversion of Good Impulses to Negative Ends", 5 December 2019. Some notes on how good people can be manipulated to evil ends. The smears against Assange show this process at work.
    • "Relatively unpopular dictatorships like the Greek colonels don’t achieve half as much evil, because they fail to harness half as much good."
    • "Most dangerous of all is the manipulation of the good impulses of the many by the cynicism, or moral madness, of the few."
    • "The impulse to prevent human rights abuses, by states and/or men, is harnessed by political manipulators in support of economic and political imperialism, and wars intended primarily to acquire natural resources and extend military bases at whatever cost to human rights."
    • "The impulse to defend women from male oppression has been harnessed to drain support from Julian Assange on the basis of allegations and investigations which – on inspection – bear very many signs of having been politically motivated."
    • "Character assassination – against Jews, Marie Antoinette, Albert Dreyfus, Julian Assange – invariably appeals to idealism. To the ideals that condemn killing Christian children, committing incest, having multiple mistresses, or committing rape, as wrong. But it avoids appealing to the ideal that someone is innocent until proven guilty. Or that being guilty of one thing – having mistresses – does not prove anyone guilty of another – high treason. Or that weaponization of certain ideals to trample on others should be condemned."
  • Robert Scheer, "The Plot to Discredit and Destroy Julian Assange". Truthdig. 6 December 2019.
  • Oborne, Peter (2019). "He is a hero, not a villain". British Journalism Review. 30 (3): 43. ISSN 0956-4748. But I find myself wondering what exactly the difference is between his alleged crime of publishing leaked US diplomatic cables and the Mail on Sunday’s offence of publishing leaked Foreign Office cables. Why is Assange treated by the bulk of the British media as a pariah? And the Mail on Sunday as a doughty defender of press freedom? After all, Julian Assange is responsible for breaking more stories than all the rest of us put together.
  • Melzer, Nils (31 January 2020). "A murderous system is being created before our very eyes". Republik (Interview). Interviewed by Daniel Ryser; Yves Bachmann. Translated by Charles Hawley. Interview with a high-quality Swiss online magazine. German-language original here.
    • If I had to recommend a single source to anyone unfamiliar with the reality of what has happened to Assange, I think this is the best of all the sources I've seen so far: high-quality, well argued, accurate and credible, by an expert in his field.
    • Melzer is fluent in Swedish and has read all the relevant police and legal records, so he is able to give an accurate account regarding the sex allegations in Sweden.
    • Some quotes:
      • Q: "Julian Assange, they say, fled the Swedish judiciary in order to avoid being held accountable." A: "That’s what I always thought, until I started investigating. The opposite is true. Assange reported to the Swedish authorities on several occasions because he wanted to respond to the accusations. But the authorities stonewalled."
      • "The willful malevolence of the authorities only became apparent when they immediately disseminated the suspicion of rape via the tabloid press, and did so without questioning A. A. and in contradiction to the statement given by S. W. It also violated a clear ban in Swedish law against releasing the names of alleged victims or perpetrators in sexual offense cases."
      • Q: "Why were the British so eager to prevent the Swedes from closing the case?" A: "We have to stop believing that there was really an interest in leading an investigation into a sexual offense." [Read the source for the full explanation]
  • Melzer, Nils; Love, Lauri; Kiriakou, John (31 January 2020). "Exclusive Interviews with Nils Melzer, Lauri Love and John Kiriakou on Assange Countdown to Freedom". CovertAction Magazine (Interview). Interviewed by Randy Credico. 2 hour 8:20min podcast.
    • Starts with some good music and a one-hour interview with Melzer, which clarifies some points in the previous item. Quote starting at approx 1hr 7min (slightly edited): "Don't look for the light somewhere else, just switch it on in yourself and show the world that the light that you can shine on it you know, give an example in your own life, that's what I tell my students: don't look for the light elsewhere, just switch it on and there shall be a light, and the good thing, when everything becomes dark – it can be in the biggest, darkest, blackest room – if you light just one candle, the darkness is gone."
  • Nils Melzer, Formal letter to UK Govt (via UN Ambassador) re Assange case, 29 October 2019. Page 6: "While the practical implementation of procedural rights allows for, and requires, a reasonable margin of judicial interpretation, no objective observer can escape the conclusion that Mr. Assange’s due process rights have been seriously, consistently and deliberately violated in every phase of each judicial proceeding conducted against him in all involved jurisdictions." (emphasis added) Note also the 4 months+ delay in the UK Govt's response to the UN Special Rapporteur's initial inquiry.
  • Another Julian Assange Free the Truth event at St Pancras New Church, this time on 3 February 2020.
  • Lauria, Joe (10 February 2020). "Julian Assange Wins 2020 Gary Webb Freedom of the Press Award". Consortium News.
  • Appeal by 130 prominent Germans:
  • Media Lens, "‘Burned At The Stake’ – The UN Special Rapporteur on Torture Demolishes The Fake Claims Targeting Julian Assange", 13 February 2020.
  • The Prosecution of Julian Assange. CUNY School of Law and Courage Foundation. 15 February 2020 – via YouTube. A panel of experts will confront the dangerous consequences of the US government prosecuting Julian Assange under the Espionage Act of 1917.
  • Pilger, John (17 February 2020). "Julian Assange Must Be Freed, Not Betrayed". Consortium News. I am sometimes asked why I have championed Assange. For one thing, I like and I admire him. He is a friend with astonishing courage; and he has a finely honed, wicked sense of humour. He is the diametric opposite of the character invented and then assassinated by his enemies. Also available on johnpilger.com.
  • Frost, Stephen; Johnson, Lissa; Stein, Jill; Frost, William; et al. (17 February 2020). "End torture and medical neglect of Julian Assange". Letters. The Lancet. doi:10.1016/s0140-6736(20)30383-4. ISSN 0140-6736.
  • Commissioner for Human Rights (20 February 2020). "Statement: Julian Assange should not be extradited due to potential impact on press freedom and concerns about ill-treatment". Strasbourg: Council of Europe. The indictment raises important questions about the protection of those that publish classified information in the public interest, including those that expose human rights violations. [...] Furthermore, any extradition to a situation in which the person involved would be at real risk of torture or inhuman or degrading treatment would be contrary to Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights.
  • Kennard, Matt; Curtis, Mark (21 February 2020a). "REVEALED: Chief magistrate in Assange case received financial benefits from secretive partner organisations of UK Foreign Office". Declassified UK. Daily Maverick.
  • Kennard, Matt; Curtis, Mark (22 February 2020b). "UK minister who approved Trump's request to extradite Assange spoke at secretive US conferences with people calling for him to be "neutralized"". Declassified UK. Daily Maverick.
  • Video of the "Don't Extradite Assange" (DEA) demo on Saturday 22 February 2020. 193mins. Speeches in Parliament Square:
  • Caitlin Johnstone, "We’re Asking One Question In Assange’s Case: Should Journalists Be Punished For Exposing War Crimes?". 23 February 2020.

    And you know what? I think the power behind his [Melzer's] testimony comes from the fact that he realized that he had been duped, and if he, a very intelligent, well read, worldly, informed and educated person could be duped, then anyone can be. No one is immune. Human minds are hackable. We’re all very busy with our lives. We’re all kept busy by capitalism, and very few of us have the time to do what he did and sit down and take a look at the facts and assess them. And even if they did that, even fewer of them have had the courage of their convictions to put up with the social consequences of changing course. Being manipulated isn’t immoral, being a manipulator is. People feel ashamed when they’ve been conned, but it’s not their fault; it’s always the fault of the con man. That’s why fraud is the crime, and being defrauded is being a victim of that crime.

  • Fitzgerald, Edward QC; Summers, Mark QC; Iveson, Florence (24 February 2020). "Opening Summary of Defence Case [In the Westminster Magistrates' Court: Govt of USA v Julian Assange]" (PDF) – via Don't Extradite Assange (DEA).
  • Morning and afternoon case reports (short summaries) by Bridges for Media Freedom:
  • Imperialism on Trial - Free Julian Assange event at St Pancras New Church, London. 25 February 2020. The opening few speakers are all worth watching, not so sure about the later panel discussion.
  • Murray, Craig (25 February 2020). "Your Man in the Public Gallery – Assange Hearing Day 1". craigmurray.org.uk. (Day 1 = 24 February 2020) More on the new version of the kangaroo court. Quotes:
    • "Extradition hearings are not held at Belmarsh Magistrates Court inside Woolwich Crown Court. They are always held at Westminster Magistrates Court as the application is deemed to be delivered to the government at Westminster. Now get your head around this. This hearing is at Westminster Magistrates Court. It is being held by the Westminster magistrates and Westminster court staff, but located at Belmarsh Magistrates Court inside Woolwich Crown Court. All of which weird convolution is precisely so they can use the “counter-terrorist court” to limit public access and to impose the fear of the power of the state."
    • "[District Judge Vanessa] Baraitser of course is but a puppet, being supervised by Chief Magistrate Lady Arbuthnot, a woman so enmeshed in the defence and security service establishment I can conceive of no way in which her involvement in this case could be more corrupt."
    • "There was a separate media entrance and a media room with live transmission from the courtroom, and there were so many scores of media I thought I could relax and not worry as the basic facts would be widely reported. In fact, I could not have been more wrong. I followed the arguments very clearly every minute of the day, and not a single one of the most important facts and arguments today has been reported anywhere in the mainstream media."
      • My comment: a good example of why some of Wikipedia's so-called "reliable sources" are, in certain circumstances, about as unreliable as you can possibly get.
    • "[prosecuting counsel] Lewis had thus just flat out contradicted his entire opening statement to the media stating that they need not worry as the Assange charges could never be applied to them. And he did so straight after the adjournment, immediately after his team had handed out copies of the argument he had now just completely contradicted. I cannot think it has often happened in court that a senior lawyer has proven himself so absolutely and so immediately to be an unmitigated and ill-motivated liar. Yet remarkably I cannot find any mention anywhere in the mainstream media that this happened at all."
      • My comment: need to read the preceding paragraphs in the source to understand this fully, but they are too long to quote here. Again, this illustrates how unreliable some so-called "reliable sources", in some circumstances, really are.
    • plus a lot more worth reading. Note particularly that the breach of lawyer-client confidentiality, on its own, would normally be sufficient grounds for the case to be summarily dismissed.
  • Murray, Craig (26 February 2020). "Your Man in the Public Gallery – Assange Hearing Day 2". craigmurray.org.uk. Day 2 (25 February) at the kangaroo court
    • (further details to be added - even more horrifying than Day 1)
  • Murray, Craig (27 February 2020). "Your Man in the Public Gallery – The Assange Hearing Day 3". craigmurray.org.uk. Day 3 (26 February) at the kangaroo court
    • (further details to be added)
  • Murray, Craig (28 February 2020). "Your Man in the Public Gallery – Assange Hearing Day Four". craigmurray.org.uk. Day 4 (27 February) at the kangaroo court
    • (further details to be added)


Agreed that you need to read outside the commercial media if you want to get a full appreciation of what is happening with Assange. Luckily el pais and la republicca are covering some aspects of the case so that we can get some of the information into Wikipedia. Burrobert (talk) 14:26, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

I suggest writers call the growing number of Western democracies who are going back to the third world model 'hamburger republics'. 'Ham' as in ham actor,etc. Best wishes for the new, even if probably more digusting, year.Nishidani (talk) 13:18, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Interesting (coincidence?) that you should mention "hamburger", as I've been contemplating expanding the (new) Helen Steel article, and other articles associated with the McLibel case. Unlike most peace activists/dissidents, there are some decent sources available on Steel.
The accounts of visitors to Assange in Belmarsh remind me of visiting Brook House, the larger of the two immigration detention centres at Gatwick, the same dehumanization – just more extreme. And I can also see similarities with the psychological effect on my father of three years as a Japanese PoW in the Second World War. But at least my father had the moral support of his comrades, not isolation, as is the case with Assange. --NSH001 (talk) 14:16, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Friday the thirteenthEdit

Well, it looks like this country (England at any rate, but possibly not Scotland) is doomed.

In the 1930s in Germany it was anti-Jewish racism (=antisemitism); today in England it's anti-immigrant racism.

  • The NHS is going to be destroyed, and people still don't realise it.
    • more on how the NHS is being slowly and deliberately destroyed
  • More poverty, more homelessness, more distress, and people don't realise it's coming.
  • More lying and smearing (Johnstone 2019).
  • The end of genuine hope for a better society.
  • We had a chance of a Prime minister with honesty, compassion, empathy and integrity.
  • Instead we get a toxic, repulsive, Prime Minister, a repeated, flat-out liar, incompetent at everything he does except his own self-advancement, regarded as a bad joke by politicians overseas with only a few exceptions, possibly including Donald Trump (actually, I suspect Trump thinks he is a joke, but won't say so until the USA is finally able to cash in on the NHS, causing millions of premature deaths in the UK) (Oborne 2019)
  • The system is rigged to destroy politicians of compassion and integrity.[a]
  • Now watch the bogus antisemitism smears switched off like a light bulb, while real antisemitism goes on unchecked

The blindingly obviousEdit

Given the extraordinary vicious, unprincipled campaign of lying, smears, deceit and deception against Corbyn and the Labour Party, it would not be surprising to find these liars using every dirty trick in the book. Hard to imagine that they would have any scruples about rigging the vote-counting process, probably focussing on the postal votes in about 50 to 100 marginal constituencies. Unfortunately it takes time and effort to dig up the evidence to prove it, but some people are working on it. Watch this space.

A month laterEdit

Quite a good analysis from The New York Review of Books[b][c][d] by David Graeber.

Quotes and notes

  1. ^ "This was an election of two illusions.
    "The first helped persuade much of the British public to vote for the very epitome of an Eton toff, a man who not only has shown utter contempt for most of those who voted for him but has spent a lifetime barely bothering to conceal that contempt.
    "We on the left didn’t lose this election. We lost our last illusions. The system is rigged – as it always has been – to benefit those in power. It will never willingly allow a real socialist, or any politician deeply committed to the health of our societies and to the planet, to take that power away from the corporate class. That, after all, is the very definition of power. That is what the corporate media is there to achieve." (Cook 2019)
  2. ^ " The country is now being governed by a hard-right government placed in power by its oldest citizens, in the face of the active hatred of its increasingly socialist-inclined youth. It’s fairly clear that for the Johnson team, Brexit was never anything but an electoral strategy, and that they don’t have the slightest idea how to translate it into economic prosperity." (Graeber 2020).
  3. ^ "Margaret Hodge, Labour MP for an East London constituency, really set off the summer’s conflagration in 2018 when she denounced Corbyn in Parliament as (in her words) “a fucking anti-Semite and a racist” over a purely technical quarrel over whether all the examples would be included when Labour adopted the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of anti-Semitism; but Corbyn supporters were quick to point out that the two had first tangled over Jewish issues in 1987, when Hodge was head of the Islington Council, and Corbyn, then a young local MP, had joined with Jewish activist groups to stop the council from selling the site of an Orthodox cemetery to property developers. Corbyn actually had a long history of supporting Jewish causes and had worked especially closely with the Haredim community." (Graeber 2020).
  4. ^ "Accusing Corbyn of being personally indifferent, or even sympathetic, to what happened when the floor was opened to everyone was a textbook application of Karl Rove’s famous principle of swiftboating: if one really wishes to discredit a political opponent, one attacks not his weaknesses, but his strengths. Until then, even Corbyn’s enemies had admitted he was an honest man and a dedicated antiracist. Suddenly, he stood accused of being himself, personally, anti-Semitic, and of being a lying weasel for denying it." (Graeber 2020).


It may be because I've had a tiring day (no doubt like so many editors) butEdit

Could you kindly help me by explaining what the red link is doing at the bottom of the citations on the Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry‎ page. I sourced a remark, using Falk 2017 pp.100-109 having read it, and the red text states there's some problem with the content and the source?Nishidani (talk) 18:58, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Ah well, I see that someone else has fixed it already. Pretty obvious that it doesn't make much sense to have sfn within ref.../ref tags. sfn itself works by generating a set of <ref refname=xxxx>....</ref> tags (plus some other clever stuff) and the wiki software doesn't allow one set of ref tags nested within another set of ref tags, hence the error message. Ponder how {{efn}} gets round that one, all good clean fun, as my excellent (Jewish) boss at work used to say, many years ago. Have a good rest and take care. --NSH001 (talk) 22:48, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Books & Bytes – Issue 37Edit

  The Wikipedia Library

Books & Bytes
Issue 37, November – December 2019

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On behalf of The Wikipedia Library team --MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:10, 1 February 2020 (UTC)


Just checking through all the links you gave for Nils Melzer's views, I couldn't see if you'd linked to this printed interview. Just in case,The Truth About Julian Assange 3 February. Given Melzer's standing, that gives us just a glimmer of hope (which won't erase the monstrous damage done). Nishidani (talk) 10:35, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Yup, Finkelstein's blog post is a verbatim reproduction (also including most of the photos) of the "A murderous system is being created before our very eyes" interview in Republik which I link to above, along with a few comments and quotes. One small caveat: Finkelstein should have acknowledged the source of the interview, although I suppose one could argue that the final (German-language) paragraph serves that function, albeit only to a limited extent.
Thanks for reminding me, I'm thinking of printing out that interview and sending it to my MP - although he's a Tory (ultra-safe Tory seat, unfortunately), I can at least hope he has a conscience. And, well, conservatives are traditionally supposed to support the rule of law and so on... --NSH001 (talk) 19:51, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
P.S. I quite like the Melzer quote about "the light" from the Randy Credico podcast, also linked above. --NSH001 (talk) 20:01, 10 February 2020 (UTC)